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91
The Unholy Consult / Re: The Relation of Ishterebinth, Sranc and Dagliash
« Last post by Madness on May 26, 2021, 03:06:21 pm »
The Chorae Hoard was not part of the battle algebra last time. For whatever reason, the No-God's resumption causes the Whirlwind and the Mutilated could have accounted for Kellhus collecting the Chorae Hoard from Sakarpus and using it to break Golgotterath's Ward Walls.

The "first" time, the Whirlwind wasn't circulating most of the entire Chorae Hoard around the No-God.
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The Unholy Consult / Re: The Relation of Ishterebinth, Sranc and Dagliash
« Last post by SmilerLoki on May 26, 2021, 02:33:09 pm »
Ultimately we just can't know, we can only see if this is a sort of Chekov's Gun waiting to be used in some manner or other, or just a red herring.
Agreed, but my money are currently on the Dunyain being clever.
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The Unholy Consult / Re: The Relation of Ishterebinth, Sranc and Dagliash
« Last post by H on May 26, 2021, 02:31:34 pm »
And this is why I think that they didn't wait because there was nothing to wait for, meaning the Chorae are no longer needed and not just removed for the sake of a prospective Insertant.

It could be, but it could also be that they really did not fully understand why they were there, or discount the threat that Sorcery could ultimately pose to it.  They might well figure it doesn't matter, since most of the Sorcerers in the "known" world are now dead or dying.  What they don't (and likely could not) realize is that the Sorcery of Zeûm is really strong and that Meppa is not dead.

Ultimately we just can't know, we can only see if this is a sort of Chekov's Gun waiting to be used in some manner or other, or just a red herring.
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The Unholy Consult / Re: The Relation of Ishterebinth, Sranc and Dagliash
« Last post by SmilerLoki on May 26, 2021, 02:13:00 pm »
And this is why I think that they didn't wait because there was nothing to wait for, meaning the Chorae are no longer needed and not just removed for the sake of a prospective Insertant.
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The Unholy Consult / Re: The Relation of Ishterebinth, Sranc and Dagliash
« Last post by H on May 26, 2021, 02:06:37 pm »
It's actually Malowebi thinking it.

Oh, yeah, forgot who's perspective we are in there.


They aren't exactly in a hurry after the System is Resumed, nothing is threatening them by that point (the Ordeal is contained and its Aspect-Emperor is salt). And if there are significant technical issues with affixing the Chorae back on, I would be inclined to believe they are somehow part of the entire design and not just protection. Not that the No-God even needed it to begin with, too - while fully operational it's too high up to reach with Cants. This is why I think the Dunyain did something with the System, it's not exactly the same as it was before, so the removal of the Chorae isn't just a simple precaution, it's perhaps something more ominous.

Well, I mean, they likely shouldn't be, but they rush the Sarcophagus right back out there soon after.  We know the Ordeal could hardly do anything to them, but seemingly they are still worried about it and want the No-God to finish them, since they run it out there with little to no delay.  Should they have waited?  Probably, but either they were too eager, or after putting little Kel in, they can't really keep with totally under wraps.

Also they likely can't wait to try little Kel, since they need to know if he works as soon as possible, since there is a real chance that the rest of the kids are out there dead or dying.
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The Unholy Consult / Re: The Relation of Ishterebinth, Sranc and Dagliash
« Last post by SmilerLoki on May 26, 2021, 02:00:32 pm »
Well, I was slightly incorrect, it's Kellhus thinking this is why, not them saying it.
It's actually Malowebi thinking it.

In any case though, I am not sure why you think they'd have that time though.
They aren't exactly in a hurry after the System is Resumed, nothing is threatening them by that point (the Ordeal is contained and its Aspect-Emperor is salt). And if there are significant technical issues with affixing the Chorae back on, I would be inclined to believe they are somehow part of the entire design and not just protection. Not that the No-God even needed it to begin with, too - while fully operational it's too high up to reach with Cants. This is why I think the Dunyain did something with the System, it's not exactly the same as it was before, so the removal of the Chorae isn't just a simple precaution, it's perhaps something more ominous.
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The Unholy Consult / Re: The Relation of Ishterebinth, Sranc and Dagliash
« Last post by H on May 26, 2021, 01:47:37 pm »
I heavily dispute this reasoning. In this case, first, they had enough time to put the Chorae back on after ultimately going with Kelmomas. Second, it is absolutely unclear that the Chorae would even damage the Insertant, since the Carapace is thick enough to serve as protection - the Chorae are on the outside of it, while the Insertant is inside.

Well, I was slightly incorrect, it's Kellhus thinking this is why, not them saying it.  In any case though, I am not sure why you think they'd have that time though.  I mean, from our abstract, third person knowledge, we do know they likely have plenty of time, but they stuff little Kel in there post-haste, so they seemingly don't think they do.  We also have no idea how the Chorae are affixed though, so we don't know really how long it would take really.

It's easier for me to believe the Consult/Dunsult is ignorant of how to start the No-God than it is for me to believe they're just pretending to try to kill Kellhus to lure him in.  All the while ignoring any of his more accessible offspring or ishualian relations for 20 years.

Well, I think you are 100% correct, they do not know, they are just guessing.  But, I'd still contend that they (for whatever reason) consider it likely that Kellhus is the "right fit" or, at least, not the wrong fit.  In other words, since they have no real idea what makes it work, they are looking to try any and all ideas.  Which might explain why they take the Chorae off, in case Serwa needs to go in, or whoever else is left.  They also have no idea if the Chorae might kill the Insertant or not, so why risk it?

Speaking of the Dunyain all having Anasurimbor blood - I think Bakker is making an effort to counter this argument when he talks about the Twelve Germs (if memory serves), of which the Anasurimbor one is the most promising. Since the Germs are pointedly named as different from each other, I get the idea that the Dunyain in their generational selection quest were strict about keeping the lineages separated.

Yeah, I agree here very much.  I do not believe that all Dunyain are Anasurimbors.  In fact, I think it is very much the opposite case, that they were actively working toward isolating the lineage into that one germline.  Whether that is of some "mystical" importantance or a way of distilling out the distant Nonman relation, who knows though.
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The Unholy Consult / Re: The Relation of Ishterebinth, Sranc and Dagliash
« Last post by SmilerLoki on May 26, 2021, 01:27:25 pm »
Speaking of the Dunyain all having Anasurimbor blood - I think Bakker is making an effort to counter this argument when he talks about the Twelve Germs (if memory serves), of which the Anasurimbor one is the most promising. Since the Germs are pointedly named as different from each other, I get the idea that the Dunyain in their generational selection quest were strict about keeping the lineages separated.
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The Unholy Consult / Re: The Relation of Ishterebinth, Sranc and Dagliash
« Last post by The P on May 26, 2021, 12:47:11 pm »

But they did, it's why they took the Chorae off the Carapace.

They even say as much:
Quote
“And you think I’m the missing piece?” Kellhus asked. “The Subject that will revive this ... system?”

Was that why the Chorae had been removed from the Carapace? For him? It seemed to Malowebi that he strangled ...

The nearest of the disfigured Dûnyain, the burnt one, nodded. “The Celmomian Prophecy foretells your coming, Brother.”

Still not convinced.  I will try to put out my thoughts.  I'm erratic and in sore need of a reread.  If the Celmomian Prophesy is the basis for their "knowledge" of needing Kellhus as an insertant, they are making some intense cognitive leaps (which I guess maybe I can't be expected to understand, them being Dunyain and all).  All the prophesy says is an Anasurimbor will return at the end of the world.  I don't think there's any more to it, since we are shown the scene where Celmomas says it to Seswatha.  That's so vague, it could mean any of the many Anasurimbors running around, why decide on the most difficult to grab?  I take the disfigured's nod to be more saying, "well, here you are, so we're going to plug you in and see what happens."

If they really think the Anasurimbor lineage is the key to awakening the No-God, why aren't they plugging in one of their own?  Surely at least one of the disfigured has some Anasurimbor blood in them.  If they knew the original insertant, it seems logical they'd want to try another Anasurimbor, but did the Consult even know who the original insertant was?  My impression was Nau-Cayuti was just another faceless attempt in a long procession of souls (but it's been a while since I read that scene).

It's easier for me to believe the Consult/Dunsult is ignorant of how to start the No-God than it is for me to believe they're just pretending to try to kill Kellhus to lure him in.  All the while ignoring any of his more accessible offspring or ishualian relations for 20 years.
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The Unholy Consult / Re: The Relation of Ishterbinth, Sranc and Dagliash
« Last post by SmilerLoki on May 26, 2021, 09:04:17 am »
But they did, it's why they took the Chorae off the Carapace.
I heavily dispute this reasoning. In this case, first, they had enough time to put the Chorae back on after ultimately going with Kelmomas. Second, it is absolutely unclear that the Chorae would even damage the Insertant, since the Carapace is thick enough to serve as protection - the Chorae are on the outside of it, while the Insertant is inside.
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