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Messages - MisterGuyMan

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46
The Unholy Consult / Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ch. 1 & 2 Excerpts
« on: June 11, 2017, 09:25:12 pm »
Well that was aggravating.  Trying to read it on mobile is torture.  You only read every half page, giving just enough so you kinda follow but so little that it's more frustrating than anything else.

Good Find either way.  Finally going home to read this bad boy.  My faith in Kellhus is strengthened.  You doubters shall be exposed!

47
The Unholy Consult / Re: Book Review: The Unholy Consult
« on: June 09, 2017, 04:21:04 pm »
The wait in unbearable.  I literally just read the same two reviews every day.  -_-

Thanks for the review.

48
The Unholy Consult / Re: The Unholy Consult Giveaway
« on: May 31, 2017, 02:05:30 am »
Kellhus will put to rest all the doubters.  He's the messiah figure Earwa needs AND deserves.

I really need to win this.  June 2's my birthday so just spare me the trouble of spending $300 for an ARC on ebay please!

49
The Great Ordeal / Re: [TGO Spoilers]Kellhus, savior or not?
« on: September 20, 2016, 04:29:00 pm »
Bakker loves to invert common tropes or present them with such realism and complication that it seems a a gross caricature to the reader.  Kellhus is the prophesied chosen one that will save humanity from damnation.  I have no doubt he's still that basic archetypical trope.  Salvation in this instance might be completely inverted too though and I doubt this will be a traditional happy ending.

Count me as a Zauduyani.

50
The Great Ordeal / Re: Reading TTT, this passage stood out [TGO spoilers]
« on: September 20, 2016, 04:21:41 pm »
I don't have my copy on hand but IIRC Kellhus continues his speech by saying that the Thousandfold Thought outgrew the mind that concieved it and that Kellhus saw farther.  So Kellhus doesn't have to do anything differently than his Father up until the specific point where his Moe's intellect failed. 

Kellhus believed Moe's intellect would have inevitably led him to side with the Consult to avoid his own damnation.  I believe Kellhus sees farther so he will precede damnation altogether and become the Solitary God.  Barring that he sees a third option apart from the two either/or binary options that we've been given thus far, in other words, Either let humans be damned in the afterlife or kill all humans so Hell disappears.

The Bejunka metaphor is too pervasive to not foreshadow such a move.  A move that will change all further moves.  That's Kellhus' play and he's the only one that saw it.

51
The Great Ordeal / Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Inchoroi Weaponry
« on: August 29, 2016, 12:23:25 am »
The humans never gained any initiative because they were not allowed to.  They were constantly under attack by the No-God.  It's worth noting that the No-God was kept back from the front lines until Megedda because the enemy was so strong at Megedda that the No-God had to put in an appearance.  Offence was the correct strategy.  Break the human nations one by one, before they unify.  At Megedda the combined remnants of the North and South was strong enough to compel the No-God to take the field.  To allow them to combine while the North was full of Nosirai and not ruins would have resulted in absolute disaster.
Humanity was well past the point of no return when the Battle of Mengedda occurred.  I forget where this was mentioned but in the Dreams the only victory they could hope to attain was to take as many of their foe with them before they all died.  It was, for all intents and purposes a last Stand and everyone knew it.  ,Even with an unlikely victory at Mengedda, humanity is still in the same bad position.  They'd have still lost all its most powerful nations and it would just be a few months to replenish the Sranc.  If humanity couldn't gain any ground against the Consult with all its great nations intact, then a stalemate is the best they could hope for and even that would be a long shot.  IIRC the great legends of the Apocalypse seem to be of fortresses standing or halting the Consult advance even temporarily.  Taking the No-God out for that last glorious battle honestly made no sense.

52
The Great Ordeal / Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Inchoroi Weaponry
« on: August 29, 2016, 12:00:04 am »
I think there's one more big reveal for how the Consult is trying shut out the world.  If all they wanted to do was kill everyone then they could have just waited inside the Ark and let the No-God let humanity die of old age and stillborn babies.

And let humans unite with Nonmen, gather their numbers and strength, and beseige the Ark?  Not a good plan until you've broken human civilization's capacity to resist.   That giant horde of wild Sranc has to be harnessed and directed by the No-God to do that.  Remember the Sranc aren't nearly as numerous because the North is still full of human nations and there are fewer Erratics and more Nonman Mansions standing.  The No-God guarantees eventual victory, but you need all those Sranc, Bashrags, and Wracu to prevent humans and Nonmen from kicking the Consults ass in the here and now.
Even as a worst case scenario, the Consult can't really lose so long as the No-God is kept safe.  The humans never regained any sense of initiative in the first Apocalypse.  The Consult could have just settled for a stalemate and they'd have won.  The No-God has no business fighting in actual battles so I think we're missing something if the No God.

53
The Great Ordeal / Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Inchoroi Weaponry
« on: August 28, 2016, 10:20:53 pm »
I think there's one more big reveal for how the Consult is trying shut out the world.  If all they wanted to do was kill everyone then they could have just waited inside the Ark and let the No-God let humanity die of old age and stillborn babies.

54
I really have no idea what the hell is going on at this point, but I've gotta ask the Zaudunyani here: What does saving the world/humanity even mean?

As far as I can see the Consult has the only real plan.
To me, saving the world just means his plan and vision is more preferable to humanity than the Consult's plan of killing everyone and resurrecting the No-God.  So even if humanity is mauled, the race is still saved from the extinction that would have happened otherwise.

I believe that this might not even be Kellhus' main goal.  His ultimate goal is to be a self moving soul and as a side effect, humanity will be saved.  I'm starting to think this is one long setup for a bootstrap paradox.  Kellhus will eventually reach a point where he can reach back into the past and condition his own ground.  This plan of action just happens to neutralize the Gods and the Consult.  Working backwards I figure that the design of Kellhus as a character is to be the savior of mankind but to fill that role with such obvious immorality that the reader would barely be able to recognize even this obvious fantasy trope.   I love how Bakker twists tropes like that.

55
Quote from: The Warrior Prophet, Battle of Mengedda
By the God, his fury felt so empty, so frail against the eart!  He reached out with his bare left hand and grabbed another hand-cold, heavily callused, leathery fingers and glass nails.  A dead hand.  He looked up across the matted grasses and stared at the dead man's face.  An Inrithi.  The features were flattened against the ground and partly sheathed in blood.  The man had lost his helm, and sandy-blond hair jutted from his mail hood.  The coid had fallen aside, pressed against his bottom lip.  He seemed so heavy, so stationary-like more ground.

A nightmarish moment of recognition, too surreal to be terrifying.

It was his face!  His own hand he held!

He tried to scream.

Nothing.

Quote from: The Great Ordeal, Battle of Dagliash
And he knew the way all the Dead knew, with the certainty of timeless recollection.

Hell... rising on a bubbling rush.  Agony and wickedness chattering with famished glee...

Demons, come to pull his outside through his inside, to invert, to invert and expose, to bare his every tenderness to fire and gnashing teeth...

Damnation... in spite of everything.

There was no describing the horror.

He tried to clutch with dead fingers... to hold on...

Don't!  he tried to call across the space of a dead man's reach.  But his ribs were a breathless cage, his lips cold and soil.  Don't let go...

Please!  he screaned at his younger self, trying to communicate the whole of his life with sightless eyes... Fool!  Ingrate!

Don't trust Hi--

First of all let me say that I totally missed this on my first read.  I only caught it when I went back rereading the first trilogy.  Second, it's pretty much one of the best moments in the novel for me now.  We already suspect this happens ever since Kellhus states that Serwe is burning in hell but that POV of actually seeing Saubon transition into hell after his death was just a great moment.  I really love how I always thought that excerpt of Saubon seeing himself in the second book was just a way to add creepiness into the battle in a very general way but Bakker had it all planned out to bring it full circle three books later.

I have no idea what to think of this so far.  From the top of my head it's weird because it always seemed like only the gods could affect the past but here a random soul is literally reaching out to his past self.  I know Mengedda is a special place as a Topos but it still seems odd that random souls have that power.  I also like how the very highwater moment that Saubon's faith in Kellhus is cemented is looped inextricably linked to the moment when he loses his faith completely.

As a Zauduyani myself I don't think this shakes my belief in Kellhus at all.  He's still the messiah figure of the story.  He uses people as tools and doesn't care if they end up in hell.  He'll still save humanity IMO.

56
The Great Ordeal / [TGO Spoilers] Moënghus' capture by Sranc
« on: July 27, 2016, 04:24:40 pm »
Quote
"He'd counted only sixteen summers the year his cousin Okyati had ridden into camp with Anasûrimbor Moënghus.  Okyati and his war party had taken the man from a band of Srance travelling across Suskara.  This in itself was enough to make the outlander an item of interest: few men survived such captivity. "

The first few times I read the book I never really gave it much thought.  But as we are exposed more and more to the Sranc the weirder it seems that Moënghus, Dunyain or not, would be walking around as a prisoner of the Sranc.  The impulses of the Sranc, as portrayed in 'The Judging Eye' and 'The Great Ordeal,' seem beyond merely unreasonable but almost elemental.  In the Great Ordeal one very smart individual stated that where the Dunyain reach for infinity the Sranc embrace zero.  They ARE their impulses.  How a Dunyain would be able to manipulate the darkness that comes before for a creature like the Srance, who simply were the darkness completely makes no sense to me.  Even if he could do so, the shortest path would seem to be to just kill them and be done with it entirely.  I'm starting to think that this was an early mistake of Bakker before he fully fleshed out how obscene the Sranc were.


57
So being a women makes you less than what a man is, that's subjective? The path to that is subjective? Right and wrong is written in to the "rules" of Earwa, there is no path to it.

ETA: what I'm saying is being born a woman isn't a choice and yet they are morally inferior to men.
To continue that analogy Women and Men start off with different paths available to them.  Women can travel paths that lead to palaces of salvation.  Men can travel paths that lead to BIG ASS palaces of salvation.  I don't think gender not being a choice has to be a factor at all.

These are not my opinions. Bakker has said that he wanted to create a world were morality is objective. The beliefs of men do not matter. He literally says this in answering my question. Then he gives us a plot device which literally shows the morality of things. And this plot device tells us the women are lesser souls than men. The JE is his vehicle to show us the morality of individual things on Earwa, it's why I believe it. Now, can this change? Sure. I hope it does. Maybe something that Kellhus or Mimara does will change this, I don't know.
This is really why I believe this is all a semantic argument.  In our world, morality is defined as an issue of right and wrong.  That's by definition also subjective.  Bakker defines morality as an objective truth and uses the Judging Eye as a plot device to elaborate with the issue.  So since these two definitions of morality conflict we have to use analysis to see what the differences are.  As you said, the Judging Eye is the plot device that elaborates Earwa's objective morality.  Here are the relevant facts as I know them:
• The Judging Eye sees from the vantage of the gods
• The Judging Eye identifies evil as damned and righteousness as glory
• damnation/salvation can apparently be closed or conditioned otherwise

As a modern person talking to other modern people I'd like to be able to use the modern definition of morality in this discussion.  However since Bakker did make an alternate definition, we shouldn't ignore it just make the differentiation.  So having said that, in my own analysis, the only objective difference between the two seems to be the objective role of damnation and salvation.  I believe that on Earwa that's what morality means and it makes sense.  Attaining salvation is moral.  Attaining Damnation is immoral.  For us modern folk, who stand outside those beliefs, we can still judge those actions based on our own sense of morality.  I find it more than moral, righteous even, to be a Mandate Schoolman, and suffer eternal damnation just to save the world. 

So it's not that Bakker is wrong or I want to dismiss his definition.  I just want to make the distinction because Earwa's definition of the word and ours so use damnation/salvation to refer to the two sides of the coin that is morality in Earwa.  This frees up the word itself for its modern definition.

58
I would like to make the distinction here of what morality actually means.  If we are to have a discussion on morality then it would be a good idea to define what these terms mean.  In our world morality is a simple concept of right vs wrong.  That's specifically a subjective argument.  In Earwa, the only difference is that their world has an objectively defined system of salvation/damnation.  By definition, saying that morality is objective in Earwa, means that their concept of the term is inherently incompatible with ours.  So the technical details matter, the semantics (insert sorcery reference here).  So I propose that instead of discussing morality, which isn't defined in a way that is compatible with how the term is used in our world, the discussion is actually more about damnation and salvation which has multiple explanations and is distinct enogh for us to speak about seperately.  I make the distinction to morality in general, which is subjective, to the various moral paths one can take, which objectively lead to salvation or damnation.  The Choice itself is subjective.  The destination your choice leads to is objective.  Hopefully I explained that coherently.

Even on a technical level the subjective/objective divide doesn't preclude nuance.  Obama is objectively President of the United States.  That's an objective truth.  He is, subjectively, the best candidate for the job based on a popular vote.  His Presidency is also not immutable since this year he will step down as President.  I view morality in Earwa like that.  There is an objective morality that leads to salvation or damnation.  This morality is completely based off the subjective perceptions of the gods.  Conversely, given the right circumstances, this objective moral path to salvation can be overturned.


59
Damnation is objective but malleable.  Morality is subjective.  The JE equates the two but there is a difference.  Inrau is undeniably damned for example but he morally, at least for most of our standards, hasn't done anything wrong.  The Judging Eye is described as the ability to see from the God's vantage.  Seeing from a single vantage more than implies the existence of other vantage points.  That's proof morality is subjective.  By contrast, Akka's soul will be feasted on by Demons.  That's an objective truth.

So Damnation is objectively defined but not necessarily immutable.  The gods are just big Ciphrang.  Ciphrang are just hunger manifest.  Normal humans can become ciphrang and even the goods walked the planet.  Presumably if Kellhus ever becomes strong enough to get these gods to toe the company line, then damnation will be defined differently too.

I'd also like to add that the gods don't see time linearly.  I suspect that this infuses the Judging  Eye's perspective.  It sees Akka is dambed because from the gods' perspective, they're already munching on his soul.  The JE views the objective fact that he's damned and, right this moment, Akka's soul is being eaten by Demons.

60
The Great Ordeal / Re: [TGO Spoilers] Overall thoughts on the book?
« on: July 23, 2016, 05:51:16 pm »
I thought it was a great book and the best of the middle series so far.  Judging Eye was the weakest but it was mostly setting up the Bejunka pieces so that's understandable.  Judging Eye was good but it still seemed like the pieces were travelling to their respective plot points.  There was definite sense of buildup though and it left me wanting more.  The Great Ordeal though finally let each of the main plot threads reach satisfactory resolutions.  All that buildup from the last two books found some release and I couldn't get enough.

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