The Second Apocalypse
Earwa => The Aspect-Emperor => The Unholy Consult => Topic started by: Walter on July 11, 2017, 04:15:24 pm
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Obviously, the end of TUC leaves us the world in a terrible bind. Do you think we pick up right where we leave off, or do you think we pick up a few years down the road?
[EDIT Madness: Rearranged Subject]
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I think there would be a jump, because my feeling is that Crabicus and Akka Jr. would be important...
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Crabicus is the same age of Kelmomas, no? I would say pick up right where TUC left. I would really like to see the Shock on the characters and the beginning of the Apocalypse.
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I pretty torn between the options.
I want Akka junior to be of importance, and the other children.
Then again, I want to see the Saga's rehashed, with Akka playing Seswatha with Zeum.
It could go so many directions!
Best case for me might be a timeskip, but we get a dozen great Atrocity tales about the beginning of the Second Apocalypse.
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Crabicus is the same age of Kelmomas, no? I would say pick up right where TUC left. I would really like to see the Shock on the characters and the beginning of the Apocalypse.
I'd like that too, but it just doesn't seem probable to me...
If so, then how long does the "series" span? A year, total? Maybe two?
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Crabicus is the same age of Kelmomas, no? I would say pick up right where TUC left. I would really like to see the Shock on the characters and the beginning of the Apocalypse.
It can always be a combination, the main storyline taking place some years later with flashbacks (in whatever form) to fill in the beginning. It depends on the amount of books...
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1) We don't pick up at all. Witn accordance to my under-nick-title, I'm quite happy about this ending. World is shut, everything is ok. Why wish for more? Nopeity-nope.
2) We pick up thousands of years later. Like a sequel about space refugees from Earwa, who suffer semantic apocalypse and dissapear in favour of the sentient space ship resembling the-Arc-before-the-Fall.
3) We pick up thousands of years earlier. For Apocalypse in unceasing and cannot be cut in two.
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1) We don't pick up at all. Witn accordance to my under-nick-title, I'm quite happy about this ending. World is shut, everything is ok. Why wish for more? Nopeity-nope.
This is great. I wish the world was more like you :) .
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One issue with not seeing what happens after is that it would really leave us asking, what was the whole point of Mimara's existence in the books?
Because she basically does nothing of any real consequence, besides banishing the Wight....
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One issue with not seeing what happens after is that it would really leave us asking, what was the whole point of Mimara's existence in the books?
Because she basically does nothing of any real consequence, besides banishing the Wight....
Plenty of loose ends that don't fulfill any purpose for being in the story, I'd agree.
Mimara and TJE definitely - just becomes a handy world-building tool that is poorly utilized.
Zeum, the Ciphrang-head, etc.
Mimara/Akka's twins
And tons of unanswered world-building type questions that, left the way they are, make the world seem shallow - like all the obfuscation was to disguise how little things are really fleshed out. The hope of more books allows me to continue the illusion. I don't think "like Malazan, except with more questions and fewer answers" will help with sales much lol.
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I'd go a step further and say the entire Mimara/Achiaman arc, no matter how interesting and well-crafted, added nothing to the events that took place at Golgotterath or The Great Ordeal. They didn't find the Heron Spear, Achiaman never found any significance to his altered dreams (maybe we will in re-reads), he doesn't give any valuable information to Kellhus ("btw, your grandson from Ishual is alive"). They did find out that Ishûal had been conquered but Kellhus already knew that. Mimara never sees Kellhus with the Judging Eye. Her baby is born, it has a stillborn twin, and "all prophecies must be respected", but it dead-ends after the baby is born.The tiniest bit of measurable impact was that the Witch daughter stole their cocaine after getting blasted with the Heron Spear v.2, and she used that to fight the wracu in the Intrinsic Gate but that too never lead anywhere (except work as a reason why Kellhus was alone?).
Kelmomas/Esmenet at least had an impact, and I'm far more looking forward to re-reading their chapters.
I'm getting the sinking feeling that there is a lot of set-up for the next series. Kauytas, Crabicus, Mimara's child, witch-daughter-that-I-can't-name are basically the next book's POVs I think. Not that there's anything wrong with building on this series, but it does mean that we spent a lot of time reading about things that ultimately had almost no significance to the second apocalypse.
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I guess... I never really saw Akka/Mimara's arc as having much to do with Golgotterath and/or the Ordeal. Their arc is much more about their internal states, its payoff is in Mimara's reaction to Esmenet, and Akka's to Proyus.
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I guess... I never really saw Akka/Mimara's arc as having much to do with Golgotterath and/or the Ordeal. Their arc is much more about their internal states, its payoff is in Mimara's reaction to Esmenet, and Akka's to Proyus.
Yeah, as a personal affair/journey, it yields powerful dividends at the end, and I enjoyed it tbh.
Heavenfall, I think you might be being a bit too harsh. I think the simplest explination for Akka/Mimara is world building - there story was important for understanding the larger Earwa world as a whole. Without them, you pretty much just have a 'normal' swords and sandals fantasy / war narrative. TSA loses its interest if you isolate and remove all the extra stuff that happens beyond the scope of major events.
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Well, when you think about it, pretty much every storyline except Kellhus's own have led to a dead end.
Sorweel, Serwa, the Nonmen and Yatwer? Right, Sorweel and Serwa's character growth did not serve any purpose as both of them (or maybe only one) got killed before truly having an effect on the events. They did make the last Nonmen defect to the Great Ordeal's side, and march to the battle, but well, that didn't really have an impact on the ending, did it?
Esmenet and Kelmomas - this storyline had an obvious impact by Kelmomas's involvement in the Inverse Fire room, but you have to ask if three books' worth of content about Momemn (I really have no idea how to pronounce the name of any place in this universe) politics, Yatwer cult and the Fanim attack were neccessary to that conclusion.
Achamian and Mimara? No effect so far whatsoever, save for Mimara using the Judging Eye on Kellhus/No-God at the end (assuming it did have an effect on what was actually happening, at that point). Again, you have to ask yourself if three books of Skin Eaters, Cleric and Ishual were neccessary for that conclusion.
Cnaiür and his Junior? No effect so far, but this one ended on a cliffhanger.
Proyas and the Great Ordeal? Seeing that the Great Ordeal did not actually contribute to the ending, and instead merely served as meatshields while Kellhus was having a civil conversation with his Dunyain brothers, I'll say this one didn't really have an effect either. Someone around these parts raised the point that, there seemed to be no argument against Kellhus just magically going to Golgotterath and doing what he was supposed to do, without involving the Great Ordeal.
But I expect these storylines, as ineffectual as they were to the finale of TUC, to have impacts for the next series. Mimara's something of a prophet that may influence the world; she and Achamian have discovered what appears to be the last remaining full blooded Dunyain who hasn't gone over to the Consult (that one is, I think, one of the most obvious plot points to be followed), Esmenet storyline has left off Three Seas in a state of civil war, definitely unready for an invasion, while the death of the Great Ordeal wipes out the greatest army men were capable of producing. Sadly, I can't see my favourite storyline, Ishterebinth, having any influence. Maybe the death of the Nonmen will mean something.
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Well, when you think about it, pretty much every storyline except Kellhus's own have led to a dead end.
Agreed. But TSA would be a trash story if we just followed Kellhus as the main character from TDTCB through TUC. All the other stories have a point, not that I understand them, but I do know they add a lot to the story. Without them the entire thing might as well be a Glossary with pages of text defining each thing - which isn't a story at all.
But I expect these storylines, as ineffectual as they were to the finale of TUC, to have impacts for the next series. Mimara's something of a prophet that may influence the world; she and Achamian have discovered what appears to be the last remaining full blooded Dunyain who hasn't gone over to the Consult (that one is, I think, one of the most obvious plot points to be followed), Esmenet storyline has left off Three Seas in a state of civil war, definitely unready for an invasion, while the death of the Great Ordeal wipes out the greatest army men were capable of producing. Sadly, I can't see my favourite storyline, Ishterebinth, having any influence. Maybe the death of the Nonmen will mean something.
That's really the hope, but imo a terrible choice by Bakker. A lot of the interest of TSA hangs on future books and future explanations, and people will get tired of it. I've been saying it for some time now, but I think Bakker will be more popular once everything is released. This waiting years between books isn't doing anything good for his sales, and unfortunately he might never get that chance as once these things are gathering dust on ethereal cloud servers, no one will see them anyway ;) .
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Well, when you think about it, pretty much every storyline except Kellhus's own have led to a dead end.
Agreed. But TSA would be a trash story if we just followed Kellhus as the main character from TDTCB through TUC. All the other stories have a point, not that I understand them, but I do know they add a lot to the story. Without them the entire thing might as well be a Glossary with pages of text defining each thing - which isn't a story at all.
But I expect these storylines, as ineffectual as they were to the finale of TUC, to have impacts for the next series. Mimara's something of a prophet that may influence the world; she and Achamian have discovered what appears to be the last remaining full blooded Dunyain who hasn't gone over to the Consult (that one is, I think, one of the most obvious plot points to be followed), Esmenet storyline has left off Three Seas in a state of civil war, definitely unready for an invasion, while the death of the Great Ordeal wipes out the greatest army men were capable of producing. Sadly, I can't see my favourite storyline, Ishterebinth, having any influence. Maybe the death of the Nonmen will mean something.
That's really the hope, but imo a terrible choice by Bakker. A lot of the interest of TSA hangs on future books and future explanations, and people will get tired of it. I've been saying it for some time now, but I think Bakker will be more popular once everything is released. This waiting years between books isn't doing anything good for his sales, and unfortunately he might never get that chance as once these things are gathering dust on ethereal cloud servers, no one will see them anyway ;) .
I agree; for example, I have no plans to re-read the last book until the next one is out, because I'm not certain if it's worth it (you can say that I was disappointed a bit, with this one). It might read perfectly as a part of a chain, but on its own, it yields no conclusion whatsoever and pretty much wipes out the characters I like. I did come into this series pretty late (The Great Ordeal was being written, by then), so perhaps the older books had the same problem and I never noticed it, as I read them back to back.
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Well, when you think about it, pretty much every storyline except Kellhus's own have led to a dead end.
Well, Oinaral warns that the No-God is the eschaton...he wasn't joking.
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I loved the world-building and the individual journeys that everyone other-than-Kellhus were on, but at the same time it still annoys me that they were not important at all. The Prince of Nothing series at least had an incredible solution where all strands of story were collected and unified to form a truly awesome moment. As much as insignificant main characters can have their own pivotal moments I still expect them to matter to the larger story.
In a way I'm reminded of the movie "No country for old men" where the story arcs are purposefully disjointed at the end (the veteran cop never finds the bad guy). But there we have an almost fourth-wall-breaking moment where one character grudgingly admits to just being confused and feeling disconnected from the world at large. It becomes a commentary on how the world doesn't necessarily adapt to the evolution of the story. I didn't get that feeling here.
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@Cuttlefish:
I don't...uh, share your idea of how *meaning* works. It's like saying that Moria has no meaning, because the party gets through it. Why not just have Gandalf wander away? It all is leading up to a plan that Frodo abandons anyway!
Like, WLW is the title character of a book. He kills Maithanet. His existence lets the reader get the POV of a destined character, foreshadows Sorweel's transformation, etc. Definitely a big deal. But I can use the same logic you use on a bunch of other arcs to argue that he doesn't 'matter' either.
After all, everything he did was in a city that got hit with an earthquake. Womp womp.
Captain doesn't matter, because Galian killed him. Galian doesn't matter, because Mimara killed him. Mimara doesn't matter because she didn't, I guess, kill Kellhus?
The point I'm trying to make is that the way you use whether or not characters 'dead end/serve any purpose' feels super reductive. Like, does Proyas 'matter'? On the one hand, obviously yes. His loss of faith, struggles, victimization, betrayal, rescue, execution...are given dozens of pages. On the other, lol nope! His life's work was delivering an army that was defeated.
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I loved the world-building and the individual journeys that everyone other-than-Kellhus were on, but at the same time it still annoys me that they were not important at all. The Prince of Nothing series at least had an incredible solution where all strands of story were collected and unified to form a truly awesome moment. As much as insignificant main characters can have their own pivotal moments I still expect them to matter to the larger story.
In a way I'm reminded of the movie "No country for old men" where the story arcs are purposefully disjointed at the end (the veteran cop never finds the bad guy). But there we have an almost fourth-wall-breaking moment where one character grudgingly admits to just being confused and feeling disconnected from the world at large. It becomes a commentary on how the world doesn't necessarily adapt to the evolution of the story. I didn't get that feeling here.
We're on the same page. PoN seemed to make better use of its narrative arcs with an explosion of convergence both in each book and through to the end and final scene. TUC suffers from not having that same kind of coherence - little is done to make it all fit together in a satisfying way - at least compared to TTT.
I still loved TUC and I think it ended exactly as the story demanded, but there could have been better execution. Besides, I'm bias as well, been playing in this game too long to make objective judgments.
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@Cuttlefish:
I don't...uh, share your idea of how *meaning* works. It's like saying that Moria has no meaning, because the party gets through it. Why not just have Gandalf wander away? It all is leading up to a plan that Frodo abandons anyway!
That's a poor example, though. Moria and the loss of Gandalf triggers the beginning of the Fellowship's division, and all said and done, the whole thing escalates into a point where all the storylines converge on the same point, which is, as I recall, the Black Gates and Mordor.
They could've always just used the eagles, though...
Like, WLW is the title character of a book. He kills Maithanet. His existence lets the reader get the POV of a destined character, foreshadows Sorweel's transformation, etc.
Neither of those things actually have any consequence for this book's conclusion, though.
Captain doesn't matter, because Galian killed him. Galian doesn't matter, because Mimara killed him. Mimara doesn't matter because she didn't, I guess, kill Kellhus?
Well, Mimara might have mattered, but that's another thing - she doesn't matter because of her personal journey, the ways in which her character grew and changed. She matters because she has the Judging Eye, something she had from the very beginning (at least I think so? Definitely after she seduced Achamian). Do you think anything about TUC's conclusion would have changed, had Mimara just straight went to Kellhus from after meeting Achamian for the first time, and did what she did at the end of the book? Again, I do hope that her storyline will yield consequences for the next series, but so far, the Judging Eye has been a gimmick (that I am not fond of) and she hasn't been influential at all.
The point I'm trying to make is that the way you use whether or not characters 'dead end/serve any purpose' feels super reductive. Like, does Proyas 'matter'? On the one hand, obviously yes. His loss of faith, struggles, victimization, betrayal, rescue, execution...are given dozens of pages. On the other, lol nope! His life's work was delivering an army that was defeated.
Don't get me wrong, I am not saying putting up this whole consequence debate as a means to discredit the storylines, some have been really worth the read for the journey alone (as I said, the Ishterebinth storyline, arguably the least effective one, was my favourite), but when you put it down to its bare... yeah, that's pretty much it. Proyas hasn't influenced the ending, and what little influence the Great Ordeal had was either negligible or understated.
Think of it in Star Wars terms; the last movie - the confrontation Luke has with his father and the Emperor has virtually no consequence for the victory over the Empire. That doesn't make it any less enjoyable, but in my opinion, that is a narrative weakness.
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I loved the world-building and the individual journeys that everyone other-than-Kellhus were on, but at the same time it still annoys me that they were not important at all. The Prince of Nothing series at least had an incredible solution where all strands of story were collected and unified to form a truly awesome moment. As much as insignificant main characters can have their own pivotal moments I still expect them to matter to the larger story.
In a way I'm reminded of the movie "No country for old men" where the story arcs are purposefully disjointed at the end (the veteran cop never finds the bad guy). But there we have an almost fourth-wall-breaking moment where one character grudgingly admits to just being confused and feeling disconnected from the world at large. It becomes a commentary on how the world doesn't necessarily adapt to the evolution of the story. I didn't get that feeling here.
We're on the same page. PoN seemed to make better use of its narrative arcs with an explosion of convergence both in each book and through to the end and final scene. TUC suffers from not having that same kind of coherence - little is done to make it all fit together in a satisfying way - at least compared to TTT.
I still loved TUC and I think it ended exactly as the story demanded, but there could have been better execution. Besides, I'm bias as well, been playing in this game too long to make objective judgments.
Wasn't that Bakker's point from the beginning? The anti-trope fantasy epic? There is no satisfying end. Nothing is wrapped up neatly. It's the anti-LotR. Everything just falls apart.
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I loved the world-building and the individual journeys that everyone other-than-Kellhus were on, but at the same time it still annoys me that they were not important at all. The Prince of Nothing series at least had an incredible solution where all strands of story were collected and unified to form a truly awesome moment. As much as insignificant main characters can have their own pivotal moments I still expect them to matter to the larger story.
In a way I'm reminded of the movie "No country for old men" where the story arcs are purposefully disjointed at the end (the veteran cop never finds the bad guy). But there we have an almost fourth-wall-breaking moment where one character grudgingly admits to just being confused and feeling disconnected from the world at large. It becomes a commentary on how the world doesn't necessarily adapt to the evolution of the story. I didn't get that feeling here.
We're on the same page. PoN seemed to make better use of its narrative arcs with an explosion of convergence both in each book and through to the end and final scene. TUC suffers from not having that same kind of coherence - little is done to make it all fit together in a satisfying way - at least compared to TTT.
I still loved TUC and I think it ended exactly as the story demanded, but there could have been better execution. Besides, I'm bias as well, been playing in this game too long to make objective judgments.
Wasn't that Bakker's point from the beginning? The anti-trope fantasy epic? There is no satisfying end. Nothing is wrapped up neatly. It's the anti-LotR. Everything just falls apart.
That certainly seems to be the case.
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Wasn't that Bakker's point from the beginning? The anti-trope fantasy epic? There is no satisfying end. Nothing is wrapped up neatly. It's the anti-LotR. Everything just falls apart.
That certainly seems to be the case.
Cormac McCarthy brand fantasy.
Damn, makes me wish I had some sort of writing talent...
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I loved the world-building and the individual journeys that everyone other-than-Kellhus were on, but at the same time it still annoys me that they were not important at all. The Prince of Nothing series at least had an incredible solution where all strands of story were collected and unified to form a truly awesome moment. As much as insignificant main characters can have their own pivotal moments I still expect them to matter to the larger story.
In a way I'm reminded of the movie "No country for old men" where the story arcs are purposefully disjointed at the end (the veteran cop never finds the bad guy). But there we have an almost fourth-wall-breaking moment where one character grudgingly admits to just being confused and feeling disconnected from the world at large. It becomes a commentary on how the world doesn't necessarily adapt to the evolution of the story. I didn't get that feeling here.
We're on the same page. PoN seemed to make better use of its narrative arcs with an explosion of convergence both in each book and through to the end and final scene. TUC suffers from not having that same kind of coherence - little is done to make it all fit together in a satisfying way - at least compared to TTT.
I still loved TUC and I think it ended exactly as the story demanded, but there could have been better execution. Besides, I'm bias as well, been playing in this game too long to make objective judgments.
Wasn't that Bakker's point from the beginning? The anti-trope fantasy epic? There is no satisfying end. Nothing is wrapped up neatly. It's the anti-LotR. Everything just falls apart.
That certainly seems to be the case.
That sounds like more of an excuse than anything else.
Yes, that is the point, but telling a story poorly was not. That was still the point in PoN right? And if you ask me, that story ended up better than TAE.
Also, how deep do you want to go with that? Lets start down at the bottom of the rabbit hole instead of taking each step: Why write a story at all? The most anti-story would be no story at all.
If you're going to tell a story, tell it well.
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That sounds like more of an excuse than anything else.
Yes, that is the point, but telling a story poorly was not. That was still the point in PoN right? And if you ask me, that story ended up better than TAE.
Also, how deep do you want to go with that? Lets start down at the bottom of the rabbit hole instead of taking each step: Why write a story at all? The most anti-story would be no story at all.
If you're going to tell a story, tell it well.
Well, taken as a whole, I think the story of TAE is that perceptual (and possibly conceptual) horizons, and therefor blind-spots, will get you killed, regardless of your "power-level."
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Wasn't that Bakker's point from the beginning? The anti-trope fantasy epic? There is no satisfying end. Nothing is wrapped up neatly. It's the anti-LotR. Everything just falls apart.
Ah... So it's bad on purpose? :P
Just kidding. I think the story picks up some decades after the end of TUC. Remember that Bakker said a long time ago that TUC is the book that ends the arcs of all characters introduced in PoN. That means that, presumably, Achamian should have died of old age after preparing people for the No-God somehow, Esmenet dies of old age too, Mimara is either dead or a very old woman. The main characters are Mimara's son, Moënghus, Crabhand, etc who have all grown up.
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"That sounds like more of an excuse than anything else."
I don't know what to say about this. Like, what excuse? When the author make it? What would be the truth that he was trying to excuse?
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I loved the world-building and the individual journeys that everyone other-than-Kellhus were on, but at the same time it still annoys me that they were not important at all. The Prince of Nothing series at least had an incredible solution where all strands of story were collected and unified to form a truly awesome moment. As much as insignificant main characters can have their own pivotal moments I still expect them to matter to the larger story.
In a way I'm reminded of the movie "No country for old men" where the story arcs are purposefully disjointed at the end (the veteran cop never finds the bad guy). But there we have an almost fourth-wall-breaking moment where one character grudgingly admits to just being confused and feeling disconnected from the world at large. It becomes a commentary on how the world doesn't necessarily adapt to the evolution of the story. I didn't get that feeling here.
We're on the same page. PoN seemed to make better use of its narrative arcs with an explosion of convergence both in each book and through to the end and final scene. TUC suffers from not having that same kind of coherence - little is done to make it all fit together in a satisfying way - at least compared to TTT.
I still loved TUC and I think it ended exactly as the story demanded, but there could have been better execution. Besides, I'm bias as well, been playing in this game too long to make objective judgments.
Wasn't that Bakker's point from the beginning? The anti-trope fantasy epic? There is no satisfying end. Nothing is wrapped up neatly. It's the anti-LotR. Everything just falls apart.
That certainly seems to be the case.
That sounds like more of an excuse than anything else.
Yes, that is the point, but telling a story poorly was not. That was still the point in PoN right? And if you ask me, that story ended up better than TAE.
Also, how deep do you want to go with that? Lets start down at the bottom of the rabbit hole instead of taking each step: Why write a story at all? The most anti-story would be no story at all.
If you're going to tell a story, tell it well.
Fair enough Wilshire. I think the point of an anti-story is not so much in ultimately not writing it, but rather reacting to said fantasy tropes.
While I sympathize with the worries that TUC wrought, I can also say that I felt the power of fiction, of storytelling coming through loud and clear. Thinking and feeling while reading it: 'wow, that language can *do* this...' I'd rather read something like this, with a ton of ambition, while not perfect, than standard rehearsals of tropes or timid ones.
Besides the execution, there is something here, I mean the unnamed 3rd series. I can imagine that this anti-story or anti-trope did bring Bakker to a place where a vital question arose:
Whither humanity?
Which could mean an exploration of the search for meaning in a seemingly hostile universe, an 'enhanced' version of our own predicament. That's my wish for the continuation of this saga.
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If you read bakker's other stuff, admittedly I can't handle his nonfiction, he seems to be always pressing upon the same points. I think that his fiction is mostly used as and exposé for his philosophy, and I think it does a marvelous job making clear what TPB makes entirely unapproachable. I'm hoping for a short afterward essay when TDTSNBN concludes, explaining how it all ties together (much like at the end of his short story Crash Space).
Fair enough Wilshire. I think the point of an anti-story is not so much in ultimately not writing it, but rather reacting to said fantasy tropes.
While I sympathize with the worries that TUC wrought, I can also say that I felt the power of fiction, of storytelling coming through loud and clear. Thinking and feeling while reading it: 'wow, that language can *do* this...' I'd rather read something like this, with a ton of ambition, while not perfect, than standard rehearsals of tropes or timid ones.
Besides the execution, there is something here, I mean the unnamed 3rd series. I can imagine that this anti-story or anti-trope did bring Bakker to a place where a vital question arose:
Whither humanity?
Which could mean an exploration of the search for meaning in a seemingly hostile universe, an 'enhanced' version of our own predicament. That's my wish for the continuation of this saga.
Don't get me wrong, something about TSA and the story we've got is compelling and glorious. TUC was a great book by itself as-is.
Many of these complaints, I think, stem from Bakker's own idiosyncrasies - like spending 20 years implying TUC was the end when really its at best 2/3s of the way there. His unwillingness to interact with his readers in a way that the modern world simply demands. Etc. etc.
The greater exploration of the mind, the self, the universe, religion, society, etc., is somewhere at the heart of the story and I think that's where its greater importance lies. Taking a step closer though, its still a unique story, thats done extremely well (if you're asking me ;) ).
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I loved the world-building and the individual journeys that everyone other-than-Kellhus were on, but at the same time it still annoys me that they were not important at all. The Prince of Nothing series at least had an incredible solution where all strands of story were collected and unified to form a truly awesome moment. As much as insignificant main characters can have their own pivotal moments I still expect them to matter to the larger story.
In a way I'm reminded of the movie "No country for old men" where the story arcs are purposefully disjointed at the end (the veteran cop never finds the bad guy). But there we have an almost fourth-wall-breaking moment where one character grudgingly admits to just being confused and feeling disconnected from the world at large. It becomes a commentary on how the world doesn't necessarily adapt to the evolution of the story. I didn't get that feeling here.
We're on the same page. PoN seemed to make better use of its narrative arcs with an explosion of convergence both in each book and through to the end and final scene. TUC suffers from not having that same kind of coherence - little is done to make it all fit together in a satisfying way - at least compared to TTT.
I still loved TUC and I think it ended exactly as the story demanded, but there could have been better execution. Besides, I'm bias as well, been playing in this game too long to make objective judgments.
Wasn't that Bakker's point from the beginning? The anti-trope fantasy epic? There is no satisfying end. Nothing is wrapped up neatly. It's the anti-LotR. Everything just falls apart.
That certainly seems to be the case.
That sounds like more of an excuse than anything else.
Yes, that is the point, but telling a story poorly was not. That was still the point in PoN right? And if you ask me, that story ended up better than TAE.
Also, how deep do you want to go with that? Lets start down at the bottom of the rabbit hole instead of taking each step: Why write a story at all? The most anti-story would be no story at all.
If you're going to tell a story, tell it well.
Or not at all? That could be said for probably 99% of everything ever written. There's always some aspect that, as a reader, you wished was different or better. Do I have criticisms? Absolutely. Do I think the story was written poorly? No. It's just my opinion, I guess, but that's all I have.
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If you read bakker's other stuff, admittedly I can't handle his nonfiction, he seems to be always pressing upon the same points. I think that his fiction is mostly used as and exposé for his philosophy, and I think it does a marvelous job making clear what TPB makes entirely unapproachable. I'm hoping for a short afterward essay when TDTSNBN concludes, explaining how it all ties together (much like at the end of his short story Crash Space).
Fair enough Wilshire. I think the point of an anti-story is not so much in ultimately not writing it, but rather reacting to said fantasy tropes.
While I sympathize with the worries that TUC wrought, I can also say that I felt the power of fiction, of storytelling coming through loud and clear. Thinking and feeling while reading it: 'wow, that language can *do* this...' I'd rather read something like this, with a ton of ambition, while not perfect, than standard rehearsals of tropes or timid ones.
Besides the execution, there is something here, I mean the unnamed 3rd series. I can imagine that this anti-story or anti-trope did bring Bakker to a place where a vital question arose:
Whither humanity?
Which could mean an exploration of the search for meaning in a seemingly hostile universe, an 'enhanced' version of our own predicament. That's my wish for the continuation of this saga.
Don't get me wrong, something about TSA and the story we've got is compelling and glorious. TUC was a great book by itself as-is.
Many of these complaints, I think, stem from Bakker's own idiosyncrasies - like spending 20 years implying TUC was the end when really its at best 2/3s of the way there. His unwillingness to interact with his readers in a way that the modern world simply demands. Etc. etc.
The greater exploration of the mind, the self, the universe, religion, society, etc., is somewhere at the heart of the story and I think that's where its greater importance lies. Taking a step closer though, its still a unique story, thats done extremely well (if you're asking me ;) ).
After all, this is the TSA forum. ;D
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I think there will be a gap between TAE and the final series, but likely not as large as the the one between PON and TAE.
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You think Mimara's kid and the Crab-Hand will be adults in the next series, or not so much?
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You think Mimara's kid and the Crab-Hand will be adults in the next series, or not so much?
That's my biggest conflict with a time jump. Most of the main characters are old. Isn't akka like 70? I think Cnaiur was >70, Kellhus was in his 50's or 60's, so is esmenet. Skip forward just another 10 years and those guys, especially Akka, will be a bit to old to be slogging through the world (already felt that with Akka in WLW).
On the other hand, Crabicus, Akka Jr., Kelmomas, Moe Jr, even Mimara, are young enough that a solid 20 year jump would make for an interesting band of new characters. Without the jump, especially the first few I mentioned, those players are pretty young and don't seem to fit well into the story.
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You think Mimara's kid and the Crab-Hand will be adults in the next series, or not so much?
I keep going back and forth on that, to be honest. Maybe it would work with "Akka Jr.", the youngest of them, as a teenager (we had some POVs in this age range in TAE, after all), maybe not...
We don't know how old the Boy/Crab-Hand is, but probably around Kelmomas' age, as it has been said. He wouldn't need a 20-year timeskip to be an adult in the next series.
"Akka Jr." being just born at the end of TUC would necessitate a longer timeskip, but on the other hand, a 20+ year-long one would mean Akka would have likely died in the meantime (he was 47 in PON, so would be in his late 60s during TUC), so it depends if Bakker wants to keep him around (as a Seswatha-type figure) or only in flashbacks/memories. Esmenet is younger (31 in PON, so it's unlikely she'd have died of old age after a 20-year gap, she'd be in her 70s).
That's my biggest conflict with a time jump. Most of the main characters are old. Isn't akka like 70? I think Cnaiur was >70, Kellhus was in his 50's or 60's, so is esmenet. Skip forward just another 10 years and those guys, especially Akka, will be a bit to old to be slogging through the world (already felt that with Akka in WLW).
On the other hand, Crabicus, Akka Jr., Kelmomas, Moe Jr, even Mimara, are young enough that a solid 20 year jump would make for an interesting band of new characters. Without the jump, especially the first few I mentioned, those players are pretty young and don't seem to fit well into the story.
Exactly, Akka is 47 and Cnaïur 45 in PON if I remember correctly, and if those ages were given for the beginning of that series (4109), that would make them 70 and 68 in TUC. I personally think Cnaïur is dead (at least as Cnaïur, he might come back as a Ciphrang or something), but a 90-year old Akka might not be able to do much (if he's even still alive by then). Unless the qirri had lifespan-prolonging effects as chanv did, as it was pointed out in the TSA podcast, Iyokus was still active at 120+ years old.
Esmenet isn't as old as Akka or Cnaïur as I said above (31 in PON), so it'd still be believable to have her around after 20 years.
Mimara was born in 4095 as per the TTT glossary (I always thought Bakker made her a bit too old, but that's just my opinion) and would be 57 20 years post-TUC, so it also works for her.
Moënghus was born in (late) 4111, so he'd be in his early 40s. Kelmomas would be 28 (not that it matters much as the No-God). The Boy would be around that same age.
So the main reason you'd need a 20 year time jump (or longer) would be for the newborn "Akka Jr.", a shorter one (15 years? 10?) could work for the others, even the Boy. But like I said above, maybe it would work to have him as a teenager? Sorweel was 16 in this series, Serwa not much older, and they still had important roles to play.
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Thanks for that breakdown ThoughtsOfThelli, very helpful.
Yeah in that case, 20 years seems reasonable, and its the timeframe I'd expect.
Akka starting a heavy chanv addiction to sate his desire for qirri could easily prolong him to 120+. I'd be OK with a 90+ year old Akka as long as he's doing mostly sitting and flying (also creates a nice thematic juxtoposition of Akka becoming Iyokus - who he likely hates more than anyone except maybe Kelhus). Slogging back through the mop may be a bit too much, he's no Cleric, but its at least not without precedence in the story
.
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Thanks for that breakdown ThoughtsOfThelli, very helpful.
You're welcome, ages and timelines are something that interests me, so I tend to remember. :)
Yeah in that case, 20 years seems reasonable, and its the timeframe I'd expect.
Akka starting a heavy chanv addiction to sate his desire for qirri could easily prolong him to 120+. I'd be OK with a 90+ year old Akka as long as he's doing mostly sitting and flying (also creates a nice thematic juxtoposition of Akka becoming Iyokus - who he likely hates more than anyone except maybe Kelhus). Slogging back through the mop may be a bit too much, he's no Cleric, but its at least not without precedence in the story.
I wonder if he does manage to get access to chanv in a now-apocalyptic chaotic world, but it's definitely not out of the realm of possibility - maybe we'll finally find out where chanv comes from?
Interesting point with Akka becoming more like Iyokus, I hadn't thought of that much besides the precedent for living past 100 while being fairly active. I hope this is the case now, I would like very much for Akka to still be around for the last series.
Now I also wonder how long a chanv user can live barring other causes of death, Iyokus really seemed like he could have easily lasted several more decades.
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The big question is how on earth Earwa survives 20 more years.
Like, I want there to be a time skip, but it really seems like the obvious move for the No-God is to just roll down on the 3 Seas and kill everyone before a new generation of the Few/soldiers can be born.
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The big question is how on earth Earwa survives 20 more years.
Like, I want there to be a time skip, but it really seems like the obvious move for the No-God is to just roll down on the 3 Seas and kill everyone before a new generation of the Few/soldiers can be born.
Under Resumption, literally there will be no new generation born. Too late for that already.
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I was meaning more that the children of the present would grow up to be useful vs. the Consult. Like, the supply of new soldiers/magicians won't dry up for ten 15 or so years.
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Another possibility is that the new series itself will span a long amount of time, without a time jump between TAE and the new series.
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I was meaning more that the children of the present would grow up to be useful vs. the Consult. Like, the supply of new soldiers/magicians won't dry up for ten 15 or so years.
Took a long time for the North and the Three Seas to fall the last time the no god walked, though I don't think it was 20 years.
That said, presumably Zeum is the main opponent here since its been untouched by the happenings of the last 30 years. Kellhus rebuilt the mountain crossing fortress, and it lies on the other side of a desert. It may take an extraordinary amount of time to break into that half of the continent. Then there's still all that land to cross before whatever capital city itself.
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I think the No-God was 'alive' for 11 years the first time.
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I think the No-God was 'alive' for 11 years the first time.
There is surely less resistance this time though, as the North no longer exists as an opponent for the No-God and is now just distance to be crossed. OK, Atrithau and Sakarpus are still there, but I don't see them as significant as Sakarpus has the Chorae Hoard looted by the Ordeal, and the anarcane ground at Artithau can surely just be overrun by Sranc without any need for sorcery.
The Three Seas can probably raise one or more significantly large armies, given its high population, but most of its military leadership has just been obliterated at Golgotterath, as has most if not all of the sorcerous schools. Additionally the administrative centre of the Empire has been devastated by earthquake and flood. Soldiers have to be trained, sorcerors have to be taught, they all have to be supplied.
Which leaves us with Zeum (we don't know what their military capabilities are)
and the Scylvendi
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Worth pointing out that the No-God this time around is half Dunyain. It took apart the whole of the Great Ordeal in an afternoon or so, which was a host far stronger than any that existed in the past. I think the Sranc chorae relay was beyond anything the old No-God could pull off. I wouldn't count on the fortresses and armies of the world having any shot at all.
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There is surely less resistance this time though, as the North no longer exists as an opponent for the No-God and is now just distance to be crossed. OK, Atrithau and Sakarpus are still there, but I don't see them as significant as Sakarpus has the Chorae Hoard looted by the Ordeal, and the anarcane ground at Artithau can surely just be overrun by Sranc without any need for sorcery.
It's not entirely clear why anarcane ground or the Chorae Hoard really prevented the No-God from destroying either of those places though.
I've speculated before (http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=1605) that it's possible that there is some kind of perceptual "blindness" that each affords, but it's also likely that without sorcery, it just simply wasn't worth the effort.
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and the anarcane ground at Artithau can surely just be overrun by Sranc without any need for sorcery.
Big question here is whether the No-God's control of the Sranc is, itself, sorcerous enough to be inactive on anarcane ground.
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and the anarcane ground at Artithau can surely just be overrun by Sranc without any need for sorcery.
Big question here is whether the No-God's control of the Sranc is, itself, sorcerous enough to be inactive on anarcane ground.
Seems likely to me that the NG itself is sorcerous, rather than something as etheral as 'its control'. Because, you'll note, that the sranc holding the chorae remain in control. So it seems reasonable that a large store of chorae or Anarcane ground prevent the NG from entering the area. There's also, probably, so geographic limit to NG's control over the sranc, so preventing the NG from getting relatively close prevents it from extending its control to that region.
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I don't think there are geographic limits to the No-God's control. Wasn't there a 'one vast and terrible will' quote somewhere? There may be a limit in regards to how important the beast is though. I think Wutteat says something about being beyond even the Black Heaven, and folks seem to think that Aurax/Aurang aren't necessarily just terminals.
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Maybe a function of strength of control vs distance. Ie, sranc army next to the whirlwind can form complex chorae passing routes, sranc 4000 miles away are vaguely compelled to seek out the NG.
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Slowly working through threads - without yet having read the canon artifact - while working through whatever is ailing me now on top of a broken foot.
On topic, I disagree with much of what has been written here :).
I will gladly elaborate in the future but I think that TAE suffers this unwarranted readerly bias that it somehow needed to tell the whole story, where that same onus was not put upon PON - as Wilshire mentioned, Bakker certainly did a disservice by building up that bias across the past half-decade and more. As I've discussed with others privately a handful of times, there are fairly well-defined and contained narrative arcs in TAE and the individual volumes therein. In my opinion, to fixate on those things that aren't addressed (for instance, Mimara's journey to become a Prophetess - her arc across TAE - versus what she might do with that later) is misreading TAE as it stands alone.
But, as I said, lots of time to get into the minutia of my thoughts once I read TUC in tattooed, dead tree form.
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I think the No-God was 'alive' for 11 years the first time.
There is surely less resistance this time though, as the North no longer exists as an opponent for the No-God and is now just distance to be crossed. OK, Atrithau and Sakarpus are still there, but I don't see them as significant as Sakarpus has the Chorae Hoard looted by the Ordeal, and the anarcane ground at Artithau can surely just be overrun by Sranc without any need for sorcery.
The Three Seas can probably raise one or more significantly large armies, given its high population, but most of its military leadership has just been obliterated at Golgotterath, as has most if not all of the sorcerous schools. Additionally the administrative centre of the Empire has been devastated by earthquake and flood. Soldiers have to be trained, sorcerors have to be taught, they all have to be supplied.
Which leaves us with Zeum (we don't know what their military capabilities are)
and the Scylvendi
Agree with this big time. Some thoughts on surviving military powers:
Atrithau. Like Zeum, "unarcane ground" is something that Bakker's on record saying is left for future books. So chances are it'll play a part.
However, Atrithau might be in worse shape than some think. The glossary entry (at least, in the ARC) for Aethelarius (Atrithau King) notes that he was killed by Cnaiur and the Scylvendi in the Battle of the Eels. And IIRC, the date made it seem like something that happened when the Scylvendi were on their way to Golgatterath. So they are likely severely weakened.
Sakarpus. They have a number of able-bodied warriors. But without the Chorae Horde, I'm guessing they couldn't do a lot to slow down the NG and co.
Fanim. Between those who abandoned Fanayal and other bedouin who kept to themselves, there are enough warriors to put up some sort of a fight. Especially in adverse conditions like desert -- Sranc can starve just like humans.
Jekkhia and Cingulat. Like Sakarpus and Zeum, these are two remote kingdoms that didn't bend the knee to Kellhus. I don't imagine they're exactly teeming with military might. But it's something.
Any way you slice it, the fate of Earwa rests in the hands of Zeum and the women of the Three Seas[/u]. What's interesting about this is that in an early version of Earwa, the Satyothi, like women, were objectively lesser in the eyes of the Gods!
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Jekkhia and Cingulat. Like Sakarpus and Zeum, these are two remote kingdoms that didn't bend the knee to Kellhus. I don't imagine they're exactly teeming with military might. But it's something.
I might be remembering wrong, but weren't there some people from Jekkhia and Cingulat among the Scions? Of course, that didn't mean they were conquered (Zeüm wasn't and Zsoronga was part of the Scions too), but I got the impression Zeüm was the last place of importance left standing.
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Jekkhia and Cingulat. Like Sakarpus and Zeum, these are two remote kingdoms that didn't bend the knee to Kellhus. I don't imagine they're exactly teeming with military might. But it's something.
I might be remembering wrong, but weren't there some people from Jekkhia and Cingulat among the Scions? Of course, that didn't mean they were conquered (Zeüm wasn't and Zsoronga was part of the Scions too), but I got the impression Zeüm was the last place of importance left standing.
Yup, there were hostages from Jekkhia and Cingulat among the Scions. Like you say above, that doesn't necessarily make them as independent or as mighty as Zeum. But also don't remember military contingents from either kingdom in the GO. So there might be some strength there?
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I'm going to toss an opposing idea in here: What if it actually jumps backwards a few days?
As mentioned here, Zeum is one of the most able to defend itself right now. However... it has a Ciphrang coming for it at the end of TGO. There's no way any chaos that results from this hasn't already happened by the time Resumption occurs. Plus, Bakker has said that Zeum will play a role at some point... I'd be interested in having the story continue from Zeum's point of view at the end of TGO, showing the Ciphrang arriving, the No-God being born, and continuing from there.
I just don't think a time jump could be useful unless the final series is about a small resistance after the rest of the world is destroyed. Plus there are too many loose ends at the end of TUC, as opposed to TTT which wrapped up the story arcs nicely. Moe Jr. is now in control of the Scylvendi. I suspect he'll rally them to fight the No-God (they might even have the Heron Spear). What happened to the rest of the main cast? Who knows! A time jump would be awkward, in my opinion, but who knows.
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I'm going to toss an opposing idea in here: What if it actually jumps backwards a few days?
As mentioned here, Zeum is one of the most able to defend itself right now. However... it has a Ciphrang coming for it at the end of TGO. There's no way any chaos that results from this hasn't already happened by the time Resumption occurs. Plus, Bakker has said that Zeum will play a role at some point... I'd be interested in having the story continue from Zeum's point of view at the end of TGO, showing the Ciphrang arriving, the No-God being born, and continuing from there.
I just don't think a time jump could be useful unless the final series is about a small resistance after the rest of the world is destroyed. Plus there are too many loose ends at the end of TUC, as opposed to TTT which wrapped up the story arcs nicely. Moe Jr. is now in control of the Scylvendi. I suspect he'll rally them to fight the No-God (they might even have the Heron Spear). What happened to the rest of the main cast? Who knows! A time jump would be awkward, in my opinion, but who knows.
I wouldn't be surprised if it went like that, codebread. At the very least, we'd need to get some flashbacks, right?
On the topic of the Ciphrang assassin, whether or not the Emperor is killed before Resumption is entirely up to how fast said Ciphrang can move. I got the impression that it's only a matter of days between Kellhus sending the Ciphrang and Resumption. And if the Ciphrang had to reach Domyot through mundane means, it would at least take months. I wouldn't be surprised if the assassination happens a good bit after Resumption.
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I will gladly elaborate in the future but I think that TAE suffers this unwarranted readerly bias that it somehow needed to tell the whole story, where that same onus was not put upon PON - as Wilshire mentioned, Bakker certainly did a disservice by building up that bias across the past half-decade and more. As I've discussed with others privately a handful of times, there are fairly well-defined and contained narrative arcs in TAE and the individual volumes therein. In my opinion, to fixate on those things that aren't addressed (for instance, Mimara's journey to become a Prophetess - her arc across TAE - versus what she might do with that later) is misreading TAE as it stands alone.
But, as I said, lots of time to get into the minutia of my thoughts once I read TUC in tattooed, dead tree form.
I agree to some extent. However, PON had many, if not most, of its story arcs concluded in TTT. There were questions to be asked, surely, but the main conflict was resolved. That could have been the case for TAE, if not for all of the questions raised by the cliffhanger ending. Looking at Goodreads reviews, it seems that many people aren't even aware that there will be a third series.
This is why I'm hoping for no time jump, or a very small one.
I'm going to toss an opposing idea in here: What if it actually jumps backwards a few days?
As mentioned here, Zeum is one of the most able to defend itself right now. However... it has a Ciphrang coming for it at the end of TGO. There's no way any chaos that results from this hasn't already happened by the time Resumption occurs. Plus, Bakker has said that Zeum will play a role at some point... I'd be interested in having the story continue from Zeum's point of view at the end of TGO, showing the Ciphrang arriving, the No-God being born, and continuing from there.
I just don't think a time jump could be useful unless the final series is about a small resistance after the rest of the world is destroyed. Plus there are too many loose ends at the end of TUC, as opposed to TTT which wrapped up the story arcs nicely. Moe Jr. is now in control of the Scylvendi. I suspect he'll rally them to fight the No-God (they might even have the Heron Spear). What happened to the rest of the main cast? Who knows! A time jump would be awkward, in my opinion, but who knows.
I wouldn't be surprised if it went like that, codebread. At the very least, we'd need to get some flashbacks, right?
On the topic of the Ciphrang assassin, whether or not the Emperor is killed before Resumption is entirely up to how fast said Ciphrang can move. I got the impression that it's only a matter of days between Kellhus sending the Ciphrang and Resumption. And if the Ciphrang had to reach Domyot through mundane means, it would at least take months. I wouldn't be surprised if the assassination happens a good bit after Resumption.
Hmmm... good point. I was thinking that Resumption was more than a few days, though not much longer than a week. I also imagined the Ciphrang would fly, but that was based purely on their summoned forms, which this is not. Perhaps this assassin is closer to a skin-spy, in a way.
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Perhaps this assassin is closer to a skin-spy, in a way.
On the subject of skin-spies, is it just me or do you all expect Zeum to be full of SS? Almost wondering if the Emperor is one himself. In which case the Ciphrang-assassin would actually be helping...
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I agree to some extent. However, PON had many, if not most, of its story arcs concluded in TTT. There were questions to be asked, surely, but the main conflict was resolved. That could have been the case for TAE, if not for all of the questions raised by the cliffhanger ending. Looking at Goodreads reviews, it seems that many people aren't even aware that there will be a third series.
Was it really that different?
Moenghus was a huge build up - dies suddenly
Cnaiur - no idea if he lived or died
Akka - denounces Kellhus and walks off - major cliff hanger
Esmenet - still torn between Kellhus and Akka
Kellhus - Master of the Three Seas - ok this one is pretty much 'concluded', but what's next?
Iyokus and the Ciphrang?
Consult?
Inchoroi?
What the heck is TTT?
What's the No God?
We still know nothing of the Nonmen, what's up with them?
Which other ones am I missing? Depending on which themantic elements you choose to look at, we really didn't get a whole lot from TTT. It ends as much in the middle of the story that TUC does.
As per "main conflict resolved" in TUC that you noted above:
Resolved Kellhus - dead
Resolved Consult - usurped and replaced
Resolved Kelmomas - NG
Resolved Esment - done
Resolved Mimara and her pregnancy - finished
Resolved Serwe - gone
Resolved TGO - its dead
Everything is as resolved or as unresolved as you choose to view it - and thats the point, isn't it? I can't speak to your frame of mind when originally reading TTT vs TUC, but if you are viewing them from the same lens now, how different are they?
We have the benefit of 4 books after TTT, not to mention the better part of a decade of speculation and conversation to make sense of it. Comparing what we know of TTT now compared to what we know of TUC now is hardly an apples to apples comparison is it? And how can we go back, and remember how we felt about TTT back then and fairly compare it to TUC now? Even if you read them all at once very recently, you still have 4 books between them, and trying to remember would be revisionist at best, yeah? :)
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Sorry, still cant use quote function from my phone. But, pertaining to No-God being sorcerous, then how does it function with chorae embedded in it the first time around? The chorae was there for protection against sorcery, only removed because the Mutilated expected Kellhus to take up the Carapace. No, the No-God is just an extension of the Ark, just like its said in the book. Basically the harddrive is how i view it. (Please take that analogy with a grain of salt, i know shit about tech shit.)
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Sorry, still cant use quote function from my phone. But, pertaining to No-God being sorcerous, then how does it function with chorae embedded in it the first time around? The chorae was there for protection against sorcery, only removed because the Mutilated expected Kellhus to take up the Carapace. No, the No-God is just an extension of the Ark, just like its said in the book. Basically the harddrive is how i view it. (Please take that analogy with a grain of salt, i know shit about tech shit.)
I get it, but its very hard to separate metaphysical from magical, and harder still to justify why anarcane ground and chorae horde have any effect whatsoever if its not magical in nature in some way.
MSJ, can you tell your phone to use the desktop site? I know if you're using Chrome you can click 'request desktop site' from the options. Not sure why but the mobile site seems to be shit.
You could also switch it back to the old format :(
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Yeah, I don't particularly go for the idea that the NG is purely mechanical. It's definitely metaphysical - it requires a soul to work, and it hinges on meaning (Subject and Object collapsed), just like sorcery (or the Gnosis, at least).
It combines the two aspects, imo. Tekne and metaphysics. The Fathers of the Inchoroi and the Ark by extension would not have come up with the solution that is the NG - they knew nothing about sorcery.
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Well, thats not how i see it. It needs a soul and a special one, i agree. So there is something metaphysical. But, is see it as an extension with a game plan downloaded into it by the Progenitors. Maybe it juat needs a strong soul, one who is close to the Outside in some manner. Nayu-Cayuti was said to be rode by Gilgoal and we know Kellhus has that connection. Where this part breaks down is that Kelmommas was able to take over the Carapace.
Which is highly confusing. Because, its like Kel was pre-ordained to be the No-God. Hence, him being blind to the Gods. After this layer of revelation, i dont think Ajokli had any control at all over Kel. It was predetermined that he would be the No-God and this contradicts wvwrything we know about Nayu-Cayuti. So, its obviously something else that makes one suitable for the Carapace. Something we're not seeing.
ETA: Wilshire, thanks. But, i truly love the Mobile format, I'll just have to be bothered to quote manually, poor me. ;)
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Well, thats not how i see it. It needs a soul and a special one, i agree. So there is something metaphysical. But, is see it as an extension with a game plan downloaded into it by the Progenitors. Maybe it juat needs a strong soul, one who is close to the Outside in some manner. Nayu-Cayuti was said to be rode by Gilgoal and we know Kellhus has that connection. Where this part breaks down is that Kelmommas was able to take over the Carapace.
Which is highly confusing. Because, its like Kel was pre-ordained to be the No-God. Hence, him being blind to the Gods. After this layer of revelation, i dont think Ajokli had any control at all over Kel. It was predetermined that he would be the No-God and this contradicts wvwrything we know about Nayu-Cayuti. So, its obviously something else that makes one suitable for the Carapace. Something we're not seeing.
ETA: Wilshire, thanks. But, i truly love the Mobile format, I'll just have to be bothered to quote manually, poor me. ;)
Link to another thread covering my far-fetched theory of why NC and Kel:
http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=2254.msg35463#msg35463
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Any way you slice it, the fate of Earwa rests in the hands of Zeum and the women of the Three Seas.
Preach ;).