I see, yeah, I misunderstood what you were getting at, but that makes sense.  I have little doubt that they were forced to consummate the marriage and perhaps, in doing so, that is the sin that Iëva was seeking to circumvent, via the Consult?  It's hard to imagine one so young having a litany of deep sins...although it is possible.

It's also possible that once she had flowered, possibly other measures were taken to avoid such an early pregnancy.  That could well be more on the ledger of "sins" she sought reprieve from.  We really don't know much about such things on Eärwa, but there could well be something of a "puritanical" culture out there, somewhere, of which she could well have been raised in.

She could well have taken to other measures to avoid the problem all together.  "Morning after" contraception existed in ancient times, of course of various effectiveness.  Abortion could well be another of her "sins."

Contraception of any kind is seen as equivalent to abortion in plenty of cultures

I thought of those possibilities, but I kept wondering if it wouldn't be fairly difficult for her to have access to any of those, seeing as she was a child bride in the court of her husband's family, and presumably would have had few allies, not to mention someone who could help with actively preventing the birth of any children of royal blood (which might qualify as treason?). But she could have indeed have had someone to supply her with some kind of contraceptive or abortifacient, maybe even an agent of the Consult later on?
Those could in fact be her "sins" (or some of them), I hadn't thought of that. Abortion or something which was seen like abortion would likely qualify as enough to damn her in Eärwa.

I do wonder how and why she died 6 years later though...

Could be the suspicion of her complicity in NC's death only came later, after the second round of poisoning took place with the other victim.

You're right, Somnambulist, we might be biased by the fact it's widely known she poisoned him 2000+ years after the fact. Who knows if she'd have even been suspected of anything at the time, it might be a case of it becoming a theory most historians believed to be true an unknown number of years after it took place.
I'm also very curious about her death 6 years later, that probably lends credence to the possibility no one suspected her of murder right away (unless she was imprisoned instead of executed like I theorised before). I wonder if the Consult had something to do with it...

Plausible, but that was in 2142, so she lived another 4 years after.

2146 also marks Celmomas' death and the defeat at the Fields of Eleneöt.  Possibly she was there as well, perhaps as a part of some royal escort?  Or, perhaps she realized she was forsaken by the Consult and the remaining Anasûrimbor and killed herself?  That seems unlikely, given that she knew she was damned though.

That's right, so that would be another possibility.
I could see her committing suicide if she had some realization there was no way to escape her damnation after all, and was overwhelmed by despair.

That certainly makes a big difference though.  Being that she was so young, she probably had a pretty rough life, even if she was royalty to begin with.

Consider, married outside her consent at 8, plausibly she could have "flowered" between 10 and 14, but she "dies" at 15.  Pretty abominable by modern standards, but probably not all that uncommon or unheard of in ancient times.

Further though, Nau-Cayûti could well have already been in puberty when married (being 14 at the time), so Iëva could have, in fact, have been used as a sexual object from the outset of the marriage.

So, in the end, you were married away at 8, used as a sexual object, trapped in a loveless relationship, and then to top it off, after such a heaping of indignity which you bear, you are supplanted by a consort?  Who presumably isn't even royalty?  No wonder the Consult was able to turn her...

Actually, the appendices have her death date as 2146, 6 years after Nau-Cayûti's, which admittedly surprised me - if everyone knew she was responsible for his "death", it seems strange that there would have been no swift repercussions. Especially considering how much Celmomas loved his son, and that he also outlived him by several years, so would have been around to punish Iëva.
I suppose it's possible she wasn't executed but rather imprisoned for the rest of her life? Still, she died young in any case, whether she was 15 or 21.

I figured that it was possible she was forced to consummate the marriage right at the beginning, considering the sort of world they live in (I was just trying not to think too much about it, ugh). From a practical standpoint, it would have been a better choice for Nau-Cayûti to wait until she was old enough to bear children safely, being that would be the main purpose of the marriage. I guess he could always remarry if Iëva died from complications during pregnancy or in childbirth, though.
Or maybe he did wait - and that was when he took Aulisi as a lover? One more reason for Iëva to resent her.

I just feel sorry for her after figuring out her age and thinking a bit about it, because it does change her circumstances. You are right in that it would have been so easy for the Consult to get her to cooperate in light of all this.

Yup, that all checks out.

Great find with the timeline. Her being married at 8 really adds an interesting layer to their story.

Its always great to see what bits are hidden even after all this time. If you haven't done a re-read yet I'd recommend it - if you think this is cool, a reread will blow your mind .

It really does, even if it makes her life all the more depressing. The "wonders" of living in Eärwa!

My re-read is currently on hold (even though I'm definitely still planning on doing it) for work reasons...sadly, that probably means I won't be able to get to it before reading The Unholy Consult, but August is still a good month for the discovery of brand new details.

Yesterday I was flicking through the books searching for a quote to use in my signature, when I happened to glance upon Iëva's birth and death years in the appendices of The White-Luck Warrior. In that book, Achamian has his dream of Nau-Cayûti's supposed death and Iëva is mentioned as "his wife of seven years".
We know Nau-Cayûti's "death" took place in 2140. Therefore, they were married in or around 2133 - and if you look at their birth years, Nau-Cayûti (born 2119) would have been 14 at the time, which is already fairly young, while Iëva (born 2125) would have been only 8 years old... I doubt that this is a mistake (the timeline and related math seems to be pretty consistent throughout this series), but still, eight seems a bit too young even considering that royals might marry at very young ages. Presumably, Celmomas was the one to arrange the marriage, and the main purpose would be, of course, grandchildren to continue his line, but Iëva wouldn't be old enough to have children for quite a few years...
I was left wondering if this could be a situation similar to that of little Lady Ermesande Hayford in A Song of Ice and Fire, who was married off as an infant because she was the last of her line and so her wealth and lands would come into possession of her husband's family. (Completely speculation on my part, but there's no evidence against it either, so that's what I'm choosing to believe for now.)

And yes, maybe I'm just overthinking this small detail, but it kind of makes me see her character in a somewhat new light. You have this "treacherous wife" sacrificing her husband to save her own soul. More understandable if you consider she was only fifteen years old instead of twenty-something?

So sorry for "resurrecting" a thread months after I last posted here, but I wanted to reply to the people who had commented here after I went in a fairly long (work-related) hiatus back in April (I'm hoping I won't be as busy later this month, I really want to return to this fandom and forums).

Welcome to the Second Apocalypse, Thoughts .

Thank you.

I LOVE THELI! I kind of wish we got to see what the empire would have been like with her as empress.  I think she'd be constantly leading members of her court into traps--she would let on that she was 'damaged' and let those who would unseat her expose themselves and so cull her court

WELCOME!

Oh, I wish that would have been the case, Holy Empress Anasûrimbor Theliopa I would have been amazing (in an alternate universe, maybe that's what happened  ). Everyone would just see her as this unemotional and fairly harmless source of knowledge, and she'd really be playing them the whole time, including Kelmomas, hopefully.

And thank you.

Welcome! It's an awesome place here.

Thank you.

Welcome to the forum!

I am  somewhat envious of your current position. The first re-read was an extraordinary experience - almost like the books were somehow entirely different than the first time around.

Glad to have you here, feel free to post as you see fit. Since you've already read it, there's not much to worry about as far as spoilers go, unless you haven't read Bakker's Atrocity Tales. If that's the case, do that!

On Bakker's Blog he has links to several short stories, two of which are TSA related. Check out The Fase Sun and he Four Revelations of Cinial’jin post-haste . Crash Space and A Dime Spared are unrelated but great scifi short stories.

Also, how did you make your way to this forum?

Thank you! I will check out the tales as soon as possible.

I think I just searched for "second apocalypse discussion forum" (or something close to that) online after reading the books. I was so curious to see what kinds of theories/thoughts were being floated around online.

Welcome, ThoughtsofThelli! Awesome name choice.

Thanks. When reading the Aspect-Emperor series, Thelli's character kept getting more and more likeable with every single appearance, so I needed to have some reference to her in my username. I'll probably choose a good quote by her for my signature when I re-read the books. Maybe find some fanart to match for my avatar if I can to have a whole theme going.
TGO Spoiler: