Quote from: TheCulminatingApe on July 28, 2017, 10:17:44 pm

In Prince of Nothing, there is a scene where Conphas describes war as intellect, and then later on, another scene where Cnaiur describes war as conviction.  Given this, should we see one of the key themes of the entire Second Apocalypse as a contrast and/or conflict between rationality and faith, and/or their implications?

Many of the words used to describe the in-story concepts have more than one meaning in English. With that in mind, how important to the overall story arc is the spiritual/religious meaning of gnosis?

Should we read anything into the use of the word jihad for the Fanim holy wars?

Are the head-fucking scenes a direct message from the author to the reader?

How much is the Earwa No-God influenced by Karl Barth's concept of the No-God?

A large part of the project deals with problematizing both rationality and faith in light of their mandatory nature, the fact that we have no bloody choice but to live life through them--as well as how both are bound to ultimately let us down, despite their proximal power.

Both gnosis and jihad plug into the conceptual imaginary of the series in largely retail ways.

As a rewriting writer, you hover over the text too long not to become wicked in some small way.

I've never read a lick of Barths.

Thanks, Scott

I have read a few of them in no particular order.  Would recommend.
Player of Games was exceptional.

I agree.  Also check out The Bridge, which is written under his non Sci-fi banner (no M in the name), but should definitely appeal to fantasy fans

Couldn't finish The City and the City. Just not a fan of the genre.

I loved PSS, and the ending was a big proponent of that. The book was dark and gritty, a happy ending would have ruined the entire novel for me.

I've not picked up the next book in the series yet, since a lot of my "reading" is actually done on frequent 4 or 8 hour drives, and for some reason the rest of Bas-Lag never made it to audio.

Does either sequel flesh out some of the less developed topics? Such as the whole Demon/hell thing? Or do they follow a more mundane man who sees the works of taumaturgy from afar?

Embassytown and Kraken are both on Audio, and so it Looking for Jake: Stories (which follows Jack Half-A-Prayer as a central character I think). I suppose I'll probably pick up one of those soon and see how they go. Of the three, any recommendations?

Embassytown for sure.  Kraken is quite fun, but I found it to be a bit silly; just Miéville goofing off, really.  Embassytown, on the other hand, is an amazingly imagined speculative SF novel that is fun to read and really challenges its reader.

I loved all three Bas-Lag books, and The City and the City.  I'd not come across anything like Perdido Street Station before.  It changed my perceptions of what could be done with fantasy.

Kraken disappointed me.  It just seemed like it was written by someone with a London fetish.

Moby Dick, and The Great Sea (a history of the Mediterranean).  In both cases re-reads

Quote from: TheCulminatingApe on July 29, 2017, 11:20:36 am

The entry says that some refer to the Horns of Golgotterath as two of the four horns of Ajokli.  But, remember, Kellhus blasted the Canted Horn clean off with a laser weapon.  This suggests he has perhaps injured or damaged Ajokli, or gained some other sort of victory over him.

Sure, by that premise.

How awesome was Kellhus taking the Canted Horn down on the Second Horde! Or even just him taking on the Second Horde to give the Ordeal time to take the blasted fortifications?!

It was fucking amazing!

Now Esmenet’s story was always the most boring storyline in the Aspect Emperor series, the whole New Empire plot seemed to have no impact upon the wider world. But now it seems crucial to what is going to happen in the overall story arc. It now seems that little old Esmenet is just as important if not even more so than Kellhuss. It was she who gave birth to the newest prophet who will see the world in the time of the resurrected No-God and the grandchild who may be its ultimate savior. She also gave birth to the No-God itself, without her none of these greater events would seem to have happened. It was she who kept Akka in Sumna when he first encountered the Consult, that forced him to flee that place when he was told to follow the holy war by the Mandate, which in turn led him to Proyas and thence Kellhuss and Cnaiur. It was her love and then the snatching away of that love which forced Akka into exile and then her love which prevented his execution, and her stories about him which led Mimara to him thence her pregnancy and her journey to prophethood. And now the No-God itself is her youngest child who is half Dunyain and whose only true love is her, she freed him which led to his eventually becoming the No-God. Maybe being half Dunyain will make it smarter than last time but if that is true than maybe its love for Esmenet might still also come through.

That's a pretty good call on Esmenet being as if not more important than Kellhus.  I also see her as important because she's the only complete mundane character - a sort of everywoman (or everyperson). She has no magical ability, she's not a great warrior, or part of the nobility.  She's someone from very humble origins

Now you have a man who is in the son of both Kellhuss the aspect emperor and Cnauir the most violent of all men, born of one but raised by the other

he also loves Esmenet as his mother so there will be cooperation with whoever is left in the Kellian Empire.

Another good call re the actual and adoptive parentage.  I'm not there'll be much co-operation with the Empire though.  I reckon the Empire is dead and buried as a political body.

Then it would stand to reason that the boy is even greater than both his father and his grandfather, the only reason that he was declared defective by the Assessor was because emotion had too much of his soul.

Another character that seemed to disappear from the last book was Meppa, the last Cishaurim who was not killed by Kellhuss. He was outside of the city when the quake hit and I doubt that he drowned on a flat plain where he was. Another seed for the next series to grow later on, he can feel the birth of the No-God  and can see the world in ways that no other human could during the last apocalypse. Now unmoored from the Fanim cause by the obvious truth of the second apocalypse, the world will need his ocean of water.

The Psuhke seems to work through emotion, and psuche is Greek for soul.  I think emotion has an important part to play in the whole story, and contrasts with the cold unfeeling logic of Dunyain.

But I wanted to see Shae at long last, hear him speak about his motives and why he did what he did for all of these years. See Mekeritrig go full Nonmen erratic sorcerer on his foes and show them why they feared they Consult for so long. It would have been great if he had survived and Shae had simply ceded leadership of the Consult to the Mutilated, the goal was not power but simply to save their eternal souls after all.

I reckon the Mutilated killed Shae because they couldn't master him in the same way as other beings.  By virtue of what he had become physically, with his soul constantly flitting from one dying body to another, there would be no facial expressions to read and no tone in his voice to pick up on.  He was a circumstance that couldn't be mastered, and hence he died.

I think the biggest defency of this series was the lack of a clear enemy to fight until the very end of the story, the first series had them fighting the Fanim and prosecuting the Holy War, there was an enemy for them to fight. This one the enemy never appeared except in drips and drabs, the world was the enemy and that lacks a certain narrative tension.

Agree

Scott, thanks for the time and effort you have spent writing these books. They are like nothing I have ever read before.

In Prince of Nothing, there is a scene where Conphas describes war as intellect, and then later on, another scene where Cnaiur describes war as conviction.  Given this, should we see one of the key themes of the entire Second Apocalypse as a contrast and/or conflict between rationality and faith, and/or their implications?

Many of the words used to describe the in-story concepts have more than one meaning in English. With that in mind, how important to the overall story arc is the spiritual/religious meaning of gnosis?

Should we read anything into the use of the word jihad for the Fanim holy wars?

Are the head-fucking scenes a direct message from the author to the reader?

How much is the Earwa No-God influenced by Karl Barth's concept of the No-God?

This last book felt a little dissatisfying (taken on it's own) but if you combine it with TGO and read both directly after one another it is a fantastic read.

Both would benefit from better editing IMHO.

Either Kellhus Tricked the Trickster and will aid humanity through the Outside or it will be a tale of human perseverance. And, i think the latter is much more probable.

Could well be both.  It's by no means clear what Kellhus was up to, and whether he won or lost.  Humanity is definitely up against it with the No-God on the loose - but we know it can be defeated.

Do remember, Bakker is a teacher and teachers like to teach.

I think we went to different schools, MSJ

I was loving the first half of the book, but as soon as the attack on the Ark begins, I was feeling a bit let down. I was expecting more of a look into the Ark and Golgotterath itself, more of what the stories and Akka's Dreams had made me envision. We didn't really get any of that; just a lot of fighting outside of it and a look into the Golden Room.

I felt the opposite.  The first half dragged and dragged.  But once the attack began things got much better.  The equivalent some of the really great battle scenes from PON.  It wasn't perfect though. I'd definitely have liked to see more inside the Ark, and what sort of things were going on there.  Serwa and the dragon was fairly bizarre, in a way that jarred. 

Also, High Cwol is a fucking awful name for anything

I think you're going to get this opinion from most people who aren't aware that a third series might be written (Just take a look at the Goodreads reviews- they read much like OP's post and don't seem to know there is a planned third series).

I think if Bakker were to come out and say, "Yes there will definitely be a third series", I would feel better about it. As it stands, I liked the book a lot, but I have very mixed feelings about the ending.

I'd always assumed the third series would get written

I've posted on this before and explained that I'm a huge fan of this series but I'm also disappointed in the ending.  It's not so much the end goal of inverting the standard fantasy trope where the over-matched heroes find some miraculous way to save the world but rather the opaque narrative.  I wanted to feel the full force of the world ending and the failure of what may have been the world's last best chance at survival but instead all I felt was a burning desire to read and reread the last chapter to figure out what the hell actually occurred.  I've read it again and again and I still can't make heads or tails of it.  And the real kicker is, neither can anyone else!  Beyond strange theories and wild speculations, nobody can say with any degree of certainty just what happened, never mind discussing the why things happened the way they did.   

I can't imagine Bakker's intention to wrap up this opus was to leave everyone completely confused but as his prose improved from book to book his narrative clarity got worse and worse.   I've said it before and I'll say it again, the whole Aspect Emperor series after the Judging Eye could have benefited greatly from a strong editor.     

This pretty much sums up my thoughts on the book.  The points above narrative clarity and about the need for a strong editor are spot on.

Some of the plotlines have (for me) little sense without a continuation.
For example, Achamian&Mimara: what will be the point of travelling all through Earwa, endure Cil-Aujas, the Mop, a dragon, Ishual, etc, and then arrive to the Great Ordeal and don't use the fucking Judging Eye, share at most some pathetic words with Kellhus (sparing him useful information about Cnaiur, Ishual... and not really confronting him) and don't do a fucking thing in the great battle of their time???

We get day-to-day experience of a Nonman Erratic, we find out Ishual has been destroyed by the Consult, we get a POV from a Dunyain who is then exposed to the Judging Eye, and we get a baby pumped full of qirri in the womb, who may or may not be a receptacle for the soul of Kellhus.  You're right about the reunion with Kellhus though

Not to mention all ensouled creatures across Earwa can perceive the No-God. Whatever his reasons, the Aspect-Emperor spoke true and wasn't warring across the wastes of Earwa against a myth.

Ahh, but your assuming its over and thats the only two options. As i said in other threads, Kellhus came to believe in humans. I think he tricked Ajokli, knowing Ajokli nature and there is textual evidence inthe books (see Cnauir and whirlwind).  What if Kellhus is warring on the Outside to defeat the 100 and thus changing the nature of damnation, no big bad gods to munch on your souls. And, has faith that humanity can and will overcome the No-God. As CondYoke pointed out if the Gods can see all of time then if the world was ever shut, they couldnt see anything...ever. Meaning that somehow, someway humanity will defeat the No-God. Anyhow, your acting as if the story is complete and its not. There is still more to come.

And now they believe.  They should have no doubts whatsoever that the No-God is real and must be stopped.  They may even start worshiping Kellhus as some kind of martyred god- which could possibly be part of his plan all along.  There is definitely more story to be told.

I couldn't disagree more. The world ends so nothing matters? You could make the case that the events in the books matter precisely because they bring about the end of the world, but that is kind of beside the point. To me it wouldn't matter more if everyone ended up living happily ever after like in the Lord of the Rings. Its a fantasy world, its not real, it doesn't matter what happens to it either way. What matters is what happens to the person reading the books. To me it was an extremely interesting exploration of different philosophies as well as psychology, and it has definitely changed the way I think about things.

I'm pretty sure I've seen an interview with Bakker where he says he wanted to write about what it would be like to live in a world with an end point.  I reckon is how that end point comes about that is important.  If damnation is ended by butchering the population to such a degree that only 144,000 people are left alive, then I don't see that as a satisfactory resolution, and I'd suggest there may be other ways to achieve the same result that will come to light in the third series.

I agree about the philosophy and psychology.  Educational, and in a generally entertaining and engaging way.