Possible/plausible endings to TUC.
Lawful-Good Kellhus wins: he defeats the consults, learns some more magic, goes to the outside, defeats all evil, and the universe is saved - permanent heaven on earth (and everywhere else).
This is the version that people who think Kellhus is the good guy want/expect - at least as far as I can tell. IMO, this is the worst possible ending for the series as a whole. Really ruins everything. "Happily Ever After" is not the correct ending for The Second Apocalypse lol.
Neutral/Neutral Kellhus wins: Kellhus defeats consult, learns all the tekne things, leaves Earwa behind to its own demise and goes into the Outside, learns/conquers all the things there (turning it upside down in the process) and move on.
This the the "Kellhus is a means" accumulating machine" ending (the phrase coming form Bakker to describe what Kellhus is): accumulating means (power) for the sake of accumulation and no other purpose. This ending is uninteresting to me. You basically are left with everything Kellhus touches is consumed and left in ruins and the world(s) just kind of move on 'business as usual' and rebuilds, goes back the way it was, whatever. I don't think this makes for much of an ending.
Chaotic Evil Ajokli wins: Creates permanent hell on Earwa, turns the remaining consult into his horseman of the apocalypse (and/or angels of death), suffering without end for all time ensues.
This is the only ending I can see with Ajokli as the absolute winner. Kind of depressing, doesn't make sense for the story as a whole, and is way to clear cut. Nothing in TSA has been so clearly "evil wins, good loses" or vise versa.
New Consult wins: This is what happened. Things are left in flux. Its now a story about men struggling against men for human ends. The Consult now strive to shut the world against the gods. Not sure this is a bad things - the gods are all terrible, but the price is so high. The rest of humanity will strive against them. Whether they know it or not, its the choice about whether or not the cost is too high. Is the price to save humanity from eternal damnation worth damning (eternally) those who must be sacrificed? Can humanity even destroy the Consult now?
This ending is the one that happened and the one that makes sense. IMO, its the perfect ending. It fits all the plot elements, leaves things in a sort of perpetual uncertainty, and leaves open the door for more story to continue. None of the other options leave room for anything significant to happen. Kellhus winning and saving humanity is too much a fairy tale option and doesn't make any sense, and Ajoki winning flat out and turning reality into hell itself is just too depressing.
So yeah, I thought the ending was great in that it fits perfectly. No other option, either above or presented by anyone else, makes any sense given the story we have.
On that note, whether Bakker never publishes another book again or if he writes a whole book every year until he dies, I don't think there will be any more 'conclusion' than what we have here. This is how Earwa will exist, forever an unanswered, unsolvable mystery. We can get more books, more world building, more information, more plots and story lines, more striving against impossible odds, but I don't believe we will ever know the final fate of Earwa.
I honestly don't have expectations for the next books. I love being surprised, so while I have speculated as to what happens next and detailed an alternative ending ( I think I did, not so good researching old threads ), I'm not emotionally attached to the story "ending", doesn't have to satisfy me. I put myself in Bakker's hands and look forward to more, whatever it may be.
That all said, it's fun to speculate, if for no other reason it's fun to look back on what we think is happening to see how far off we were. As opposed to "outcome", I would like to see more Consult POV and enjoy flashbacks to their history so we can see how they perceived events, etc.
I love TUC ending as is, wouldn't change it. If I wrote the ending myself, not knowing how it ends, I would have had Kullhus find the loose thread of reality and pull it, undoing the 100 and refashioning reality were humans have a real chance at growth and salvation in that the gods have been holding us back. I had a detailed guess at what happens next, but still writing left handed from my wrist surgery, so taxing at the moment to reference it.
I have to admit I would find it disappointing to have an happy ending in a world and a story like this one. I have difficulty understanding how someone reading fantasy that grimdark could want that, but it's nice to see everybody have different expectations about the same story ;D !
I have to admit I would find it disappointing to have an happy ending in a world and a story like this one.
I think you'll be continuously surprised at the variety of people and perspectives you find here, should you stick around for a bit.
I honestly don't have expectations for the next books. I love being surprised, so while I have speculated as to what happens next and detailed an alternative ending ( I think I did, not so good researching old threads ), I'm not emotionally attached to the story "ending", doesn't have to satisfy me. I put myself in Bakker's hands and look forward to more, whatever it may be.
That all said, it's fun to speculate, if for no other reason it's fun to look back on what we think is happening to see how far off we were. As opposed to "outcome", I would like to see more Consult POV and enjoy flashbacks to their history so we can see how they perceived events, etc.
I love TUC ending as is, wouldn't change it. If I wrote the ending myself, not knowing how it ends, I would have had Kullhus find the loose thread of reality and pull it, undoing the 100 and refashioning reality were humans have a real chance at growth and salvation in that the gods have been holding us back. I had a detailed guess at what happens next, but still writing left handed from my wrist surgery, so taxing at the moment to reference it.
I have to admit I would find it disappointing to have an happy ending in a world and a story like this one. I have difficulty understanding how someone reading fantasy that grimdark could want that, but it's nice to see everybody have different expectations about the same story ;D !
Quote from: JabberwockI have to admit I would find it disappointing to have an happy ending in a world and a story like this one.
I always expected and want the same type of ending. In don't see it at all being happy, but rather bleak, but humans prevailing and having chance to rebuild civilization. I know others have expressed your sentiments, id just like to hear your opinion on why you don't/expect a "happy" ending.
lolQuote from: WilshireI think you'll be continuously surprised at the variety of people and perspectives you find here, should you stick around for a bit.
Just go ahead and say it Wilshire. MSJ is a sentimental wank and doesn't get what Bakker is doing. He's a hopeless romantic that tossed around the idea that Kellhus loved Esmenet (his only darkness). :)
lol
We've all got our things and I value your opinions :) .
You're going to take that sitting down, MSJ?! A clear insult if there ever was one! >:(:'( I'm so misunderstood.
:'( I'm so misunderstood.
...Interesting, I wouldn't have expected that from you. Did you end up finishing it post-rage-quit?
"Lawful/Good" camp (thanks to Wilshire for the breakdown).This is what I was kind of going with:
I honestly think Kellhus has found some Path he believes to be his route to the Absolute (his first and primary mission, before any exile), and outside the track of other mortals.The True Neutral stance is a tempting one. Given out of text discussion from Bakker, I'd say this is a pretty likely scenario. Given the in book worldbuilding and story as written, I don't think this can be case. Kellhus spent an awful lot of time doing things that a 'normal' dunyain wouldn't - whatever he was, he was a madman.
Bakker's books are about people who have been used for ends they will never know anything about.I'd add to this that a reoccurring theme is that people end up creating their own demise. So not only are most people not in control (despite thinking otherwise), they also end up creating the situation that leads to their fall.
So, great world building, with no "happy ending" in sight! I love it.
"Did you end up finishing it post-rage-quit?"You should finish it!
No. After the rage quit, I simply looked ahead to the end. I read spoilers too. I loved FFX too. AND X-2. :)
You should finish it!
Loved the book. Loved the series. Loved the ending.
I want the series to end with Outside Kellhus revealed and he used his own past self as a pawn. Basically Kell used himself just like he used Proyas.
Ugh, time paradoxes...Agreed, lol. So hard to not make it seem contrived.
Loved the book. Loved the series. Loved the ending.Can't say I 'loved' it. It made me go numb. But it was a great ending. :o
For the rest of what he's done, I think the "truth" can be found in asking whether what Kell is doing is actually altruistic or not. Certainly many of his followers believe it, and so do many readers! But I don't honestly think he has ever been saving anyone in the entire world other than himself.That's the big question. Is Kellhus in it for himself, or for everybody else? :-\
The orthodox Dunyain believe they'll find the Absolute via Techne. Kellhus believes he has found it through Gnosis/(greater Earwan metaphysics).
None of the rest of anyone else, or what happened to any of them matter in the slightest.
Bakker's books are about people who have been used for ends they will never know anything about.
My hopes for the final series is for some surviving force in Eärwa to find a way to defeat the Consult and the No-God. It was done once before, after all. But this time, the Ark itself needs to be destroyed.Or the No-God turns out to be something we (and the Consult) are not expecting :D
I disliked it. Bakker killed off all my favourite characters and spared the ones I don't like. And I disliked how dense the prose got towards the end; I'm still not quite sure what happened, I don't think I'll be until he explains it in the next book. I understand it's just become his style, but I'd appreciate a clearer prose.
I agree, though, this series has just begun. I mean, it's called the Second Apocalypse, and that's literally what began in the last book.
I disliked it. Bakker killed off all my favourite characters and spared the ones I don't like. And I disliked how dense the prose got towards the end; I'm still not quite sure what happened, I don't think I'll be until he explains it in the next book. I understand it's just become his style, but I'd appreciate a clearer prose.
I agree, though, this series has just begun. I mean, it's called the Second Apocalypse, and that's literally what began in the last book.
That's why it's awesome! It's kinda unexpected from a classic fantasy POV.
But you're right, Bakker does not appear to make simple enjoyment a clear goal of the series lol. Its almost like his intent is to make his readers uncomfortable. This, almost by definition, makes for a not-so-great story, no matter how interesting his prose and worldbuilding might be.I feel like I am the kind of reader that's not in it for the story. But I concur, without there actually being serious original thought, TSA would be unreadable. The same happens when you don't care about any kind of original thought or don't get it for whatever reason (this is not a criticism).
But you're right, Bakker does not appear to make simple enjoyment a clear goal of the series lol. Its almost like his intent is to make his readers uncomfortable. This, almost by definition, makes for a not-so-great story, no matter how interesting his prose and worldbuilding might be.What do you mean by "simple enjoyment" though? Classic storytelling endings where Kellhus destroys the Consult and conquers the Gods and everybody lives happily 8) ? I mean I enjoy the series, but I'm not sure if my enjoyment qualifies as simple. How do I simply enjoy Bakker?
But you're right, Bakker does not appear to make simple enjoyment a clear goal of the series lol. Its almost like his intent is to make his readers uncomfortable. This, almost by definition, makes for a not-so-great story, no matter how interesting his prose and worldbuilding might be.What do you mean by "simple enjoyment" though? Classic storytelling endings where Kellhus destroys the Consult and conquers the Gods and everybody lives happily 8) ? I mean I enjoy the series, but I'm not sure if my enjoyment qualifies as simple. How do I simply enjoy Bakker?
I disliked it. Bakker killed off all my favourite characters and spared the ones I don't like. And I disliked how dense the prose got towards the end; I'm still not quite sure what happened, I don't think I'll be until he explains it in the next book. I understand it's just become his style, but I'd appreciate a clearer prose.
I agree, though, this series has just begun. I mean, it's called the Second Apocalypse, and that's literally what began in the last book.
That's why it's awesome! It's kinda unexpected from a classic fantasy POV.
Perhaps, but it's hard to follow a story when you're not that much invested in the characters that are left alive.
Not that I'm not following, though...
I can relate a lot. For example, I would've never made it through God-Emperor of Dune if I didn't know (by spoiling the story a little bit) that the Tleilaxu would have a significant role to play in book 5 of the series. In TSA, I was really looking forward to finally getting to meet and talk to Shaeönanra (outside of The False Sun of course), so of course some dreams were shattered when it turned out he had died off-screen. Luckily for me, Bakker replaced him with some perhaps even more insane characters, The Mutilated!I disliked it. Bakker killed off all my favourite characters and spared the ones I don't like. And I disliked how dense the prose got towards the end; I'm still not quite sure what happened, I don't think I'll be until he explains it in the next book. I understand it's just become his style, but I'd appreciate a clearer prose.
I agree, though, this series has just begun. I mean, it's called the Second Apocalypse, and that's literally what began in the last book.
That's why it's awesome! It's kinda unexpected from a classic fantasy POV.
Perhaps, but it's hard to follow a story when you're not that much invested in the characters that are left alive.
Not that I'm not following, though...
I can't really relate to this. I hardly ever invest myself in the characters of books. I read books more for the story, I mean the events happening, than for the people doing the things.
I can like or dislike a character, but in either case I like following them as long as it's not boring.