The Second Apocalypse
Earwa => The Aspect-Emperor => The White-Luck Warrior => Topic started by: profgrape on November 21, 2013, 10:34:54 pm
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Some else that occurred to me after re-reading TJE and WLW: women are going to play a very important role in the AA series.
I can predict what that role is. But we know that RSB is a deliberate, intentional writer who doesn't hesitate to trim the fat if it doesn't server a specific purpose, for example, the "deleted scenes" in Atrithau where Khellus recruits his first followers. So all of the material involving female characters(Esme, Mimara, Serwa, Psatma), mother-child relationships, pregnancy and birth (Mimara, Yatwer, Womb Plague) *must* be building toward something big.
I just can't imagine RSB doing it just because -- he's too good for that. And it might just explain why he's seemingly amused by the accusations of misogyny.
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We'll see.
AFAIK we've ever gotten a good explanation for why women aren't recruited into the Schools, so I'm not so sure Bakker has considered his thematic plans all that well when it comes to women.
It seems that Mimara's womb will at least be a big deal since the JE apparently is the eye of the unborn, which is also God's viewpoint.
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It seems that Mimara's womb will at least be a big deal since the JE apparently is the eye of the unborn, which is also God's viewpoint.
Can you elaborate on this? Not ringing any bells for me.
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I just can't imagine RSB doing it just because -- he's too good for that. And it might just explain why he's seemingly amused by the accusations of misogyny.
Not that I'm groovy with the accusations of misogyny, but it's a bit like saying the universe is a benign entity --- if you just wait long enough, you'll see!
I think he may have succumbed to academic idealism in making such a turn around take so many pages to deliver, rather than serving genre.
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Some else that occurred to me after re-reading TJE and WLW: women are going to play a very important role in the AA series.
I can predict what that role is. But we know that RSB is a deliberate, intentional writer who doesn't hesitate to trim the fat if it doesn't server a specific purpose, for example, the "deleted scenes" in Atrithau where Khellus recruits his first followers. So all of the material involving female characters(Esme, Mimara, Serwa, Psatma), mother-child relationships, pregnancy and birth (Mimara, Yatwer, Womb Plague) *must* be building toward something big.
I just can't imagine RSB doing it just because -- he's too good for that. And it might just explain why he's seemingly amused by the accusations of misogyny.
+1. Layers of Revelation - which, of course, will rewrite the narrative entire and reframe all the speculative nerdanels nearest and dearest to us.
But haters gonna hate, pg.
Though, on trimming the fat, there is that one instance where a section with Cnaiur and Kellhus referencing Hearts before the Circumfixion was axed... which apparently leads to our endless debates on Kellhus and Serwe's Heart.
AFAIK we've ever gotten a good explanation for why women aren't recruited into the Schools, so I'm not so sure Bakker has considered his thematic plans all that well when it comes to women.
We know from Esmenet that her matrilineal line is of the Few and many practiced as Witches - she only didn't at the behest of her Mother, apparently because of the social grief it causes. We know from our own history that men don't exactly need reason or quality rationale as to barring woman from institutions in society (or even social positions of equal subjective value).
I honestly think Bakker doubts how much future revelations will or won't reframe the narrative, in this case. Because the only criticism I can actually concede that might eat at him is that taking six books to overturn what some see as narrative overkill in terms of the treatment of women, thus far, is too many books. Though, I would personally contend this with the narrative itself because I personally think there is as much feminism to read into in Bakker's books as there is in any feminist texts I've studied - trust me, as a school of philosophy some 'feminist texts' aren't exactly rigorous in contextualizing their 'evidence,' just like any school of philosophy has its less carefully articulate proponents.
However, as far as I think I could argue, I think that his womanly Layer of Revelation will forge another unique reading experience of the entire narrative.
It seems that Mimara's womb will at least be a big deal since the JE apparently is the eye of the unborn, which is also God's viewpoint.
Can you elaborate on this? Not ringing any bells for me.
"As far as I know," he [Achamian] begins with obvious and infuriating care, "those with the Judging Eye give birth to dead children."
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"The Judging Eye is the eye of the Unborn... the eye that watches from the God's own vantage."
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We know from Esmenet that her matrilineal line is of the Few and many practiced as Witches - she only didn't at the behest of her Mother, apparently because of the social grief it causes. We know from our own history that men don't exactly need reason or quality rationale as to barring woman from institutions in society (or even social positions of equal subjective value).
"Did I ever tell you," she said, flinching from these thoughts, "that my mother read the stars?"
"Dangerous," he replied, "especially in the Nansurim. Didn't she know the penalties?"
The prohibitions against astrology were as severe as those against witchcraft.
This is the only time I can recall Esmenet talking about her matrilineal line, and she only says her mother read the stars. Were they actually of the Few?
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"Did I ever tell you," she said, flinching from these thoughts, "that my mother read the stars?"
"Dangerous," he replied, "especially in the Nansurim. Didn't she know the penalties?"
The prohibitions against astrology were as severe as those against witchcraft.
This is the only time I can recall Esmenet talking about her matrilineal line, and she only says her mother read the stars. Were they actually of the Few?
The quote continues:
The future was too valuable to be shared with caste-menials. "Better to be a whore, Esmi," her mother would say. "Stones are nothing more than far-flung fists. Better to be beaten than to be burned..."
How old had she been? Eleven?
"She knew, which was why she refused to teach me..."
But either way, you're right, thanks Wielokropek. That is the third major lapse I've even experienced on this forum :(. It's why I try to ask questions rather than making claims. But thanks for marking my error. More damning still is that nowhere can I find an Esmenet perspective where she describes seeing the Mark.
Retracted
We know from Esmenet that her matrilineal line is of the Few and many practiced as Witches - she only didn't at the behest of her Mother, apparently because of the social grief it causes. We know from our own history that men don't exactly need reason or quality rationale as to barring woman from institutions in society (or even social positions of equal subjective value).
But what we can substitute what I did write with astrology instead of sorcery...
I initially laughed at Xerius' Augur in PON but as of TAE it seems to raise the legitimate question as to whether or not one can predict the future from the stars in Earwa universe?
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I never reconsidered that position. I guess its unfair to assume that you cannot predict the future with stars in Earwa.
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Esmenet probably does not see the mark because she is not one of the Few, despite coming from genetics in which it is common. This is why her mother actually did not teach her. And her mother lied to her and rather than tell her, "sorry you don't have the awesome abilities that tend to pop up in our family, you're such a genetic failure," her mother softens the blow and says, "I'm doing it to protect you, it's for your own good."
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It's an easy stretch of ambiguity.
For instance, Bakker marks the analogy between the socially respected power of the both sorcery and astrology (they're both persecuted equally).
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It would really add a whole 'nother dimension to the series. A group emerges that basically knows when and where the White-Luck is going to work Inevitability and either helps or hinders him?
... What comes after determines what comes before?
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... What comes after determines what comes before?
Mind blown!
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Doesn't that run into the usual problem of prediction - if you know what's going to happen, the more you interfear in it (deliberately or even just inadvertantly while hanging around), the more it spoils whatever means by which you knew what was going to happen?
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Doesn't that run into the usual problem of prediction - if you know what's going to happen, the more you interfear in it (deliberately or even just inadvertantly while hanging around), the more it spoils whatever means by which you knew what was going to happen?
Nah, history has inertia. and inertia is a force that counterbalances butterfly interference.
On a more silly level:
Bakker has agency. Bakker is in control of the narrative. therefore the narrative itself has agency and force. So the interference is managed and events are not just shit that happens, everything that is crafted in any secondary world/fictive universe is inherently at the will and agency of the author in question.
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Or everything happens as it was always going to happen. So whatever you do with your clairvoyant knowledge, it doesn't matter, because you were always going to do whatever you were going to do with your clairvoyant knowledge.
Our perception of Free Will, but even its actual metaphysical existence, can coexist with Divine Fate. Hell, the randomness of Free Will itself becomes an aspect of predetermination.
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So whatever you do with your clairvoyant knowledge, it doesn't matter, because you were always going to do whatever you were going to do with your clairvoyant knowledge.
That really only works out if there is a second time stream - the real one and the regular one, which is just a byproduct of the real one. Even then, the clairvoyant is by dint of the power, partially situated on the real time stream.
That or we retroactivly redefine clairvoyance into something fairly pointless.
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So who is responsible for the Celmoman prophecy?
I kinda suspect Kellhus thinks he is sending 'messages' back in time for himself from some point of ascension.
Aurang's assertion that both false and true prophecies must be respected implies to me that their clairvoyance is not absolute, but rather a struggle of possibilities ala the probability trance, only working backwards.
In a world where meaning explicitly can be leveraged to work alterations in the moment (i.e. sorcery), doesn't it make sense that the adage of victors writing history can be used to leverage the future somehow?
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In a world where meaning explicitly can be leveraged to work alterations in the moment (i.e. sorcery), doesn't it make sense that the adage of victors writing history can be used to leverage the future somehow?
Sure if time loops back and crosses itself, allowing for some interaction of future and past, then the winners must perpetuate themselves winning. Maybe those who can see the Onta see some kind of overlay of past/present/future, and are therefore the only ones who really have any kind of free will at all. The bruising of the Onta is some kind of perversion of nature because the wielder destroys possibilities that once existed
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I kinda suspect Kellhus thinks he is sending 'messages' back in time for himself from some point of ascension.
Celmomas mistakes Kellhus for Nau-Cayuti in his pre-mortem visions. I've long suspected this but to hear it echoed by another ;)...
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“He says . . . says such sweet things to give me comfort . . . He says that one of my seed will return, Seswatha. An Anasûrimbor will return—
He is Nau here.
So you think that Kellhus was telling the old king that one of his seed would return? I guess that could make sense. That way no matter what Anasurimbor returns, they will be protected by the Mandate (reminds me of the Bene Geserit's seeding false prophesies accross the galaxy to protect their own).
It could have been any future Anasurimbor that sent that message though, but mostly it might have been Moenghus (except he was blind, so maybe not).
Another possiblity, regarding the prophesy, the kind claims that the "sun flares". Akka likens himself to a "mask held against the sun", or something similar. Perhaps the dead king was seeing the sorcerous light streaming from his "son's" face.
Any physical description of Nau laying around?
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Kell has talked to the Seswatha homunculous. Akka knows what Nau looks like from his dreams. I'm sure it would be a peice o piss to appear as Nau; sending dreams through thousands of years would be the hard bit.
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Retroactively, it is an easy fit to be convinced of.
Achamian offers reflection a few times on the striking resemblances between Celmomas in his Dreams and Kellhus, c. when they first meet. As noted, if the Mandate believe, preemptively, that "an Anasurimbor will return" and Kellhus knows that Celmomas dies in the Mandate founder's arms... Seemingly simple dream-communication with a second inutteral for 'across time' rather than 'across space.'
Though, it seems we could only be discussing this about a Bakker book. I mean, we're questioning the gods-damned narrative structure to posit bullshit and it makes sense.
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In a world where meaning explicitly can be leveraged to work alterations in the moment (i.e. sorcery), doesn't it make sense that the adage of victors writing history can be used to leverage the future somehow?
Sure if time loops back and crosses itself, allowing for some interaction of future and past, then the winners must perpetuate themselves winning. Maybe those who can see the Onta see some kind of overlay of past/present/future, and are therefore the only ones who really have any kind of free will at all. The bruising of the Onta is some kind of perversion of nature because the wielder destroys possibilities that once existed
I really hope there's no time travel in the series. I think I don't like time travel in narratives unless its comedy. Harry Potter has this problem:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YsYWT5Q_R_w
Rant by Palahniuk didn't work for me because of the time travel. Plus he's getting repetitive. :(
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Yet my First Apocalypse nerdanel depends on Time Travel. Via dreams for Achamian, and via Tekne for Kellhus.
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Yet my First Apocalypse nerdanel depends on Time Travel. Via dreams for Achamian, and via Tekne for Kellhus.
Oh yeah--I remember now! I guess when I read about your idea (I don't know who else is in this camp?) that my mind ran with it and I was thinking that Bakker would build up TUC to a final terrifying moment that would leave the reader on a cliff hanger. Not that there would be NO resolution, there would be lots, but beyond that there would be some kind of epic unanswered question hanging and the answer would entirely depend on the 'darkness that came before' or some decision that an ancient character had made in the 1st apocalypse. Like if Seswatha chose to lay the foundation for the Consult's ultimate defeat or if he chose to damn the world to a never ending cycle of No-God return/demise. Then the whole next series would detail the 1st apocalypse and terminate in the moment that made sense of the whole series.
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I would be impressed if Bakker did something like that.
My nerdanel depends on the First Apocalypse as historically recorded hasn't actually "happened" yet... that everything happens at once and time is a dimension of space and locality and so living the events as they happened is simply how you experienced them happening as they have always happened... I over-studied for my Asian & Native American philosophy midterm.
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it reminds me of the theory that Dumbledore was really old-Harry or old-Ron time traveled back in time to guide them along.
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Madness - there's this story by Ted Chiang "The Story of Your Life" that explores this idea. I found it fascinating, because it's science-fiction, where the "science" element is mostly linguistics (my major).
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it reminds me of the theory that Dumbledore was really old-Harry or old-Ron time traveled back in time to guide them along.
I really wanted it to be Ron. :)
I liked time travel in How To Live Safely in a Science Fictional Universe.
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Madness - there's this story by Ted Chiang "The Story of Your Life" that explores this idea. I found it fascinating, because it's science-fiction, where the "science" element is mostly linguistics (my major).
I'm going to buy a book of his shorts. Sounds interesting.
I'm never sure I like this Dumbledore Time-Turner scenario.