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Also note that on page 491  Saccarees himself destroys the grandmaster of the Vokalati, and is then attacked by "fairly half the Vokalati", who he also presumably destroys. He of course survives this, but what a powerful schoolman to take out half a school by himself unscathed.

If I recall correctly his only confirmed kill was the grandmaster. He does survive the attack of most of the Vokalati but then the Mandate get in on the whole infighting buisness. But then he is supposedly a lot more capable then Akka. So one can assume it would take a lot of Anagogic Schoolmen to take him down with certainty.

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No not really. There is no hard description of what went on after the death of the grandmaster. Which is why I said presumably. What is said is "And so did the Schools of the Mandate and Vokalati consume each other in a final act of madness".

Though that description is clearly incorrect since on the next page it starts talking about how the Schoolmen are all alone and Saccarees comes down to find Umrapathur's body. Clearly an Anagogic school whos grandmaster was so easily dispatched and who has half of their force focused on a single member of the opposition would not in any way be able to "destroy" the Gnostic Mandate.

There is also no mention of a single other Mandate schoolman helping out Saccarees after he is beset. From the description it would seem that he himself destroyed the Vokalati, though it is possible that he simply just kept singing wards and let the rest of the Mandate obliterate the Vokalati one by one.

And one more thing, you said it would take "a lot of Anagogic Schoolmen". Wouldn't half a school constitute as "a lot"? From TTT the few are called the few for a reason. Half a school is a significant number of the total schoolmen in the world. They did have a lot, perhaps a chorus larger than any in history focused on a single target, and somehow he comes out unscathed? Sure maybe he is just lucky, or maybe he is just that much better than any other schoolmen and yet still just human. Or, perhaps, he is something more.

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I'm going to hazard a guess that the Swayali represent the majority of the Ordeal's sorcerous strength at this point. Bakker classically understates episodes, like Wilshire's quote, throughout the series, which then find themselves front & center in the successive books.

Also, I think its likely that the Dunyain remain in Ishual. It strikes me as a fairly obvious strategy in order to hide themselves from the world further. But I'd guess that Achamian isn't going to find the answers he seeks there...

Plus, from what was hinted in the comments at TPB, Bakker implies that Achamian and Mimara would only be spending the first chapter wrapping up their time at Ishual.

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A couple of observations:

1. I don't know why I was surprised to find the Dunyain gone from Ishual.  Stupidity, I guess.  Given their experience with Moenghus, there is every reason for them to remove themselves from Ishual after sending out Kellhus.  Of course, there is the possibility that Kellhus himself somehow went back and exterminated all the remaining Dunyain, but logistically that seems improbable.

2. Why The Second Apocalypse is so great: just look at the discussion provoked by this little tidbit.  5 books in, and yet the central mysteries of the story are still unsolved.  And these mysteries MATTER greatly.  Their resolution (I think we should all pray for Bakker's health and well being to whichever gods we can find -- just think of the horror!  the HORROR! -- if he should get into a car accident before finishing these books!  OMG I can't even...) will literally shake the foundation of the world.  What other high fantasy book can say the same?

This really goes to the heart of fantasy.  One of the genre's early practitioners, H.P. Lovecraft, lamented that in this modern age "wonder left the mind of man."  Well, these books certainly bring us wonder and horror like no other.

Also, lockesnow -- love, love, love your "math thesis."  I've always suspected that calculus is the tool of the devil, invented to torment young students.  Now I know for sure.  :lol:

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I somehow missed Triscuit's contributions from a a few weeks ago:

If this were possibly true, wouldn't we need to assume that The Consult was well-aware of this?

I don't think it's a bluff on the part of the author or the skin spies that Moe has interrogated that The Consult does indeed believe that it is close to reviving the No-God. 

So if The Mandate was somehow playing a part with a key object, wouldn't The Consult need to get it back?  Kind of like how Seswatha (we're told) needed to get the Heron Spear out of the Ark?

What if the Consult is fooled as well as everyone else.  Three can keep a secret if two of them are dead.  If the truth of the heart is something Seswatha kept to himself and he created this elaborate tale of how his heart was to be used/preserved he can hide the heart in plain sight, with the Mandate and the Consult none-the-wiser.  Particularly if no one outside the Mandate is aware of the Heart.  Considering how well Seswatha resists all torture of Achamian, I'd think the Heart is tremendous secret, otherwise the Scarlet Spires or rival schools would have tried to steal the heart to gain the gnosis.  Presumably Nautzera was replaced after the Grasping.  This then begs the question of why Nautzera didn't destroy the heart, as that would be the most effective way of destroying the Mandate, perhaps even after replacing Nautzera, the Consult was somewhat clueless of the significance of the ceremony called the Grasping?

It's interesting that Shae/Shaur mentions that NC's wife was motivated to forestall her damnation. 

Ahem, that'd be pretty huge motivation for Esmenet as well, if she betrays Kellhus, the Ordeal and all Mankind in an attempt to forestall her own damnation, perhaps this is why the Narindar is next to her, she plays the role of Ieva.

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Sure maybe he is just lucky, or maybe he is just that much better than any other schoolmen and yet still just human. Or, perhaps, he is something more.

But the fact that he was the first to master the third innuteral already makes him a better sorcerer than everyone else. Him surviving the attack of a great number of inferior schoolmen in rather murky circumstances adds nothing to the argument. We don't know how the 3rd adds to fighting ability and we don't know how powerful the Vokalati are. And since the whole confrontation was fought under a fog of lyricism we don't really know how many of them could focus on his wards at any one time.

Now suppose the new Mandate curriculum isn't just that awesome and he is indeed Dunyani. Where does he come from? The obvious answer is Ishual. Which leads me to two conclusions:

Kellhus was the one who destroyed it.
He probably brought along more than one.

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Thats the entire argument really. He mastered the third innuteral and who else did? Serwa. Half dunyain, and only able to finish a couple of the teleportation cants before taking a nap. Though that could be a farce of some kind, its not important. The fact is that throughout history there was only rumors of 1 being able to do the third innuteral, and that just a rumor. Then Kell comes along and figures that shit out right away. Then his daughter.

Then some random dude comes along and says, oh hey yeah I bet I could do that. BOOM, innuterals. If it only took, say 20 years, to master the third innuteral, there would be more meta-gnostic users.

Also, surviving against many other schoolmen does add something to the argument and shouldn't just be dismissed out of hand. This, because very few other can do that. And, like I said above, thats the whole argument. Some guy shows up at random and can destroy/fend-off another school in the midst of a huge battle is no small feat.

Anyway, I can't tell if you are actually disagreeing for a purpose or just for the sake of the argument, since your last few lines agree, I think, with the point of it all: that there could be Dunyain walking among the other soldiers in the Ordeal, and the new Mandate prodigy could be one of them.

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Ahem, that'd be pretty huge motivation for Esmenet as well, if she betrays Kellhus, the Ordeal and all Mankind in an attempt to forestall her own damnation, perhaps this is why the Narindar is next to her, she plays the role of Ieva.

Completely agree. The parallels are all there.
Now we just need a persuasive rape alien and some strong drugs (i guess the inverse fire could work too).

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Anyway, I can't tell if you are actually disagreeing for a purpose or just for the sake of the argument, since your last few lines agree, I think, with the point of it all: that there could be Dunyain walking among the other soldiers in the Ordeal, and the new Mandate prodigy could be one of them.

A bit of both really. I just felt you double counted your arguments. He is the most powerful Mandate Schoolman to ever walk the earth and reminds people of the Aspectemperor. Now the last part isn't all that unlikely even for baseline humans. Following after Jesus and all.

The first point is very unlikely indeed. For several thousand years no one managed to figure out how to use the 3rd inutteral. And here he is. On the other hand for two thousand years nobody got the Gnosis to work without being taught.

I'm leaning toward Dunyain, but I can't discount the possibility of him being a red herring. Or maybe a Ciphrang.

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Of course, there is the possibility that Kellhus himself somehow went back and exterminated all the remaining Dunyain, but logistically that seems improbable.

Why? Seems maybe a couple of hours work?

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Of course, there is the possibility that Kellhus himself somehow went back and exterminated all the remaining Dunyain, but logistically that seems improbable.

Why? Seems maybe a couple of hours work?

Once he gets there, sure.  But I seem to recall Kellhus being utterly exhausted just "translocating" his way back to Momemn from Sakarpus.  To go from Momemn to Ishual then back?  Possible, but I think improbable.

Another question: just how could Achamian dream of being Nau-Cayuti?  Any conjectures?

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Wilshire - You summed up my thoughts on Saccarees very well. 

From your two quotes on the previous page, I would say that the first isn't much by itself, but it's the second that makes it intriguing. 

And w/ the inutterals, to play devil's advocate, I suspect that if Kellhus were teaching, it might be more likely for others to learn them.  But then again at the same time we're to believe that Saccarees is either the 3rd or 4th person in history to pull it off.

The previous three were a Nonman Quyan savant, Kellhus, and Serwa, a Gnostic witch w/half Dunyain blood.  When you look at those three, it seems more difficult to believe that Saccarees is just some special guy within the Mandate and that's it.  Not impossible, but I don't think we can dismiss the possibility that he's Dunyain.

Another thing I'm really anxious to learn about in the next book:  If Kellhus destroyed Ishual and if he took a few Dunyain with him (like Saccarees), how did he decide which to take?  Two big "ifs" I realize.

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Of course, there is the possibility that Kellhus himself somehow went back and exterminated all the remaining Dunyain, but logistically that seems improbable.

Why? Seems maybe a couple of hours work?

Once he gets there, sure.  But I seem to recall Kellhus being utterly exhausted just "translocating" his way back to Momemn from Sakarpus.  To go from Momemn to Ishual then back?  Possible, but I think improbable.

I'm rather thinking the fatigue is a ruse.

Another question: just how could Achamian dream of being Nau-Cayuti?  Any conjectures?

The unfun answer is that Kellhus programmed it in.

Or the whole prophet of the past thing is actually true kinda like the judging eye is true. Somehow what souls go through goes on record?

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Another thought on Saccarees:

His surname is Apperens, right? 

It is reminiscent of "apparent" but also "apprendre" which is French for "to learn," and that is also related to "apprehension" in English.  If Kellhus was going to slap a name on a Dunyain, that seems like a pretty good one.

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regarding the inutteral thing, Achamian was able to "hand" an inutteral off to Mimara with the "ball of light" in TJE, why couldn't Kellhus just "hand" a bundled set of inutteral to Saccares since Saccares is leading the Mandate.  This would be a great way to create such a leader within the Mandate, and because they're utterly dependent on Kellhus having given them the inutteral, ensures both the person's secrecy and loyalty.

In other words, Saccares may not know how to make multiple inutterals work, but Kellhus gave him a shortcut that allows him to use them.  If he kept the spell active but dormant ala latent wards, he would always have it to hand, even if he didn't really know how to build one himself.