The Second Apocalypse

Earwa => The Prince of Nothing => The Darkness That Comes Before => Topic started by: Wolfdrop on December 23, 2017, 12:31:27 pm

Title: Inrau and the Cants of Compulsion
Post by: Wolfdrop on December 23, 2017, 12:31:27 pm
So I’m listening to the audiobook version of TDTCB and it’s brought up something I remember wondering over on my first read.

When Inrau first comes to meet Akka at the tavern, is he under the influence of a Cant of Compulsion? The whole sequence he’s in a dreamlike state, and describes “Words that battered whatever will remained to him. Words that walked with his limbs.”

And when he arrives “light spilling from his working mouth. Flakes of sun in his eyes.”

When Akka stops everything seems to come back into focus. All the evidence points at a Cant.

Now here’s my confusion.

1) He later rules out Compelling Inrau as it would leave him with the Mark, and would out him to the Thousand Temples.

2) Wouldn’t Sarcellus and the Shrial Knights noticed him Canting?

Title: Re: Inrau and the Cants of Compulsion
Post by: MSJ on December 23, 2017, 01:15:26 pm
The audio book must be different. I've read TDTCB 7 times and cannot recall any of that happening to Inrau in the meeting at the bar/pub.
Title: Re: Inrau and the Cants of Compulsion
Post by: Wolfdrop on December 23, 2017, 06:26:54 pm
I checked my paper copies after reading, both Orbit and Penguin editions and it’s there.

It’s easy missed, I believe it’s the second time we ever see sorcery in the series after the Nonman showdown in the prologue. I totally glossed over it on my first read, before we know much about the metaphysics.
Title: Re: Inrau and the Cants of Compulsion
Post by: MSJ on December 23, 2017, 09:36:01 pm
Oh maybe its because Akka is ready to use sorcery on the Shrial Knights, he thinks his cover is blown. He never used it on Inrau, and never would.
Title: Re: Inrau and the Cants of Compulsion
Post by: Wolfdrop on December 24, 2017, 12:30:08 pm
It’s before that encounter.

I’ve seen it’s been discussed on the reddit reread.

I’m torn somewhere between only continued use of Compulsion leaves the Mark, or that Akka is lying to himself.

I’m 100% sure Inrau is Compelled to come to the initial meeting. Full section attached.

“In his dream, Inrau walked through canyons of burnt brick, through faces and figures illuminated by rags of torchlight. And he heard a voice from nowhere, crying through his bones, across every finger’s-breadth of his skin, speaking words like the shadows of fists striking just beyond the corner of his eyes. Words that battered whatever will remained to him. Words that walked with his limbs.

He glimpsed the sagging facade of a tavern, then a low, golden-dim enclosure of smoke, tables, and overhead beams. The entrance enveloped him. The rising ground tipped forward, directed him toward a malevolent blackness in the far corner of the room. It too enveloped him—another entrance. Everything rushed into the bearded man, his head slack against the chapped stucco, his face on a lazy, upward angle, but tight with some forbidden ecstasy—light spilling from his working mouth. Flakes of sun in his eyes.

Achamian . . .

Then the impossible mutter trailed into the rumble of patrons. The murky interior of the tavern became sturdy and mundane. The nightmarish angles squared. The play of light and shadow became crisp.

“What are you doing here?” Inrau sputtered, struggling to clear his thoughts.”

Title: Re: Inrau and the Cants of Compulsion
Post by: MSJ on December 24, 2017, 12:45:04 pm
No shit!! I never noticed it. Thanks for the quote!
Title: Re: Inrau and the Cants of Compulsion
Post by: Dora Vee on December 24, 2017, 06:44:35 pm
Cants of Compulsion on Inrau? :( I never noticed that. Maybe Akka should have used that on Proyas.
Title: Re: Inrau and the Cants of Compulsion
Post by: MSJ on December 25, 2017, 03:13:10 pm
Quote from:  Dora Vee
]Cants of Compulsion on Inrau? :( I never noticed that. Maybe Akka should have used that on Proyas.

Yes. Its something I've never noticed. But, when I have time is like to read it in context.
Title: Re: Inrau and the Cants of Compulsion
Post by: Knee that Bends on December 25, 2017, 08:18:15 pm
Thanks Wolfdrop! Great find! I never noticed that, very interesting. Probably like most people, I wouldn't have thought akka would do that, it changes my whole perception of that scene.
Title: Re: Inrau and the Cants of Compulsion
Post by: Wolfdrop on December 26, 2017, 12:32:09 am
Yeah, I totally glossed on first read. I knew something was up but wasn't familiar enough with the setting to put my finger on it.

Reading it with eyes tuned to the telltale signs of sorcery it seems really obvious.

But as with all things in this series it simply raises more questions. Why is he averse to Compelling spying but not the meeting. If using the Compulsion on someone gives them the Mark, shouldn't that have damned Inrau and outed him as a sorcerer during his showdown with the Consult? The justification for not using the Cants of Compulsion comes...right after he uses them.

It's tragic, but I loved that in his final moments, Inrau becomes a badass and unleashes some scraps of the Gnosis, though that ultimately cost him his soul.

I swear I forget about all these things during AMA's and squander my questions on why the umlauts aren't consistent and spelling mistakes.  :(
Title: Re: Inrau and the Cants of Compulsion
Post by: MSJ on December 26, 2017, 02:20:10 am
Wolfdrop, I just read the scene and it has to be a compulsion. Or, its what it seems to be. But, it is the same meeting as the Shrial Knights. Maybe it wasn't a Compulsion, which we know is a way to gain info (which Akka said he was against vehemently, and I truly don't think he would use it.). I think it might have been a calling of some kind, you know, to get Inrau where he could talk to him in private and let him know why he was in Summa. To me, I don't think it was a Can't of Compulsion. But, I do believe it was a way the Akka uses to lure someone where he wants them. We know what the Compulsions do, look no further then Xinemus. I don't think for one second it was a Compulsion. But, I do believe sorcery was at work.

Here's what I think, I think it was a Can't of Calling. And what Inrau's inner dialogue is, is of Akka sending to him. And, this makes sense and also adds up. Moe sent dreams to Ishual and no Mark was left, per Kellhus (another argument, but I believe and can offer proof that Kellhus got those dreams, just read the Leweth sections.). Hence no mark. And, Akka planted the info in Inrau dreams to meet him at the bar. Another thing that makes me know its not a compulsion is that their in Summa. Home of the Thousand Temples, a spy sorcerers worse nightmare. No, it was a calling to get Inrau to where he needed him, without risking the Temple, Shrial Knights and the College of Luthemaye.

Still, great find.
Title: Re: Inrau and the Cants of Compulsion
Post by: Wolfdrop on December 26, 2017, 12:58:54 pm
Hmm I definitely like idea of a Cant of Calling, but what confuses me if how immediate he goes from the dreamlike state to physically being there.

I had thought the purpose of the Cant was to force Inrau to meet him.

Doesn’t a Cant of Calling depend on the sender knowing the exact location of the sleeping receiver, hence how Moenghus could send the dreams.

Man, this is a mindfuck.
Title: Re: Inrau and the Cants of Compulsion
Post by: Wilshire on December 26, 2017, 03:55:48 pm
Cant of Calling - exclusively used to speak with a sleeping person what you know the location of. I doubt Inrau was sleeping and that Akka knew where he was.

Very interesting section :) as do pretty much all of Inrau's sections.
Inrau's sequences have lots of oddities in them and even retcons/mistakes, I struggle to use any of them to draw meaningful conclusions. He does seem to be rather distracted, but he spends much of the time we have with him hearing voices and feeling compelled to do things.

Its also extremely odd that Akka is using sorcery at all. WTF is that about? Sitting in a crowded bar with shrial knights nearby probably bearing chorae, in a city that abhors magic and is on the brink of war.

If Inrau was being compelled or otherwise directed via sorcery to meet with Akka, maybe it was by some other third party? Who's at play here?
Consult: Soulbearing Skin spies, not to mention the proximity of Aurang. Could be they were going to use Inrau to gain information from Akka about the Mandate in some way. They were trying to turn him later before Inrau suicided.
Dunyain: Maithanet/Moenghus might have wanted them to meet. Psuke at play still - Maybe Maithanet himself was a Puskari, or less speculative and more likely he had one of the Water-Bearers on staff hidden somewhere. Plenty of blind beggars around Sumna I'm sure.
Mandate: Maybe one of them, another field operative or something, was helping move things along.

In the event that is wasn't Akka, its possible in Akka's distressed state he missed a faint mark on Inrau? I know that seems unlikely but we know he wasn't much of a spy lol. That, or the mark is erased post-use, as you guys mentioned above. That seem unlikely because battlegrounds and other objects are scared with sorcery after use, but there are several mechanics in TDTCB (more so than in other novels) that were removed/changed in later books, this might be some kind of error?

Akka using cants of compulsion on Inrau makes no sense story-wise, so I find that the least likely explanation.
Title: Re: Inrau and the Cants of Compulsion
Post by: MSJ on December 26, 2017, 05:07:48 pm
I agree with you here Wilshire. Its definitely not Compulsion. I can't reckon Akka using sorcery in a bar in Summa, with the way sorcery is seen in that city.

Why I say that Akka used a Cant of Calling is because it wouldn't be hard for a spy to find out where his former apprentice slept. And, Inrau's musings can be that of a dream he had while thinking about it on the way to the bar.


Anyway, its a great find, no doubt about it.
Title: Re: Inrau and the Cants of Compulsion
Post by: Wilshire on December 26, 2017, 05:38:51 pm
Why I say that Akka used a Cant of Calling is because it wouldn't be hard for a spy to find out where his former apprentice slept. And, Inrau's musings can be that of a dream he had while thinking about it on the way to the bar.
Of, that's a fair point, and also obvious lol, I should have seen what you meant.
So you're saying Inrau's sequence is him simply reflecting on the dream he was sent, and his initial view of Akka casting in the bar was in the dream.
His "what are you doing here" comment was the first thing we hear/see him do in real-space (as opposed to dream-space)? Makes sense.
Title: Re: Inrau and the Cants of Compulsion
Post by: MSJ on December 26, 2017, 06:42:32 pm
Quote from:  Wilshire
Of, that's a fair point, and also obvious lol, I should have seen what you meant.
So you're saying Inrau's sequence is him simply reflecting on the dream he was sent, and his initial view of Akka casting in the bar was in the dream.
His "what are you doing here" comment was the first thing we hear/see him do in real-space (as opposed to dream-space)? Makes sense.

You got it. Wilshire, by now, you should know it takes 3 to 4 posts for me to correctly convey what I mean. In the end you got it! ;)

I can't remember the name of Akka's Shrial Knights informant, but, he could easily give Akka the place where Inrau sleeps. And, lets think about it. Its the easiest way for Akka to go undetected and gain a meeting with Inrau. I'm pretty sure that's what happened.
Title: Re: Inrau and the Cants of Compulsion
Post by: Wolfdrop on December 26, 2017, 10:17:04 pm
For me, theres no clear answer.

The Cant used doesn't match the Cants of Calling or Compulsion exclusively, but I'm leaning towards some kind of minor Compulsion to puppet him to the meeting. Fuck it, I'm calling it a Cant of Locomotion and saying that it's never used again in the series to put my OCD at rest.

What I can't understand is using sorcery in Sumna, even hidden by a hood or facing a wall or whatever, seems totally nonsensical.

Given that there's ideas in TDTCB that never fully developed is this one of them? One off spells we never see again before the magic system was set in stone? Again, Inrau's superhuman speed, exploding fiery blood spells etc come to mind. There's also the Nonman "levitating" back to his feet in the initial fight with Kellhus, something that's never seen again.

Title: Re: Inrau and the Cants of Compulsion
Post by: MSJ on December 26, 2017, 10:55:02 pm
Quote from:  Wolfdrop
Given that there's ideas in TDTCB that never fully developed is this one of them?

Very good possibility, or, you could just relent to my unsurpassed knowledge, lol. ;)

Its very neat. Especially, like I said, I've read TDTCB 7 times at least. And, there's always tidbits you miss no matter how many times you read. Hence, the forum.

OCD, I'm running from you Wolfdrop. The wife has OCD when it comes to the house. She can be very fierce.

Quote
For me, theres no clear answer.

Well, yeah, but it brings life to the forum and I've had a blast speculating on it and reading others. Keep the surprises coming.
Title: Re: Inrau and the Cants of Compulsion
Post by: JerakoKayne on January 05, 2018, 08:05:18 pm
It was most definitely sorcery, and Achamian has practice using it, as well as hiding it, in public places. He's not staring at the Shrial Knights with lit eyes (and perhaps only the Few see the actual light from eyes/mouth?).

He's being conspicuous while being inconspicuous. The Shrial Knights have better things to pay attention to.

That said, the Mark stuff is what gave me pause at first, too. My best guess is Achamian is working a temporary version of the Cant. (The Mark is visible while operable) It is only when the current effects permanantly Compel the subject (i.e. permanently Compel) that the mark of the sorcery is permanently visible.

But when Achamian was done, and had Inrau where he needed him, the Cant (and thus the Mark) were completely released. Inrau didn't have a permanent Mark because he wasn't permanently Compelled.
Title: Re: Inrau and the Cants of Compulsion
Post by: MSJ on January 05, 2018, 08:15:53 pm
The light from sorcery is seen by everyone. There are 1000 descriptions of it throughout the series.

Its hard to take TDTCB into account on certain subject. Skin-Spies is an example. They took that Shrial Knights face, but they don't need his face. This could be another "thing" Bakker hasn't fully fleshed out. Nevertheless, its an awesome find.
Title: Re: Inrau and the Cants of Compulsion
Post by: Wilshire on January 05, 2018, 09:02:26 pm
The problem with 'temporary marks' is that we don't really see any of those either. When something is blasted with a Cant, it gets marked, even if it wasn't the intended target. See any description of a battlefield, especially in TJE and beyond. Akka (or Mim?) mentions that the trees bare the mark around his tower, and there are musings on the grounds post-battles (and even how anagogis and gnosis marks differ).

Not saying you're wrong, just putting the information out there.
Title: Re: Inrau and the Cants of Compulsion
Post by: MSJ on January 05, 2018, 09:09:09 pm
There are no temporary marks, correct. And, for the life of me I can't see Akka working sorcery in a bar in Sumna..

I think it is just Inrau contemplating a dream on his way to the bar. So maybe a Can't of Calling were the receiver doesn't get a Mark.
Title: Re: Inrau and the Cants of Compulsion
Post by: TaoHorror on January 05, 2018, 10:57:03 pm
This is likely simply an inconsistency, I think Akka was using sorcery to get him there. That said, could be this particular Cant doesn't directly impact the target - like affecting the stimuli around the subject which in effect draws the subject closer but is unmarked since it the sorcery didn't directly "touch" him ... lame, I know, but we sorta saw the same thing when Akka escaped captivity knocking something over which sent a spark into the chorae wielder's eye ( forget what it was, a brazier I think ) - not only did sorcery effect someone with chorae ( should be impossible, but proximate cause allowed it ), it probably didn't leave a mark as well.
Title: Re: Inrau and the Cants of Compulsion
Post by: Wilshire on January 05, 2018, 11:55:07 pm
"...lame" was my exact thought lol.

Akka going Super-Seswatha when he breaks out does many things to the chorae bearers. Memorably, he collapse a whole floor on top of a group of Javrhe (spelling).
So yeah, one step removed is sufficient to avoid a chorae and therefore, I would guess, a mark.
Title: Re: Inrau and the Cants of Compulsion
Post by: TaoHorror on January 06, 2018, 03:57:18 am
"...lame" was my exact thought lol.

Akka going Super-Seswatha when he breaks out does many things to the chorae bearers. Memorably, he collapse a whole floor on top of a group of Javrhe (spelling).
So yeah, one step removed is sufficient to avoid a chorae and therefore, I would guess, a mark.

Well, that's my point ... my explanation is lame, but can't explain it any other way if it wasn't an inadvertent inconsistency or sorcery wasn't employed ( just don't find the he was dreaming while going to Akka compelling - off beat and somewhat complicated to artfully express that thinking we the readers would figure that out - if not for the discussion here about the "mark", don't think that avenue would've been explored - just does not read that way to me ).
Title: Re: Inrau and the Cants of Compulsion
Post by: Wolfdrop on January 07, 2018, 01:09:02 pm
I don’t buy that it’s not sorcery and just a dream state/remembering either.

Simply using sorcery wouldn’t immediately make everyone see the light. Yes, further in the series everyone can see Gnostic War Cants but the glowing eyes and mouth can be hidden. They are in fact hidden by their cowls by sorcerers later in the series.

The thunderous voice that comes from everywhere seems to be associated with certain Cants. I doesn’t seem to happen with the Cants of Compulsion and Calling or the Agonies when used on Seswatha.

There’s no doubt it’s risky, and a bit of an inconsistency. But I don’t think there’s anything to suggest using sorcery immediately points it out to everyone nearby.

I think the face removal thing was originally going to be expanded upon more, but in the case of the Javreh Shield-Captain Geshrunni, I’m happy enough with the explanation that they removed his face to both be more brutal because they enjoy it, and to render indentifying th body more difficult if it’s found. I’m assuming a replacement skin-spy took his place.

For me, the real problem here lies in the unwillingness to stain Inrau with the Mark.
Title: Re: Inrau and the Cants of Compulsion
Post by: Wilshire on January 08, 2018, 01:26:28 pm
For me, the real problem here lies in the unwillingness to stain Inrau with the Mark.
That's really the line that creates the most problem. Certainly without that line, there's really no reason to assume that Akka did anything special or unusual here.  Probably a needless risk to do it in a crowded room, but not unfathomably so. No one ever claimed Akka was a good spy ;) .

I don't think anyone was claiming that the booming voice is intrinsic to all sorcery, but I agree that its certainly not. Akka even specifically does a cool little whisper-one-hit-kill Cant when he gets attacked in the Library. The light is obviously non-negotiable, but you'd expect him to be smart enough to put his hood up and look down at the floor when canting in public.