[Wilshire]

Well its an abstraction with purpose though. S
omewhere in between absolute agency, which is what men believe it is, and absolute nothing, which is what the dunyain assumed.

Those extremes are the easiest to conceive of. What would be something in-between?

[H]

Well its an abstraction with purpose though. S
omewhere in between absolute agency, which is what men believe it is, and absolute nothing, which is what the dunyain assumed.

Those extremes are the easiest to conceive of. What would be something in-between?

I don't think I am smart enough to figure that out.  I still think it's some kind of God-hood, but I can't quite follow it...

But here is another thought, if Koringhus' compassion and madness are representative, then is his leap and death foreshadowing what Kellhus is building toward?

I've kind of always had a feeling that the end game was him sacrificing himself to achieve God-hood.

[Madness]

"The Four-Horned Brother..." the long-haired man was saying. "Do you know why he is shunned by the others? Why my Cult and my Cult alone is condemned in the Tusk?"
"Ajokli is the Fool," he heard himself reply.
The long-haired man smiled. "He only seems such because he sees what the others do not see... What you do not see."
"I have no need of seeing."

That is the only reference I could find though.  It is rather cryptic, but it does go to your point.

Indeed. What I was about to write.

Also, topic, tangentiers.

EDIT: Regarding Kelmomas and Ajokli. Everything that Kelmomas seems to learn or reminisce on about the true Narindar points towards Kelmomas specifically being one of the Grinning God's most obvious choice Avatar's in the World. Ajokli is the biker gang of the Gods, young boys its choice corruptible: small crimes earn complicity, big crimes earn damnation, and when the boys learn of their damnation, they pledge themselves to murder, the most absolute crime in the hopes of Ajokli's final favour.

Why? I don't know. But ultimately Ajokli represents an interesting crux regarding the interaction between the Gods and the World.

[Blackstone]

I can admit when I am wrong, and I would like to officially change my stance: on the reread, I was convinced that Kelmomas is indeed a narindar of Ajokli.

[profgrape]

What changed your mind upon re-read?

[Blackstone]

What changed your mind upon re-read?

Well, the first time I read it, and excuses excuses, I was going fast and taking in a lot. It seemed like all of the events surrounding Kellhus, Kelmomas, and the WLW could also be ascribed to Kellhus seeing the possibilities as he always does, and avoiding the danger (in this scenario, Kelmomas would be misinterpreting what he was seeing).

The second time, it does in fact seem like Kelmomas is able to break the WLW's streak of White Luck. Now then, would the WLW have been successful in killing Kellhus without Kelmomas's intervention? I still don't think so, but there was an intervention that I can only explain as Kelmomas having a power beyond what he should.

All that being said, it is this alone that makes me believe it. All the things that came before just seem like the bizzaro imagination of an insane boy--thinking he had made a deal with the beetle sacrifice, believing he has the Unerring Grace, etc. And I still think the voice in his head is Samarmas.

[profgrape]

What changed your mind upon re-read?

Well, the first time I read it, and excuses excuses, I was going fast and taking in a lot. It seemed like all of the events surrounding Kellhus, Kelmomas, and the WLW could also be ascribed to Kellhus seeing the possibilities as he always does, and avoiding the danger (in this scenario, Kelmomas would be misinterpreting what he was seeing).

The second time, it does in fact seem like Kelmomas is able to break the WLW's streak of White Luck. Now then, would the WLW have been successful in killing Kellhus without Kelmomas's intervention? I still don't think so, but there was an intervention that I can only explain as Kelmomas having a power beyond what he should.

All that being said, it is this alone that makes me believe it. All the things that came before just seem like the bizzaro imagination of an insane boy--thinking he had made a deal with the beetle sacrifice, believing he has the Unerring Grace, etc. And I still think the voice in his head is Samarmas.

Heh, I did the same thing (burned through it) on my first read.   

I agree that Kelmomas has some kind of special sauce that stops the otherwise unstoppable WLW.  And there are plenty of signs that point to Ajokli as being behind it. 

The thing that gets me, actually, are all the signs pointing to Ajokli.  It's almost too "on-the-nose" -- culminating with Kel's conversation with the librarian.  Like you write above, everything leading up his intervention points to self-delusion. 

Semi-tangent: if the Gods are blind to the No-God, are they also blind to the Consult?

[Blackstone]

What changed your mind upon re-read?

Well, the first time I read it, and excuses excuses, I was going fast and taking in a lot. It seemed like all of the events surrounding Kellhus, Kelmomas, and the WLW could also be ascribed to Kellhus seeing the possibilities as he always does, and avoiding the danger (in this scenario, Kelmomas would be misinterpreting what he was seeing).

The second time, it does in fact seem like Kelmomas is able to break the WLW's streak of White Luck. Now then, would the WLW have been successful in killing Kellhus without Kelmomas's intervention? I still don't think so, but there was an intervention that I can only explain as Kelmomas having a power beyond what he should.

All that being said, it is this alone that makes me believe it. All the things that came before just seem like the bizzaro imagination of an insane boy--thinking he had made a deal with the beetle sacrifice, believing he has the Unerring Grace, etc. And I still think the voice in his head is Samarmas.

Heh, I did the same thing (burned through it) on my first read.   

I agree that Kelmomas has some kind of special sauce that stops the otherwise unstoppable WLW.  And there are plenty of signs that point to Ajokli as being behind it. 

The thing that gets me, actually, are all the signs pointing to Ajokli.  It's almost too "on-the-nose" -- culminating with Kel's conversation with the librarian.  Like you write above, everything leading up his intervention points to self-delusion. 

Semi-tangent: if the Gods are blind to the No-God, are they also blind to the Consult?

Yes, self-delusion was my assumption until I reread the end.

Blind to the Consult? That's an interesting question. On one hand I would say no, because what would make them so special that the gods were blind to them--if the gods were blind to them, couldn't they just slip by into oblivion after they died? On the other hand, if I recall the Lastborn's explanation correctly, the gods did not understand the first apocalypse or why men cried out in despair...so they must be blind to the Consult, or they'd at least have some understanding of the FA.

[profgrape]

What changed your mind upon re-read?

Well, the first time I read it, and excuses excuses, I was going fast and taking in a lot. It seemed like all of the events surrounding Kellhus, Kelmomas, and the WLW could also be ascribed to Kellhus seeing the possibilities as he always does, and avoiding the danger (in this scenario, Kelmomas would be misinterpreting what he was seeing).

The second time, it does in fact seem like Kelmomas is able to break the WLW's streak of White Luck. Now then, would the WLW have been successful in killing Kellhus without Kelmomas's intervention? I still don't think so, but there was an intervention that I can only explain as Kelmomas having a power beyond what he should.

All that being said, it is this alone that makes me believe it. All the things that came before just seem like the bizzaro imagination of an insane boy--thinking he had made a deal with the beetle sacrifice, believing he has the Unerring Grace, etc. And I still think the voice in his head is Samarmas.

Heh, I did the same thing (burned through it) on my first read.   

I agree that Kelmomas has some kind of special sauce that stops the otherwise unstoppable WLW.  And there are plenty of signs that point to Ajokli as being behind it. 

The thing that gets me, actually, are all the signs pointing to Ajokli.  It's almost too "on-the-nose" -- culminating with Kel's conversation with the librarian.  Like you write above, everything leading up his intervention points to self-delusion. 

Semi-tangent: if the Gods are blind to the No-God, are they also blind to the Consult?

Yes, self-delusion was my assumption until I reread the end.

Blind to the Consult? That's an interesting question. On one hand I would say no, because what would make them so special that the gods were blind to them--if the gods were blind to them, couldn't they just slip by into oblivion after they died? On the other hand, if I recall the Lastborn's explanation correctly, the gods did not understand the first apocalypse or why men cried out in despair...so they must be blind to the Consult, or they'd at least have some understanding of the FA.

Warning: lots of "if's" coming...

*If* it's not Ajokli, and if the NG/Consult's actions are somehow outside the Gods' perception, it might end up that Kelmomas is being manipulated by the Consult.  He'd be a hell of a sleeper agent, that's for sure.

[H]

Semi-tangent: if the Gods are blind to the No-God, are they also blind to the Consult?

I actually made a thread about this sort of thing, it has slipped to the second page of this subforum though.

[MSJ]

OK, doing a reread in places and I am pretty confused about the interplay between Ajokli and Kelmomas, or the seeming interplay between the two.  The "ultimate," or seemingly, scene Kelmomas certainly seems to be convinced that he possess a White-Luck of his (Ajolki's) own.  That the Narindar is his co-conspirator.  That the aim he and the Voice have been working toward is the death of Kellhus.

None of that is true though.

Kelmomas' call to Esmenet and Kellhus save them.  It actually disentangles the Narindar.

There would seem to be two options.  Either Ajolki's intentions are at total odds to Yatwer's, or there is no real connection between Kelmomas and Ajolki.

There is the further complication of the Voice, insisting that Kelmomas has "ruined everything."  Kelmomas "Ruined everything" by allowing Theli to die, or causing her to die?  It is only after Esment holds he body weeping that the voice says that.  Well, it is also after Kelmomas has a vision of Inrilatas.  Does the voice mean that Kel ruined everything by involving Inrilatas?

Off-the-wall theory: Kel was a Narindar for Ajolki, but disentangled himself?  Kellhus was supposed to die, but not Esmenet.  The plan got jacked up and so the Voice scrapped it, saving Esmenet, but inadvertently saving Kellhus too?

I have a further thought, but I think that is best for another thread.

I'm sure you know, I am of the opinion that there is no real connection between Kelmomas and Ajokli. What I am not sure of is why Kelmoma's call save Kellhus, but I also read it differently than you. I did think that Kelmoma's call somehow took the WLW out of the circuit of his seeing, but I am of the opinion that cheating death was entirely on Kellhus, ie he would have avoided it regardless.

No, the beetle was clearly an offering to Ajokli, and Kellhus was an instrument of Ajokli. We learn of this, and how that final scene with Kellhus and Kelmommas plays out, through Kel's convo with the Tudor. Unerring Grace. This is explained that while Ajokli will gift power, that later on he will take what you hold dear, to your ruin. Kelmommas comes to see the Narinder as an ally, as he kills Thelli and Kelmommas sees that he's going to kill Kellhus. So, Kelmommas thinks to himself to help the Narinder, his presence alone and his relationship with Ajokli, is enough to break the circuit and end the White-Luck of the Narinder. Thus, taking what Kelmommas holds dear.