The Second Apocalypse
Earwa => The Aspect-Emperor => The Unholy Consult => Topic started by: Rots on September 22, 2017, 05:26:13 pm
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Someone out there must be better at math than me - does anyone have a decent idea how tall these things are? iirc the canted horn is described as taking something like 30 heartbeats to fall. The word "leagues" gets tossed around in one description of the horn falling to the plain, i think, also.
The Ark almost certainly was built in space wherever it came from. That sort of mass would be heinously hard to launch out of any sort of earth like gravitational field.
Also, randomly, why did Aurax open the door from the Vigil into the Golden Room? Is it as simple as death = damnation and he would do anything to live longer even though he was 99.999999999% certain Kellhus would kill him the second the door opened?
Also, randomly, why did the dunsult make a seemingly legit effort to kill Kellhus when as far as we know they also needed him to be TNG (at least until the last 20+ hours when Kel came into their clutches)? They need TNG to close off the world and stave off damnation and they they are going around trying to kill their shot at Resumption. Doesnt really make sense. Unless its all performative. When you have two sets of Dunyain (and a god!) claiming that the ground is conditioned in their favor motive/subject/object gets confusing in the extreme.
the book continues to definitely sit better with me after my re-read but there are still some ridiculous Chekhov gun scenarios running around. Oh well..
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I remember there was a glossary entry about this. The Isuphiryas gives the height of th eUpright Horn as one thousand tens, or ten thousand Nonman cubits. By Sohonc accounts, which rely on mathematics and the measurement of shadows, put the height at some nine thousand seven-hundred and twenty-four Umeritic cubits, or little less than half the height reported by the Nonmen.
A cubit is suppose to be roughly the length of one's finger to elbow. Which is about half a meter. So by the Sohonc, around 4862 meters, roughly 15951.44. Unless I'm absolutely garbage at math and conversion, which I am.
Edit - didn't see the other questions.
- Yes, I think Aurang was doing his absolute best to just not be killed.
- There was another thread about this. I think, personally, this is because they felt there were other options to make the No-God. That they could technically use someone else.
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Holy toledo - 3 miles long? That's some mad engineering going on there - I pegged it at 100 stories tall ( size of tall skyscraper ) putting it at 500 meters, but that was just from impression, no math on my part ( which is still TALL ). Being 3 miles tall, that would make ascension/descension take hours perhaps, but the story reads it's traversed faster ... er, I think. Anyways, I have no clue, really, so will rely on the mathematicians here to report - and you're right, at this size, would've had to be constructed in space or on a planetoid with low gravity.
You mean, Aurang? Aurang was traumatized from his wings being clipped and had to think fast - certain death ( if he didn't open the door ) or likely death ( opening the door ). Same thing when a dirty cop has a gun to your head asking for the location of your stash, knowing if you tell him you'll likely be killed for ratting - but certain death if you don't.
I think the Dunsult didn't try to assassinate Kel ( gods tried to assassinate him, but I don't recollect The Consult trying - we never see a skinspy throw a chorae at him, for example ). I think what we see are The Consult's attacks on TGO, not Kel himself. I think they would've been able to salt Kel if they really wanted to - as we see in the final scene, with all of Kel's capabilities, just takes some chorae to finish him off. We see the hundred holding chorae only when it appears they were unsuccessful in "turning" Kel - they could've probably salted him at any time once he was in the Ark. The nuke, the scranc, et al were to thwart TGO, not Kel himself.
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I remember there was a glossary entry about this. The Isuphiryas gives the height of th eUpright Horn as one thousand tens, or ten thousand Nonman cubits. By Sohonc accounts, which rely on mathematics and the measurement of shadows, put the height at some nine thousand seven-hundred and twenty-four Umeritic cubits, or little less than half the height reported by the Nonmen.
A cubit is suppose to be roughly the length of one's finger to elbow. Which is about half a meter. So by the Sohonc, around 4862 meters, roughly 15951.44. Unless I'm absolutely garbage at math and conversion, which I am.
Yeah, i tihnk a cubit is ~1.5 feet in length. Thanks for the knowledge/math! It puts me in mind of Mt. Rainier and the overarching prominence of it when seen from over 100 miles away on a clear day in the PNW. Good stuff.
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Also, randomly, why did Aurax open the door from the Vigil into the Golden Room? Is it as simple as death = damnation and he would do anything to live longer even though he was 99.999999999% certain Kellhus would kill him the second the door opened?
I think that's correct, yes. Remember Shaeonanra's perspective from the False Sun after being exposed to the Inverse Fire; NOTHING is worse than death, because death means damnation.
Also, randomly, why did the dunsult make a seemingly legit effort to kill Kellhus when as far as we know they also needed him to be TNG (at least until the last 20+ hours when Kel came into their clutches)? They need TNG to close off the world and stave off damnation and they they are going around trying to kill their shot at Resumption.
As others have said, I don't think they really were trying to kill Kellhus directly until he rebuffed their attempts to get him on board. That said, I don't think the Dunsult would have been particularly broken up over his death; there are other Anasurimbors and Kellhus represented the only significant direct threat to them.
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First off, I love attempts to communicate vistas through words because vistas are awesome. The Horns would be quite the sight to reconcile.
We can at least attribute natural/constructed wonders to nature/humans (allegedly).
Also, randomly, why did Aurax open the door from the Vigil into the Golden Room? Is it as simple as death = damnation and he would do anything to live longer even though he was 99.999999999% certain Kellhus would kill him the second the door opened?
Also, randomly, why did the dunsult make a seemingly legit effort to kill Kellhus when as far as we know they also needed him to be TNG (at least until the last 20+ hours when Kel came into their clutches)? They need TNG to close off the world and stave off damnation and they they are going around trying to kill their shot at Resumption. Doesnt really make sense. Unless its all performative. When you have two sets of Dunyain (and a god!) claiming that the ground is conditioned in their favor motive/subject/object gets confusing in the extreme.
I don't think they ever tried to kill Kellhus, rather they wanted to guide him to the Golden Room. Hell, we can argue that even the Skin-Spies with Chorae were simply a last ditch attempt to corral Kellhus into the Carapace should reason not persuade him.
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Aurang's mission seemed to be to supervise the defense and then retreat inside, drawing Kellhus after him and exposing him to the Inverse Fire. This went sideways, which happens in combat, and he ended up dead.
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I don't think they ever tried to kill Kellhus, rather they wanted to guide him to the Golden Room. Hell, we can argue that even the Skin-Spies with Chorae were simply a last ditch attempt to corral Kellhus into the Carapace should reason not persuade him.
That's what I was thinking when they first arrived and I holy shitted myself thinking he better get his ass in there ... until that fucker salted him. He apparently felt the same, otherwise instead of stuttering to this son with surprise/confusion, he would've high tailed it outta there assuming he could've transposed in time. That was such a menacing scene, I loved it.
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Aurang's mission seemed to be to supervise the defense and then retreat inside, drawing Kellhus after him and exposing him to the Inverse Fire. This went sideways, which happens in combat, and he ended up dead.
I really enjoyed that, despite knowing about the Metagnosis, Aurang tries the same Lust-Glamour on Kellhus directly that he used in TTT via the Synthese...
I actually thought that Kellhus was going to fuck Aurang first and then kill him while reading the draft. In the end, Aurang still just wanted to get laid ;).
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I really enjoyed that, despite knowing about the Metagnosis, Aurang tries the same Lust-Glamour on Kellhus directly that he used in TTT via the Synthese...
I actually thought that Kellhus was going to fuck Aurang first and then kill him while reading the draft. In the end, Aurang still just wanted to get laid ;).
This got me thinking and you know when MSJ thinks...revelations not far away....lol. Anywho, I presume that Aurang was using the Cants of Compulsion on Kelly is too, right? I have to go back and read it, but I felt that was being implied. And, we're using the CoC as the way Shae would subsume the Mutilated. It stands to reason that wouldn't have Kellhus have fail to the same CoC? I could just be making shite up though, but I think he did use them on him.
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Sorry can't edit. In and out on phone. Anyway, this could be a clue that Kelhus's passion is stronger than that of the Mutilated. Being with the worldborn, have feelings for Serwe, then Esme. Kellhus was and is truly more. In fact I know Aurang used the CoX, because Kellhus shakes out of it there at the end.
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I really enjoyed that, despite knowing about the Metagnosis, Aurang tries the same Lust-Glamour on Kellhus directly that he used in TTT via the Synthese...
Since he's there in person, Aurang has his phermones to back his play.
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This got me thinking and you know when MSJ thinks...revelations not far away....lol. Anywho, I presume that Aurang was using the Cants of Compulsion on Kelly is too, right? I have to go back and read it, but I felt that was being implied. And, we're using the CoC as the way Shae would subsume the Mutilated. It stands to reason that wouldn't have Kellhus have fail to the same CoC? I could just be making shite up though, but I think he did use them on him.
Nah, Kellhus wouldn't be as vulnerable as the Mutilated because he had the Gnosis before anyone might have had a chance to Compel him.
Though, now that you mention that - who might have Kellhus Compelled in his twenty years?!
Since he's there in person, Aurang has his phermones to back his play.
True say.
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Though, now that you mention that - who might have Kellhus Compelled in his twenty years?!
Now THAT's a really interesting question. Heck, the entire concept of the Cants of Compulsion is really interesting. I imagine they're not constantly and pervasively used in the pre-Kellhus Three Seas simply because most people worth Compelling would have access to a chorae. Plus sorcerors need to keep a low profile in most nations other than High Ainon. Trying to Compel powerful political, religious or economic players would be extremely risky.
But Kellhus? He's all about the Shortest Path, and as the Aspect Emperor, he'd have the institutional might to do it and run roughshod over anybody who dared complain. But on the other hand, the whole point of overwhelming institutional power is that you don't HAVE to force recalcitrant individuals to believe. Fear and social pressure will keep people in line. Plus anybody that's Compelled could be freed of Compulsion by the touch of a chorae; that's risky. Perhaps it'd be safer for Kellhus to simply use his Dunyain powers of manipulation to "make them love"; requires a bit more effort on his part, but gets a much more robust, permanant result, and Kellhus would only need to bother with really key players. The more I think about it, the more I'm inclined to believe that Kellhus didn't rely heavily on Cants of Compulsion at all after becoming Aspect Emperor.
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Plus anybody that's Compelled could be freed of Compulsion by the touch of a chorae; that's risky.
I don't know that this is fact?
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Plus anybody that's Compelled could be freed of Compulsion by the touch of a chorae; that's risky.
I don't know that this is fact?
Well, the glossary entry on Chorae lays out the below.
"Chorae are extraordinary in that they render their bearer immune to all sorcerous Cants and instantly kill any sorcerer who comes into contact with them."
One might be able to extrapolate that the immunity to sorcerous Cants might cancel out any ongoing Cants.
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One might be able to extrapolate that the immunity to sorcerous Cants might cancel out any ongoing Cants.
But it's unclear if Compulsion would be an ongoing Cant instead of a one-time alteration.
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One might be able to extrapolate that the immunity to sorcerous Cants might cancel out any ongoing Cants.
Right. In the way that chorae can cancel Wards.
But it's unclear if Compulsion would be an ongoing Cant instead of a one-time alteration.
There's so much about Compulsion that RSB doesn't get into. Is it ongoing, requiring "maintenance" on the part of the sorcerer, sort of like a Ward or a Surrilec (sp?) Point or is it a one-time deal? Does it leave a Mark on the person Compulsed? Based on the reactions of the people we've seen victimized by them, Xinemus and Moenghus Jr., my personal take is that while the Cants can have lingering psychological aftereffects, the actual compulsion is ongoing and requires a certain amount of maintenance on the part of the sorcerer, which could then be broken by the touch of a chorae.
If Compulsion was a one-shot deal that left no Mark and couldn't be removed with the touch of a chorae, there's little reason to believe Sorcerers wouldn't rule the entire Three Seas.
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There is also the question of how subtle can Compulsion be.
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There's so much about Compulsion that RSB doesn't get into. Is it ongoing, requiring "maintenance" on the part of the sorcerer, sort of like a Ward or a Surrilec (sp?) Point or is it a one-time deal? Does it leave a Mark on the person Compulsed? Based on the reactions of the people we've seen victimized by them, Xinemus and Moenghus Jr., my personal take is that while the Cants can have lingering psychological aftereffects, the actual compulsion is ongoing and requires a certain amount of maintenance on the part of the sorcerer, which could then be broken by the touch of a chorae.
If Compulsion was a one-shot deal that left no Mark and couldn't be removed with the touch of a chorae, there's little reason to believe Sorcerers wouldn't rule the entire Three Seas.
One small point of contention - I don't think Moenghus Jr. was ever Compelled, I think he was just tortured with the Quyan Agonies. Different psychological ramifications.
But I think you're asking all the right questions. As per Xinemus, I think the best explanation is by Achamian to Esmenet in TTT. It's like the Compulsions force the brain to process its neural architecture differently and, as per Achamian's rivers analogy, sometimes the person recovers their original configuration (personality/whathaveyou), sometimes they don't - you see it in individual's with complications from brain degeneration, disease, or injury a fair bit.
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Re: cants of compulsion.
I'd expect that the truely worrisome part of the cants is that you feel like you did the things you did.
Meaning, even after its done - a la Xin - you still can't distinguish what you did by choice and what you were compelled to do.
I imagine Kellhus could inspire some truly spectacular scenes in the minds eye if he layered his regular speech with compulsions. He'd only need the briefest of seconds to do this, and he could simply ask anyone he intends to cast on to put down their chorae.
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I imagine Kellhus could inspire some truly spectacular scenes in the minds eye if he layered his regular speech with compulsions. He'd only need the briefest of seconds to do this, and he could simply ask anyone he intends to cast on to put down their chorae.
Wouldn't the chorae protect them from the cant?
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I imagine Kellhus could inspire some truly spectacular scenes in the minds eye if he layered his regular speech with compulsions. He'd only need the briefest of seconds to do this, and he could simply ask anyone he intends to cast on to put down their chorae.
Wouldn't the chorae protect them from the cant?
It should. I thought Wilshire meant to sort of put in a "root kit" of sorts via Compulsion that could then be opened by regular means even if they had a Chorae, but now I see he probably didn't, so I am not so sure what we are really discussing...
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I was pointing out two things. One, that Kellhus could simply ask or disarm someone holding a chorae if he wanted to use a CoC - with either mundane or dunyanic means. Two, that the compulsions Kellhus could weave would be stupendously powerful. So much so that regardless of what the person did afterwards, their mind would be permanently altered.
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So a Chorae does not protect against a Cant of Compulsion?
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So a Chorae does not protect against a Cant of Compulsion?
It most certainly would if one was wearing it. But the effects, once completed, aren't entirely magical as far as I can tell. The person cannot distinguish between what they did themselves, and what they were compelled to do, even after a chorae is touched. It feels the same (think The Argument), so whether its love, or anger, or whatever else, the effects of the actions and feelings can be more/less permanent. And that's just with an average schoolman casting your run-of-the-mill Compulsions.
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So a Chorae does not protect against a Cant of Compulsion?
It most certainly would if one was wearing it. But the effects, once completed, aren't entirely magical as far as I can tell. The person cannot distinguish between what they did themselves, and what they were compelled to do, even after a chorae is touched. It feels the same (think The Argument), so whether its love, or anger, or whatever else, the effects of the actions and feelings can be more/less permanent. And that's just with an average schoolman casting your run-of-the-mill Compulsions.
Right, I mean, if one owns a Chorae, it seems stupendously silly to not wear it all the time, otherwise, what use is it even, really?
But I don't think we really disagree, a CoC can create a "root kit" in someone's mind for later use, I just don't think it'd be too effective versus any smart, diligent person with a Chorae who doesn't specifically act remiss in protecting themselves.
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Oh, I was thinking it had a variety of uses.
The sort of virus installation for later use, a la Knife of Many Hands, being one option, and the easiest to cancel out with a chorae. Think virus scan that removes maleware.
But another option would be to compel the subject to do something right now, a la Xin. This would be unaffected by a chorae post-event, as the lasting mental effects of doing the action would be mundane rather than magical.
In that way, I think Kellhus could easily convince a particularly important individual to put down their chorae, manipulate the piss out of them via CoC and Dunyainic Mageries, then send them on their way.
Its super convoluted, nothing we have seen really suggested that anyone he had that much time with could withstand his will anyway ... But maybe for a lesser man it'd have more use.
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I see what you are saying. I think in the long run, it's possible, but probably not really overall worth the effort it would require.
It's quicker to just dupe a bunch of people into killing the ones you don't agree with or are in your way.
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Right, I mean, if one owns a Chorae, it seems stupendously silly to not wear it all the time, otherwise, what use is it even, really?
Yea, never understood the scenes where Cnaüir was almost fried by sorcery because he has to find his chorae in his girdle. Would be much simpler to attach to a necklace or braclet that kept it in contact with the skin constantly.
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Right, I mean, if one owns a Chorae, it seems stupendously silly to not wear it all the time, otherwise, what use is it even, really?
Yea, never understood the scenes where Cnaüir was almost fried by sorcery because he has to find his chorae in his girdle. Would be much simpler to attach to a necklace or braclet that kept it in contact with the skin constantly.
Somewhat agree, but securing it makes it less likely to be lost as with a bracelet or necklace. Also, less likely to accidentally salt a sorcerer. Also, obfuscation of it allows you to mingle with sorcerers easier ( unless they can sense it, then storing it away does only small good - they find it respectful of you not to bear it and rest easier in your presence knowing a mishap is less likely ). Also less likely to be robbed from you, kinda like dangling around a diamond necklace marching with the GO ... brings attention.
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Somewhat agree, but securing it makes it less likely to be lost as with a bracelet or necklace. Also, less likely to accidentally salt a sorcerer. Also, obfuscation of it allows you to mingle with sorcerers easier ( unless they can sense it, then storing it away does only small good - they find it respectful of you not to bear it and rest easier in your presence knowing a mishap is less likely ). Also less likely to be robbed from you, kinda like dangling around a diamond necklace marching with the GO ... brings attention.
I get your point of securing as to not salt a sorcerer buddy, lol. But, regardless of where its at on the person, a sorcerer feels/senses that pinprick of oblivion. I like how Esme wore it strapped and her belly. It was hidden under clothes making contact next to impossible, yet offered her constant protection. You think that would be a common way of wearing one. He'll, a man could do the same around the thigh or upper arm. Unless, you know, you are The Most Violent of all Men and go shirtless to show of all those swazond.
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Somewhat agree, but securing it makes it less likely to be lost as with a bracelet or necklace. Also, less likely to accidentally salt a sorcerer. Also, obfuscation of it allows you to mingle with sorcerers easier ( unless they can sense it, then storing it away does only small good - they find it respectful of you not to bear it and rest easier in your presence knowing a mishap is less likely ). Also less likely to be robbed from you, kinda like dangling around a diamond necklace marching with the GO ... brings attention.
I get your point of securing as to not salt a sorcerer buddy, lol. But, regardless of where its at on the person, a sorcerer feels/senses that pinprick of oblivion. I like how Esme wore it strapped and her belly. It was hidden under clothes making contact next to impossible, yet offered her constant protection. You think that would be a common way of wearing one. He'll, a man could do the same around the thigh or upper arm. Unless, you know, you are The Most Violent of all Men and go shirtless to show of all those swazond.
Yeah, I couldn't remember if any/all could detect it, hence my caveat that at least it shows manners/social grace to not flaunt it ( something the breaker of horses might not care, moreover disdain ).
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Yeah, I couldn't remember if any/all could detect it, hence my caveat that at least it shows manners/social grace to not flaunt it ( something the breaker of horses might not care, moreover disdain ).
Yet, remember, before Kellhus sorcerers were just a damned and hated as whores. Social manners were of no concern when dealing with sorcerers. Except for the rare relationship such as Xinemus shared with Akka.
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I see what you are saying. I think in the long run, it's possible, but probably not really overall worth the effort it would require.
It's quicker to just dupe a bunch of people into killing the ones you don't agree with or are in your way.
I agree with this. While I think Kellhus COULD probably combine CoC with Dunyainic dicketry to create some truly powerful effects in people, it just seems unnecessarily complex. Kellhus can already extract ANY sacrifice from somebody with mere words. He discovered that in Atrithau before he even met Cnaiur. Only really crazy and/or deeply fucked up personalities seem to be able to resist him (Cnaiur, Conphas), and his preferred way of dealing with them seemed to be "have them killed".
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Yup. The only person that escapes his grasp is Cnaiur, and CoC or not Kellhus just didn't have access to him. Everyone else was brought to heel easily enough.