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Messages - Rots

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News/Announcements / Re: Blog Post from Bryan Bakker (03 June 2022)
« on: July 21, 2022, 06:36:35 pm »
Thanks for this. I was thinking its been, what, 5 years since TUC was published? I think the books can end as they are but i would like to see more as i felt that TUC was not what was promised by Scott.

But its good to get an update and i hope Scott and his life go well regardless of whether he writes another word or not.

The Unholy Consult / Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ajokli, Gods, and Chorae
« on: May 08, 2020, 06:20:47 pm »
I think H's post is great and i buy into a lot of it but in the end i think the answer is that Ajokli is a fucking God. He exists in all times at all times and can do what he wants.

I actually just finished a re-read and im back to being pretty annoyed/disappointed with TUC, especially. That is obviously my problem but i shouldnt have to read The False Sun for some good Consult stuff vs a book literally called The Unholy Consult. But, ymmv

The Unholy Consult / Re: Why would the Inchoroi fear damnation?
« on: May 08, 2020, 06:13:40 pm »
IIRC - wasnt there a souled skin spy or am i totally making that up? Or was it a skin spy who was part of the mandate?

Anyway, i think the inchies must have souls otherwise this is like 8-10000 years of bullshit and totally pointless. Then again that might make RSB giggle to do that to the readers. Who knows?

The Unholy Consult / Re: (TUC Spoilers) Thoughts on TUC
« on: September 30, 2019, 11:42:04 pm »
Im not looking for RSB to just spell it out - if i wanted that this series would be a few paragraphs. But when he says specific things and doesnt follow up it annoys me. But, whatever, if he writes more ill buy it cause the work is still great but i can deal w/fewer RSB proclamations, tbh. Zombie three seas is a lost world.

As for the 'winning' condition, yes, its probably going to be Mimara focused. But again, its all guesses. Id honestly prefer to not have a redux of the First Apocalypse w/a last second save taking down the No-God. Its hard to see how future books dont just rehash the First Apocalypse but this time w/a different magical last second save.

Im up for more atrocity tales. Id like to learn all about the Consult, which RSB said we would (and then didnt), more details post ArkFall, etc etc.

I still love the books, just feeling quite meh about their author. Compartmentalizing ftw!

The Unholy Consult / Re: (TUC Spoilers) Thoughts on TUC
« on: September 29, 2019, 02:25:51 pm »

Definitely though, a concluding story would be most welcome, seeing as how we ended up with more loose ends at the end of TUC/TAE than one might be prone to expect. I hope some day we get that story.

ehhh...The longer i am away the more im glad im gone from the books. Still the best fantasy books ive read this century and maybe ever but...Bakker really just annoyed the shit out of me w/his intentional ambiguities.

Has he ever explained the, iirc, the panties coming off comment regarding TUC? Has he ever come back to what we all supposedly missed in the Golden Room scene?

Hes so insistent on being inscrutable and then claiming that our awareness of said inscrutability is actually showing us how well we understand him that it borders on open trolling. Imo.

My memory is hazy but decades ago in Dragon magazine there was a cartoon w/a dragon on top of a destroyed tower/castle with destruction all around w/the caption: Sometimes the Dragon Wins.

Thats basically my hope for these books - The dragon (consult) wins and the world is closed. I mean if there is another series i will find it basically wildly implausible if not outright fucking stupid if humanity can defeat the mutilated/shea/consult/hordes of sranc.

There are 8 figure sranc aimed straight at TTS and then Zeum. Zerg the shit out of everyone, eat them/kill them, the end. Consult rules forever. If there is some bullshit Kellhus in the Outside Deus Ex Machina move still to be played id prefer RSB just keep it to himself.

The Unholy Consult / Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
« on: April 12, 2019, 07:14:17 pm »
@Wilshire - i agree w/your comments re: Bakker. At this point i find him to be an intentionally undependable narrator of his own story in a lot of ways. Im sure he would tell me that my loss of faith in him would be his goal and that i am now better off.

Ill buy whatever, if anything, comes next but im much more neutral towards the author and thus the work.

MSJ - i did not "attack" you. Words have meaning you know. I merely pointed out what i saw as some pretty amusing hypocrisy. You consistently demand canonical/textual support for any and all things anyone else supposes and then you throw in a "highly inferred" when you cant find the exact quote you want and move on.

I go way back also, to zombie three seas, maybe you do too, i dont know. I also dont know what difference that makes to anything.

Anyway, that is all.

Quote from:  Tleilaxu
Give me an exact quote ifi you don't mind, I can't find it.

I looked through AMA ad Q&A here and can't find where he says explicitly that there was no deal struck. Maybe its in the Westeros Q&A, you'll have to look through that as I don't venture to that negative space anymore.

It is highly inferred in both the AMA and Q&A. He says that Kellhus wasn't even aware of Ajokli's presence. That slowly Ajokli took over more and more until the GR. So, that implies in and of itself no pact. If there was a pact, Kellhus would surely know of Ajokli's coming possession. Bakker says this is not the case, several times.

Just wanted to mention, MSJ, that you seem to be the single greatest source of "pic, or it didnt happen" with regards to asking others to quote textual evidence for X or Y take on the books and then you blithely state that something that is of great important is highly inferred and then just walk away like thats cool. I have looked through the AMA and googled and whatnot and i havent found where RSB states what you says is highly inferred. I am not saying you and others are wrong but for such an important thing id like to see a quote.

RSB is his own worst enemy and frankly id rather he not show up at all in these forums (wish mostly granted) and not do any AMAs cause his answers often just piss me off. I wont say he doesnt respect his readers but there is something there, imo, that doesnt sit right w/me. Anyway, ill go back to mostly lurking but i just had to login and comment on this because it made me laugh.

And for the record as a general comment on this topic i am of the opinion that its totally Kellhus saying hte line about striking treaties w/the Pit, not Ajokli. Ajokli is truly in control and in possession of Kellhus once that giant, awesome gout of flame explodes out of the Kellhus's head. I love that part.

The Unholy Consult / Re: The Celmomian Prophecy
« on: December 20, 2017, 09:02:51 pm »
I dont know what Slatepitch is.
I am fully aware that changing fundamental assumptions leads to different conclusions, and that yes its a fiction book so the main characters are special because they are the main characters.
What I'm not sure about though is if you know this is just for fun?
Yes of course we can all just say 'take book at face value, lets go home' - but I'd prefer to have a conversation, its much more entertaining for me. I've been around for much to long, so making new assumptions and looking for evidence to support it is how I get my fix ;) . Sometimes something valuable comes from it, sometimes not.
"I'm right, you're wrong, agree to disagree" doesn't have the same interest to me as what just transpired here.

And, clearly, I still disagree that there are thousands of pages that say Kellhus is special. I have, as detailed at length above, an opposite opinion actually.

I'd love it if you'd elaborate on why you think and feel the way you do on the subject :) .
Which pages and words in particular make you believe so passionately? Which information from the books or elsewhere have you found supporting your opinion?
Also, are you big into baseball, or sports analytics (I assume slatepitch and  the other acronyms are derived from sports terminology)?
(btw, I'm glad my posts have moved you to post. Its not every day we get an appearance from Rots). is a news/opinion website that is (in)famous for its contrary for the sake of being contrary takes, and that is what i feel you are doing here. I am, thankfully, a former sport fanatic. I now more productively, and effectively spend my time doing other things then caring about sports but i can still speak the lingua franca.

I am not going to play the "pull a quote out of 7 books and defend a specific line reading" game here. Ill just say that, again, the scions of a single house throughout the 7 books are seen as special because the books are about those very people. You are asking me to prove a negative, imo. I think the character of Kellhus outran RSBs ability to contain him and thus we saw a dramatic reduction in Kellhus POV chapters in these books because of that. I remember RSB mentioning that writing the Kellhus chapters were especially difficult because obviously Kellhus can only be as smart as RSB but i think we can all agree book Kellhus >> intellect than his creator, no? I think RSB will limit Dunyain POVs in TNG also because of this.

If you dont think Kellhus is anything special then ok. I guess im not all that interested in non-canonical readings. As ive previously mentioned i hope the series ends with TUC. Ill certainly read TNG the second if/when it comes out but im fine with the series as is.

The Unholy Consult / Re: The Celmomian Prophecy
« on: December 20, 2017, 05:23:14 pm »
@Wilshire - this is all very, very, Slatepitch-y of you. I mean why doesnt RSB just put in <average Dunyan here> throughout the 7 novels whenever Kellhus is referenced? Why not put in <avg noble family that figures throughout millenia of pivotal and critical roles> rather than type "Anasurimbor" over and over.

We should just have some lame baseball analytics for DAR (dunyain above average) and LAD (league average dunyain) instead of all these pesky names and specifics. Kellhus and the Anasurimbor line are special because RSB spends thousands of pages telling us that they are special. This isnt a story about the halcyon days of the Bob Smith dynasty and what befell them. If we are to take your Slatepitch seriously we would then have to throw out all that has come before and there is too much Darkness in that direction.

The No-God / Re: TNG- Your expectations and wants
« on: November 20, 2017, 11:27:59 pm »
I wish that there was no TNG coming out. Im fine with where/how it all ended. Sometimes, the Dragon should win. I hope that there is no redemption. Id certainly welcome a bunch of atrocity tales and stuff like that but as far as another series, im good. I mean ill buy it if it comes out but i will not be longing for it.

So, i will not make any predictions other than there will be things that are clear to RSB but sadly all too ambiguous to the rest of us. And then RSB can tell us that we are missing something obvious and then cue lots of clueless speculation.

I think a part of Bakker's unnecessary vagueness comes from needing a better editor.

Ha, yeah, especially for TUC in my opinion. The editing was damn near an atrocity tale in its own right.

@Taohorror - it has been literally decades since i played D&D. I went to the desert on my annual trip w/some new guys htis year and there was some talk about starting a new campaign but it died. We're old, significant others, kids, jobs, etc etc. The magic of dice, 3x5 character cards, painted miniatures, grid paper for maps, all the gd peanut butter cups a man can eat + some shitty, those were the days. Im middle aged and still can remember so sharply the good times i had playing D&D with ppl who cared.

Generally speaking - i am all in with RSB generally. I will buy and read The No God, and think about it. I just dont think its necessary. Id love to see some more short stories that fill in some specific world building here and there. I did not really like TUC at first. But upon a second and third re-read i have come around. I still think it has significant and hurtful blind spots but its already aging well for me.

Just a couple of general notes here and i am curious as to whether anyone else has run across this. I have a couple of friends that i introduced to RSB years ago and they just finished TUC - and its fair to say that they are deeply confused. Deeply. They are more casual readers. They have never been on this board, or Westeros, or any reddit AMA for this, etc.

RSB can obviously write however and for whomever he wants, but, i think he overestimates his clarity. To that point - did the collective hive mind ever figure out the obvious thing RSB said we were all missing? If so, i havent seen it.

I feel like we are all experiencing a bit of epistemological closure and are falling down the rat hole of speculation. I love world building as much, if not more so than the next guy (you should have seen the D&D campaigns i made/illustrated/planned out) but when the character motivations/plot require so much post hoc parsing i worry that maybe we and RSB are getting a little lost in the forest for the trees.

in the end i think the GR is an event horizon and we effectively really dont know jack shit more after TUC than at the beginning of the book regarding Ajokli and Kellhus. I have this vague feeling that RSB is just screwing w/us and that TNG series will also end w/o remotely any sort of resolution. I am not really clear on why TNG is even being written tbh. Im fine w/the dunsult winning and TNG reaping humanity. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Put me on Team Kellhus made a pact with Ajokli (and others). It makes zero sense to me that that would be Ajokli making mention of it. Why would he make a pact w/the pit. He is the pit. The lord of hate does not make a pact w/his servants. I do not make a pact w/an ant that crosses my kitchen.

I think its fair to say that Kellhus is influenced but not yet fully possessed until the head of burning flame emerges and that its almost impossible to parse with precision the motivations for entering the GR at that time. Serwa certainly seems concerned at the timing while who cares what Kayu thinks (hes basically a worthless character, imo).

Its still TBD who tricked whom in the Kellhus vs Ajokli contest. We have no way of knowing until TNG appears in a few years. And as for Ajokli needing to be w/in X distance of the GR/topos to manifest that doesnt explain how he can then manifest as Cnauir, unless TNG is a whirlwind of topos, which i dont buy.

The Unholy Consult / Re: [TUC Spoiler] The Ciphrang
« on: September 28, 2017, 03:28:33 am »
This might be a total nerdanel but do we have any sort of mechanistic understanding of the daimos? Cnauir is most certainly in the Outside as one ridiculously powerful Ciphrang, if Serwa is dead she will be one also, and what about Kellhus? He seems to have disappeared but since hes described as being a hunger if he is in the Outside somewhere hes a ciphrang. If there are any daimotic sorcerers still wandering the land and some dots get connected i wonder if there is a way to summon any of the new ciphrang?

Again, to my reading there is no real understanding of the metaphysics of the daimos and how the demons can be yoked and controlled but i could certainly be wrong..Anywho, just a thought that would be pretty interesting to see played out.

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