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Topics - What Came Before

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46
Quote from: Callan S.
For some reason I was thinking about time lines and them being disrupted. Say you disrupt one time line and The Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings series becomes an obscure, unknown work. It just didn't get printed, for one. So imagine in one time line someones a huge fan of Tolkien, gushing about it, in the other time line he doesn't know about it at all and as a adult you hand him one of the books that to him is some obscure unknown, he reads it and...doesn't think much of it. Certainly none of his friends gush about it.

I was thinking, could one say one trait of good writing is that irregardless of timeline, it will have the effect it has? I know, alternate time lines, what the heck? But regardless, the question...?

Maybe you'd say that the lord of the rings series would still have it's effect. It might be a harsh/missplaced example, but I wanted to touch on turbo fandom being non plussed in another time line. And so shear away a layer (or layers) there to the effect the book has.

47
General Misc. / Red Dead Redemption : Ending
« on: June 04, 2013, 03:02:56 pm »
Quote from: Callan S.
Wow, am I bummed by the ending.

48
General Earwa / Ciphrang Throughout History
« on: June 04, 2013, 02:57:19 pm »
Quote from: Triskele
Something occurred to me while skimming a reread.

(I wasn't sure of the best spot to place this thread, so please move if appropriate).

The Nonman emissary Nin'sariccas asks Kellhus to confirm if he has, in fact, traveled to the Outside and returned.  Kellhus asks him if he's worried that Kellhus has been replaced by a demon.  I suspect that this is not the case, but Nin'sariccas says that "such substitutions" have happened before. 

That makes me wonder if any of the major historical figures in Earwan history eventually were "replaced" by demons.  Does anyone have any ideas?

49
General Earwa / Maybe some foreshadowing
« on: June 04, 2013, 02:53:47 pm »
Quote from: Wilshire
pg. 56 WLW, Mimara's POV (narration).
"The pillared depths are uniformly black. The parallax of intervening trunks slowly scissors a thousand grottoes into invisibility. It almost seems a game, the accumulation of hidden spaces. Enough to conceal nations"
my italics

Could Bakker be hinting that there is more to the Meorn Wilderness than what we have seen? I think so.

50
General Earwa / Mimara's Skin-spy
« on: June 04, 2013, 02:50:29 pm »
Quote from: Wilshire
I was flipping through WLW and read past the a conversation between Mimara and the skin-spy that was following the skin eaters.

Why did the thing spend so much time trying to remake itself in Her image? What was the motivation behind their conversations, warning them about the Qirri among other things? Was it really just following orders and following the band, protecting the prophesy or something?

Also, since I'm not exactly sure where there was a discussion about this, I wanted to pick out an allusion:
"Only a soul can hold a paradox," she explains. "Since the true meaning of paradox escapes you, you can only grasp non-paradoxical approximations. In this case, 'strange.' Only a soul can comprehend contradictory truths."
Mimara, WLW p276 USA large edition. my bold.

In 1984 the word doublethink is defined as "The power of holding two contradictory beliefs in one's mind simultaneously, and accepting both of them".

I thought this was an interesting similarity. That Earwa defines the soul as something with this ability to see a paradox, but 1984 uses this same idea as the premise behind its own propaganda. The Soul in Earwa being the ultimate truth, held as the ultimate lie in 1984.

51
General Earwa / Ajokli
« on: June 03, 2013, 04:05:06 pm »
Quote from: Curethan
I believe there is a lot of subtle clues of Ajokli's influence throughout the AE so far, things I noted when reading that I could not quite grasp and tie together.
Sadly I'm missing a box of books containing my TJE and TDTCB from a recent move so I can't indulge a reread atm.

But here are a couple from memory;
Sarl  and the Captain for example. 
"Sometimes the dead bounce" Sarl says.  I felt that maybe he didn't just break (no weepers on the slog), that possibly he actually briefly died and was bounced back into his body. 
The Captain, who remembers Hell... did he accompany Kellhus perhaps on a jaunt outside?  Possibly to condition him for the journey to Sauglish?
As an adherent to Ajokli, would he not make and excellent 'book' for the erratic Cleric?  Trickster and assassin.
When last we leave these two, Sarl has tied the Captain's head into his beard...  four-horned brother I thought to myself - two twists of Sarl's beard tied into two twists of hair was how I pictured it.
 
The twin souled Kelmomas and his similarly endowed ancestor Celmomas;
K is the essence of a chaotic trickster and lurking assassin, we don't know whether he's working against Kellhus or Yatwer but he apparently works towards claiming his mother (who bears Gierra's symbol on her wrist...).  Perhaps this is the reason Kellhus leaves the empire to her?
C's prophecy is the fulcrum of Kellhus' Ordeal...  but who sent that vision and is it true?  Celmomas died in the field against the No-god, and the Tsuramah tasted his soul.  Only Ajokli can see the no-god; this vision of an Anasurimbor returning at the End - it really seems to hinge on the fact that the No-god is the one to cause the apocolypse.  And if the gods granted that vision to Celmomas and Kellhus (or Kelmomas) is its fruition, then WHY would they oppose him as they do?

Anyway, I'm tired and rambling.  That's enough for now.

52
General Earwa / The Metaphysics of Earwa Adoption
« on: June 03, 2013, 04:02:11 pm »
Quote from: lockesnow
Kellhus has two adopted children: Moenghus and Mimara

1) Fantasy, typically, has a trope of privileging "Blood" above all else.  Hertitage--with a capital H--matters.  If someone is 'adopted' it's a royal who is just lying in wait.  It's never the adopted family that matters, his blood always supersedes that relationship.

2) The Real World, typically, makes a big deal about how there is no difference between adopted children and 'blood' children.  There is much proclaiming that it makes no difference.

What if, in Earwa, Kellhus adopting the children makes them the same? What if adoption works metaphysically in Earwa the way that we say it works in the real world, there is nothing to distinguish them they are anasurimbor in soul now.  It's not just a nominal formality; they are his children.

53
General Earwa / Speculation: Into Golgotterath
« on: June 03, 2013, 03:57:29 pm »
Quote from: Wilshire
Now that I've got some time off of school my brain has been on TSA overdrive.

Achamian is obviously Seswatha to some degree, and I think he will probably travel to the Arc at some point, he is just too damn close not too. But Seswatha didn't go alone, he took NC with him. So we need an NC stand it. Where is he going to get that?

The youngest son of the Anasurimbor was use last time, and that will likely not be the case. But consider the infadelity that may have caused NC to not actually be Anasurimbor, I think it is possible that Moenghus (Kellhus's "son") could fit the bill. Maybe NC was like Moe, in that no one talks about his heritage even though everyone knew...

Maybe that is why Kellhus had indulged the Nonmen with his daughter, son, enemy. The daughter/enemy are for something else, but his son could be for Akka.

 Akka/Moe make a nice pair to go explore the depth don't you think? A mage and a barbarian. I mean all they need now is a cleric and they've got everything you could want. A tank, a damage dealer, and a healer, they could run the shit out of that dungeon.

54
General Earwa / Chorae and the Carapace
« on: June 03, 2013, 03:45:56 pm »
Quote from: Duskweaver
OK, so I was thinking about the Greek words RSB chose for sorcery and its artefacts in tSA. They're mostly pretty obvious ('Gnosis' = 'Knowledge'; 'Anagogis' = 'Allegory'; 'Aporos' = 'Impasse'; 'Psukhe' = 'Soul'; you all know these already, right?), but for some reason I'd never really thought about what 'Chorae' meant. I think I sort of assumed it was something to do with 'chorus', as it drowns out the 'singing' of a sorcerer. But 'chora' is an actual Greek word, meaning 'country' (or 'realm' or 'region').

In The False Sun, RSB uses the word 'Ground' interchangably to refer to either worlds/planets or to what we might term 'spacetime' or 'the fabric of Reality' (the No-God's hunger bends it). A 'chora' is a relatively small (compared to the World), bounded piece of literal ground, with its own laws set by its creator/ruler. Replace 'ground' with 'Ground', and perhaps a Chorae is a small sub-reality with its own physical laws (e.g. "magic doesn't work here")? It is a 'Tear of God' (to the pseudo-pantheistic Inrithi at least) because a whole new Reality, even a very small and simple one, is by definition divine, with its own immanent Divine Presence. A Tear holds a tiny, distorted reflection of the Whole.

The No-God's carapace is an iron sarcophagus set with 11 Chorae (a curiously precise number). Now, what would eleven subrealities/'realms', each contained within a small sphere, arranged in the shape of a sarcophagus, actually look like?

Oh, right:

55
Quote from: Callan S.
On the tin.

In an interview Scott suggests people with the wrong faith/whole nations will be damned.

But if so, why no mark?

So why is a sorcerers mark - the blood of the onta - different to, say, the Captain and how he looks under the judging eye (keep in mind Akka looks crispy fried under the JE as well)?

What if, rather like blood spilt, it's an unintentional effect?

Then again I've forgotten the Kellhus given explanations of magic, so I might have forgotten stuff. Rereading TWP now.

56
General Earwa / The Prince of Nothing (Film)
« on: June 03, 2013, 03:04:20 pm »
Quote from: Jorge
No, sadly not yet confirmed on IMDB (someday!)

Here are currently popular actors and actresses that I can see filling the roles (click on the actor names to see a picture):

Kellhus - Chris Hemsworth, but basically you just need to cast an Aryan pretty-boy with some range.
Maithanet - Ditto.
Esmenet - this one was hard... you need a skilled actress who can do 'used up prostitute', 'erudite concubine' and 'empress of the empire'. I'm going with Salma Hayek.
Serwe - Hayden Panettiere
Cnaiur - Dalip Singh
Drusas Achmian - Erick Avari, although you'd need someone to play him as a boy and as a teenager in Atyersus.
Ikurei Comphas -Jonathan Rhys Meyers, again an Aryan pretty boy, but someone who can pull of "narcisistic psychopath" with no problem.
Krijates Xinemus - Ashraf Barhom (he was good in Agora and Coriolanus)
Eleazaras - Donald Southerland (come on, admit it, it would be badass!)
Iyokus - McCauley Culkin (he looks like he's been hitting the chanv pretty hard recently)

57
General Earwa / Biblical allusions in TSA
« on: June 03, 2013, 02:46:01 pm »
Quote from: Auriga
We all know that Bakker's fantasy world has been heavily inspired by the Old Testament, among other things. How many Biblical allusions and quotes can you find in the Second Apocalypse books?

The most obvious one would be the "dashed to pieces like a potter's vessel" line in the Seswatha flashback in TWP, obviously lifted from Psalms 2:9.

That part in TWW about the chosen 144, 000 who would survive the apocalypse also strikes me as very Biblical.

58
General Misc. / At work?
« on: June 03, 2013, 02:42:58 pm »
Quote from: Garet Jax
I am pretty sure that I am going to be fired for how much time I spend reading this forum...

59
General Earwa / Why Esmi?
« on: June 03, 2013, 02:40:04 pm »
Quote from: Wilshire
What makes her so special?

We know little about how the onta perception is past on, but Esmi has had two children from two different men that both can use the voice.
She's the mother of the child with the judging eye.
She is also the only one who can bare viable offspring to Kell.

What did Kell see in her? How is it that she is so genetically superior to other humans.
Sure its possible she won the magical genetic lottery, but thats a lot of chance. There should be some better explanation than that.

There are the wold conspires theories, but I've never fully been able to understand that so I'll not mess with it.
Then there are the gods. They all have various motives, maybe shes one of the chosen souls.
How about not chance or gods or conspiracies, but perhaps shes the product of an elaborate, centuries long breeding program. But then by who and for what purpose. No one but the nonmen would have the foresight and patients to derive such a scheme. It'd take a lot of time and control, specifically political power and money as well, and I can't see a whore in the slums being the child of such a scheme.

I dunno, I was hoping to flesh out a genetic breeding theory but I got tired and decided it was unlikely.

Anyone else?

60
General Earwa / Shimeh and the High Round
« on: June 03, 2013, 02:24:17 pm »
Quote from: Curethan
So I noticed that the High Round (the Mangecea's old stronghold, where Titirga was entombed) is in Shimeh.

Whatever that means.

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