[TUC Spoilers] Ajokli and the metaphysical whodunit

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SmilerLoki

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« Reply #120 on: October 11, 2017, 04:21:14 pm »
Scouting out the remaining members of the Consult, confirming there were Dunyain/who as left otherwise, expecting his sorcery to be enough, that sort of thing.
Here we most certainly would have to disagree, because, seeing that he is stepping right into the center of his enemies' power without any kind of backup, I don't consider what you outlined above rational reasons, I consider it pure folly.

I don't see the issue, but you're acting as though the whole 'getting more possessed as he got closer' thing is an entirely arbitrary measure.

Being arbitrary is fine when important events are clearly shown. Here, I don't see all of them shown unlike in the situation when Kellhus expects Ajokli to back him up.

I admittedly forgot they used sorcery at that point. Though, it doesn't really note how many possess it or to what degree.
Since Kellhus was able to develop Metagnosis almost instantly, assuming at least that level of proficiency seems reasonable.

I don't agree the Ordeal couldn't defeat the Consult without a god. Personally, I think Kellhus could have won, had he not been possessed. Wether Kellhus felt that way or not is a contention, but given the 'So soon?' line, it still seems to fall in line that they were to join him in challenge the Consult.
I should say that I was more confident in the Great Ordeal before reading "The Unholy Consult". After carefully examining the Ordeal's feats in the battle of the Ark, I do not share your assessment. I think they would have been exhausted by constant fighting and eventually destroyed. The ease with which the No-God decimates them is only reinforcing this conclusion.

The "So soon" line I interpret as Kellhus obfuscating the Ajokli matter and so formulating a more mundane plan that appears sound and can easily be one of his contingencies. But he was prepared to proceed regardless, that's why he goes in. This is my reading of the events.

Again, we know the process was gradual. Kellhus was there in some capacity until Ajokli was fully manifested. Given he was able to use the Metagnosis outside while compromsied and inside while compromised, just makes sense that it was him doing so.
I feel that at some point the magnitude of his presumed oversights while still being in possession of his faculties enough to function starts to stretch my suspension of disbelief too thin. But seeing that we disagree on the repercussions of Kellhus's hypothetical going into the Golden Room really alone (without a pact with Ajokli), this point is moot.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2017, 04:34:58 pm by SmilerLoki »

MSJ

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« Reply #121 on: October 11, 2017, 06:25:03 pm »
I do know this now that I thought about it. What happened in the GR was not Kellhus's plan. And, the Great Ordeal wasn't just a vehicle to deliver Ajokli to the Ark. And, I'm certain no pacts were made and if they're were, he wouldn't have even needed the GO. Bear with me.

If Kelllhus made a pact with Ajokli/Hell and got the decapitants as the mode in which Ajokli could manifest in the GR, his little taxi can you might say, there wouldn't have been a GO. He would have translocated himself, avoided all those battles, and caught the Consult unaware and went straight into the GR. He didn't need the greatest army in humanity to do that. Because when it comes down to it that's what he did. And, as pointed out above (sorry, I don't know who), it clearly wasn't the plan. Serwe fights the Dragon to force here way into the GR, because her father entered too early and that must not have been the plan. And, if that's what Kellhus would be done along, why would he waste that much of humanity? One man translocating would definitely be more covert than 100,000 humans crossing the land. No, it doesn't make any sense, imho.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

SmilerLoki

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« Reply #122 on: October 11, 2017, 06:38:58 pm »
If Kelllhus made a pact with Ajokli/Hell and got the decapitants as the mode in which Ajokli could manifest in the GR, his little taxi can you might say, there wouldn't have been a GO.
I feel that in this regard the Ordeal is both a contingency and a convenience. The former is fairly obvious. In the case of the latter, let's say Kellhus deals with the Consult without the Ordeal. There is still the Ark that needs to be scrutinized (Kellhus can't be in many places at once), hosts that need to be exterminated, Erratics that need to be cleared out of the Ark, a dragon that needs to learn to respect women, and so on. Not to mention Kellhus needs to sleep, eat, and isn't a stranger to comfort.

Also, basically moving his base of operations (i.e. the Great Ordeal) closer and closer to Golgotterath allowed Kellhus to preserve his strength instead of exerting himself with continuous Translocations. He wasn't in his top form when he came for Esmenet at the end of TGO.

MSJ

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« Reply #123 on: October 11, 2017, 06:43:08 pm »
He didn't have to do it in a day. We know had stashes. That could have been set up before his final translocated to the Ark. What I am saying if he made a pact, Then he wasn't gonna use anyone in the GR but Ajokli. And he'll, this woulve worked, no Kelmommas.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

SmilerLoki

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« Reply #124 on: October 11, 2017, 06:47:38 pm »
He didn't have to do it in a day. We know had stashes. That could have been set up before his final translocated to the Ark. What I am saying if he made a pact, Then he wasn't gonna use anyone in the GR but Ajokli. And he'll, this woulve worked, no Kelmommas.
There is still cleaning up afterward. And the possibility of his stashes being compromised by many dangers of the North, while an army can react to those.

JerakoKayne

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« Reply #125 on: October 12, 2017, 12:50:57 am »
He didn't have to do it in a day. We know had stashes. That could have been set up before his final translocated to the Ark. What I am saying if he made a pact, Then he wasn't gonna use anyone in the GR but Ajokli. And he'll, this woulve worked, no Kelmommas.

This is what leads me to think there was some kind of "pact" made between the two. If Kellhus really wasn't aware of Ajokli's presence in him, what else made him think he was walking into Conditioned Ground? In a place he had never been? I'd argue that it was his knowledge that the topos must exist. He was walking into hell, in which Ajoklhus really is the "master"

I use that name because I really don't understand why it has to be a binary split between the two. I don't believe there even is a line where Kellhus ends and Ajokli begins. It's been a blend, or at the very least a kind of rotation (like his assessment of the Kelmomas/Samarmas personality). Since at least Dagliash, if I remember Himself's words on the topic from somewhere.

Ajoklhus walked into the Golden Room fully expecting he was already master of the place.

edit - To elaborate a little more while my thoughts are still on this, it seems especially clear with the conversation at the IF. Kellhus was already prepared to gaze into it, because he already mastered his damnation as hunger (i.e. before the full "possession"). The afterlife is a circumstance he has already become the dominator of. That's obviously what he got out of the relationship, whereas Ajokli's presence/vision into the World was his gain from the pact.

That much seemed implicit to me, but it's also interesting to hear from another POV where it's not.

But I wonder how people reconcile Kellhus' knowledge of the "darkness" without knowledge of Ajokli. He trained for thirty years to know and conquer the darkness within, but (talking to Proyas, IIRC) he just sort of accepts it as being there, and doesn't seem concerned about his lack of mastery of it? Why? I'd argue that it's because he's already accepted it as Ajokli.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2017, 01:05:28 am by JerakoKayne »

TaoHorror

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« Reply #126 on: October 12, 2017, 01:11:12 am »
He didn't have to do it in a day. We know had stashes. That could have been set up before his final translocated to the Ark. What I am saying if he made a pact, Then he wasn't gonna use anyone in the GR but Ajokli. And he'll, this woulve worked, no Kelmommas.

This is what leads me to think there was some kind of "pact" made between the two. If Kellhus really wasn't aware of Ajokli's presence in him, what else made him think he was walking into Conditioned Ground? In a place he had never been? I'd argue that it was his knowledge that the topos must exist. He was walking into hell, in which Ajoklhus really is the "master"

I use that name because I really don't understand why it has to be a binary split between the two. I don't believe there even is a line where Kellhus ends and Ajokli begins. It's been a blend, or at the very least a kind of rotation (like his assessment of the Kelmomas/Samarmas personality). Since at least Dagliash, if I remember Himself's words on the topic from somewhere.

Ajoklhus walked into the Golden Room fully expecting he was already master of the place.

edit - To elaborate a little more while my thoughts are still on this, it seems especially clear with the conversation at the IF. Kellhus was already prepared to gaze into it, because he already mastered his damnation as hunger (i.e. before the full "possession"). The afterlife is a circumstance he has already become the dominator of. That's obviously what he got out of the relationship, whereas Ajokli's presence/vision into the World was his gain from the pact.

That much seemed implicit to me, but it's also interesting to hear from another POV where it's not.

But I wonder how people reconcile Kellhus' knowledge of the "darkness" without knowledge of Ajokli. He trained for thirty years to know and conquer the darkness within, but (talking to Proyas, IIRC) he just sort of accepts it as being there, and doesn't seem concerned about mastering it? Why? I'd argue that it's because he's already accepted it as Ajokli.

I've been afraid to pollute this killer conversation, but finally someone has posted something similar to my take on this ( no offense, JK ). When I first read it, it appeared to me he brought in divine power as a strategy, he was aware of his "possession". Cleric was aware of his own possession as well. I was afraid for Kellhus when he went in by himself, even though he dispatched Aurang so easily and the decapitant didn't appear to be enough backup - so was relieved when Ajokli seized him ( didn't really know that's how he showed up until I read Bakker's explanation, just thought they traded places when I first read it ) and the chorae was neutralized, etc. Ajokli seemed like he was "invited" to accompany him, but there was a cost to this arrangement, mainly to Kellhus's judgement ( again, didn't tied that up until I read Bakker's explanation, I was initially confused why he let Kel live, etc ). I do think Bakker expects too much of us to have understood all of that on our own, so the conversation/debate going on here is valid.
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MSJ

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« Reply #127 on: October 12, 2017, 01:35:07 am »
Quote from:  JK
This is what leads me to think there was some kind of "pact" made between the two. If Kellhus really wasn't aware of Ajokli's presence in him, what else made him think he was walking into Conditioned Ground? In a place he had never been? I'd argue that it was his knowledge that the topos must exist. He was walking into hell, in which Ajoklhus really is the "master"

I use that name because I really don't understand why it has to be a binary split between the two. I don't believe there even is a line where Kellhus ends and Ajokli begins. It's been a blend, or at the very least a kind of rotation (like his assessment of the Kelmomas/Samarmas personality). Since at least Dagliash, if I remember Himself's words on the topic from somewhere.

Ajoklhus walked into the Golden Room fully expecting he was already master of the place.

edit - To elaborate a little more while my thoughts are still on this, it seems especially clear with the conversation at the IF. Kellhus was already prepared to gaze into it, because he already mastered his damnation as hunger (i.e. before the full "possession"). The afterlife is a circumstance he has already become the dominator of. That's obviously what he got out of the relationship, whereas Ajokli's presence/vision into the World was his gain from the pact.

But, he doesn't know that he is be I g taking slowly over. He is unaware, hence no pact. Frankly, I can see there being a pact and not being one. Why I lean towards there not be I g one, or that Kellhus would betray that pact, is because of the Great Ordeal.

As I said before, if there was a pact, he could of translocated up there and with Ajokli divine intervention take over the Consult. The Bashrag, the stance and all the rest all mean nothing.

But, why I really don't think there was a pact between Kellhus and Ajokli, is because of what Ajokli says when he manifests. He usurped Kellhus, was going to use the DunSult as his goons to rule over a hell on Earth. This doesn't jive with Bakker's own statement that Kellhus goal was to destroy the Consult and save humanity. No, Kellhus was caught unaware.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

JerakoKayne

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« Reply #128 on: October 12, 2017, 01:42:35 am »

But, why I really don't think there was a pact between Kellhus and Ajokli, is because of what Ajokli says when he manifests. He usurped Kellhus, was going to use the DunSult as his goons to rule over a hell on Earth. This doesn't jive with Bakker's own statement that Kellhus goal was to destroy the Consult and save humanity. No, Kellhus was caught unaware.

They do have different motivations, and they do both have a penchant for betrayal. Ajokli betraying Kellhus' trust is not proof that he didn't gain the trust, first. Kellhus was aware, even if unaware of Ajokli's true intent.

Thus his acceptance of the darkness that comes before him. I read that as the agreed upon access point for Ajokli-through-Kellhus. Thus why Kellhus no longer makes any attempt to master his darkness, but embraces it, instead. Literally embracing, in the sense of Kellhus' true DTCB vestigial passions (Esmenet), and in his refusal to conquer it. He accepts TDTCB because he actually has to, as the agreed upon route for Ajokli's aid.

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« Reply #129 on: October 12, 2017, 02:25:48 am »
Put me on Team Kellhus made a pact with Ajokli (and others). It makes zero sense to me that that would be Ajokli making mention of it. Why would he make a pact w/the pit. He is the pit. The lord of hate does not make a pact w/his servants. I do not make a pact w/an ant that crosses my kitchen.

I think its fair to say that Kellhus is influenced but not yet fully possessed until the head of burning flame emerges and that its almost impossible to parse with precision the motivations for entering the GR at that time. Serwa certainly seems concerned at the timing while who cares what Kayu thinks (hes basically a worthless character, imo).

Its still TBD who tricked whom in the Kellhus vs Ajokli contest. We have no way of knowing until TNG appears in a few years. And as for Ajokli needing to be w/in X distance of the GR/topos to manifest that doesnt explain how he can then manifest as Cnauir, unless TNG is a whirlwind of topos, which i dont buy.

Sausuna

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« Reply #130 on: October 12, 2017, 12:54:17 pm »
But I wonder how people reconcile Kellhus' knowledge of the "darkness" without knowledge of Ajokli. He trained for thirty years to know and conquer the darkness within, but (talking to Proyas, IIRC) he just sort of accepts it as being there, and doesn't seem concerned about his lack of mastery of it? Why? I'd argue that it's because he's already accepted it as Ajokli.
I want to make note that I'm somewhat leaning towards the idea that Kellhus made a deal with Ajokli for his aid, that his plan was to have the Ordeal and his family aid him in the Golden Room, and perhaps that Ajokli was suppose to aid him somehow. But not by possessing him. I think we either need to assume he didn't tell his family this part or the aid from Ajokli wasn't mean to result in any sort of manifestation. I find it hard to reconcile the idea that he wouldn't either tell his plan to Serwa/Kayutas or at least let them know he planned on going in alone.

That tangent aside! I think two things stick out as possible reasons he'd acknowledge the growing darkness without knowing Ajokli was the cause.
- The idea that the growing Darkness/compromised spirit is harming his ability to analyze it. Given Bakker's comments on "He failed to execute on the Thousandfold Thought because he took the stability of his personal identity for granted." If his soul itself was being influenced, it may well be he was unable to recognize the alterations in himself. I think the idea of how Cants of Compulsion work could be argued as a similar principle.
- The dude was busy, by accounts making other mistakes (not being aware Esmenet would free Kelmomas) because of it. He was ordering the numerous thousands of the Ordeal, watching for Skin-Spies, teleporting numerous times (I think he notes the process eventually tires him too, but I might be misremembering), and undergoing a possibly unknown spiritual siege compromising himself. I think he might have just been too over-focused on the prize to stop and self-analyze.




The main reason I'm stilling thinking Ajokli not showing as part of the plan relates to the Serwa/Kayutas scene and Bakker's comment. That they thought Kellhus was facing the Consult alone and needed their help. And that Kellhus 'failed to execute The Thousandfold Thought.' So whether or not Ajokli was suppose to help somehow, I still don't think going in like he did was part of the plan.

TaoHorror

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« Reply #131 on: October 12, 2017, 02:35:47 pm »
Call it a pact, deal, relationship or what have you - if there's simply nothing objective ( conversation, teaming ) between Kellhus and Ajokli, then how did Ajokli possess him? Is the power that Ajokli can possess anyone he wants if they close in near/to a Topos? I think the 2 of them went into the Ark together in some form or fashion and if not invited, then a nice coincidence Ajokli saved Kellhus's life by seizing him in that moment ( i.e. neutralizing the chorae wielding Consult ) - to me, this is clearly a protective move for Kellhus.
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Sausuna

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« Reply #132 on: October 12, 2017, 03:16:11 pm »
Call it a pact, deal, relationship or what have you - if there's simply nothing objective ( conversation, teaming ) between Kellhus and Ajokli, then how did Ajokli possess him? Is the power that Ajokli can possess anyone he wants if they close in near/to a Topos? I think the 2 of them went into the Ark together in some form or fashion and if not invited, then a nice coincidence Ajokli saved Kellhus's life by seizing him in that moment ( i.e. neutralizing the chorae wielding Consult ) - to me, this is clearly a protective move for Kellhus.
I mean, I'd say there is a fair difference between a pact/deal/teaming and a relationship/conversation. If we're to believe Ajokli was speaking to Kellhus as far back as The Holy War, it might be his use of an Inversion made him more susceptible to the possession in the first place. Not that I'm claiming there wasn't some sort of deal, as I noted above. Just that possession isn't confirmation of a deal.

MSJ

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« Reply #133 on: October 12, 2017, 04:33:20 pm »
Well, Ajokli certainly didn't come out of no where. I think the head on the like scene, he is the most crocodillian of Sons. Wether pact was made or not, in sure there was agreements and such, because Kellhus is the Inverse Prophet.

I take that entry in the glossary as Kellhus figuring out a way to dupe Ajokli. Practicing. Seeing what and how to escape the deal or what have you.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

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« Reply #134 on: October 13, 2017, 11:43:46 am »
Well, I don't think we can discount that Kellhus might have known of his own demise.

He even intimates to Proyas: "The thing—the most horrific thing to understand, Proyas, is that at some point the Inchoroi must win."

So, I don't think it is all together implausible to think that Kellhus prepared himself for some eventuality of failure, even if he was unaware of what that failure would be.  I do think that Kellhus was purposely allowing Ajokli to work through him, plausibly he might have thought he could exercise some control, or perhaps not.  I don't think that is the point though, the point was to deliver Ajokli to the Golden Room.

Bakker tells us that the Thousandfold Thought failed though.  This is because it was predicated to win.  But Kellhus already knew, as per the quote above, that the whole endeavor was doomed to fail.  The question, of course, is not what Kellhus had planned (because the Golden Room was a singularity, a place which, past it, the rules are different and nothing can be inferred) but rather, what contingencies were he prepared for.  His own death certainly seems like something he, at least, should have considered.

As such, it doesn't surprise me that Bakker would tell us that Kellhus is dead, but is not done.
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira