How tall are the Horns?

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Rots

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« on: September 22, 2017, 05:26:13 pm »
Someone out there must be better at math than me - does anyone have a decent idea how tall these things are? iirc the canted horn is described as taking something like 30 heartbeats to fall. The word "leagues" gets tossed around in one description of the horn falling to the plain, i think, also.

The Ark almost certainly was built in space wherever it came from. That sort of mass would be heinously hard to launch out of any sort of earth like gravitational field.

Also, randomly, why did Aurax open the door from the Vigil into the Golden Room? Is it as simple as death = damnation and he would do anything to live longer even though he was 99.999999999% certain Kellhus would kill him the second the door opened?

Also, randomly, why did the dunsult make a seemingly legit effort to kill Kellhus when as far as we know they also needed him to be TNG (at least until the last 20+ hours when Kel came into their clutches)? They need TNG to close off the world and stave off damnation and they they are going around trying to kill their shot at Resumption. Doesnt really make sense. Unless its all performative. When you have two sets of Dunyain (and a god!) claiming that the ground is conditioned in their favor motive/subject/object gets confusing in the extreme.

the book continues to definitely sit better with me after my re-read but there are still some ridiculous Chekhov gun scenarios running around. Oh well..

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« Reply #1 on: September 22, 2017, 05:34:53 pm »
I remember there was a glossary entry about this. The Isuphiryas gives the height of th eUpright Horn as one thousand tens, or ten thousand Nonman cubits. By Sohonc accounts, which rely on mathematics and the measurement of shadows, put the height at some nine thousand seven-hundred and twenty-four Umeritic cubits, or little less than half the height reported by the Nonmen.

A cubit is suppose to be roughly the length of one's finger to elbow. Which is about half a meter. So by the Sohonc, around 4862 meters, roughly 15951.44. Unless I'm absolutely garbage at math and conversion, which I am.


Edit - didn't see the other questions.
- Yes, I think Aurang was doing his absolute best to just not be killed.
- There was another thread about this. I think, personally, this is because they felt there were other options to make the No-God. That they could technically use someone else.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2017, 06:03:58 pm by Sausuna »

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« Reply #2 on: September 22, 2017, 05:56:44 pm »
Holy toledo - 3 miles long? That's some mad engineering going on there - I pegged it at 100 stories tall ( size of tall skyscraper ) putting it at 500 meters, but that was just from impression, no math on my part ( which is still TALL ). Being 3 miles tall, that would make ascension/descension take hours perhaps, but the story reads it's traversed faster ... er, I think. Anyways, I have no clue, really, so will rely on the mathematicians here to report - and you're right, at this size, would've had to be constructed in space or on a planetoid with low gravity.

You mean, Aurang? Aurang was traumatized from his wings being clipped and had to think fast - certain death ( if he didn't open the door ) or likely death ( opening the door ). Same thing when a dirty cop has a gun to your head asking for the location of your stash, knowing if you tell him you'll likely be killed for ratting - but certain death if you don't.

I think the Dunsult didn't try to assassinate Kel ( gods tried to assassinate him, but I don't recollect The Consult trying - we never see a skinspy throw a chorae at him, for example ). I think what we see are The Consult's attacks on TGO, not Kel himself. I think they would've been able to salt Kel if they really wanted to - as we see in the final scene, with all of Kel's capabilities, just takes some chorae to finish him off. We see the hundred holding chorae only when it appears they were unsuccessful in "turning" Kel - they could've probably salted him at any time once he was in the Ark. The nuke, the scranc, et al were to thwart TGO, not Kel himself.
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Rots

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« Reply #3 on: September 22, 2017, 06:57:44 pm »
I remember there was a glossary entry about this. The Isuphiryas gives the height of th eUpright Horn as one thousand tens, or ten thousand Nonman cubits. By Sohonc accounts, which rely on mathematics and the measurement of shadows, put the height at some nine thousand seven-hundred and twenty-four Umeritic cubits, or little less than half the height reported by the Nonmen.

A cubit is suppose to be roughly the length of one's finger to elbow. Which is about half a meter. So by the Sohonc, around 4862 meters, roughly 15951.44. Unless I'm absolutely garbage at math and conversion, which I am.

Yeah, i tihnk a cubit is ~1.5 feet in length. Thanks for the knowledge/math! It puts me in mind of Mt. Rainier and the overarching prominence of it when seen from over 100 miles away on a clear day in the PNW. Good stuff.

SuJuroit

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« Reply #4 on: September 22, 2017, 08:23:03 pm »
Quote
Also, randomly, why did Aurax open the door from the Vigil into the Golden Room? Is it as simple as death = damnation and he would do anything to live longer even though he was 99.999999999% certain Kellhus would kill him the second the door opened?

I think that's correct, yes.  Remember Shaeonanra's perspective from the False Sun after being exposed to the Inverse Fire; NOTHING is worse than death, because death means damnation.

Quote
Also, randomly, why did the dunsult make a seemingly legit effort to kill Kellhus when as far as we know they also needed him to be TNG (at least until the last 20+ hours when Kel came into their clutches)? They need TNG to close off the world and stave off damnation and they they are going around trying to kill their shot at Resumption.

As others have said, I don't think they really were trying to kill Kellhus directly until he rebuffed their attempts to get him on board.  That said, I don't think the Dunsult would have been particularly broken up over his death; there are other Anasurimbors and Kellhus represented the only significant direct threat to them.

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« Reply #5 on: September 23, 2017, 02:09:33 am »
First off, I love attempts to communicate vistas through words because vistas are awesome. The Horns would be quite the sight to reconcile.

We can at least attribute natural/constructed wonders to nature/humans (allegedly).

Also, randomly, why did Aurax open the door from the Vigil into the Golden Room? Is it as simple as death = damnation and he would do anything to live longer even though he was 99.999999999% certain Kellhus would kill him the second the door opened?

Also, randomly, why did the dunsult make a seemingly legit effort to kill Kellhus when as far as we know they also needed him to be TNG (at least until the last 20+ hours when Kel came into their clutches)? They need TNG to close off the world and stave off damnation and they they are going around trying to kill their shot at Resumption. Doesnt really make sense. Unless its all performative. When you have two sets of Dunyain (and a god!) claiming that the ground is conditioned in their favor motive/subject/object gets confusing in the extreme.

I don't think they ever tried to kill Kellhus, rather they wanted to guide him to the Golden Room. Hell, we can argue that even the Skin-Spies with Chorae were simply a last ditch attempt to corral Kellhus into the Carapace should reason not persuade him.
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« Reply #6 on: September 23, 2017, 08:21:56 am »
Aurang's mission seemed to be to supervise the defense and then retreat inside, drawing Kellhus after him and exposing him to the Inverse Fire.  This went sideways, which happens in combat, and he ended up dead.

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« Reply #7 on: September 24, 2017, 12:13:34 am »
I don't think they ever tried to kill Kellhus, rather they wanted to guide him to the Golden Room. Hell, we can argue that even the Skin-Spies with Chorae were simply a last ditch attempt to corral Kellhus into the Carapace should reason not persuade him.

That's what I was thinking when they first arrived and I holy shitted myself thinking he better get his ass in there ... until that fucker salted him. He apparently felt the same, otherwise instead of stuttering to this son with surprise/confusion, he would've high tailed it outta there assuming he could've transposed in time. That was such a menacing scene, I loved it.
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« Reply #8 on: September 25, 2017, 05:44:05 pm »
Aurang's mission seemed to be to supervise the defense and then retreat inside, drawing Kellhus after him and exposing him to the Inverse Fire.  This went sideways, which happens in combat, and he ended up dead.

I really enjoyed that, despite knowing about the Metagnosis, Aurang tries the same Lust-Glamour on Kellhus directly that he used in TTT via the Synthese...

I actually thought that Kellhus was going to fuck Aurang first and then kill him while reading the draft. In the end, Aurang still just wanted to get laid ;).
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« Reply #9 on: September 25, 2017, 08:17:16 pm »
Quote from:  Madness
I really enjoyed that, despite knowing about the Metagnosis, Aurang tries the same Lust-Glamour on Kellhus directly that he used in TTT via the Synthese...

I actually thought that Kellhus was going to fuck Aurang first and then kill him while reading the draft. In the end, Aurang still just wanted to get laid ;).

This got me thinking and you know when MSJ thinks...revelations not far away....lol. Anywho, I presume that Aurang was using the Cants of Compulsion on Kelly is too, right? I have to go back and read it, but I felt that was being implied. And, we're using the CoC as the way Shae would subsume the Mutilated. It stands to reason that wouldn't have Kellhus have fail to the same CoC? I could just be making shite up though, but I think he did use them on him.
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« Reply #10 on: September 25, 2017, 08:21:40 pm »
Sorry can't edit. In and out on phone. Anyway, this could be a clue that Kelhus's passion is stronger than that of the Mutilated. Being with the worldborn, have feelings for Serwe, then Esme. Kellhus was and is truly more. In fact I know Aurang used the CoX, because Kellhus shakes out of it there at the end.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

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« Reply #11 on: September 26, 2017, 01:25:17 am »

I really enjoyed that, despite knowing about the Metagnosis, Aurang tries the same Lust-Glamour on Kellhus directly that he used in TTT via the Synthese...


Since he's there in person, Aurang has his phermones to back his play.

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« Reply #12 on: September 26, 2017, 04:18:31 pm »
This got me thinking and you know when MSJ thinks...revelations not far away....lol. Anywho, I presume that Aurang was using the Cants of Compulsion on Kelly is too, right? I have to go back and read it, but I felt that was being implied. And, we're using the CoC as the way Shae would subsume the Mutilated. It stands to reason that wouldn't have Kellhus have fail to the same CoC? I could just be making shite up though, but I think he did use them on him.

Nah, Kellhus wouldn't be as vulnerable as the Mutilated because he had the Gnosis before anyone might have had a chance to Compel him.

Though, now that you mention that - who might have Kellhus Compelled in his twenty years?!

Since he's there in person, Aurang has his phermones to back his play.

True say.
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SuJuroit

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« Reply #13 on: September 26, 2017, 05:57:55 pm »
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Though, now that you mention that - who might have Kellhus Compelled in his twenty years?!

Now THAT's a really interesting question.  Heck, the entire concept of the Cants of Compulsion is really interesting.  I imagine they're not constantly and pervasively used in the pre-Kellhus Three Seas simply because most people worth Compelling would have access to a chorae.  Plus sorcerors need to keep a low profile in most nations other than High Ainon.  Trying to Compel powerful political, religious or economic players would be extremely risky.

But Kellhus?  He's all about the Shortest Path, and as the Aspect Emperor, he'd have the institutional might to do it and run roughshod over anybody who dared complain.  But on the other hand, the whole point of overwhelming institutional power is that you don't HAVE to force recalcitrant individuals to believe.  Fear and social pressure will keep people in line.  Plus anybody that's Compelled could be freed of Compulsion by the touch of a chorae; that's risky.  Perhaps it'd be safer for Kellhus to simply use his Dunyain powers of manipulation to "make them love"; requires a bit more effort on his part, but gets a much more robust, permanant result, and Kellhus would only need to bother with really key players.  The more I think about it, the more I'm inclined to believe that Kellhus didn't rely heavily on Cants of Compulsion at all after becoming Aspect Emperor.

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« Reply #14 on: September 27, 2017, 03:20:56 pm »
Plus anybody that's Compelled could be freed of Compulsion by the touch of a chorae; that's risky.

I don't know that this is fact?
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