The Second Apocalypse

Earwa => The Aspect-Emperor => The Great Ordeal => Topic started by: H on January 02, 2017, 12:31:42 pm

Title: [TGO SPOILERS] [TUC Spoilers!] Akka's Dreams (MG Teaser #1)
Post by: H on January 02, 2017, 12:31:42 pm
(http://i.imgur.com/FlaFwRy.jpg?1)

So, what are we to make of this?

First things that come to mind:

The changes to the Dreams are either Seswatha moving Akka in a way that is similar to Kellhus disillusioning Proyas, or when Kellhus forced the Gnosis from Akka, he changed the dreams themselves (and presumably still is).

Second, it would seem that it's just Akka being deceived, so the Dreams (in the usual sense) are not lies.  So, it must be the changes that are deceiving him.

That being said, what are the changes?  And so, what could be the deceptive parts of them then?
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] [TUC Spoilers!] Akka's Dreams (MG Teaser #1)
Post by: profgrape on January 03, 2017, 09:59:59 pm
As a refresher, here's a link to Madness' summary of the Dreams from TDTCB through Chapter 3 of TGO:

http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=1104.msg11491#msg11491

Quote
That being said, what are the changes?  And so, what could be the deceptive parts of them then?

I think the answer to the latter part of your question (what could be the deceptive parts) comes down to the Dreams' shifting purpose.  Breaking things down:

1) In TDTCB, TWP and TTT, the Seswatha Dreams are (mostly) all about keeping the horrors of the First Apocalypse fresh in the Mandatis' minds' so they're motivated to prevent a potential Second Apocalypse. 

2) In TJE, the Seswatha Dreams shift to push Akka toward Ishual via the map case in the Coffers.

3) In WLW, we start to get Nau-Cayuti Dreams with a purpose that's as-yet unclear. 

I suspect that the deception is with 2).  After spending 1-2 years thinking that Kellhus was behind the Ishual dreams, I'm now leaning toward thinking that it was the Consult.  Somehow, they were able to manipulate his link to Seswatha such that the Dreams changed and over time, revealed the location of Ishual, leading to its destruction.  I can't remember when the Dreams changed.  But the timing might just line up with the destruction of Ishual as measured by the age of Kellhus' grandson.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] [TUC Spoilers!] Akka's Dreams (MG Teaser #1)
Post by: Yellow on January 07, 2017, 07:17:02 pm
The first time the dreams changed in a significant way (in my opinion) was at the end of TTT, when Anaxophus missed with the Heron Spear.

Comments by Bakker on Westeros appear to suggest (at least they didn't deny) that it has something to do with Kelly's hypnosis on Akka.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] [TUC Spoilers!] Akka's Dreams (MG Teaser #1)
Post by: Simas Polchias on January 07, 2017, 07:41:18 pm
I dunno if that's a "good" deceit or a "bad" one.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] [TUC Spoilers!] Akka's Dreams (MG Teaser #1)
Post by: H on January 09, 2017, 12:46:23 pm
I dunno if that's a "good" deceit or a "bad" one.

Well, a good/bad dichotomy isn't usually the most telling, since that would depend on which "side" you are on.

A better question is, who is behind the deceit and what aim does the deception serve?
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] [TUC Spoilers!] Akka's Dreams (MG Teaser #1)
Post by: Monkhound on January 09, 2017, 01:30:39 pm
The first time the dreams changed in a significant way (in my opinion) was at the end of TTT, when Anaxophus missed with the Heron Spear.

Comments by Bakker on Westeros appear to suggest (at least they didn't deny) that it has something to do with Kelly's hypnosis on Akka.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

Got a link to the Westeros thread? :)
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] [TUC Spoilers!] Akka's Dreams (MG Teaser #1)
Post by: Madness on January 09, 2017, 06:54:29 pm
Great Ordeal feedback (http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/143766-great-ordeal-feedback/#comment-7767558)
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] [TUC Spoilers!] Akka's Dreams (MG Teaser #1)
Post by: H on January 10, 2017, 02:42:41 pm
The first time the dreams changed in a significant way (in my opinion) was at the end of TTT, when Anaxophus missed with the Heron Spear.

Comments by Bakker on Westeros appear to suggest (at least they didn't deny) that it has something to do with Kelly's hypnosis on Akka.

I had forgotten about that.  I guess I need to avail myself to the idea that Kellhus is really behind the changed Dreams.  Still though, the question of why is paramount to me?  What do the changed Dreams serve?  Unless it is literally just a side-effect of what Kellhus did to ply the Gnosis.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] [TUC Spoilers!] Akka's Dreams (MG Teaser #1)
Post by: MSJ on January 10, 2017, 04:27:19 pm
The first time the dreams changed in a significant way (in my opinion) was at the end of TTT, when Anaxophus missed with the Heron Spear.

Comments by Bakker on Westeros appear to suggest (at least they didn't deny) that it has something to do with Kelly's hypnosis on Akka.

I had forgotten about that.  I guess I need to avail myself to the idea that Kellhus is really behind the changed Dreams.  Still though, the question of why is paramount to me?  What do the changed Dreams serve?  Unless it is literally just a side-effect of what Kellhus did to ply the Gnosis.

I've always been stuck to the idea that the changes started in TDTCB. When he is with Esmi, he has a dream that he is Seswatha, but when he looks in the mirror he sees himself. He notes it was off and though there have always been descrepancies, it felt different. Though, after TGO, if I had to guess, Kellhus is manipulating them along with everything else.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] [TUC Spoilers!] Akka's Dreams (MG Teaser #1)
Post by: Monkhound on January 10, 2017, 04:55:17 pm
How about: What is the purpose of the Dreams? There is the story about Seswatha behind it, of course, but what are the things we do know of him for fact exactly? That he doesn't shit and that his accounts do not match historical accounts (the Sagas). It wouldn't be the first time we (and people in the books)  were deluded. We discovered earlier that an unexpected someone was lurking behind the Tusk as well to instil hatred: It could be that someone twisted part of Seswatha's story with the purpose of keeping some Hatred alive.
Hatred seems to have a purpose more often in the series (Serwa & Sorweel, Meppa, Cnaiür). Hatred of whom or what for, and instilled by whom, are the questions to answer.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] [TUC Spoilers!] Akka's Dreams (MG Teaser #1)
Post by: H on January 10, 2017, 06:59:58 pm
Well, I think the purpose of the "standard issue" Dreams is pretty much as stated, because without them aligning the Mandate versus the Consult, the latter could easily play the waiting game until they were sufficiently forgotten.  Also, presumably the same mechanism is what protects the Gnosis, which places the Mandate above the other schools, securing them from being eliminated in some inter-scholastic war.  I always had a feeling, as Akka's dreams changed, that Dream Seswatha and actual Seswatha are only somewhat related.  That is, Seswatha of the Dreams was the idealistic Seswatha that the Mandate need to believe in to do what they must.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] [TUC Spoilers!] Akka's Dreams (MG Teaser #1)
Post by: MSJ on January 10, 2017, 08:09:57 pm
How about: What is the purpose of the Dreams? There is the story about Seswatha behind it, of course, but what are the things we do know of him for fact exactly? That he doesn't shit and that his accounts do not match historical accounts (the Sagas). It wouldn't be the first time we (and people in the books)  were deluded. We discovered earlier that an unexpected someone was lurking behind the Tusk as well to instil hatred: It could be that someone twisted part of Seswatha's story with the purpose of keeping some Hatred alive.
Hatred seems to have a purpose more often in the series (Serwa & Sorweel, Meppa, Cnaiür). Hatred of whom or what for, and instilled by whom, are the questions to answer.

As H said, it is to remember. To keep the threat of the Consult alive in the Three-Seas. I don't think that it's going to be that Seswatha didnt exist, just that he altered the Dreams from reality to fit his purpose. He definitely wasnt aligned with the Consult and we know the Consults hate for him because of the SS's "Chigra" reaction to any Mandati. The deception is either the extent of what actually happened in the FA or that Kellhus has been manipulating them to his own ends. I don't see any textual evidence for much else.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] [TUC Spoilers!] Akka's Dreams (MG Teaser #1)
Post by: H on January 10, 2017, 08:35:07 pm
As H said, it is to remember. To keep the threat of the Consult alive in the Three-Seas. I don't think that it's going to be that Seswatha didnt exist, just that he altered the Dreams from reality to fit his purpose. He definitely wasnt aligned with the Consult and we know the Consults hate for him because of the SS's "Chigra" reaction to any Mandati. The deception is either the extent of what actually happened in the FA or that Kellhus has been manipulating them to his own ends. I don't see any textual evidence for much else.

I think it might be plausible to extrapolate from the Glossary entries (about how Nau-Cayûti might have been his son) that real-life Seswatha was as much of a bastard as Kellhus' (or at least similar in using people to his own ends).  We often think of it as one must be true, but what if the "standard" Dreams are lies and Akka's Dreams are lies?  Both just set toward different aims?
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] [TUC Spoilers!] Akka's Dreams (MG Teaser #1)
Post by: Monkhound on January 11, 2017, 04:57:44 pm
I agree that a purpose of the Dreams is to remember. That doesn't mean there isn't be an additional one. I'm not saying Seswatha never existed, but I still somehow expect a plot twist about the standard dreams .
But I agree it's much more likely that the deception through the Dreams happens mostly to Achamian.

Also I remember the passage where we discover Seswatha may have been the father of Nau-Cayuti is described in one of the books as well, as a dream sequence.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] [TUC Spoilers!] Akka's Dreams (MG Teaser #1)
Post by: Wilshire on January 11, 2017, 05:28:20 pm
Some theories came about when we got the TGO chapter excerpt that the dreams are a method for Seswatha to escape damnation like Shae and his circle of amputees, i think considering that Kellhus allegedly spoke to Seswatha way back in PoN. Maybe those theories are that old.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] [TUC Spoilers!] Akka's Dreams (MG Teaser #1)
Post by: Monkhound on January 12, 2017, 05:33:05 pm
Some theories came about when we got the TGO chapter excerpt that the dreams are a method for Seswatha to escape damnation like Shae and his circle of amputees, i think considering that Kellhus allegedly spoke to Seswatha way back in PoN. Maybe those theories are that old.

I like the idea and was thinking along similar lines during TGO: That Seswatha's Heart has to be a conduit through which his Spirit/Soul stays connected to the World, while he himself is hiding in some real or artificial Deepest Deep. Basically not unlike Shaeönanra is doing.
It could possibly even extend to "every Mandate schoolman", seeing the "thoughts" we get during Achamian's torture, as well as the mental takeover during the encounter with Aurang ("but the days are new,  Chigra").
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] [TUC Spoilers!] Akka's Dreams (MG Teaser #1)
Post by: H on January 12, 2017, 06:41:52 pm
Just had a crackpot idea that perhaps Seswatha's soul is somehow "maintained" or some such by the Grasping.  Perhaps his soul is "trapped" by entangling it in a distributed manner with those of the Mandate?  It has always struck me as odd that we know nothing of Seswatha's death, which would make sense is if isn't really dead...
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] [TUC Spoilers!] Akka's Dreams (MG Teaser #1)
Post by: Yellow on January 12, 2017, 06:48:07 pm
Some theories came about when we got the TGO chapter excerpt that the dreams are a method for Seswatha to escape damnation like Shae and his circle of amputees, i think considering that Kellhus allegedly spoke to Seswatha way back in PoN. Maybe those theories are that old.
This has never crossed my mind before. Interesting idea!

PS in response to MSJ - the thing about Akka seeing himself in the mirror rather than Seswatha... I don't think this is particularly important to be honest. I always thought this was just the dreamer seeing through the dream for a moment - we know that the dreamers look like themselves while they are dreaming (eg when Akka intrudes on Nautzera in TTT (or was it TWP?), he sees him as Nautzera, not as Seswatha). They are themselves, they just *think* they are Seswatha.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] [TUC Spoilers!] Akka's Dreams (MG Teaser #1)
Post by: MSJ on January 12, 2017, 10:16:10 pm
Some theories came about when we got the TGO chapter excerpt that the dreams are a method for Seswatha to escape damnation like Shae and his circle of amputees, i think considering that Kellhus allegedly spoke to Seswatha way back in PoN. Maybe those theories are that old.
This has never crossed my mind before. Interesting idea!

PS in response to MSJ - the thing about Akka seeing himself in the mirror rather than Seswatha... I don't think this is particularly important to be honest. I always thought this was just the dreamer seeing through the dream for a moment - we know that the dreamers look like themselves while they are dreaming (eg when Akka intrudes on Nautzera in TTT (or was it TWP?), he sees him as Nautzera, not as Seswatha). They are themselves, they just *think* they are Seswatha.

Yea, I know Its probably insignificant. That was a pet theory I harboured during "The Slog" leading up to TGO. If you re-read the threads, I must say, I come close to convincing all who particpated......😎! :sarcasm:
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] [TUC Spoilers!] Akka's Dreams (MG Teaser #1)
Post by: mrganondorf on March 08, 2017, 03:52:07 am
I dunno if that's a "good" deceit or a "bad" one.

POINT ON THE WATHI DOLL WHERE SESWATHA TOUCHED YOU
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] [TUC Spoilers!] Akka's Dreams (MG Teaser #1)
Post by: profgrape on April 18, 2017, 03:42:53 pm
Someone on r/bakker brought up a good point about the Dream where Akka/Celmomas sees Gilgaol/Kellhus: how could the Gods communicate with Celmomas if they're effectively shut out of the world due to the NG?

Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] [TUC Spoilers!] Akka's Dreams (MG Teaser #1)
Post by: H on April 18, 2017, 03:59:35 pm
Someone on r/bakker brought up a good point about the Dream where Akka/Celmomas sees Gilgaol/Kellhus: how could the Gods communicate with Celmomas if they're effectively shut out of the world due to the NG?

Well, I think "shut out" is a bit of a misnomer.  I mean, even in the text, we are offered the idea that Yatwer can "see" the devastation in the No-God's wake, yet not it's cause.

So, there is something more afoot than simply a door closing.  I think it has more to do with ceasing the cycle of souls than anything like a barrier.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] [TUC Spoilers!] Akka's Dreams (MG Teaser #1)
Post by: Wilshire on April 18, 2017, 04:06:43 pm
Yeah that question made me pause, and I never came up with a decent answer myself.

Really calls into question what we are assuming about the gods and their relationship with the NG

Do we know for sure that the Gods were shut out during the No-God's existence? Certainly the whole all-babies-being-stillborn thing seems to indicate that the souls themselves were not able to go to, or come through, the outside. But perhaps the gods were more involved that we have been thinking?
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] [TUC Spoilers!] Akka's Dreams (MG Teaser #1)
Post by: H on April 18, 2017, 04:36:44 pm
Do we know for sure that the Gods were shut out during the No-God's existence? Certainly the whole all-babies-being-stillborn thing seems to indicate that the souls themselves were not able to go to, or come through, the outside. But perhaps the gods were more involved that we have been thinking?

Well, I think that we have been possibly conflating the No-God's existence and the whole plan itself.

From Kellhus talking to Moe:

Quote
“To shut the World against the Outside,” the pale lips said. “To seal it through the extermination of mankind …”

Also, we learned from Bakker that the No-god has an expiration date.  So, I think the plan is to have the No-God break the cycle of souls while reducing the population, and once the population is suffiently low, then can the world be sealed, probably through some sort of sorcery that Shae cooked up or something.  The No-God itself is simply a tool to get to that point, not a seal itself.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] [TUC Spoilers!] Akka's Dreams (MG Teaser #1)
Post by: Wilshire on April 18, 2017, 04:41:26 pm
The world like a basin full of water, the water are the souls.
NG absorbs the water like a sponge, draining it sufficiently that the Gods cannot dip their cups into it to drink.
Once full, the NG-Sponge is likely sealed properly to prevent the liquid-souls from escaping back out.

Populations probably need to be tightly controlled from then on lest the Gods get access again.

...
Or something like that.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] [TUC Spoilers!] Akka's Dreams (MG Teaser #1)
Post by: profgrape on April 18, 2017, 04:52:20 pm
Good points all around!

If the Gods' access wasn't restricted by the NG, it suggests that they are more than upjumped Ciphrang.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] [TUC Spoilers!] Akka's Dreams (MG Teaser #1)
Post by: Wilshire on April 18, 2017, 05:05:07 pm
Why? I dont follow.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] [TUC Spoilers!] Akka's Dreams (MG Teaser #1)
Post by: MSJ on April 18, 2017, 05:15:20 pm
Why? I dont follow.

I'm with ya.

Isn't it just as simple as the God's are blind to the No-God? Isn't there a reference somewhere about how during the FA they seen all the devastation and thought it was man's doing? I mean, even Yatwer thinks Kellhus is the true enemy. Well, in the long run, he might be....
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] [TUC Spoilers!] Akka's Dreams (MG Teaser #1)
Post by: profgrape on April 18, 2017, 06:35:06 pm
Yeah, I probably took one leap too many with this one, folks.  I was thinking (wrongly) that the No-God closed off the World to the Outside.  But there's no textual justification for that so it's more likely that the No-God is an expedient way of creating the conditions under which the Outside can be shut out.

There's nothing to see here, move along... ;-)
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] [TUC Spoilers!] Akka's Dreams (MG Teaser #1)
Post by: Wilshire on April 18, 2017, 06:40:24 pm
PG I think that's an assumption a lot of people make, including myself. Might not really be the case though.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] [TUC Spoilers!] Akka's Dreams (MG Teaser #1)
Post by: profgrape on April 18, 2017, 07:05:42 pm
PG I think that's an assumption a lot of people make, including myself. Might not really be the case though.

LOL I hadn't thought of it any other way until I read .H.'s post above. 
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] [TUC Spoilers!] Akka's Dreams (MG Teaser #1)
Post by: Redeagl on April 18, 2017, 07:22:53 pm
Yeah, I probably took one leap too many with this one, folks.  I was thinking (wrongly) that the No-God closed off the World to the Outside.  But there's no textual justification for that so it's more likely that the No-God is an expedient way of creating the conditions under which the Outside can be shut out.

There's nothing to see here, move along... ;-)
That was my assumption too before this thread. I told myself not to make any pun is any series disscusion thread but... Can I move ashort?
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] [TUC Spoilers!] Akka's Dreams (MG Teaser #1)
Post by: H on April 18, 2017, 07:36:40 pm
PG I think that's an assumption a lot of people make, including myself. Might not really be the case though.

LOL I hadn't thought of it any other way until I read .H.'s post above. 

Despite more than 10 years ago being pretty sure the No-God was little more than a tool, multiple Bakker posts to the effect, and my persistent thought about it, I never realized the disjunction between that and thinking that the sealing and the No-God were somehow one until I posted that...
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] [TUC Spoilers!] Akka's Dreams (MG Teaser #1)
Post by: Wilshire on April 19, 2017, 12:54:39 pm
What could we accomplished with 20 years in this wilderness
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] [TUC Spoilers!] Akka's Dreams (MG Teaser #1)
Post by: H on April 19, 2017, 02:01:46 pm
What could we accomplished with 20 years in this wilderness

I wonder how many other things are probably somewhat obvious but that we have built on simple misapprehensions and so end up in the wrong place...