Quote from: Cuttlefish on July 16, 2017, 05:55:48 pm

I thought the reasonn Esmenet could bear Kellhus's children was her intellect. Mimara isn't dumb, but I don't know if she has her mother's intellect. And why would Kellhus impregnate Mimara and just let her go?

It'd be somewhat hilarious, though, if Achamian ended up raising Kellhus's son as his own. And the relationship between these people would get rather soap opera-y.

Achmian and Esmenet are in love, but Kellhus ends up stealing Esmenet while Achamian has an affair with Esmenet's daughter Mimara, who is impregnated by Kellhus without him realizing that the child is not his

Also I think that intellect had nothing to do with breading Dûnyains at least not from the mothers prespective. After all don't forget the state of the Whale mothers at Ishaul.  Hardly a picture of intelectual beings been chained for breeding purposes only...

I think the Mothers, the initial ones, were on equal terms with the male Dunyain, but over time, the Dunyain (women being willing too, I imagine) reduced them to their biggest use - to create the next generations, so the Mothers were turned into breeding tanks.

But yes, I think it's pretty clearly stated that Kellhus chose Esmenet for her intellect.

Quote from: H on July 13, 2017, 02:45:42 pm

The DûnSult boyz mention how it took about four and a half years to clear out Ishuäl, which means even if they assaulted it right after TWP, there was no way it was pre-TTT.

The assault has to have finished at some point after the crab-handed boy was born - otherwise he wouldn't have been born at all (the whale mothers would be dead), and the boy realistically has to be born before the Consult get to the Whale Mothers room and kill the Whale Mothers.  I don't think it's ever stated how old the boy is, but we do know he's a boy and not an adolescent (let's say under 12).  If we assume at the latest that he was born halfway through the attack, then at the earliest the attack began approx. 14 years before TUC and ended approx. 10 years before.  If the boy is younger than 12, then the numbers reduce.

The boy was still in the crib when Koringhus spirited him away, by the way, so presumably, the Consult got to the breeding room just after he was born

Quote from: Cuttlefish on July 15, 2017, 04:18:34 pm

Moenghus reminiscies that Harapior told him "you will become my son after this"

Dunno if it's an euphimism of death (nonmen sons mostly died in wombs or battles), a note of kinship building (a 8000 year culture of battling alzheimer with rape and torture), or a sliped out though about surprise butt sex.

Might have something to do about loving and hurting, the way Nonmen do - Harapior thinks he'll remember Moenghus, because he has brutalized him so much

Another possibility is that the new series itself will span a long amount of time, without a time jump between TAE and the new series.

The tale is done.

Nooooooo

Besides the fact that he pretty clearly states that there is gonna be sequels (and I think he is actively writing them too?) I don't think Bakker can let go of Second Apocalypse - I am gonna go out on a limb, and assume that the people who read his non-SA novels are almost entirely made of SA fans, so if his writing endevaours are to continue and prosper (to their relative degree, at least), he'll need more Second Apocalypse to keep his fans together

I think also during TWP is when they learn of that Kellhus is a Dûnyain and there really isn't all that much time between then and TTT.

Initially, they don't even know what a Dunyain is. Cue the highly traumatic epilogue of the second book, where they're trying to find an answer to that very question.

It's curious actually, how they managed to find Ishual. My bet is, they connected the dots and realized Anasurimbor Kellhus must be descended from the old Anasurimbors that opposed them, and that they must've hidden out somewhere; so the rest is about going through old records and chronicles to find out about Ishual. If Achamian could do it, so could they.

I think two things may imply Serwa might've survived;

She seems to think "father" after debris falls on her, and Kayutas carrying "her body". I think it's through Mimara's perspective that we see her body being carried, but Mimara might be mistaken in assuming that she is dead instead of passed out, and well, from a meta standpoint, what could be the reason for mentioning Serwa's body at all? Of course, it could just be an off-handed way to remind us that Kayutas lost his sister, whom he loved, and that Kayutas is still alive, but it might also be implying that it is not the end of Serwa. Like many things, we'll see the definitive answer in the next book.

Edit: Reading back, the section refers to her body being "blasted". Yeah, that convinces me that she is gone for good.

@Cuttlefish:

I don't...uh, share your idea of how *meaning* works.  It's like saying that Moria has no meaning, because the party gets through it.  Why not just have Gandalf wander away?  It all is leading up to a plan that Frodo abandons anyway!

That's a poor example, though. Moria and the loss of Gandalf triggers the beginning of the Fellowship's division, and all said and done, the whole thing escalates into a point where all the storylines converge on the same point, which is, as I recall, the Black Gates and Mordor.

They could've always just used the eagles, though...

Like, WLW is the title character of a book.  He kills Maithanet.  His existence lets the reader get the POV of a destined character, foreshadows Sorweel's transformation, etc.

Neither of those things actually have any consequence for this book's conclusion, though.

Captain doesn't matter, because Galian killed him. Galian doesn't matter, because Mimara killed him.  Mimara doesn't matter because she didn't, I guess, kill Kellhus?

Well, Mimara might have mattered, but that's another thing - she doesn't matter because of her personal journey, the ways in which her character grew and changed. She matters because she has the Judging Eye, something she had from the very beginning (at least I think so? Definitely after she seduced Achamian). Do you think anything about TUC's conclusion would have changed, had Mimara just straight went to Kellhus from after meeting Achamian for the first time, and did what she did at the end of the book? Again, I do hope that her storyline will yield consequences for the next series, but so far, the Judging Eye has been a gimmick (that I am not fond of) and she hasn't been influential at all.

The point I'm trying to make is that the way you use whether or not characters 'dead end/serve any purpose' feels super reductive.  Like, does Proyas 'matter'?  On the one hand, obviously yes.  His loss of faith, struggles, victimization, betrayal, rescue, execution...are given dozens of pages.  On the other, lol nope!  His life's work was delivering an army that was defeated.

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying putting up this whole consequence debate as a means to discredit the storylines, some have been really worth the read for the journey alone (as I said, the Ishterebinth storyline, arguably the least effective one, was my favourite), but when you put it down to its bare... yeah, that's pretty much it. Proyas hasn't influenced the ending, and what little influence the Great Ordeal had was either negligible or understated.

Think of it in Star Wars terms; the last movie - the confrontation Luke has with his father and the Emperor has virtually no consequence for the victory over the Empire. That doesn't make it any less enjoyable, but in my opinion, that is a narrative weakness.