Quote from: Cuttlefish on July 12, 2017, 12:47:18 pm

Well, when you think about it, pretty much every storyline except Kellhus's own have led to a dead end.

Agreed. But TSA would be a trash story if we just followed Kellhus as the main character from TDTCB through TUC. All the other stories have a point, not that I understand them, but I do know they add a lot to the story.  Without them the entire thing might as well be a Glossary with pages of text defining each thing - which isn't a story at all.

Quote from: Cuttlefish on July 12, 2017, 12:47:18 pm

But I expect these storylines, as ineffectual as they were to the finale of TUC, to have impacts for the next series. Mimara's something of a prophet that may influence the world; she and Achamian have discovered what appears to be the last remaining full blooded Dunyain who hasn't gone over to the Consult (that one is, I think, one of the most obvious plot points to be followed), Esmenet storyline has left off Three Seas in a state of civil war, definitely unready for an invasion, while the death of the Great Ordeal wipes out the greatest army men were capable of producing. Sadly, I can't see my favourite storyline, Ishterebinth, having any influence. Maybe the death of the Nonmen will mean something.

That's really the hope, but imo a terrible choice by Bakker. A lot of the interest of TSA hangs on future books and future explanations, and people will get tired of it. I've been saying it for some time now, but I think Bakker will be more popular once everything is released. This waiting years between books isn't doing anything good for his sales, and unfortunately he might never get that chance as once these things are gathering dust on ethereal cloud servers, no one will see them anyway .

I agree; for example, I have no plans to re-read the last book until the next one is out, because I'm not certain if it's worth it (you can say that I was disappointed a bit, with this one). It might read perfectly as a part of a chain, but on its own, it yields no conclusion whatsoever and pretty much wipes out the characters I like. I did come into this series pretty late (The Great Ordeal was being written, by then), so perhaps the older books had the same problem and I never noticed it, as I read them back to back.

Well, when you think about it, pretty much every storyline except Kellhus's own have led to a dead end.

Sorweel, Serwa, the Nonmen and Yatwer? Right, Sorweel and Serwa's character growth did not serve any purpose as both of them (or maybe only one) got killed before truly having an effect on the events. They did make the last Nonmen defect to the Great Ordeal's side, and march to the battle, but well, that didn't really have an impact on the ending, did it?

Esmenet and Kelmomas - this storyline had an obvious impact by Kelmomas's involvement in the Inverse Fire room, but you have to ask if three books' worth of content about Momemn (I really have no idea how to pronounce the name of any place in this universe) politics, Yatwer cult and the Fanim attack were neccessary to that conclusion.

Achamian and Mimara? No effect so far whatsoever, save for Mimara using the Judging Eye on Kellhus/No-God at the end (assuming it did have an effect on what was actually happening, at that point). Again, you have to ask yourself if three books of Skin Eaters, Cleric and Ishual were neccessary for that conclusion.

Cnaiür and his Junior? No effect so far, but this one ended on a cliffhanger.

Proyas and the Great Ordeal? Seeing that the Great Ordeal did not actually contribute to the ending, and instead merely served as meatshields while Kellhus was having a civil conversation with his Dunyain brothers, I'll say this one didn't really have an effect either. Someone around these parts raised the point that, there seemed to be no argument against Kellhus just magically going to Golgotterath and doing what he was supposed to do, without involving the Great Ordeal.

But I expect these storylines, as ineffectual as they were to the finale of TUC, to have impacts for the next series. Mimara's something of a prophet that may influence the world; she and Achamian have discovered what appears to be the last remaining full blooded Dunyain who hasn't gone over to the Consult (that one is, I think, one of the most obvious plot points to be followed), Esmenet storyline has left off Three Seas in a state of civil war, definitely unready for an invasion, while the death of the Great Ordeal wipes out the greatest army men were capable of producing. Sadly, I can't see my favourite storyline, Ishterebinth, having any influence. Maybe the death of the Nonmen will mean something.

Quote from: Cuttlefish on July 12, 2017, 11:03:58 am

Yes, he is descended from Ganrelka's bastard son. Ganrelka himself is, if I recall correctly, an older son of Celmomas, and therefore a brother to Nau-Cayuti (assuming that they share one parent, of course; Celmomas has multiple wives, I think, so they might have a different mother and if Seswatha is indeed the father of Nau-Cayuti, no relation whatsoever)

If he is Celmomas' son, he was born when Celmomas was only 15.  Not that this isn't possible, but I don't recall it being said how many son's Celmomas actually had.

Well, we know for a fact that Celmomas refers to Nau-Cayuti as his youngest son (right?), so he does have older son(s).

Quote from: False Man on July 12, 2017, 06:48:55 am

Quote from: Cüréthañ on July 12, 2017, 02:24:46 am

edit: I feel like you are being a little harsh though. There are millions of papers disputing the meanings and minutae of literature taught in schools and colleges. It's part of the fun, no?

I think there's a difference though: Serious Literature scholars focus on the interpretations of clear texts.
We are more in a Gene Wolfe situation here: trying to understand "what" happened on the page.

Clear texts? I kind of think there is a lot of Serious Literature that deals with ambiguity and jumbled metaphors.

Unless Moby Dick is just a book about a guy who hates a whale then?

Murakami, Joyce, Burroughs, Pynchon, Wallace et al seem pretty open for interpretation to me. Idk?

Yeah, but on Moby Dick, while the text may allude to a metaphor, you understand what event is happening. With Bakker, lately, that's becoming somewhat hard - for the most part, I don't think I'll understand his last book until I read the next one and get a sense of the consequences of what happened, to understand what happened. What comes after explains what comes before, in the Bakkerlit.

edit: at any rate, it appears that Nau-Cayuti was not Seswatha's son after all. In fact, there is a rather long list of things like that that are now obvious red herrings.

One of the teasers was talking about Achamian being misled by his dreams, I think this was it.

The only thing that gives me pause about that theory is Nau-Cayuti.  Though he was a great hero, blah, blah, would that necessitate him being close to the Absolute?  Similarly for Kelmomas.  What makes one near the Absolute?  I lean more toward the twin-souled path, like they somehow cancel each other out and/or make them invisible to the Gods.  But, maybe that is being near the Absolute...  I don't know.  I find myself quickly out of my depth in these kinds of discussions.

IIRC, there is a reference to Celmomas, Nau-Cayuti's papa, being twin souled, but nothing about Nau-Cayuti.

Also, an interesting thing: Kellhus refers to Nau-Cayuti as an ancestor, but he is descended from another son of Celmomas, not Nau-Cayuti. Maybe it's not literal, and he just means relative.

As for the Ark, it could be a creation of the Tekne left behind by the Progenitors. Has anyone read "The Last Question" by Isaac Asimov? You'll get what I'm thinking. (it's a really short story found on the internet, so I'd recommend a read)

Was Nau-Cayuti invisible to the Gods? Celmomas mentions seeing him, at his death, I think riding with Ajokli and the Gods?

Finished. I'll give more thoughts later, but, I really hope there is a 3rd series. Just so many unanswered questions, things left unexplored and plots that was left hanging.

I don't think you've anything to fear, in that regard. I think Bakker has pretty clearly stated that there is going to be a third series of two books, possibly three; in fact, I think in his Reddit AMA, he mentioned that the sequel was even well underway. I might be wrong on that last thing, though. There's definitely going to be more to the series.

So, I'm not sure if I should spoiler tag this or not, but I'll put it on just to be safe. I hope this spoiler tag policy will be lifted soon, especially with threads that already state there'll be spoilers. Anyhow!