Earwa > General Earwa
Stuff To Blow Your Mind: Bonus: R. Scott Bakker, Consciousness & Consult
H:
Having actually read Jaynes' Origins of Consciousness on a whim years ago, it's always neat to hear people (who are smarter than me) discuss it. I am not sure where Bakker mentioned it before, but likening the Gods (and the Darkness) to an unconscious mind, where Eärwa itself is the conscious manifestation of such is very interesting to me. I lack the real deep understanding to fashion something of that really.
It is interesting though, because I've been looking more into Blood Meridian and there are "literary analyses" the point to McCarthy using the idea, "that we don't live in the world, but a linguistic model of the world." I find this interesting in the context of Eärwa's sorcery, being a linguistic remodeling of the world. This also explains something of why the Psûhke leaves no Mark. "Matching the timber of God's voice" is the working of the non-cognitive, i.e. pre-lingusitic, method of thought. In this way, it is indeed "akin" to the God's work.
This also might explain why we tend to find something of "evidence" that Eärwa is a simulation. Eärwa is, in a way. a model of a mind, divided between the Outside and Eärwa itself, the same as a mind would be divided between unconscious (System One) and consciousness (System Two). The No-God's existence as a "System Zero" raises some interesting questions there, but I don't know I have the right words, or the correct understanding to fully fit that into this though.
Madness:
--- Quote from: H on October 03, 2017, 11:25:00 am ---I am not sure where Bakker mentioned it before, but likening the Gods (and the Darkness) to an unconscious mind, where Eärwa itself is the conscious manifestation of such is very interesting to me. I lack the real deep understanding to fashion something of that really.
--- End quote ---
I don't think Bakker ever said it this explicitly before. I do know that Westerosi had divined as much a couple times over the years in previous speculation.
--- Quote from: H on October 03, 2017, 11:25:00 am ---This also might explain why we tend to find something of "evidence" that Eärwa is a simulation. Eärwa is, in a way. a model of a mind, divided between the Outside and Eärwa itself, the same as a mind would be divided between unconscious (System One) and consciousness (System Two). The No-God's existence as a "System Zero" raises some interesting questions there, but I don't know I have the right words, or the correct understanding to fully fit that into this though.
--- End quote ---
I really enjoyed this answer by him and took away much the same as you. I look forward to using a concrete real world analogy to work backwards and parse through narrative events/agencies. I believe he also yielded some other pieces on the Q&A/AMA about the Gods which would be interesting to consolidate with this.
TLEILAXU:
--- Quote from: Madness on October 03, 2017, 06:07:23 pm ---
--- Quote from: H on October 03, 2017, 11:25:00 am ---I am not sure where Bakker mentioned it before, but likening the Gods (and the Darkness) to an unconscious mind, where Eärwa itself is the conscious manifestation of such is very interesting to me. I lack the real deep understanding to fashion something of that really.
--- End quote ---
I don't think Bakker ever said it this explicitly before. I do know that Westerosi had divined as much a couple times over the years in previous speculation.
--- Quote from: H on October 03, 2017, 11:25:00 am ---This also might explain why we tend to find something of "evidence" that Eärwa is a simulation. Eärwa is, in a way. a model of a mind, divided between the Outside and Eärwa itself, the same as a mind would be divided between unconscious (System One) and consciousness (System Two). The No-God's existence as a "System Zero" raises some interesting questions there, but I don't know I have the right words, or the correct understanding to fully fit that into this though.
--- End quote ---
I really enjoyed this answer by him and took away much the same as you. I look forward to using a concrete real world analogy to work backwards and parse through narrative events/agencies. I believe he also yielded some other pieces on the Q&A/AMA about the Gods which would be interesting to consolidate with this.
--- End quote ---
--- Quote ---Bicameralism applies more to the structure of the World and Outside than Kel. I see him as lacking any stable identity, personhood, as opposed to being soulless.
--- End quote ---
from http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=2278.30
profgrape:
After listening to the spoiler section a few times, it's pretty revealing as far as Bakker goes. In describing the relationship between the Gods and the World, Bakker draws from Kahneman's two distinct modes of decision making: System 1 (fast, unconscious, automatic, error-prone) is the Gods; and System 2 (slow, conscious, deliberate, reliable) is the World.
What kind of blew my mind (hey, that's the name of the podcast!) was how these constructs relate to several other metaphysical concepts raised in the series:
System 2 => World, Conscious, Object, Watched
System 1 => Outside, Subconscious, Subject, Watcher
System 0 => No-God, Unconscious, Absolute
In short, the series itself is an allegory of human cognition! Which is pretty cool.
A spoilerific thought stemming from this way of imagining the world:
(click to show/hide)Bakker shared a theory on Meaning in an article that preceded TDTCB by a few years:
http://www.sffworld.com/2000/06/why-fantasy-and-why-now/
Imagine that Meaning is the distance between Subject (irrational) and Object (rational). So Meaning and value increase as a function of the difference between Subject and Object. Ascribing the sun rising to a Sun God is Meaningful; Heliocentrism, on the other hand, is not Meaningful, it just "is".
So when Kellhus describes the No-God as collapsing Subject and Object, it follows that it is also collapsing Meaning! Which was, you may recall, how Bakker described Kellhus' mission, to bring meaninglessness to a meaningful world.
TLEILAXU:
--- Quote from: profgrape on October 03, 2017, 09:25:43 pm ---After listening to the spoiler section a few times, it's pretty revealing as far as Bakker goes. In describing the relationship between the Gods and the World, Bakker draws from Kahneman's two distinct modes of decision making: System 1 (fast, unconscious, automatic, error-prone) is the Gods; and System 2 (slow, conscious, deliberate, reliable) is the World.
What kind of blew my mind (hey, that's the name of the podcast!) was how these constructs relate to several other metaphysical concepts raised in the series:
System 2 => World, Conscious, Object, Watched
System 1 => Outside, Subconscious, Subject, Watcher
System 0 => No-God, Unconscious, Absolute
In short, the series itself is an allegory of human cognition! Which is pretty cool.
A spoilerific thought stemming from this way of imagining the world:
(click to show/hide)Bakker shared a theory on Meaning in an article that preceded TDTCB by a few years:
http://www.sffworld.com/2000/06/why-fantasy-and-why-now/
Imagine that Meaning is the distance between Subject (irrational) and Object (rational). So Meaning and value increase as a function of the difference between Subject and Object. Ascribing the sun rising to a Sun God is Meaningful; Heliocentrism, on the other hand, is not Meaningful, it just "is".
So when Kellhus describes the No-God as collapsing Subject and Object, it follows that it is also collapsing Meaning! Which was, you may recall, how Bakker described Kellhus' mission, to bring meaninglessness to a meaningful world.
--- End quote ---
So that's why sealing the World is necessary, not just because of damnation but because it removes the subject (God) and everything collapses into object...
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