Moenghus the Elder's (Other) Children

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mrganondorf

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« Reply #45 on: February 11, 2014, 11:01:38 pm »
I can resist throwing in my crackpot too: Old Moe has tons of kids walking around dominating circumstance.   ;D  Six kids only?  Lies.  Drowned?  LIES.  Only 2 women can bear little dunyain swimmers?  LIES LIES LIES!!!  Old Moe got that psukhe and then let out the rumor that it requires passion.  Kellhus gets it wrong, believes the cover his dad has worked so hard to erect, it would have to be elaborate to deceive a son of Ishual!  Esmi is not special, Moe's just got Dunyain/Cishaurim working around the clock to magically manipulate her womb so that Kellhus gets just the kids Moe wants him to have and no others.

I can't think of any narrative reasons why Bakker would hide so many Moe-children, I've just fallen into the habit of mistrusting all them character.   :-[

Moe's kids: Meppa, Fanayal, Mimara, Sorweel, Ninjanjin and Sil.

THE TWIST: Moe is not Kellhus' dad.  Kellhus was born of a virgin.

Meyna

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« Reply #46 on: February 12, 2014, 01:39:21 pm »
Moe being "everyone's" father would be an interesting twist, for sure. Kellhus is said to look a lot like Moe, though, so perhaps the virgin is Moe's sister or something ;D
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Wilshire

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« Reply #47 on: February 12, 2014, 01:40:37 pm »
Moe being "everyone's" father would be an interesting twist, for sure. Kellhus is said to look a lot like Moe, though, so perhaps the virgin is Moe's sister or something ;D

Haha I just went through that line of logic in another thread a few days ago. Its really the only explanation I could think of.
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mrganondorf

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« Reply #48 on: May 06, 2014, 02:48:10 pm »
The more I think about it, I can't see any reason why Moe wouldn't have squadrons of children running around.  He has time and power and it would only help whatever his goals.  Why would he make only a few kids?  Could be Yatwer, but I would think a Dunyain would find away around it.  Is he scared his kids could usurp him?  The only ones who would be remotely possible would be the ones with the gift of the few and Maitha does his dad's will.  It would be a great way to protect the Dunyain project: if Ishual is ever destroyed, some of it's latest greatest strains are in the world waiting to go into breeding programs again.

What was removed from Kyudea before Kellhus got there: a whole suite of half-dunyain residences.

Wilshire

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« Reply #49 on: May 06, 2014, 04:07:15 pm »
The Dunyain don't seem to but much merit into plan "B" (no pun intended). Moe thought he'd survive the encounter with his son. So why spend the time and resources rearing children properly? After all, left to their own devices the Dunyain children go mad.

Moenghus had his hands full rasing a sing child in secret while attempting to control the Fanim and rouse the Inrithi into a Crusade. I don't think he had the resources to raise a brood of properly functioning children.

Its kind of a "pick one" secnario. Either dominate the world or raise a brood of world-dominating children. If you pick world domination, you can either have 1 (or maybe 2) successful child(ren), or a brood of autistic savants.

It would seem that raising your own army of super-children would be the way to go, but I think it goes against the grain of Dunyain rationality. Once in the world, domination is everything, and even a full blooded Sayin, errm I mean Dunyain, would lose control given enough time and enough children. The parent would eventually be dominated by the children, and this is unacceptable.
It works OK in Ishual everyone is working towards the goal of dominating TDTCB, rather than eachother. Inevitably the children surpass the parents, but that is the whole point, its how they eventually hope to create a Self Moving soul. But once they are not all bent towards the same goal, they would fight amonst themselves to be the best Dunyain currently alive (Highlander).
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« Reply #50 on: May 08, 2014, 07:04:52 pm »
Moenghus establishes Second Ishual in accordance with missives left long ago by Dunyain Nostradamus ;).
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mrganondorf

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« Reply #51 on: May 08, 2014, 07:48:37 pm »
I can see how it might be either/or, but I'm not sure that it is.  The main thing that Moe would have to worry about would be defectives and patricide and he could deal with both of those by conditioning the oldest children.  As long as the kids are not defective, they should be able to see that daddy Moe has 'the strength' and that their own survival and flourishing would be more likely in keeping peace with him.  No?

Kyudea could have be kind of like a mini-Thousand Thousand Halls!

Wilshire

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« Reply #52 on: May 08, 2014, 08:36:05 pm »
I think Kelmomas speaks heavily against the point of view MG. Dunyain, whole or otherwise, don't seem to play well with others out in the real world. Domination because the only thing that matters, and I don't think anything but constant control could prevent patricide. I think the task just gets exponentially more difficult as the number of children increase. Moe Sr. did fine with 1, Kellhus kept his first 2 sane, but after that it all went to hell.
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mrganondorf

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« Reply #53 on: May 08, 2014, 09:47:54 pm »
Kelmomas is the perfect counter-example, but I wonder if Moe would just drown him.  30 years is a lot of hump time!  Even if you deliberately drown all of them that have the Gift (the main way a patricide could be accomplished).

Cüréthañ

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« Reply #54 on: May 08, 2014, 10:40:26 pm »
Esme is the only person I can think of who wouldn't want to drown Kelmomas.
Retracing his bloody footprints, the Wizard limped on.

The Sharmat

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« Reply #55 on: May 14, 2014, 01:16:24 pm »
Have we considered the possibility that Maithanet was right, and Kellhus really was sparing his defective children for Esmenet's sake?

There is one scene in The Warrior Prophet where Kellhus has thoughts about Esmenet that are dangerously close to actual human affection. Or at least as close as a Dunyain can come to it.

Wilshire

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« Reply #56 on: May 17, 2014, 11:30:13 pm »
I just doubt that he was doing it only for Esmi. There must have been some reason, even a secondary one, to keep the kids alive. Esmi certainly suffers a lot at the hands of her children, I can't imagine having so many was her idea. Actually, I'm pretty sure she even says that she didn't want any more at some point, bringing in concubines, etc.
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Alia

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« Reply #57 on: May 18, 2014, 02:49:37 pm »
It's in Chapter 3 of TJE:
Quote
She had prayed for the passing of her fertility during this time, for what the Nansur called meseremta, the "dry season." But Yatwer's Water continued to flow, and she so dreaded coupling with Kellhus that she actively sought out surrogates for him, women of native intellect like herself.
"This time" is time after the birth of the nameless one and then Inrilitas.
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« Reply #58 on: May 19, 2014, 08:16:48 pm »
Thanks, Alia.
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mrganondorf

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« Reply #59 on: May 27, 2014, 04:20:51 am »
Have we considered the possibility that Maithanet was right, and Kellhus really was sparing his defective children for Esmenet's sake?

There is one scene in The Warrior Prophet where Kellhus has thoughts about Esmenet that are dangerously close to actual human affection. Or at least as close as a Dunyain can come to it.

I feel stupid for not thinking of this possibility.  BUMP