Moenghus the Elder's (Other) Children

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SilentRoamer

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« Reply #60 on: May 27, 2014, 02:02:58 pm »
As you all know I am convinced of Kellhus goodness!

I truly think that Kellhus is in love with Esmi. There are a number of moments in TWP and TTT where we see a real emotional reaction from Kellhus - he even questions himself on the thoughts/feelings he is having and where these feelings are coming from.

This goes along with my view that Kellhus broke on the cross - his mental breakdown and subsequent miracle were just that. A Dunyain who feels could be considered "mad". Like a robot that can love... I think he needed to be sufficiently crazy in order to pull Serwes Heart from his chest and only through becoming "more" could he remove frame of place.

Anyway I know a lot of people think I am crazy but I think this is one of the reasons we are not getting a PoV from Kellhus.

Come on TUC!


Wilshire

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« Reply #61 on: May 27, 2014, 02:23:26 pm »
The subjectivity of "mad" has not been discussed (or at least not recently). Its a valid point that Kellhus could indeed be mad when viewed by Moenghus (or whoever the hell is narrating the "What Has Come Before" sections), but seem perfectly sane/normal to the inhabitants of Earwa, or even the readers themselves. I would not be surprised if Bakker was "telling" the reader what to think, just so that he can point out the subversion later when he turns the whole thing on its head.
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SilentRoamer

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« Reply #62 on: May 28, 2014, 12:50:42 pm »
I think Kellhus has gone "mad" by Dunyain standards. He no longer accepts that what came before is what is controlling him. Almost like he believes he is a "self moving soul".

The guy was showing signs of emotion in TWP pre circumfix, we clearly see an emotional reaction from him which DOES enable him to perform a miracle (assume for the sake of argument the Heart was a miracle.) We then see less and less of Kellhus PoV and what we do see does not indicate driving motives. Kellhus sees his own haloes - he even wonders about them.

This is the contradiction for me - A "sane" Dunyain tries to control tDtCB and believe themselves above "world born" men. Kellhus seems to have accepted tDtCB as part of his driving motivations. It is entirely against Dunyain cognition.

Just some musings.

I would cut off my left nut for some Kellhus PoV in TUC.

mrganondorf

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« Reply #63 on: May 28, 2014, 02:44:52 pm »
Makes me wonder if Kellhus believes hard enough and long enough that he is already a self-moving soul, then his lie will become the breath that is ground.  Is this locke's thing?  Kellhus playing prophet so long he becomes the prophet?

SilentRoamer

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« Reply #64 on: May 28, 2014, 03:35:51 pm »
Hey MG - that is essentially where I am going with this.

Kellhus manipulations have gone so deep he no longer knows they are manipulations - essentially he believes his own bullshit. Thing is in Earwa belief = reality at least in terms of how reality conforms to intent. Kellhus and all his followers intent is growing strong enough to affect the Inward... Interesting how he was the last PoV to see his haloes (iirc)

mrganondorf

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« Reply #65 on: May 28, 2014, 03:39:23 pm »
I like it!  I continually forget that about Eawa, about belief = power or something like that.

Wilshire

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« Reply #66 on: February 03, 2015, 03:46:42 pm »
From Who Are the Dunyain thread, though I didn't want to put my thoughts there
Interesting, though I still think at least initially that the word came from DĂșnedain.
This was my thought as well. Kellhus is a terrible twisted version of Aragorn, in a way.

Solitary God = Absolute.

The Dûnyain have been inadvertently worshiping the Fanim God all along.
Wouldn't it be more correct to say the Fanim have been worshiping the Dunyain conception of the Absolute inadvertently? The Dunyain are older than the Fanim.

And Moenghus, yes.
Cnaiur's mother must have been a truly rare woman. Moenghus fathered a seemingly healthy son by her, though he was long gone by the time it was born, and likely didn't even know she was pregnant. Of course then Cnaiur's mother and the child were killed for being contaminated by Moenghus.

This to me either points to Moenghus being  a strange Dunyain, or Kellhus being broken, genetically speaking.

Why would, presumably, Moenghus be able to sire children with less trouble than Kellhus? Kellhus, with the resources of an empire and revered as a God, was only able to find a single vessel for his children, and they all ended up emotionally broken in some way, most of the physically. Moe was able to sire at least 2 children from 2 different non-dunyain women, one of which was a Scylvendi, who would be the least likely people, imo, to match up with the Dunyain's genetic heritage.

This assumes that something in the way that the Dunyain have been selectively breeding is what causes the problems with the children. We know that they spent 2000 years breeding for intellectual acuity and physical prowess. Maybe worth noting that Bakker has mentioned that whatever they were doing may inadvertently have been selecting for the Few. Maybe the Scylvendi, with the harsh circumstances of their roaming people, have actually selected similarly for genetic traits that made them closer to the Dunyain gene pool than might originally be obvious. Wonder if the Scylvendi are disproportionaly able to see the Onta than the rest of the Three Seas...


Tangent. One interesting thing to note is that not a single half-dunyain has any children. A common effect of inter-breeding two species is that their offspring are often infertile. A bit strange that Kellhus was working so hard to have children and he didn't employ his brother to help. After all, a well-adjusted and completely functional quarter-dunyain would be far more useful than a bunch of drowned children, or Inrilatas. Perhaps the Dunyain did in-fact speciate some time before Moe left for the World. Accelerated breeding and extreme artificial selection could have caused this speciation event to happen many thousands of years faster than might have been expected.... Maybe Kellhus' generation of Dunyain are the first true non-humans.
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The Sharmat

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« Reply #67 on: February 04, 2015, 02:24:15 am »
Kellhus may not have tried as hard as Moenghus. He was taking other women later in life only at Esmenet's urging (which is interesting, given the discussion above. Did Kellhus yield to Esmenet because he could see the dread inside her whenever they coupled?)

And if Cnaiur is anything to go by, his mother was likely exceptionally intelligent. Which seems to be an outward marker for Dunyain genetic compatibility.

As for Kellhus' and Moenghus' children being mules...I hadn't considered that, but it's certainly possible. That said, Maithanet was just a tool of his father and may have seen no need to procreate, and Kayutas is, what, 20? It could just be they haven't gotten around to trying yet.

Wilshire

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« Reply #68 on: February 04, 2015, 04:34:26 am »
Like I said, Maitha for sure should have some children floating around.

Also, 20 seems plenty old, even 15 should have been old enough. What is the average lifespan? I know 100+ isn't unheard of, but that seems far to old given the times. I'm not a big history guy, but 20 seems lateish to start a family in the middle ages?
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The Sharmat

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« Reply #69 on: February 04, 2015, 04:41:02 am »
The Three-Seas aren't really similar to medieval Europe at all culturally or technologically though. And these are Dunyain. They don't have offspring except in pursuit of a purpose. Kayutas and Maithanet have never gone wenching for its own sake, if at all.

Although strictly speaking...do we know Maithanet never had children? Maybe he simply didn't tell anyone.

But yeah, wouldn't be at all surprised to find out half-Dunyain are just mules.

Wilshire

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« Reply #70 on: February 05, 2015, 02:32:00 am »
imo it looks like Kellhus was breeding for a purpose, and it seems like it was to have competent pawns for his Ordeal. Given that, it seems like he should have been milking Maitha for his golden, or at least silver, seed.

It would have been tough for Maitha to have children that Kellhus didn't know about, and since we didnt have any hints about them, I doubt he has any running around.
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The Sharmat

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« Reply #71 on: February 05, 2015, 08:52:52 am »
I don't think the Shriah is allowed to reproduce. Kellhus could rewrite that scripture too, but...another Dunyain lineage is as much threat as it is tool.

Wilshire

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« Reply #72 on: February 05, 2015, 03:20:49 pm »
Yeah, I think I, or someone else, discussed that up thread somewhere. Being a Dunyain (or maybe just half-dunyain) seems to necessitate the need for involved child rearing else they go crazy.

I dont understand, then, why he had more than 2 or 3. If he was looking for some specific trait, or balance of traits, it would seem prudent to have as many as possible. Even if he was just farming for potential schoolmen, more would be better... Otherwise, why not just take the first 2 children and be done with it. I guarantee that Kellhus could have taken anything that came out out of Esminet and molded it into a useful tool. Why waste the efforts making more that you couldn't control?

There just doesn't seem to be a logical reason to have a bunch of disabled children.
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The Sharmat

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« Reply #73 on: February 06, 2015, 04:30:14 am »
Children die. Even half-Dunyain. If something were to happen to Kayutas in early childhood, he could switch to a spare.

Wilshire

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« Reply #74 on: February 06, 2015, 02:04:37 pm »
Do you happen to know the age gap between each, more or less? If he was making spares, they should all be 18-24 months apart, otherwise the age gap would be too large for them to be useful for whatever his plans are, or he would have had to delay the march of the Ordeal.

Maybe Kayutas and Serwa are that close, and maybe even Inrilatas, but after that it seem that Thelopia, Kelmomas, and Samaras are much younger.

They seem to be tokens to please Esmenet more than anything else... Then again maybe not. They might all have been crafted for a purpose once their particular brand of crazy was studied by Kellhus.
Inrilatas im not sure about, but he served a purpose in the end. Thel was a good counselor for Esmi, and Kelmomas has something special going on, probably something in part due to Kellhus' influence as well as other outside influences.
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