Moenghus the Elder's (Other) Children

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The Sharmat

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« Reply #75 on: February 06, 2015, 05:30:55 pm »
I think the gaps are larger between some than others, because some of them had nameless, deformed siblings between them. And remember, Esmenet's pregnancies last significantly longer than traditional ones. Probably takes her awhile to recover from them and be ready to gestate again.

I don't think Kel is a product of Kellhus at all. Kelmomas seems scarcely to have even met him.

Wilshire

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« Reply #76 on: February 06, 2015, 09:09:17 pm »
Yeah, you're right. Still births and longer birth/recovery cycles.

Per Kelmomas
His first scene is him either just before or just after his 'whelming'. Kellhus could have severely rewired his brain, or not, considering what he did to Serwe during her whelming experience.
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The Sharmat

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« Reply #77 on: February 06, 2015, 11:07:38 pm »
He could have. But the Whelming of his children largely seems to be nifty ritual. In theory, Kellhus could have severely rewired the brains of anyone he's spent 2 minutes alone with and we'd never know. So I don't think it's that worth speculating in most cases.

Wilshire

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« Reply #78 on: February 07, 2015, 03:46:07 am »
I would agree, but it is specifically mentioned at the start, so I feel like its something... but it is a black box so yeah not a great speculation train.
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themerchant

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« Reply #79 on: March 11, 2015, 11:01:34 pm »
Yeah maitha before he snuffs it is saying to Esmi, tell my brot..herS

She has no way to tell Kellhus something, as Maitha knows. So it rules out Kellhus as the "brother".

Wilshire

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« Reply #80 on: March 12, 2015, 03:36:37 am »
Thanks for feeding my crazy theory :D
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Francis Buck

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« Reply #81 on: March 12, 2015, 03:41:39 am »
I think Kellhus basically rewired the brain of Kel/Sam by intentionally ignoring him. I just don't think Kellhus would do something so stupid as to leave one of his own functional (I use that word lightly) children be completely unbridled unless he actually wanted them to be. You could chalk up Kelmomas just being the one thing that Kellhus happened to neglect in the grand scheme of the Great Ordeal (whatever it is), but it feels way too obvious. Of all things, there's no way he did not account for bringing other Dunyain (particularly half-dunyain, which seem more volatile/unpredictable) into existence. I think every single one of his children was a calculated maneuver. It doesn't fit with the character otherwise.

themerchant

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« Reply #82 on: March 12, 2015, 07:39:06 pm »
I believe in TWP in the scene where Kellhus "whelms" Serwe to find out what the kell-skinspy had asked her, the whelming is described as the place where voice overwrites voice, or words to that affect. sorry i dont have the book handy to check. "He slowly scraped the event from the parchment of her soul" or something like that.  I believe Kellhus also called a different ceremony the whelming or the like, where splash oil on the face it goes on fire and a priest with a wet cloth puts it out. Which is much more ceremonial.

It also seems very familiar with the state Inri was trying to invoke in little Kel before(we think but maybe actually after, not before) he was "saved" by the cleaning dude pulling him back, they are even induced in the same way, by matching heartbeat and breaths. The voice warns Kel, "he breaths as you do..."


The Sharmat

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« Reply #83 on: March 12, 2015, 10:17:15 pm »
Kellhus does stupid things for sentimental reasons.

Everyone forgets this for some reason. Cnaiur was only alive in the Thousandfold Thought for sentiment. Kellhus thinks to himself multiple times "I should have killed him."

mrganondorf

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« Reply #84 on: March 16, 2015, 12:10:59 am »
Kellhus does stupid things for sentimental reasons.

Everyone forgets this for some reason. Cnaiur was only alive in the Thousandfold Thought for sentiment. Kellhus thinks to himself multiple times "I should have killed him."

proof of the puppet strings!

The Sharmat

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« Reply #85 on: March 16, 2015, 02:57:01 am »
It also seems very familiar with the state Inri was trying to invoke in little Kel before(we think but maybe actually after, not before) he was "saved" by the cleaning dude pulling him back, they are even induced in the same way, by matching heartbeat and breaths. The voice warns Kel, "he breaths as you do..."
Interesting that you apparently can't hypnotize them both at the same time. Samarmas was totally aware of what was happening and trying to snap Kelmomas out of it.

Samarmas also tries to interrupt what was going to happen between Inrilatas and Maithanet. He didn't like that they had no idea what was going on.

I think Samarmas is smarter than Kelmomas.

Simas Polchias

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« Reply #86 on: March 16, 2015, 06:50:13 pm »
Kellhus is somehow defective in a way that makes his children retarded/crazy?
I still never really understood why Esmi was the one that could sire his children, and how Moe could have found someone to bare him a nearly perfect child. Doesn't make much sense to me.
For the first question (and partly the second), there is a chance of genetic abyss existing between Kellhus and his parents/other duniyain/other ppl. Like, an Ishual breeding program finally unfolded, creating someone barely-human. If that's true, Moengus is not so "alien" to humans as his son is and their breeding problems should differ.
For the second question, consience & intellect play a great deal in bakkerverse to a level of determining existence of soul or prerequisite to mess with onta. More specifically, monks at Ishual honed such traits throught eugenic means. So, Esmi's high intelligence can be an indirect indication of her genetic fit to carry some duniyain children alive. That's a sign of common genetic ground (nurtured in Kellhus, natured in Esmi).

Wic

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« Reply #87 on: March 17, 2015, 03:34:28 pm »

I think Samarmas is smarter than Kelmomas.
I feel like someone's brought this up already, but maybe he's very close to being a self-moving soul, untethered to his own darkness and able to sift through Kel's.

Wilshire

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« Reply #88 on: March 17, 2015, 05:52:35 pm »
Is speciation kind of like an event horizon, by which I mean that there is this hard generational line where suddenly all subsequent generations are a different species? If so, what Simas said could be possible.
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The Sharmat

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« Reply #89 on: March 18, 2015, 10:46:20 am »
Is speciation kind of like an event horizon, by which I mean that there is this hard generational line where suddenly all subsequent generations are a different species? If so, what Simas said could be possible.
No. Species don't even really exist. They're just a useful generalization. Confusing hybridizations happen a lot, and genetic incompatability can be profound yet still not a hard and fast rule.