The Second Apocalypse

Earwa => The Aspect-Emperor => The Almanac: TAE Edition => Topic started by: H on April 13, 2016, 12:18:58 pm

Title: The Slog WLW - Chapter 8 [Spoilers]
Post by: H on April 13, 2016, 12:18:58 pm
Chapter 8:

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The notch that would shatter his sword, so allowing the broken blade to plunge into the Aspect-Emperor's heart. He could even feel the blood slick his thumb and fingers, as he followed himself into the gloomy peril of the alley.

So, is the White Luck mistaken?  Does the vision he have lie?  No, I think it is right.  But I think there is far more to it.  That once he can be killed, it simply won't matter.

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And so he stepped into his stepping, walked into his walking, travelled into his journey, a quest that had already ended in the death of the False Prophet.

This part is why I don't believe it hinges on a play on words.  The False Prophet is Kellhus, not just someone with the title Aspect-Emperor.

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Thus had her husband, in the course of arming her against their mad son, also warned her against himself. As well as confirmed what Achamian had said so very long ago.

So, she finally gets it?  But she still trusts Kellhus, it seems.

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"What if redemption were simply another form of damnation? What if the only true salvation lay in seeing through the trick and embracing oblivion?

Like a Nonman?  Is this what they knew?

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"You lean heavily on Father's advice..." he said, his voice reaching for intonations that almost matched Kellhus's. "But you should know that I am your husband as he really is. Even Uncle, when he speaks, parses and pitches his words to mimic the way others sound—to conceal the inhumanity I so love to flaunt. We Dûnyain... we are not human, Mother. And you... You are children to us. Ridiculous and adorable. And so insufferably stupid."

Indeed, again, it revolves around Dûnyain not being truly human.  That "accursed blood" and so on.  I still see it all going back to that Nonman heritage...

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"Kel..." he said with a bestial grunt, "and Sammi..."
The Holy Empress stiffened. If Inrilatas had been seeking a fatal chink, he had discovered it. "I don't understand," she replied, swallowing. "Sammi is... Sammi, he..."

Does he goad her?  Or is he being honest, that Sammi really is the voice?

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Fanayal ab Kascamandri raised his hand as if trying to snatch words she had tossed aside. "So this White-Luck Warrior of yours," he snapped, "he hunts the Aspect-Emperor?"
"The Goddess hunts the Demon."
Fanayal turned to his Cishaurim and grinned. "Tell me, Meppa. Do you like her?"
"Like her?" the blind man responded, obviously too accustomed to his jokes to be incredulous. "No."
"Well I do," the Padirajah said. "Even her curses please me."

At first I thought that Fanayal was just kind of dumb and open to manipulation.  But I think there is more to it.  Perhaps he thinks he can actually ally himself with Yatwer to kill Kellhus?  Perhaps he is actually not wrong...

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Apparently activity along the Scylvendi frontier, which had surged in previous weeks, had now dwindled to nothing, a fact that at once heartened her, because of the redeployment it allowed, and troubled her.

Something is up with this, but I don't know what.  Perhaps a Scylvendi attack is the real death-blow to the Empire?

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The crisis she faced was a crisis in confidence, nothing more, nothing less. The less her subjects believed in the Empire, the less some would sacrifice, the more others would resist. It was almost arithmetic. The balance was wobbling, and all the world watched to see which way the sand would spill. Anasûrimbor Esmenet had made a resolution to act as if she believed to spite all those who doubted her as much as anything else, and paradoxically, they had all started believing with her. It was a lesson Kellhus had drummed into her countless times and one she resolved never to forget again.
To know is to have power over the world; to believe is to have power over men.

Ah, yes, confidence, speaking to certainty, Kellhus bread-and-butter.

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The tone and pose of an innocent bewildered and bullied by another's irrationality. "If his actions conform to your expectations," Kellhus had told her, "then he deceives you. The more unthinkable dissembling seems, Esmi, the more he dissembles..."

Did Kellhus figure to pit Esmenet versus Maitha?  Why?

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"I serve my Lord Padirajah."
The Mother-Supreme laughed. This, she realized, was her new temple, a heathen army, flying through lands where even goatherds were loathe to go. And these heathen were her new priests—these Fanim. What did it matter what they believed, so long as they accomplished what needed to be done?
"But you lie," she croaked in her old voice.
"He has been anoin—"
"He has been anointed!" she cackled. "But not by whom you think!"

So, Yatwer does have plans for Fanayal, it was no accident that Psatma was taken.

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"I fear my brother does not fully trust me."
"Because he knows, doesn't he? He knows the secret of our blood."
"Perhaps."
"He knows you, knows you better than you know yourself."
"Perhaps."

Again, about the blood.

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"The sum of sins," Inrilatas continued. "There is nothing more godly than murder. Nothing more absolute."

So, did Inrilatas actually plan to kill Maitha?  Or was it a ploy to have himself killed?

There is plausibility either way.  He seems to have told him about Kel to distract him, but it could be that this wasn't the only reason.  Then again, it seems like he is being completely honest in telling him about Kel:

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"A thousand words and insinuations batter them day in and day out," the youth said. "But because they lack the memory to enumerate them, they forget, and find themselves stranded with hopes and suspicions not of their making. Mother has always loved you, Uncle, has always seen you as a more human version of Father—an illusion you have laboured long and hard to cultivate. Now, suddenly, when she most desperately needs your counsel, she fears and hates you."
"And this is Kelmomas's work?"
"He isn't what he seems, Uncle."

So, he acknowledges that this is all Kel's work.  So, why try to kill him?  I think Inrilatas knows full well Maitha's strength and so he elects to have him kill him, rather than Kel.  However, this plays right into what Kel wants, so why unmask him only to aid his plan?  Should we be asking cui bono?  Perhaps.  But benefit here is tricky to figure...

This conversation is very much akin to Kellhus and Moe's TTT conversation.  Very little is as what it seems.  I need more time to ruminate on it really...
Title: Re: The Slog WLW - Chapter 8 [Spoilers]
Post by: Blackstone on April 13, 2016, 03:25:23 pm
Chapter 8:

Quote
The notch that would shatter his sword, so allowing the broken blade to plunge into the Aspect-Emperor's heart. He could even feel the blood slick his thumb and fingers, as he followed himself into the gloomy peril of the alley.

So, is the White Luck mistaken?  Does the vision he have lie?  No, I think it is right.  But I think there is far more to it.  That once he can be killed, it simply won't matter.

Quote
And so he stepped into his stepping, walked into his walking, travelled into his journey, a quest that had already ended in the death of the False Prophet.

This part is why I don't believe it hinges on a play on words.  The False Prophet is Kellhus, not just someone with the title Aspect-Emperor.

I totally agree. I think we talked about this in another thread. I think the WLW succeeds in killing Kellhus. But, as you say, the question is whether it matters by the time he gets around to doing it. (But note: my favorite crackpot theory right now is that Kellhus is sucked back in time and imprisoned in the Carapace to walk the world as the No-god, and that the final series is entitled "The First Apocalypse.")

Chapter 8:

Quote
"You lean heavily on Father's advice..." he said, his voice reaching for intonations that almost matched Kellhus's. "But you should know that I am your husband as he really is. Even Uncle, when he speaks, parses and pitches his words to mimic the way others sound—to conceal the inhumanity I so love to flaunt. We Dûnyain... we are not human, Mother. And you... You are children to us. Ridiculous and adorable. And so insufferably stupid."

Indeed, again, it revolves around Dûnyain not being truly human.  That "accursed blood" and so on.  I still see it all going back to that Nonman heritage...


I have a bit of a problem with this. I just finished a re-read of TDTCB, and Kellhus clearly has feelings and passions as a child. In fact, a lot of the training he undertakes as a young Dunyain is to overcome his passions. As late as the climax of TDTCB, when Kellhus is thinking about that meditation exercise (the logos is without...), he is having feelings. So the "blood" really only has to do with their physical and mental advantages, not emotional "advantages."
So why are some of his children born without the ability to feel human emotion? Authorial inconsistency?
Title: Re: The Slog WLW - Chapter 8 [Spoilers]
Post by: H on April 13, 2016, 05:16:41 pm
I totally agree. I think we talked about this in another thread. I think the WLW succeeds in killing Kellhus. But, as you say, the question is whether it matters by the time he gets around to doing it. (But note: my favorite crackpot theory right now is that Kellhus is sucked back in time and imprisoned in the Carapace to walk the world as the No-god, and that the final series is entitled "The First Apocalypse.")

While that is interesting, I hope not.  Time travel just seems kind of silly to me.

I have a bit of a problem with this. I just finished a re-read of TDTCB, and Kellhus clearly has feelings and passions as a child. In fact, a lot of the training he undertakes as a young Dunyain is to overcome his passions. As late as the climax of TDTCB, when Kellhus is thinking about that meditation exercise (the logos is without...), he is having feelings. So the "blood" really only has to do with their physical and mental advantages, not emotional "advantages."
So why are some of his children born without the ability to feel human emotion? Authorial inconsistency?

I think it has to do with the inherent instability of the hybrids that the Dunyain are inevitably breeding.  Indeed, the fact that most women they try to reproduce with tend to end up with nonviable mixes, producing freakish or at best completely imbalanced children seems to imply some genetic incompatibility.  The results are probably pretty typical, really.

If we can believe what Maitha tells us about Moe's children, his rate of success was 1/6.  Kellhus' actually seems only slightly higher, at 2/6 (Kayûtas, and Serwa) but I think that might speak more to something special about Esmenet than Kellhus.  Still, I think that ultimately, what the Dunyain think they are doing isn't really what they are doing.  I think there is more metaphysical things going on then just the training that they go through, just the training tends to sharpen it.
Title: Re: The Slog WLW - Chapter 8 [Spoilers]
Post by: themerchant on April 13, 2016, 07:21:20 pm

I'm not sure we can believe Uncle Holy, the text notes these tiny pauses in his answers, which may or may not mean anything.

I can't work it out :)
Title: Re: The Slog WLW - Chapter 8 [Spoilers]
Post by: H on April 13, 2016, 07:23:45 pm
The fix is in...only Madness and Wilshire will ever know how dumb I am,  ;)
Title: Re: The Slog WLW - Chapter 8 [Spoilers]
Post by: themerchant on April 13, 2016, 07:24:58 pm
Moe the younger is Cnaiur's Son.

Indeed, I am in idiot.  Early morning posting takes it's toll...I'm going to edit...
I've edited as well let's purge it :D

Title: Re: The Slog WLW - Chapter 8 [Spoilers]
Post by: H on April 13, 2016, 07:28:58 pm

I'm not sure we can believe Uncle Holy, the text notes these tiny pauses in his answers, which may or may not mean anything.

I can't work it out :)

I think that his pauses are actually him trying to figure out that Inrilatas is really after with all this, rather than him concealing anything.  The scene strikes me as him actually being quite forthcoming to try to divine what the hell this this all about...but again, that could just be window-dressing.

Still, Maitha seems to me to really just be forthright here and there is little to point us to him having lied.
Title: Re: The Slog WLW - Chapter 8 [Spoilers]
Post by: MSJ on April 13, 2016, 07:48:03 pm
I've never once thought that Maithenet was lying about anything. I simply have always believed it to be Esme's paranoia and Kel's manipulations. If only Thelli had read his face......
Title: Re: The Slog WLW - Chapter 8 [Spoilers]
Post by: Blackstone on April 13, 2016, 07:50:58 pm

I'm not sure we can believe Uncle Holy, the text notes these tiny pauses in his answers, which may or may not mean anything.

I can't work it out :)

I think that his pauses are actually him trying to figure out that Inrilatas is really after with all this, rather than him concealing anything.  The scene strikes me as him actually being quite forthcoming to try to divine what the hell this this all about...but again, that could just be window-dressing.

Still, Maitha seems to me to really just be forthright here and there is little to point us to him having lied.

Agreed!

Also, I don't think Kellhus's odds are that good. There are all the nameless ones to consider.
I totally agree. I think we talked about this in another thread. I think the WLW succeeds in killing Kellhus. But, as you say, the question is whether it matters by the time he gets around to doing it. (But note: my favorite crackpot theory right now is that Kellhus is sucked back in time and imprisoned in the Carapace to walk the world as the No-god, and that the final series is entitled "The First Apocalypse.")

While that is interesting, I hope not.  Time travel just seems kind of silly to me.



Glad we can draw a line somewhere ;)

I have a bit of a problem with this. I just finished a re-read of TDTCB, and Kellhus clearly has feelings and passions as a child. In fact, a lot of the training he undertakes as a young Dunyain is to overcome his passions. As late as the climax of TDTCB, when Kellhus is thinking about that meditation exercise (the logos is without...), he is having feelings. So the "blood" really only has to do with their physical and mental advantages, not emotional "advantages."
So why are some of his children born without the ability to feel human emotion? Authorial inconsistency?

I think it has to do with the inherent instability of the hybrids that the Dunyain are inevitably breeding.  Indeed, the fact that most women they try to reproduce with tend to end up with nonviable mixes, producing freakish or at best completely imbalanced children seems to imply some genetic incompatibility.  The results are probably pretty typical, really.

If we can believe what Maitha tells us about Moe's children, his rate of success was 1/6.  Kellhus' actually seems only slightly higher, at 2/6 (Kayûtas, and Serwa) but I think that might speak more to something special about Esmenet than Kellhus.  Still, I think that ultimately, what the Dunyain think they are doing isn't really what they are doing.  I think there is more metaphysical things going on then just the training that they go through, just the training tends to sharpen it.

While you have a point, I'm not sure that does it for me in the category of credibility :-\ I can see the physical defects but the emotional defects seem odd. Why are the hybrids more "Dunyain" at birth than the originals?
Title: Re: The Slog WLW - Chapter 8 [Spoilers]
Post by: H on April 13, 2016, 08:00:40 pm
I've never once thought that Maithenet was lying about anything. I simply have always believed it to be Esme's paranoia and Kel's manipulations. If only Thelli had read his face......

I would think she has though, at least at some point, even inadvertently.  Thing is Kel has manipulated Esmenet to the point of such distrust that she won't believe anything unless it confirms what she is imagining is going on.  Since Inrilatas is the "best face reader" she believes he can see what Theli can't.  Thing is, Theli didn't see anything because there is nothing to see...

Also, I don't think Kellhus's odds are that good. There are all the nameless ones to consider.

Yeah, that's why I say I think it is something special about Esmenet, rather than Kellhus that gives rise to even potentially viable children.

Glad we can draw a line somewhere ;)

I can take a lot for granted, but time travel just isn't one,   8)

While you have a point, I'm not sure that does it for me in the category of credibility :-\ I can see the physical defects but the emotional defects seem odd. Why are the hybrids more "Dunyain" at birth than the originals?

Yeah, I don't know really.  Perhaps because of some kind of interplay between the differences in Nonman emotion and human?  It's unclear really.  Theli shows signs of being something near autistic though, which makes it really uncertain just what, exactly, is wrong with her.  We just know she isn't right...

Perhaps too much Nonman in the mix?  Perhaps too little human?  It could be nearly anything, but I feel it's got something to do with the whole Anasûrimbor blood thing.
Title: Re: The Slog WLW - Chapter 8 [Spoilers]
Post by: themerchant on April 13, 2016, 08:05:07 pm
An honest Dunyain? ;)

When Moe and Kell speak, Moe does continually re-evaluate "scrutiny... calculation..." So it is very probable that is exactly what Uncle Holy was doing as taught. So you might very well be right.
Title: Re: The Slog WLW - Chapter 8 [Spoilers]
Post by: H on April 14, 2016, 11:59:56 am
An honest Dunyain? ;)

When Moe and Kell speak, Moe does continually re-evaluate "scrutiny... calculation..." So it is very probable that is exactly what Uncle Holy was doing as taught. So you might very well be right.

Well, I don't know that I want to call him honest, per se, but in this case, since I really don't think he had any ulterior motive and is sitting in front of someone very adept at reading faces and tones, it's not in his interest to try to deceive Inrilatas.  Not to mention he literally has to reason to.
Title: Re: The Slog WLW - Chapter 8 [Spoilers]
Post by: MSJ on April 17, 2016, 11:35:02 am
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Call her what you will!” Psatma Nannaferi exclaimed. “Demon? Yes! I worship a demon!—if it pleases you to call her such! You think we worship the Hundred because they are good? Madness governs the Outside, Snakehead, not gods or demons— or even the God! Fool! We worship them because they have power over us. And we— we Yatwerians— worship the one with the most power of all."

Confirms how Akka explains that madness is the Outside leaking into Earwa. And, I'd also venture that it confirms that the more worshippers a God has the more power they have in turn.

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Psatma Nannaferi resumed her appraisal of her miraculous twin in the mirror. “You bear the Water within you,” she said to the Last Cishaurim. She drew a palm across the plane of her abdomen. “Like an ocean! You can strike me down with your merest whim! And yet you stand here bandying threats and insults."

An ocean of Water.......Where did it come from? Huh, you know my answer.

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We walk the Shortest Path,” her divine and heartless husband had told her the last time she had seen him, “the Labyrinth of the Thousandfold Thought. This is the burden the God has laid upon us, and the burden the Gods begrudge."

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Inrilatas seized the opportunity . “You think Mother has blunted Father’s pursuit of the Shortest Path time and again, that he walks in arcs to appease her heart, when he should cleave to the ruthless lines of the Thousandfold Thought."

Two quotes that seem to suggest the Kellhus is still following the Thousandfold Thought.

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You really believe that we Dûnyain differ? That, like fathers, some can be good and some bad?”“I know so,” Maithanet replied.

And here is the crux of Kellhus's intentions. Its as I said, I believe his feelings he acquired throughout PoN for Esme, Serwe and humanity in general; is why he still walks the labyrinth of the Thousandfold Thought. There can be good Dûnyain's.
Title: Re: The Slog WLW - Chapter 8 [Spoilers]
Post by: Blackstone on April 18, 2016, 03:06:23 pm


Two quotes that seem to suggest the Kellhus is still following the Thousandfold Thought.

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You really believe that we Dûnyain differ? That, like fathers, some can be good and some bad?”“I know so,” Maithanet replied.

And here is the crux of Kellhus's intentions. Its as I said, I believe his feelings he acquired throughout PoN for Esme, Serwe and humanity in general; is why he still walks the labyrinth of the Thousandfold Thought. There can be good Dûnyain's.

Totally agree. I think his feelings are genuine.
Title: Re: The Slog WLW - Chapter 8 [Spoilers]
Post by: Bolivar on April 25, 2016, 11:59:03 pm
I'm only skeptical of Kellhus, after the Bakker quote about his test readers not seeing through his manipulation. And we see in Esmenet's reflections in TJE just how little Kellhus bothered to appease her heart. Still, there may be something  to this.

The Dunyain trade in truth. I believe it was H on a podcast who remarked how his wife found it strange Kellhus is supposed to be a deceiver on a secret mission but he tells everyone who he is and what he's after. It wasn't just a good observation on how he operates, I also thought it added an interesting perspective on why they call themselves the Dunyain and the significance of the salutation 'Truth Shines.'

Inrilatas and Maithanet spend too much time on it for it not to have some significance. Kellhus indicates later to Proyas that he does not love Esmenet but I don't know. I have a feeling this will be revisited in TGO, if Kellhus really did intend Esmenet to succeed the whole time.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

Title: Re: The Slog WLW - Chapter 8 [Spoilers]
Post by: H on April 26, 2016, 10:48:15 am
I'm only skeptical of Kellhus, after the Bakker quote about his test readers not seeing through his manipulation. And we see in Esmenet's reflections in TJE just how little Kellhus bothered to appease her heart. Still, there may be something  to this.

The Dunyain trade in truth. I believe it was H on a podcast who remarked how his wife found it strange Kellhus is supposed to be a deceiver on a secret mission but he tells everyone who he is and what he's after. It wasn't just a good observation on how he operates, I also thought it added an interesting perspective on why they call themselves the Dunyain and the significance of the salutation 'Truth Shines.'

Inrilatas and Maithanet spend too much time on it for it not to have some significance. Kellhus indicates later to Proyas that he does not love Esmenet but I don't know. I have a feeling this will be revisited in TGO, if Kellhus really did intend Esmenet to succeed the whole time.

Yeah, while I do believe that Kellhus does (and did) have actual human feelings for Esmenet, those vestigal passions we hear of in TTT conversation, I do not believe that those are what is the prime mover for Kellhus, nor do I think those are what move him now.  They were more like speed-bumps than anything else really.

I don't see anywhere in WLW where Kellhus belies that he loves Esmenet, even if he really still does.  Keep in mind, the Interdiction is taken on by Kellhus, yet he is not cut off at all.  So, the Interdiction isn't about him depriving himself of what is going on, but rather to deprive everyone in Mommen of him, most especially Esmenet.  The added benefit of depriving those in the Great Ordeal of the news of what goes on now in the Three Seas.  So, in this way, Kellhus tells the truth, but like most truths, it is only the merest part of what is really going on.

Indeed though, that was my wife who pointed that out.  She has a pretty good point too, how none of what we are really told by Kellhus at first really makes much sense, from the dreams sent, to the Pragma sending him and walking themselves down to the TTH, to the sudden change of him now being an assassin.

Consider this, if it is Darkness that comes before and Truth shines, then the Truth is what replaces the Darkness.  I think the crux of it though, like Wutteat loves to say, "is not truth infinite?"  There isn't really a Truth (capital T), there are truths and there is little difference between a natural truth and a lie made true.
Title: Re: The Slog WLW - Chapter 8 [Spoilers]
Post by: Blackstone on April 26, 2016, 02:38:57 pm


Indeed though, that was my wife who pointed that out.  She has a pretty good point too, how none of what we are really told by Kellhus at first really makes much sense, from the dreams sent, to the Pragma sending him and walking themselves down to the TTH, to the sudden change of him now being an assassin.



I don't think there is a sudden change in his mission. The first time he talks to anyone about it is with Cnauir, and he tells Cnauir that he has been sent as an assassin.
Title: Re: The Slog WLW - Chapter 8 [Spoilers]
Post by: H on April 26, 2016, 03:19:03 pm
I don't think there is a sudden change in his mission. The first time he talks to anyone about it is with Cnauir, and he tells Cnauir that he has been sent as an assassin.

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Shimeh will be my home. I shall dwell in my father’s house.

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“I search for my father, Moënghus,” Kellhus said. “Anasûrimbor Moënghus.”

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“I still live because my father passed through your lands in your youth and committed some crime for which you seek redress. I don’t think it possible for you to kill me, though this is your desire. You’re too intelligent to find satisfaction in substitutes. You understand the danger I represent, and yet you still hope to use me as the instrument of your greater desire. My circumstances, then, are of a piece with your purpose.”

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“Now,” Cnaiür said, “your purpose . . . And don’t think I’m deluded into believing I’ve broken you. Your kind is not to be broken.”
There was a rustle in the blackness. “You’re right.” The voice was warm in the dark. “For my kind there’s only mission. I’ve come for my father, Anasûrimbor Moënghus. I’ve come to kill him.”
Silence, save for a gentle southern wind.
The outlander continued: “Now the dilemma is wholly yours, Scylvendi. Our missions would seem to be the same. I know where and, more important, how to find Anasûrimbor Moënghus. I offer you the very cup you desire. Is it poison or no?”
Dare he use the son?
“It’s always poison,” Cnaiür grated, “when you thirst.”

Now, of course it is plausible that he is being vague to Leweth and is misleading himself initially about "living in his father's house" but by the same measure he basically realizes that he must play Cnaiür and so presents his mission as being one with the purpose he reads as Cnaiür's.

There is even a reading that you can make, where Kellhus is actually admitting to Cnaiür that he is playing him, yet calling his bluff basically, by saying, "how much is killing Moe worth to you?  Enough to allow yourself to be played?"

If you put an emphasis like this: "Our missions would seem to be the same" the case could be make that Kellhus is even telling Cnaiür that he has him at an advantage.

Again, hardly cut and dry, but to me, I think the assassination idea comes direct from reading Cnaiür and aligning himself with that goal, in order to coerce Cnaiür's cooperation.

It's only well later that he realizes that he has to kill Moe for real, the the grasping of TTT.
Title: Re: The Slog WLW - Chapter 8 [Spoilers]
Post by: Blackstone on April 26, 2016, 03:27:55 pm
I don't think there is a sudden change in his mission. The first time he talks to anyone about it is with Cnauir, and he tells Cnauir that he has been sent as an assassin.

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Shimeh will be my home. I shall dwell in my father’s house.

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“I search for my father, Moënghus,” Kellhus said. “Anasûrimbor Moënghus.”

Quote
“I still live because my father passed through your lands in your youth and committed some crime for which you seek redress. I don’t think it possible for you to kill me, though this is your desire. You’re too intelligent to find satisfaction in substitutes. You understand the danger I represent, and yet you still hope to use me as the instrument of your greater desire. My circumstances, then, are of a piece with your purpose.”

Quote
“Now,” Cnaiür said, “your purpose . . . And don’t think I’m deluded into believing I’ve broken you. Your kind is not to be broken.”
There was a rustle in the blackness. “You’re right.” The voice was warm in the dark. “For my kind there’s only mission. I’ve come for my father, Anasûrimbor Moënghus. I’ve come to kill him.”
Silence, save for a gentle southern wind.
The outlander continued: “Now the dilemma is wholly yours, Scylvendi. Our missions would seem to be the same. I know where and, more important, how to find Anasûrimbor Moënghus. I offer you the very cup you desire. Is it poison or no?”
Dare he use the son?
“It’s always poison,” Cnaiür grated, “when you thirst.”

Now, of course it is plausible that he is being vague to Leweth and is misleading himself initially about "living in his father's house" but by the same measure he basically realizes that he must play Cnaiür and so presents his mission as being one with the purpose he reads as Cnaiür's.

There is even a reading that you can make, where Kellhus is actually admitting to Cnaiür that he is playing him, yet calling his bluff basically, by saying, "how much is killing Moe worth to you?  Enough to allow yourself to be played?"

If you put an emphasis like this: "Our missions would seem to be the same" the case could be make that Kellhus is even telling Cnaiür that he has him at an advantage.

Again, hardly cut and dry, but to me, I think the assassination idea comes direct from reading Cnaiür and aligning himself with that goal, in order to coerce Cnaiür's cooperation.

It's only well later that he realizes that he has to kill Moe for real, the the grasping of TTT.
I'm not saying you're definitely wrong, but IIRC, this interaction with Cnaiur is only the second chapter with Kellhus and about 1/3 of the way through the book. All I am getting at is that it isn't a swift change. He very well could be playing Cnaiur, but he may also have been sent to off his father. Thinking "I will dwell in my father's house" does not contradict the possibility that he intends to kill his father because it is such a vague thought.

That being said, I don't think he ever states or thinks of an explicit mission other than killing his father (I could be wrong), and the story arc culminates in said killing.
Title: Re: The Slog WLW - Chapter 8 [Spoilers]
Post by: H on April 26, 2016, 03:50:08 pm
I'm not saying you're definitely wrong, but IIRC, this interaction with Cnaiur is only the second chapter with Kellhus and about 1/3 of the way through the book. All I am getting at is that it isn't a swift change. He very well could be playing Cnaiur, but he may also have been sent to off his father. Thinking "I will dwell in my father's house" does not contradict the possibility that he intends to kill his father because it is such a vague thought.

That being said, I don't think he ever states or thinks of an explicit mission other than killing his father (I could be wrong), and the story arc culminates in said killing.

I think both are fair readings.  The difference is that you are inclined to believe Kellhus, where I am disinclined to believe him at his word.  It's too convenient for me to believe him with Cnaiür here because even by his own admission he is playing him, leveraging Cnaiür's desire to find and kill Moe with his own need for Cnaiür's help.
Title: Re: The Slog WLW - Chapter 8 [Spoilers]
Post by: Blackstone on April 26, 2016, 05:08:15 pm
I'm not saying you're definitely wrong, but IIRC, this interaction with Cnaiur is only the second chapter with Kellhus and about 1/3 of the way through the book. All I am getting at is that it isn't a swift change. He very well could be playing Cnaiur, but he may also have been sent to off his father. Thinking "I will dwell in my father's house" does not contradict the possibility that he intends to kill his father because it is such a vague thought.

That being said, I don't think he ever states or thinks of an explicit mission other than killing his father (I could be wrong), and the story arc culminates in said killing.

I think both are fair readings.  The difference is that you are inclined to believe Kellhus, where I am disinclined to believe him at his word.  It's too convenient for me to believe him with Cnaiür here because even by his own admission he is playing him, leveraging Cnaiür's desire to find and kill Moe with his own need for Cnaiür's help.

Ha ha. Well I'm sure you're figured out that I am a skeptic ;)

I'm not relying entirely on what Kellhus says to Cnauir. I believe it is part of his internal thoughts later in the book. I could be wrong.
Title: Re: The Slog WLW - Chapter 8 [Spoilers]
Post by: H on April 26, 2016, 05:40:16 pm
Ha ha. Well I'm sure you're figured out that I am a skeptic ;)

I'm not relying entirely on what Kellhus says to Cnauir. I believe it is part of his internal thoughts later in the book. I could be wrong.

I am a skeptic too though, haha.  Very skeptical that Kellhus is anything less than the lesser of two evils.

Thing is, I am very skeptical that Kellhus began his journey with the sole intention of killing Moe.  All the internal thoughts of his that I can find are of him just figuring out what it is the Moe is teaching him with the journey, what Moe's plan is.

Not that is carries much weight, but in the "What Comes Before" secion of TWP, we have this quote:

Quote
Though his knowledge of the Dûnyain renders Cnaiür immune to direct manipulation, Kellhus quickly realizes he can turn the man’s thirst for vengeance to his advantage. Claiming to be an assassin sent to murder Moënghus, he asks the Scylvendi to join him on his quest. Overpowered by his hatred, Cnaiür reluctantly agrees, and the two men set out across the Jiünati Steppe.

Key there for me is the word "claiming."  He claims to be an assassin.  I think that initial encounter with Cnaiür is fret with truth.  But not the whole truth.  I think that while it is true that Kellhus may need to kill Moe and he knows that, I do not believe that he is operating under this as a certainty.  He gives Cnaiür lots of facts, many truths, but never the whole story in my opinion.  There is no better lie than an incomplete truth, as I see it.

In my mind, Kellhus was sent to Moe to find out what it is he plays at.  If that is a danger to the Dûnyain, then kill him.  If not, learn what he has learned.  I actually think there is more to it, that the higher-up Dûnyain know what is really going on, that this is fulfilment of what they have worked so long on, but that is baseless and just a hunch.
Title: Re: The Slog WLW - Chapter 8 [Spoilers]
Post by: MSJ on April 26, 2016, 09:59:35 pm
There is a quote from an interview about RSB needing to add a Kellhus POV, because all the test readers are rooting and believing in Kellhus. I find myself having to force myself to not buy what Kellhus is selling. I agree, I believe there is way more to Kellhus's story than what we hear about the Dunyain/Ishual. But, as H said, it's pure speculation.
Title: Re: The Slog WLW - Chapter 8 [Spoilers]
Post by: Bolivar on April 26, 2016, 11:57:56 pm
The Pragma sent him to kill Moenghus for sure

Quote
  “It’s not in your interest to deceive me.” A stone-faced pause. “Unless …”
  “Unless,” Kellhus said, “I’ve come to assassinate you, as our Dûnyain brothers have decreed … Is this your apprehension?”

Quote
  Though battle stress and the absence of eyes complicated his reading, Kellhus could see the man spoke sincerely. But why, after summoning him from so far, would his father now leave him in the dark?
  He knows the Pragma have sent me as an assassin … He needs to be certain of me first.

But is that what he intended? As pointed out, he only resolves to find his father and learn what he intends. The Dunyain war for circumstance - even against each other. Which is what makes me curious whether Kellhus seeks to liberate himself from The Thousandfold Thought.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

Title: Re: The Slog WLW - Chapter 8 [Spoilers]
Post by: H on April 27, 2016, 10:22:30 am
I don't doubt that the Pragma told him he might need to kill his father.  That's just logical.  I just don't buy that, setting out from Ishual, Kellhus definitely planned on killing him.  It was a possibility, but not his definitive motive or plan.

I feel that he was only sure that it was necessary after the Circumflix, after grasping the Thousandfold Thought and finally after the incident with the leaf on the way to Kyudea.  For all we know the Pragma could have been in on Moe's TT really; we've speculated before how the Pragma that received the Dreams removed themselves and the way that it is possible that this was because they knew they had to in order to deceive Kellhus about the "mission."
Title: Re: The Slog WLW - Chapter 8 [Spoilers]
Post by: Blackstone on April 27, 2016, 04:21:40 pm
I don't doubt that the Pragma told him he might need to kill his father.  That's just logical.  I just don't buy that, setting out from Ishual, Kellhus definitely planned on killing him.  It was a possibility, but not his definitive motive or plan.

I feel that he was only sure that it was necessary after the Circumflix, after grasping the Thousandfold Thought and finally after the incident with the leaf on the way to Kyudea.  For all we know the Pragma could have been in on Moe's TT really; we've speculated before how the Pragma that received the Dreams removed themselves and the way that it is possible that this was because they knew they had to in order to deceive Kellhus about the "mission."
From the quotes Bolivar gave, it sounds like the Pragma definitely sent Kellhus to kill Moe. You do make a point though, we can't be entirely certain Kellhus intended to carry out his mission.
This is where the skeptic in me comes out: I can't believe that anything other than what we saw in the narrative in regards to the Pragmas killing themselves. If they only pretended to do so to deceive Kellhus, then I think we should have seen something to that effect by the end of the TTT. So I am in the camp that they legitimately send Kellhus to kill Moe, and then committed suicide because they had been polluted by the dreams.
Title: Re: The Slog WLW - Chapter 8 [Spoilers]
Post by: H on April 27, 2016, 05:55:22 pm
From the quotes Bolivar gave, it sounds like the Pragma definitely sent Kellhus to kill Moe. You do make a point though, we can't be entirely certain Kellhus intended to carry out his mission.
This is where the skeptic in me comes out: I can't believe that anything other than what we saw in the narrative in regards to the Pragmas killing themselves. If they only pretended to do so to deceive Kellhus, then I think we should have seen something to that effect by the end of the TTT. So I am in the camp that they legitimately send Kellhus to kill Moe, and then committed suicide because they had been polluted by the dreams.

Well, there is plenty to be skeptical of with Kellhus' mission as presented.

First, we are only told of the Pragmas going down to TTH to die by Kellhus, who watches from outside Ishual.  He only assumes that the "plan" was carried out that they would die.  We really have no idea if they do or not.

Second, the Pragma must know that Moe is very powerful at this point.  So much so that he is a threat to all the Dûnyain, yet they send only one person to "stop" (kill, what have you) him.  That does not seem so logical, especially considering that Kellhus almost doesn't make it several times, including freezing to death in the snow.  That is the best plan contrived by all the senior Pragma, when Moe is able to, by himself, comprise a Thousandfold Thought that can dominate the entire Three Seas?  Granted, it was over more time, but still, that are certainly more than one Pragma.

Third, why would the Pragma do exactly what Moe asks?  We are told that he sent dreams saying "send me my son."  Why, if they wanted to stop him, would they do exactly what he asked?  Unless there was some other reason why they were compelled to comply...

Fourth, why is Kellhus constantly telling people about the Dûnyain?  The whole point of a secret society is that it's supposed to be a secret.

Fifth, why was Moe sent away in the first place?  Frankly I do not buy the idea that Sranc contaminated him to the point that he couldn't come back to Ishual.  And even considering that they might have, why not just kill him?  Obviously, if we are to believe that the Pramga killed themselves (or allowed themselves to be killed) for being polluted, why wasn't the same done with Moe?

That's all I could think of at the moment.  To me though, it doesn't add up to the "story" we're told being the whole story.
Title: Re: The Slog WLW - Chapter 8 [Spoilers]
Post by: Blackstone on April 27, 2016, 07:23:53 pm
From the quotes Bolivar gave, it sounds like the Pragma definitely sent Kellhus to kill Moe. You do make a point though, we can't be entirely certain Kellhus intended to carry out his mission.
This is where the skeptic in me comes out: I can't believe that anything other than what we saw in the narrative in regards to the Pragmas killing themselves. If they only pretended to do so to deceive Kellhus, then I think we should have seen something to that effect by the end of the TTT. So I am in the camp that they legitimately send Kellhus to kill Moe, and then committed suicide because they had been polluted by the dreams.

Well, there is plenty to be skeptical of with Kellhus' mission as presented.

First, we are only told of the Pragmas going down to TTH to die by Kellhus, who watches from outside Ishual.  He only assumes that the "plan" was carried out that they would die.  We really have no idea if they do or not.

Second, the Pragma must know that Moe is very powerful at this point.  So much so that he is a threat to all the Dûnyain, yet they send only one person to "stop" (kill, what have you) him.  That does not seem so logical, especially considering that Kellhus almost doesn't make it several times, including freezing to death in the snow.  That is the best plan contrived by all the senior Pragma, when Moe is able to, by himself, comprise a Thousandfold Thought that can dominate the entire Three Seas?  Granted, it was over more time, but still, that are certainly more than one Pragma.

Third, why would the Pragma do exactly what Moe asks?  We are told that he sent dreams saying "send me my son."  Why, if they wanted to stop him, would they do exactly what he asked?  Unless there was some other reason why they were compelled to comply...

Fourth, why is Kellhus constantly telling people about the Dûnyain?  The whole point of a secret society is that it's supposed to be a secret.

Fifth, why was Moe sent away in the first place?  Frankly I do not buy the idea that Sranc contaminated him to the point that he couldn't come back to Ishual.  And even considering that they might have, why not just kill him?  Obviously, if we are to believe that the Pramga killed themselves (or allowed themselves to be killed) for being polluted, why wasn't the same done with Moe?

That's all I could think of at the moment.  To me though, it doesn't add up to the "story" we're told being the whole story.

You make some good points. The only point I'm trying to make is that from everything we are told, Kellhus's mission was to kill Moe.

As for the rest:
1. You're right, we don't know if they actually killed themselves. I personally would find it disappointing if it turns out they were playing some long con on Kellhus, because we don't see any actual clues for five books (and 20 odd years of time in the story) that they are indeed playing some game. We only have to second prologue to go on, and everything points to a suicide pact.

2 and 3. It is my opinion that the Pragmas were just trying to stop the dreams to prevent the destruction of their "utopia," and that means sending Kellhus. Does it seem like a longshot that Kellhus will succeed? Yes. Do they have any reason to think Moe will continue to plague them if they do what he asks? No, I don't think so. You could speculate that they sent more than one Dunyain assassin, but there is zero evidence in the book, so it's like using apologetics to explain all the plot holes HBO's Game of Thrones (some people don't mind it, I do).

4. Who besides Cnauir does he tell? I don't remember that he tells anyone else. He kind of flirts with it in WLW when he is talking to Proyas and says Akka's book is true.

5. You have me there. I have been wondering that myself. It would seem to be the shortest path to have Moe kill himself after going to fight the Sranc.

You're skeptical of the story that is being told. I'm skeptical of the hidden agendas and shadow-shrouded power players. One of us is right, and I won't be too proud to say "touché H, touché," if it turns out to be you. I will have to say the same to MSJ as well :D
Title: Re: The Slog WLW - Chapter 8 [Spoilers]
Post by: H on April 27, 2016, 07:50:45 pm
You make some good points. The only point I'm trying to make is that from everything we are told, Kellhus's mission was to kill Moe.

As for the rest:
1. You're right, we don't know if they actually killed themselves. I personally would find it disappointing if it turns out they were playing some long con on Kellhus, because we don't see any actual clues for five books (and 20 odd years of time in the story) that they are indeed playing some game. We only have to second prologue to go on, and everything points to a suicide pact.

2 and 3. It is my opinion that the Pragmas were just trying to stop the dreams to prevent the destruction of their "utopia," and that means sending Kellhus. Does it seem like a longshot that Kellhus will succeed? Yes. Do they have any reason to think Moe will continue to plague them if they do what he asks? No, I don't think so. You could speculate that they sent more than one Dunyain assassin, but there is zero evidence in the book, so it's like using apologetics to explain all the plot holes HBO's Game of Thrones (some people don't mind it, I do).

4. Who besides Cnauir does he tell? I don't remember that he tells anyone else. He kind of flirts with it in WLW when he is talking to Proyas and says Akka's book is true.

5. You have me there. I have been wondering that myself. It would seem to be the shortest path to have Moe kill himself after going to fight the Sranc.

You're skeptical of the story that is being told. I'm skeptical of the hidden agendas and shadow-shrouded power players. One of us is right, and I won't be too proud to say "touché H, touché," if it turns out to be you. I will have to say the same to MSJ as well :D

Yeah, it's as plausible that we are told exactly what it going on too.  Thing is, I am pretty skeptical of the why Moe was sent away, which makes me really question what exactly the motivations are in sending Kellhus away.  It could well be that it's exactly what it seems.  I have doubts though.

I could well be that the Pragma figure that sending Kellhus will get Moe out of their hair.  But when I look back at the oddity of how Moe got into their hair in the first place, that seems so odd.

The text does seem to imply that Kellhus is telling at least those in Atrithau, and later he names his followers Zaudunyani.  Again, circumstantial, but still odd to me.  It just doesn't seem to all add up in my mind.  There are explanations about it all, but again, none of them really seem to go together.
Title: Re: The Slog WLW - Chapter 8 [Spoilers]
Post by: Blackstone on April 27, 2016, 07:58:03 pm
You make some good points. The only point I'm trying to make is that from everything we are told, Kellhus's mission was to kill Moe.

As for the rest:
1. You're right, we don't know if they actually killed themselves. I personally would find it disappointing if it turns out they were playing some long con on Kellhus, because we don't see any actual clues for five books (and 20 odd years of time in the story) that they are indeed playing some game. We only have to second prologue to go on, and everything points to a suicide pact.

2 and 3. It is my opinion that the Pragmas were just trying to stop the dreams to prevent the destruction of their "utopia," and that means sending Kellhus. Does it seem like a longshot that Kellhus will succeed? Yes. Do they have any reason to think Moe will continue to plague them if they do what he asks? No, I don't think so. You could speculate that they sent more than one Dunyain assassin, but there is zero evidence in the book, so it's like using apologetics to explain all the plot holes HBO's Game of Thrones (some people don't mind it, I do).

4. Who besides Cnauir does he tell? I don't remember that he tells anyone else. He kind of flirts with it in WLW when he is talking to Proyas and says Akka's book is true.

5. You have me there. I have been wondering that myself. It would seem to be the shortest path to have Moe kill himself after going to fight the Sranc.

You're skeptical of the story that is being told. I'm skeptical of the hidden agendas and shadow-shrouded power players. One of us is right, and I won't be too proud to say "touché H, touché," if it turns out to be you. I will have to say the same to MSJ as well :D

Yeah, it's as plausible that we are told exactly what it going on too.  Thing is, I am pretty skeptical of the why Moe was sent away, which makes me really question what exactly the motivations are in sending Kellhus away.  It could well be that it's exactly what it seems.  I have doubts though.

I could well be that the Pragma figure that sending Kellhus will get Moe out of their hair.  But when I look back at the oddity of how Moe got into their hair in the first place, that seems so odd.

The text does seem to imply that Kellhus is telling at least those in Atrithau, and later he names his followers Zaudunyani.  Again, circumstantial, but still odd to me.  It just doesn't seem to all add up in my mind.  There are explanations about it all, but again, none of them really seem to go together.
I agree. I have no explanation as to why Moe was sent away in lieu of committing suicide. So perhaps there is something there.

Dunyain, in Kuiniuric (sp) just means "truth" IIRC. Naming his followers Zaudunyani (truth seeker?) doesn't mean he's going around telling everyone exactly what the Dunyain are. It's just a word in a "dead" language. No one would have any reason to think that the Dunyain exist as a group super human logic monks just because Kell names his followers Zaudunyani.
Title: Re: The Slog WLW - Chapter 8 [Spoilers]
Post by: Bolivar on April 27, 2016, 08:23:33 pm
I'm expecting absolutely none of us to be right and we would have been better served discussing the themes and arguments presented in the books than conjecture!

Check this out:

Quote
Meigon (4002- )—A member of the Dûnyain Pragma.

Quote
Uän, Samarmau (4001- )—One of the Dûnyain Pragma.

Interesting to me that

1. These guys lived over a hundred years. Product of inbreeding with Nonman blood in the gene pool or was it something else? Might be good to check how long Anasûrimbor kings naturally lived. I wanted to make a thread about this since apparently Triamis the Great lived over 120 iirc.

2. Both were born within a year of eachother. Are the Dunyain hatched in cycles or something?

3. No death date. The prologue only mentions the elder Dûnyain were on the parapet and the polluted ones would die so maybe they weren't among them. But if they were, this seems to leave open the possibility they didn't kill themselves.
Title: Re: The Slog WLW - Chapter 8 [Spoilers]
Post by: Blackstone on April 27, 2016, 09:04:01 pm
I'm expecting absolutely none of us to be right and we would have been better served discussing the themes and arguments presented in the books than conjecture!

Check this out:

Quote
Meigon (4002- )—A member of the Dûnyain Pragma.

Quote
Uän, Samarmau (4001- )—One of the Dûnyain Pragma.

Interesting to me that

1. These guys lived over a hundred years. Product of inbreeding with Nonman blood in the gene pool or was it something else? Might be good to check how long Anasûrimbor kings naturally lived. I wanted to make a thread about this since apparently Triamis the Great lived over 120 iirc.

2. Both were born within a year of eachother. Are the Dunyain hatched in cycles or something?

3. No death date. The prologue only mentions the elder Dûnyain were on the parapet and the polluted ones would die so maybe they weren't among them. But if they were, this seems to leave open the possibility they didn't kill themselves.
Yeah, it seems likely that Anasurimbor blood is now in every one of the Dunyain with their limited gene pool. Perhaps some of the long life is a result of the physical perfection they've been able to achieve as well.
Title: Re: The Slog WLW - Chapter 8 [Spoilers]
Post by: MSJ on April 27, 2016, 09:26:48 pm
I'm expecting absolutely none of us to be right and we would have been better served discussing the themes and arguments presented in the books than conjecture!

Where the hell is the fun in that? :)