Yeah, at first blush, Aurang and co. seem pretty bumbling, since they fail so many times, but in reality, given what they could know and anticipate, I think their plans are pretty cunning.  Unfortunately, they are running into the freight-train that is TTT.

H, you could very well be right about Skeaös, but, from the first time we meet Istriya there are hints the something is different. Here is what Xerius said the first time we meet her.

Quote

He sensed something odd in her manner, something bottled.

When Conphas comes back from Kiyuth:

Quote

A splendid idea, Uncle.” Conphas glanced to his right and finally saw his grandmother. She wore a green silk gown crisscrossed by a form-hugging sash of blue. As always, she looked an old whore playing the coquette. But there was something in her expression . She seemed different somehow.

So both times something is different about Istriya, enough that it is remarked upon.

You could well be right, she does seem to be attempting to guide Xerius away from subverting the Holy War from the get go.

Thinking more upon that now, it would make sense, that she was replaced, then the Consult, perhaps because it was easier, but then the Consult realized that she didn't have his ear as much as Skeaös did, so they moved to replace him too.

Just finished chapter 5 this morning, because I didn't have time to read over the weekend.

It would seem to me though, that at this point, Skeaös and the Emperess are not yet skin-spies.  I believe that it is only after Xerius meets with Mallahet and learns of the SS's involvement, and so work against the Holy War, that the Consult moves in and starts directing things there.

Note how all of a sudden Skeaös' story changes in later chapters, where as before, here in chapter 5, he even cites the Indenture as his own idea.  I would think that Emperess Istriya was replaced after Skeaös was eliminated, as well, to keep an agent in the midst of the Emperor.

The Consult wants the Holy War to succeed.  Why then would the Skeaös agent not be informed of  the Scarlet Spires' joining the Holy War?  The Consult certainly knew by then.  No, I think that it is only after Xerius learns of this in the Mallahet meeting and is actively planning to subvert the Holy War that Skeaös is replaced.  I think it is just before he meets with Conphas that the substitution takes place.

Quote from: Wilshire on December 03, 2015, 12:20:01 am

Quote from: locke on December 03, 2015, 12:07:36 am

Why do we think the consult was eliminating mandate spies right on the cusp of the Holy war? What's the motive in moving against them for the consult at this time? The consult doesn't try to kill aka they just monitor his movements.

Who can fathom the consult... But more importantly, if not the Consult, then there is a Mandate defector, which makes far less sense. Who else could hunt and kill all of the Mandate's informants?

You're just baiting me with that question.

Regardless who it was, eliminating mandate spies systematically just before the war began caused the result of the Mandate going full turtle for years and they did not participate in the affairs of the realm for the entire war. It scared them so bad the mandate improbably only had one agent monitoring the war and did not even attempt to replace their agent whilst he was incommunicado for exceedingly long stretches.

Who does that advantage and was such an... efficient... outcome intentional or coincidental?

I think you kind of answered your own question though.

To me, it would seem that the Consult was very passive from the time the Mandate "lost contact" with them up to when Moe started to unveil the skin-spies.  Once that happened, they were drawn into Moe's TTT by the fact that they believed they needed the Cishuarim eliminated, because the simple infiltration couldn't be relied upon if they would detect the skin-spies.  This meant that being passive was not going to cut it, which is why Aurang, probably, wheels out the synthese and takes wing to the Three Seas to oversee the whole operation at this point.  There is also the fact that I think Aurang is very suspicious of how the skin-spies are being caught, which is why he is so interested in learning what's changed now.

Considering this, it makes sense, at least to me, that the Consult switching from passive to active means they'd be interested in cutting off any eyes (or ears) the Mandate would have on them, or more importantly, on those they are looking to manipulate.  The last thing I think they want is the Mandate catching wind of what they are after in the long run of this Holy War.  Even less so would they want an outright confrontation with a Mandate sorcerer.  We know that Akka's power level is pretty high, in reality, so trying to kill him directly would see like a bad idea.  Not only that, because a Chorae could be arranged, the reality is Akka as an agent is valuable to the Consult.  Since the Consult has ears in the Quarum, Akka is actually unwittingly an agent for the Consult.

In the end though, like you pointed out, the Mandate holes up and the Consult couldn't really have asked for more.  I think that Aurang knows full well how to manipulate the Mandate at least somewhat.  If we're right, and I think there is a decent about of circumstantial evidence that we might be, the Simas-agent has been in place for a pretty long time.  The Consult (or at least Aurang) knows pretty well what they are thinking.  While picking off the agents worked splendidly, and no doubt beyond what Aurang had planned, I don't think it was wholly accidental.

On the chapter 3:

How the God could be equated with the absence of hesitation was something Achamian had never understood. After all, what was the God but the mystery that burdened them all? What was hesitation but a dwelling-within this mystery?

He could turn this ship into a shining inferno, then walk unscathed across the surface of the water, and yet he could never be . . . certain.

This struck me as ringing true of Omnirom's point that the Mark is measure of "the inherent falseness of the assumption" or at least, the perceived falseness, due to the lack of certainty.  Is this part of what differentiates the Psukhe?  The Cishuaurim definitely seem certain.

The Chronicle of the Tusk was the most ancient and therefore the most thunderous voice of the past, so ancient that it was itself without any clear history—“innocent,” as the great Ceneian commentator Gaeterius had written.

Oh, Gaeterius, you silly, silly man.  If you only knew...

An iron hand clamped about the nape of his neck and yanked him forward, lifting his ear to Sarcellus’s lips.
“How I’ve longed to do that, pig,” the man whispered.

This seems to speak to me that Sarcellus has already been replaced.  We know the skin-spies can see Seswatha in Akka and this goes right to that.  Another point that the Consult already knows about Akka and his mission and plan to use him.

The only thing that struck me is the character of Simas.  Since we know he will later be reavealed as a sin-spy, the question is, when was he replaced?

The options would seem to be either before this chapter, or after.  Considering though, how it seems to know things from the distant past, i.e. it mentions that it told Nautzera when Inrau went missing that it was not an accident but a defection, however one that might prove useful in the future, it would seem the the skin-spy predates that?  Or else, how would it know of that?

Good thing we are on a reread then

I found it and I was wrong, at least, as far as we know it really was the Cish that did it.  How they did it though, I have no idea, some kind of meta-Psukhe or something I'd guess, probably something Moe dreamed up.

P19 kellhus sees the script and is surprised the world is "older than the Dunyain"... uh, duh? I really get the feeling through a lot of this that it's not just Kellhus who is conceited, but really just all dunyain. They have some really weird gaps in the preternatural intelligence. Like, how to survive in the wild or thinking the wold is 2000 years old.

Well, I think this is  to illustrate how sheltered the Dunyain were.  They never even considered teaching and something that Kellhus probably never really thought about, even though it's very obvious.

Pg28, specifically - OUR elju. So mr.sranc here held the memories of multiple nonmen? Or is our a gimmicky way to say MY to make Me here sound old-timey?

I wonder if he uses the plural to refer to a fractured personality, perhaps?

H.,

I'm not saying Kelhuss is infallible, only I believe he can and is and has manipulated the Outside. Dont really want to get ahead of the conversation here, but on example of manipulating the Outside could be Serwe's heart or going to the Outside and hunting Chiprang. I believe Kelhuss is fully in control, only his decisions will come into question. There is plenty of evidence to say he's wrong about things.

I follow you there, what I'm saying is, there is no doubt he is manipulatating the Outside, the Cipphrang heads are literal proof of this.  My point is that I doubt his reach is as far or as strong as it is in Earwa.  In other words, I think he feels he is manipulating the Outside as he has Earwa, but I don't know that he really is.

I think this is why Moe is shocked by their encounter (even though he tries to hide it).  The idea that Kellhus can manipulate Earwa and the Outside against some sort of middle is audacious to say the least.  We'll have to see if he can pull it off.  I have my doubts.

Not sure if there are any fans here, but the new Joanna Newsom album (Divers) is really, really good.  Took a bit for me to re-calibrate to her, but definitely enjoying it a lot now.