The Second Apocalypse
Earwa => The Aspect-Emperor => The White-Luck Warrior => Topic started by: What Came Before on May 07, 2013, 01:06:36 am
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Why does Yatwer need the White-Luck Warrior and Sorweel?
Aren't they both supposed to kill Kellhus?
Or maybe Yatwer has seperate plans for them?
Perhaps it's not really Yatwer that is helping Sorweel?
Some other entity? The Consult?
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I would suggest that its pretty clear Yatwer is playing Sorweel - by playing I just mean manipulating to her own ends - as there is a POV from the Goddess in WLW before Sorweel's slave kills himself.
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Perhaps it's Kellhus?
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Perhaps Yatwer has something else in mind for Sorweel such as killing his children?
One or the other could also be a Kellhus killing back-up plan I guess.
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Sorweel would seem like the sleeper agent. Especially because the undetectable Chorae in the Aporotic - a guess - sac is ominously intended for use.
I've also thought about the necessity of White-Luck Warrior's proximity to Kellhus. I'd highlighted in my Unholy Consult post that Esmenet's Executioner stands by her side, to protect her, until such a time the Gods decree to drop the ax. As we do not know the extent time frames of TSA or the White-Luck Warrior's visions, we can assume many possible instances when the White-Luck might kill Kellhus. Like if Kellhus comes back south after joining the Consult, for instance.
That is if we trust the White-Luck's visions at all.
Also, there remains the issue of the relationship between the Gods and the Nonmen. While I was mistaken about sorcery, as compelling as that theory might be, we know for sure that the Inchoroi added the Tusk's passage concerning the Nonmen as False and deserving of Divine persecution.
Perhaps Yatwer's object for Sorweel simply is to travel to the Nonmen Mansion.
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It slipped by me on my 1st read , but I just realized that the person who killed Maithanet was the White Luck. I realize I might be late on this one, and I wouldn't have put it together if it wasn't for the earlobes. I had to backtrack like crazy because it bothered me so much. I totally thought Esmenet had found a random assassin priest.
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What about the earlobes?
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Not only that, KK, but from the White-Luck Warrior's perspective, he is fated to kill the Blessed Empress at some point. He is to protect her until such a time only Gods decide.
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And the Aspect-Emperor too.
I believe that so far everything he has seen himself do has happened in that way, so does this guarantee him killing both of them? I'm guessing that with the standing outside of time thing, it's certain that things will go as the White Luck predicts/determines and the only thing that could screw up Yatwer's plan is another thread of White Luck predicting/determining the history of the World. If Momas or Husyelt or Gilgaol or whoeever sent their own WLW and this prevents Yatwer's WLW from completing his mission, that would fit with both the 'parts cannot see the whole' theme and the 'competing interests bring ruin to all competors' theme.
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The problem is that the White Luck Warrior exists in a world where there is no No-God. His predictions may well be entirely false.
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The problem is that the White Luck Warrior exists in a world where there is no No-God. His predictions may well be entirely false.
Could turn out to be awfully problematic if the WLW walked directly into a huge whirlwind with a presumably undetectable foe at its center, completely unawares. May be confusing when the whole "seeing himself in front of himself" thing starts to not look like whats actually going on around him.
Though just because the gods cant see Mog doesn't necessarily mean that the WLW cant. Except that he says that everything is a gift from Yatwer. Hopefully thats metaphorical and not literal (for the WLW's sake).
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The problem is that the White Luck Warrior exists in a world where there is no No-God. His predictions may well be entirely false.
Could turn out to be awfully problematic if the WLW walked directly into a huge whirlwind with a presumably undetectable foe at its center, completely unawares. May be confusing when the whole "seeing himself in front of himself" thing starts to not look like whats actually going on around him.
Though just because the gods cant see Mog doesn't necessarily mean that the WLW cant. Except that he says that everything is a gift from Yatwer. Hopefully thats metaphorical and not literal (for the WLW's sake).
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I think The Sharmat hit the nail on the head. So much of the Consult's actions are a mystery to EVERYONE in Earwa. We know WHAT they do. But we don't really know WHY they do what they do. The fact that they created the Tusk, among other things, leads me to believe everything they say is misinformation. Add to that the fact that Tsuramah is outside the view of the Gods, even though He was plainly active in Earwa, says a lot to me.
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Presumably the No-God is outside the view of the Gods because he was ONLY active in Earwa. This is in contrast to any intelligence with a soul, which exists both in the material world and the Outside.
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Presumably the No-God is outside the view of the Gods because he was ONLY active in Earwa. This is in contrast to any intelligence with a soul, which exists both in the material world and the Outside.
Are you suggesting that if the gods can't see anything that doesnt have a soul? (I probably just dont understand what you're saying though)
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It's specifically said by...Maithanet, I think? That the Gods are blind to the No-God because they cannot conceive of an intellect without a soul. Ergo, any interaction it has with every other possibility in the time line is invisible to them.
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Do the Inchi and the non-men have souls? I'd imagine that in order to be damned you would need a soul. So can the gods see the Inchi but nothing of the Tekne (unless a soul appears in it by accident).
The Inchoroi and Nonmen certainly have souls. That's their whole motive. Saving them. I don't think the Gods are blinded to the tekne any more than they're blinded by any other tool. But if you can't see the motives or actions of the user because it has no soul, then you run into an issue.
There has been some stipulation that the No-God is kind of a soul trapping device. I guess this fact would seem to throw out that theory since if the No-God was some kind of collection of souls then the gods would be able to see him. Right?
Not necessarily, because I think once the No-God manifests the Gods are completely blinded to everything. The Outside becomes closed. Thus the "any soul that meets him goes no further" deal with those who die in his presence, and the years of the womb. Presumably every child was stillborn because no souls could manifest to inhabit the fetus.
What about the Synthese? Actually a question before that, any ideas on how the synthase operates? I thought it was some kind of proxy body, or was there a quote that said something about cramming an intellect so vast into such a small skull (I cant remember the quote exactly, I believe its in TDTCB. It may have said soul/body instead of intellect/skull).
There are a few statements along those lines. Aurang seems quite diminished in intellect and power while bound to the Synthese. It seems to be some kind of soul binding deal. Whether this is Aurang's soul somehow remote operating the body or if it's actually stuck in there entirely and Aurang's body is temporarily soulless, I don't know. If it's the latter, I wonder what would happen should the Synthese be destroyed?
What about the dragons, and the other weapon races. Can the gods not see any of that?
No, because none of the weapon races (with the exception of that accident with the Skin Spy) have souls. Well, Wutteat does but he wasn't made by the Inchoroi. Just the basis for one of their productions.
Random thoughts:
Could the Absolute, once attained, render one invisible to the gods as well? Perhaps once a soul if 'free', it renders them invisible. Or maybe in the least, able to operate in certain ways that the gods do not see. Who knows.
By the Dunyain definition of the Absolute, I suppose it would. Since the person in question would come before the Gods, being the source even for their motives.
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To me it all makes the Gods seem largely irreverent, and therefore their tools equally pointless. The whole WLW thing, though an interesting concept, becomes almost silly with all the invisible enemies running around that it can't see.
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I've said many times that I can imagine a world where the White-Luck Warrior and the God's visions and prophecies are events that happen exactly as they see them, they just don't perceive the affections of the soulless, even though they perceive a unified result, which includes the consequences of those actions. It's exactly in line with Bakker's suggestion that the conscious of any entity is unconscious of its unconscious parts, doesn't question its unified perception, etc.
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Sure but isn't an imperfect understanding disastrous at some point? If the gods concept of cause and effect is more or less what the Dunyain believe, then there is a problem. For example its like all the dunyain that don't know of TTT because they dont possess all the variables to grasp it. They could look and look into the end of time, or the beginning of it i guess, and they would never see the end of their own world. Shouldn't the Gods be hit by a similar conclusion. Sure they can see everything that happens, but in a time and a place the the Consult and their machinations dont exist.
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By the Dunyain definition of the Absolute, I suppose it would. Since the person in question would come before the Gods, being the source even for their motives.
ahem. Right now AK is the source of the motives of Yatwer etc.
I've said many times that I can imagine a world where the White-Luck Warrior and the God's visions and prophecies are events that happen exactly as they see them, they just don't perceive the affections of the soulless, even though they perceive a unified result, which includes the consequences of those actions. It's exactly in line with Bakker's suggestion that the conscious of any entity is unconscious of its unconscious parts, doesn't question its unified perception, etc.
If we add to this that the AK children have two souls, which one do the gods see? And does Kelmomas, if his two souls are more or less conscious (but one is hidden) have an enormous advantage as a weapon against the gods? Maybe the WLW can see Kelmo, but they can't see Kelmo when Sammy is running Kelmo's body?
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I definitely think that two soul thing is a metaphor for expressing Dunyain genetics in the fiction, excepting Kelmomas and Sammi, which I think is an undecided issue.
Also, I think you're both [EDIT: Maybe just, Wilshire] missing my meaning. I'm suggesting that everything actually happens as the Gods and the White-Luck Warrior perceive that it does and that the events they witness include the consequences of the actions of the soulless. The Gods simply rationalize their experience of events to make sense, despite not including key factors.
For instance, the Gods perceive that a man will die, at a certain point, in a war. This man actually gets hit by an arrow shot by a Skin-Spy. The Gods simply don't perceive this action yet perceive the consequence and... rationalize their own functional narrative so it makes sense without including the Skin-Spy?
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Nah I understand what you are saying completely. I just dont buy into it. Like the issue with the dunyain not perceiving everything, eventually things dont add up. To me, they cant simultaneously 'predict' everything while not seeing a major portion of the events.
Seeing outcomes only gets you so far. Maybe a case of alternate timelines or alternate realities that the gods dont fully see and understand. Its stated somewhere, TTT maybe, that the gods see all of time at once. But who is to say 'all' means everything? They can see the cause and effect chain as it should be, with some finite margin of error. But what was 'supposed' to happen was effected by something major (good old Mog) then events would diverge. Maybe this divergence simply cannot be factored into what the gods see, considering the nature of how they perceive time.
Guess thats just a round about way of me saying that the gods being fallible, even just a little, makes them very far from omnipotent, and that they become just as likely to fail as anything else. Maybe thats flawed logic though.
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Thought that occured to me this weekend.
What happens when an unstoppable force encounters an immovable object?
We know that the Ark is immovable.
We know that no sorcery or work of man is unstoppable, even Kellhus has been stopped by other men, he is persistent but not unstoppable.
But the White Luck Warrior is beyond the works of man, and is an unstoppable force.
Perhaps Kellhus has planned on forcing the White Luck Warrior into acting against him, in order to draw the White Luck to the Ark. Force the Gods to encounter what they cannot see and do not encounter. Perhaps he wants to see what happens when an unstoppable force encounters an immovable object.
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watched batman recently?
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as far as i know there has been no specific individual named as th "white luck warrior" ?
i thought perhaps it was sorweel, and the visions seem inconclusive at least.
any help?
i really don't think it's the narindar that kills maithanet, he has no character development...
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It seems probable scenarios are cultivated by Yatwer till one is the one that has the WLW kill AK. In such a case perhaps Sorweel is needed to forfil the scenario?
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Welcome, shadowjack. I've had speculations alone the same lines as yourself, that the White-Luck Warrior is more a sort of vested spirit or as ensouling multiple peoples simultaneously as he expresses his agency from the Outside into the World.
However, Bakker's style of writing is marked by some consistencies that would suggest that the Narindar who killed Maithanet is indeed the White-Luck Warrior. I expect that in the next books the White-Luck Warrior's perspective and existence are going to be much more thoroughly explored...
Along with Meppa's.
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or it's all made-up religious hokey?
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burn the heretic!
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or it's all made-up religious hokey?
Nah, there must be a complicated, overly penetrating, all encompassing explanation.
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I'd think the Gods can see the Ark. The Inchoroi and presumably every other ranking member of the Consult have souls. Only their creations are lacking them.
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I combined the The White-Luck Warrior & Sorweel and this thread into one. They rehashed much of the same ground. However, some of the posts are out of order, it seems. The threads must have been going on almost simultaneously.
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Frankly I think that Kelhus was such a Uber-hero that nobody could oppose in the Earwa and beyond that author needed to make us believe there is something going after him that stands a chance. A guy who lives in past, present and future. Who therefore negates the Dunyain principle of before and after already by his existance. A person who can easily kill a Dunyain. And now we can be afraid he will.
Simple readers feelings - I do not sympathize with either Gods or God who put ppl to eternal damnation, nor do I sympathize with pure Evil of Consult machinations ,nor with scientific manipulatory Kelhus. All are bad. But to choose I would preffer Kel vs Yatwer so now I dont like the WHite Luck Guy too much since he might do the trick before Kel assaults the COnsult (or joins it ). Obviously there is Akka or Cnauir who are far more on the good side for the regular reader. But one is dead and the other is plain too Gandalific nice fellow, who must win anyway to fear for his life.
Thats a simple perspective from the Darkness that Comes Before the other thoughs. Emotions.
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Maybe an unsouled intellect is a bit like a cant of compulsion for a god (or like a pshuke invocation). They just think they willed it? Sranc? Yeah, just meant that to happen?
Souls are the only anomalies they can see. The only contrast they can percieve from their own will?
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Man, had to dig deep to find this wildly-off-track thread. :P
I've been wondering about the possibility of the WLW, at some point in the future, taking Sorweel's place, the way he took the assassin's place. It's said that Yatwer is "positioning" him. I could see this as literally creating a position which the WLW could fill.
My first minor hold up here is whether or not Sorweel will ever even see Kell again. My theory there is that after they take Dagliash, the Niom will be fulfilled and the three will ride with the nonmen to the Ordeal. I don't know if there's anything that necessarily precludes this. Except for whatever crazy shit is actually going on in Ishterebinth.
My main hold up here is that Kellhus knows what Sorweel looks like, and knew this before Porsparian blessed Sorweel. So there's no fooling him there.
He does not know what the WLW looks like, nor do we know what his and Yatwer's powers are in regards to shaping his face or creating an illusion (point against: he certainly made no effort to look like the assassin, even though his hair was radically different from those kinds of assassins and could have alerted Esmenet). Not that Kellhus is the type to 'let down his guard', but if he were, it might be while meeting with or individually greeting the Believer Kings, perhaps after a long and arduous battle.
Am I missing anything that makes this impossible or unlikely? Honestly I can barely even get behind the idea of someone killing Kell, surprise sword-breaking or not, but the WLW is 1 for 1 on the amazingly smooth killing of a half Dunyain at least.
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Sorweel is a Kahit (world soul), imo. He doesn't belong to Yatwer like the WLW and Psatma - he hasn't given her anything yet. For all we know she is actually trying to keep him out of the way.
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Sorweel is a Kahit (world soul), imo. He doesn't belong to Yatwer like the WLW and Psatma - he hasn't given her anything yet. For all we know she is actually trying to keep him out of the way.
You'd be hard pressed to make this distinction for me. Aren't Kahiht the mortal manifestations and pawns of all major players, including the Gods? I'm not sure if you've read any Hegel but Kahiht is basically a direct rip from Hegel's World-Historical Individuals.
(point against: he certainly made no effort to look like the assassin, even though his hair was radically different from those kinds of assassins and could have alerted Esmenet).
That would have been my response. Also, we don't know that Yatwer doesn't have plans for Sorweel and the Nonmen as we know very little about the relationship between agencies (the Gods as Nonmen refer to them and entities of the Outside) and the Nonmen.
But realistically, should Kellhus not be able to see through Yatwer's Mask (which, I think, if he has spent enough time around Sorweel he can but only because he would detect a discrepancy between Sorweel's words and his ability to predict his thoughts from his expression) then he would never be able to know that Esmenet's Narindar is the White-Luck Warrior. Kellhus would just see a man whom he'd be indebted to and have little to no reason to suspect (as Maithanet died before he made this clear ;)).
I have a feeling Kellhus will be in Momemn so we'll see...
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Sorweel is a Kahit (world soul), imo. He doesn't belong to Yatwer like the WLW and Psatma - he hasn't given her anything yet. For all we know she is actually trying to keep him out of the way.
You'd be hard pressed to make this distinction for me. Aren't Kahiht the mortal manifestations and pawns of all major players, including the Gods? I'm not sure if you've read any Hegel but Kahiht is basically a direct rip from Hegel's World-Historical Individuals.
No, haven't read Hegel. Looked it up though, I can see how that makes it unclear but I'll hold with my statement.
I mean that he is a kind of potential Kahiht. He's potentially got a big role to play but he might fail or produce a major change that Yatwer doesn't want. She isn't the only one who can be immanent in events, after all - the world conspires.
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I don't dispute that he is Kahiht. Sorweel is an individual who will affect the histories; he would be Kahiht, in my opinion, simply by being the Horse-Lord of Sakarpus. It wouldn't have mattered if Yatwer decided to use him as a pawn. That's all my contention is. It doesn't matter who plays Sorweel so long as he is physically a part of the First Ring of events in the Great Chain (a la TJE metaphor; first wheel, I believe, in Esmenet's TDTCB metaphor) to be Kahiht.
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Okay. The wiki entry on W.H.I. paints them as agents of massive social disruption rather than just influential leaders.
But yeah, I was trying to differentiate Sorweel as distinct from the WLW in answer to your comment.
I feel like Porsporian, Psatma and the WLW have all pledged their souls to Yatwer, so she can use them precisely as pawns. They make the moves she wants.
Sure they make important moves, but neither the WLW or Psatma are historic individuals who would be attributed responsibility.
Sorweel OTOH is no mere pawn on the Benjuka plate (to extend the 'pieces' metaphor).
He's not particularly religious or pious but he does believe, so yeh, he's open to influence.
I think his role as Kahiht means he will retain his agency. That it signifies the immanence of the 'world-soul', rather than the petty machinations of the hundred.
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Lol.
That it signifies the immanence of the 'world-soul', rather than the petty machinations of the hundred.
Possible +1?
I think we're simply agreeing past each other but... what is W.H.I?
To the point, I think in Earwa Kahiht might suggest some powers beyond the average person - like you said because either the Gods, God, or the World Conspires (which I think might still be in line with Fate and the God but that's fodder for another day)...
But Kahiht is a distinction worth noting, even if it's mundane. They aren't just "influencial leaders" as you say, they are the fulcrums about which World-Events move. They are the nails of all collective action. They exist as much in our world as Earwa.
The King of Sakarpus was always going to be Kahiht because of the Chorae Hoard and Sakarpus being the last City of Man that they can use for supply to the Great Ordeal.
The Mandate Schoolman (or Anagogic Schoolman) who ran into Kellhus was always going to be Kahiht.
It's like Esmenet notes - it doesn't matter who sits around the fire with Kellhus, Proyas, and Cnaiur but they were a number of the chief movers during the First Holy War where, due to the subtle weave of social and cultural interaction, the real decisions are made as often by the fireside as they are in Council.
It remains to be seen if Bakker plays (and has been playing) further on this Kahiht notion, where the characters retain the same, or more, agency, as you say...
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Yeah, agreeing for the most part.
W.H.I. = world historic individuals.
Wiki uses examples like Napolean or Julius Ceasar, it implies one in a generation types.
These are the guys the whole world remembers (In Earwa I feel like that is going to be more literal).
I identify only Khellus and Sorweel as Kahiht, but that's probably just an arbitrary line because we do seem to be discussing the same thing otherwise.
Also feel like agency/free will is majorly important in that their choices determine the course of the historical changes for which they are responsible.
(I know that free will in Earwa isn't a popular concept because Bakker seems to deride the idea in reality on his blog, but the logos seems a pretty clear indication that he does attribute free will as a thing in this fiction).
Just a personal hunch, but if the outside is just some kind of persistent subjective reflection of reality then I can't see the hundred acting to do anything other than perpetuate the status quo.
So major change, progress or modernization has to be forced by Kahiht.
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If you have some time for yourself, the document is awesome - Hegel's Lectures on the Philosophy of History (http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/hi/) - but here's a quote to fuel both our fires.
I've long suspected from my academic readings that Hegel is featured heavily in TSA and in reviewing to respond to you I tend to think the Dunyain are a thing from Hegel's mind, as much as Bakker's. But Kahiht specifically - I'm also tending to favour your thought that Kahiht must be free to choose:
Caesar, in danger of losing a position, not perhaps at that time of superiority, yet at least of equality with the others who were at the head of the State, and of succumbing to those who were just on the point of becoming his enemies, — belongs essentially to this category. These enemies — who were at the same time pursuing their personal aims — had the form of the constitution, and the power conferred by an appearance of justice, on their side. Caesar was contending for the maintenance of his position, honour, and safety; and, since the power of his opponents included the sovereignty over the provinces of the Roman Empire, his victory secured for him the conquest of that entire Empire: and he thus became — though leaving the form of the constitution — the Autocrat of the State. That which secured for him the execution of a design, which in the first instance was of negative import — the Autocracy of Rome, — was, however, at the same time an independently necessary feature in the history of Rome and of the world. It was not, then, his private gain merely, but an unconscious impulse that occasioned the accomplishment of that for which the time was ripe. Such are all great historical men — whose own particular aims involve those large issues which are the will of the World-Spirit. They may be called Heroes, inasmuch as they have derived their purposes and their vocation, not from the calm, regular course of things, sanctioned by the existing order; but from a concealed fount — one which has not attained to phenomenal, present existence, — from that inner Spirit, still hidden beneath the surface, which, impinging on the outer world as on a shell, bursts it in pieces, because it is another kernel than that which belonged to the shell in question. They are men, therefore, who appear to draw the impulse of their life from themselves; and whose deeds have produced a condition of things and a complex of historical relations which appear to be only their interest, and their work.
§ 33
Such individuals had no consciousness of the general Idea they were unfolding, while prosecuting those aims of theirs; on the contrary, they were practical, political men. But at the same time they were thinking men, who had an insight into the requirements of the time — what was ripe for development. This was the very Truth for their age, for their world; the species next in order, so to speak, and which was already formed in the womb of time. It was theirs to know this nascent principle; the necessary, directly sequent step in progress, which their world was to take; to make this their aim, and to expend their energy in promoting it. World-historical men — the Heroes of an epoch — must, therefore, be recognised as it's clear-sighted ones; their deeds, their words are the best of that time. Great men have formed purposes to satisfy themselves, not others. Whatever prudent designs and counsels they might have learned from others, would be the more limited and inconsistent features in their career; for it was they who best understood affairs; from whom others learned, and approved, or at least acquiesced in their policy. For that Spirit which had taken this fresh step in history is the inmost soul of all individuals; but in a state of unconsciousness which the great men in question aroused. Their fellows, therefore, follow these soul-leaders; for they feel the irresistible power of their own inner Spirit thus embodied. If we go on to cast a look at the fate of these World-Historical persons, whose vocation it was to be the agents of the World-Spirit, — we shall find it to have been no happy one. They attained no calm enjoyment; their whole life was labour and trouble; their whole nature was nought else but their master-passion. When their object is attained they fall off like empty hulls from the kernel. They die early, like Alexander; they are murdered, like Caesar; transported to St. Helena., like Napoleon. This fearful consolation — that historical men have not enjoyed what is called happiness, and of which only private life (and this may be passed under very various external circumstances) is capable, — this consolation those may draw from history, who stand in need of it; and it is craved by Envy — vexed at what is great and transcendent, — striving, therefore, to depreciate it, and to find some flaw in it. Thus in modern times it has been demonstrated ad nauseam that princes are generally unhappy on their thrones; in consideration of which the possession of a throne is tolerated, and men acquiesce in the fact that not themselves but the personages in question are its occupants. The Free Man, we may observe, is not envious, but gladly recognises what is great and exalted, and rejoices that it exists.
Original italics.
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I've long suspected from my academic readings that Hegel is featured heavily in TSA
see thread, The Dialectic of Esmenet.
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I remember reading that thread. I didn't realize you thought a deeper read of Hegel pertained there as you somewhat focused a more central interpretation of his writings. The World-Spirit/World-Historical Individuals and manifesting spirit are kind of getting into the meat with him; the Dialectic of History can be looked over possibly, in specific senses like you've done, as much as it most definitely pertains to the stories at large and it's usually applied to broader socioculture and intellectual movements.
But after exams...
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Honestly? My Hegel familiarity is at best hazy memories of my first semester of college. What's funny is that I definitely was jotting down margin notes along the lines of 'this should be applied to fantasy, how do I use this?' when we were skimming over hegel. So I'm still unsure about that thread other than that it was causing mental bells to ding and flags to wave, so whatever overdetermination I was forcing on the texts is not something I'm rigidly committed too, in part because I have a sneaking suspicion of doubt that I got the philosophy/dialectics all wrong. still think the "from here to which kellhus" dialectic seems fairly portent, and mirrors the 'watcher watched kellhus' dialectic suggested in other parts of the text. or maybe that's watcher watched no god'
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I have some suspicions that the 'watcher/watched' concept might have more ancient roots.
And your argument might be sound. I don't think anyone has given it a fair chance. Though, simultaneous (meta)physical panpsychism might just be a little far-out for the nerdanels of most.
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I don't know if this is a re-tread or not, but... Crackpot time!
Sorweel is the new (metaphorical) Heron Spear. There's all that pesky business with storks (which are relatives of herons) and Sorweel is being placed (aimed?), so... yeah. Some literary mumbo jumbo is going on. Sorweel = Heron Spear.
This concludes the most useless post EVER. I am done. Farewell.
Until next time.
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I think I've made the most useless post ever before.
I also think that may be an original nerdanel.
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Sorweel = Heron Spear.
Some might call that Mantling (http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Mantling).
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Interesting.
from the wiki you posted:
Mantling is a process in the Elder Scrolls universe by which one entity becomes another entity by impersonating it. In most known or speculated instances of this process, the entity being mantled is a deity, while the person mantling is a mortal.
Merely impersonating someone publicly is not enough to mantle them. To mantle someone, you must become so like them that there ceases to be a functional difference between the two entities; it seems that at this point the universe itself ceases to distinguish between the two, and they become one entity.
It seems that while mantling does involve, to some extent, assuming some other entity's identity, this does not appear to necessarily involve giving up the mantler's own identity, at least in full.
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That's a pretty fucking rad theory.
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Pretty cool.
Hm.
Must compute ;).
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I don't know that Yatwer needs Sorwel to *kill* Kellhus, I'm thinking he's going to deliver that chorae at just the right moment to distract Kellhus just when the sword breaks. IDK. I'm still wondering if Kellhus hasn't fooled them all. I'm wondering if whatever it is that the Consult do to produce a synthese, Kellhus would be able to figure out and improve upon. Nerdaneling, now that I know what it means, Kellhus may be hanging out in a secret room in the Andiamine Heights surrounded by young gnostic sorcerers, producing a perfect replica in the north.
Diving headlong into crazy pet theories, this is what allows Kellhus to appear as a stork at Sakarpus and this same technique is what saved old moe back in TTT--Cnaiur only killed a dummy. The twist! Kellhus is not expecting Kelmomas to find his body, when Kel does, the WLW follows on his heels for the assasination. Incoherent ramblins.
EDIT: breaking up the text
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Haha thats an entertaining theory. If the WHite-Luck is supposed to kill Kellhus, he needs to get close enough, so perhaps he is already closer to him than we are lead to believe ;)
I am wondering how you would explain the destruction that Kellhus rains upon the sranc when he rescues the remaining Mandati towards the end of WLW?
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It's probably just an indefensible view, but I might hazard that we just have no scale to measure Kellhus on. I don't know if what he did killing all those sranc was impressive or not. Can you see the other dunyain smoking, hanging out in shades and black leather jackets, talking about killing one, no two, or maybe three million sranc with just a snap of the fingers if they had the gnosis?
For all we know, when he falls over in Esmi's arms after warping back is just more acting. Pretend vulnerability to better maintain possession of the empress (or deceive someone watching). Really looking forward to some awesome sorcery in UC. One problem with all this blather is that if Kellhus is so powerful he can just crack the world open whenever he likes, then why bother spending 20 years putting the holy war together. I have not a clue. I think many on here have talked about his need for believers in order to ascend to the outside, I can't think of anything better. Thought myself into a corner, I think.
EDIT: breaking up the text
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Can you see the other dunyain smoking, hanging out in shades and black leather jackets, talking about killing one, no two, or maybe three million sranc with just a snap of the fingers if they had the gnosis?
Choked on my coffee.
I have a question. If the White-Luck has existed the whole time, wouldn't it have touched Kellhus at certain moments?
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This brain is having trouble understanding the question!
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"The White-Luck, the idolaters believe, is that perfect line of action and happenstance that can see any outcome come to pass. The White-Luck Warrior is the man who walks that line. Everything that he needs, happens, not because he wills it but because his need is identical to what happens. Every step, every toss of the number-sticks, is a…" He turned back to the fierce glare of the Yatwerian Mother-Supreme.
"Is a what?" Fanayal demanded.
Meppa shrugged. "A gift."
Where luck is the twist of events relative to mortal hope, White-Luck is the twist of events relative to divine desire. To worship it is to simply will what happens as it happens.
—ARS SIBBUL, SIX ONTONOMIES
At some point in Kellhus journey he must certainly have been a "correspondence of cause" acting in concert with "that perfect line of action and happenstance that can see any outcome come to pass" "relative to divine desire."
I'm wondering if this is what happened with the Shrial Knights? Or anything else.
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Erm, I'm not sure I'm following--is it that Kellhus and WLW would have passed by each other when they were younger or that they will necessarily meet somewhere in Kellhus' future? I like the idea that they've already met THE WLW IS ANOTHER HALF BROTHER BORN OF OLD MOE AND A SANSORI WITCH
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Lol - the White-Luck and the Warrior are two separate things, mrganondorf ;).
I'm not suggesting that Kellhus has previously met the Warrior.
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OOOOOOHHHH. Makes sense now. That is interesting, is this a dunyain weakness? They have no idea when their own projects are snared in the gods' white luck? But I think I will muse some more about WLW and Kellhus. Maybe WLW was the last man to have Esmi before she went exclusive. BTW, is there a thread anywhere for Esmi's womb? Seems to be grand central station for all the powers of the universe--that's got to mean something!
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They have no idea when their own projects are snared in the gods' white luck?
Neat possibility, huh.
But I think I will muse some more about WLW and Kellhus. Maybe WLW was the last man to have Esmi before she went exclusive. BTW, is there a thread anywhere for Esmi's womb? Seems to be grand central station for all the powers of the universe--that's got to mean something!
Does the Warrior inevitable couple with Esmenet?
Lol, there is threads for Esmenet, Esmenet & Aurang, etc. Go to the home page of the forum and try searching Esmenet in the search ;).
But Serwa's Womb is the topic of interest... Kellhus is basically sending the Nonmen their best chance to interbreed.
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But Serwa's Womb is the topic of interest... Kellhus is basically sending the Nonmen their best chance to interbreed.
WOW.
sorweel won't like that
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Sorweel and Mimara have a chance at something approximating normal ;).
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Sorweel and Mimara have a chance at something approximating normal ;).
Only if approximately normal, in Bakkerverse, is an orphaned son getting with his father's killer's daughter who happens to be the most powerful Witch in Earwa, consummating their marriage in an alien species prison.
Seems normal to me.
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Sorweel and Mimara have a chance at something approximating normal ;).
Only if approximately normal, in Bakkerverse, is an orphaned son getting with his father's killer's daughter who happens to be the most powerful Witch in Earwa, consummating their marriage in an alien species prison.
Seems normal to me.
Hahaha--their kid will be named Billy, be good at math but not spelling, like baseball but be terrible at it, shy around girls because he makes their wombs into graves and stalks the earth making no friends since all are terrorized by his presence on the horizon. Does not like broccoli.
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Twist: WLW forces Esmi to marry him, becomes Aspect-Emperor, commits suicide.
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Sorweel and Mimara have a chance at something approximating normal ;).
Only if approximately normal, in Bakkerverse, is an orphaned son getting with his father's killer's daughter who happens to be the most powerful Witch in Earwa, consummating their marriage in an alien species prison.
Seems normal to me.
Mimara?
Lol, a month later...
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Lol well its WAY to late to go back and rework that. The joke is stand alone then, since it makes no sense otherwise. You could have just let this alone... sigh.
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I read the date after I posted :P.
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This from the beginning of ch 13 WLW:
"Gods are epochal beings, not quite alive. Since the Now eludes them, they are forever divided. Sometimes nothing blinds souls more profoundly than the apprehension of the Whole. Men need recall this when they pray.
--Ajencis, The Third Analytic of Men"
I feel dumb for not noticing this before, but rereading it makes me think Bakker is holding up a great big sign saying "maybe the white-luck warrior don't know shit."
Also, that bit about the 'now' evading the gods...it makes it sound like the gods are split into two: past and future. This would fit pretty well with Birth being the past of all reality and War (as in death) being the future of every soul.
Onkis is really just a minor deity hanging out in Yatwer's domain. Yatwer looks at time and sees it progressing from the past to the future. Gilgaol looks back on time, sees what leads up to the inevitable death of persons and nations.
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Not sure I follow you with the gods, but I agree with the WLW. Bakker set up 2 seemingly unstoppable forces, pure luck and pure intellect, and the clash will be spectacular. I strongly believe the God's biggest weakness is there blindness to their own limitations, and, so to does the WLW have the same delusions. I'm curious to see how the WLW reacts to Meppa/Puske. Can he see it? If yes, does it look like a God's manipulations or something else entirely?
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Tried to make the earlier post clearer, not sure if succeeded...
I know one way Kellhus can get rid of a WLW--get the gods to make another one and have them off each other! Have the WLW of Birth collide into the WLW of War and hope the universe doesn't collapse.
I have wondered if Zsoronga is a WLW. It would fit with the whole ignorance thing. Sorweel is the distraction. Sorweel is raised up so that he can bring Zsoronga into Kayutas' hub. Sorweel gets a magic pouch and chorae so he can give it to Zsoronga who could kill someone or fuck something up without even knowing it.
Let's say he wears that thing on his belt and happens upon Anasurimbor Kellhus at just the wrong moment--AK's wards collapse or something disastrous!
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Who better to thwart Yatwer's White Luck than Ajokli, the Trickster god?
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Ajokli would do it just for the lulz
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Ajokli would make a nice decoy too. We're all expecting hijinks from him (it?), so Onkis will be the one to surprise us all. Or, I can't remember the name, the god of diarrhea.
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Plague and disease. Was it burkiris or somethin like that? I think Soma made some artwork...
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Damn plague god took ol' Zin :(
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Damn plague god took ol' Zin :(
Is this the guy that ate up most of the Holy War? That will devour more of the Great Ordeal than the sranc? I guess it depends on if dehydration falls under illness or famine...
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Does anyone seriously think the WLW is the product of Cnaüir and his ummmm, love making to Yatwer so to speak? I know it's more of a running joke, but damn wouldn't that be awsome?
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Reading the Glossary last night. There is an entry (forgot the name sorry) about someone who dressed up as her husband the king to fool assassins, just that entry nothing else on her. I wonder if our own Aspect-Emperor has plans to fool the WLW.
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Does anyone seriously think the WLW is the product of Cnaüir and his ummmm, love making to Yatwer so to speak? I know it's more of a running joke, but damn wouldn't that be awsome?
Haha, no I don't think so. The WLW has a pretty clear lineage in one of his initial appearances. Something about poor quality bricks and rape... Wasn't one of his ancestors a Scylvendi?
Reading the Glossary last night. There is an entry (forgot the name sorry) about someone who dressed up as her husband the king to fool assassins, just that entry nothing else on her. I wonder if our own Aspect-Emperor has plans to fool the WLW.
Foreshadowing maybe ;), but I think the WLW would need more than a costume to fool him, however there is a chance that Kellhus is planning to use Esmenet to fool him in same way.
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I think I've written a post about this before, but, ibelive Kelmommas is gonna be the WLW's undoing. That's where I think his story line is going. I think Kellhus knows exactly what's up with Kelmommas and he's his tool and Esement is the bait.
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That sounds like a very good theory. "One cannot raise walls against what has been forgotten" comes to mind whenever I think about Inrilatas/Maithanet/Kelmomas, and then later Maithanet/WLW encounters. The WLW must be brought down by something that he cannot have forseen, which means to me, something that Yatwer herself is blind too, which I think could potentially be many things beyond the obvious Consult machinations.
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Does anyone seriously think the WLW is the product of Cnaüir and his ummmm, love making to Yatwer so to speak? I know it's more of a running joke, but damn wouldn't that be awsome?
Haha, no I don't think so. The WLW has a pretty clear lineage in one of his initial appearances. Something about poor quality bricks and rape... Wasn't one of his ancestors a Scylvendi?
Reading the Glossary last night. There is an entry (forgot the name sorry) about someone who dressed up as her husband the king to fool assassins, just that entry nothing else on her. I wonder if our own Aspect-Emperor has plans to fool the WLW.
Foreshadowing maybe ;), but I think the WLW would need more than a costume to fool him, however there is a chance that Kellhus is planning to use Esmenet to fool him in same way.
Yeah, but Kellhus might know what it is the gods see, or rather how they delineate between people, and then blind them to it. Just seemed weird to read of a "famous" female who was known for impersonating her husband to fool assassins. I imagine some thought was put into each entry.
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OK, so what I think happens is pretty simple. Kelmommas is infatuated with Esement. That's all he cares about is his moms love. And, the tunnels that Kellhus built where obviously built for a reason. Tada, those are Kelmommas's personal playground at the moment. All it would take is for the WLW to come to Esme's room to murder her, and Kelmommas be keeping an eye out for such a thing. You have to admit he's pretty handy with that skewer. And, its funny you mention Yatwer would have to be blind to it, he's already murdered Yatwer's head priestess.
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She was a faux-head though wasn't she? Out of favor at least. Still though, an interesting point.
I completely agree, the Andiamine Heights were not constructed that way just so that Kellhus could have some secret spying rooms. What need would he have to observe people in secret? None at all. It must have been for... something else.
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You're right she was just a figure head who was out of favor. Also, everyone believes Kelmommas to be missing. So, he might not even be a worry to Yatwer/WLW.
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I think I've written a post about this before, but, ibelive Kelmommas is gonna be the WLW's undoing. That's where I think his story line is going. I think Kellhus knows exactly what's up with Kelmommas and he's his tool and Esement is the bait.
or what about this: WLW is supposed to kill the 'emperor' so Kellhus abdicates after Kayutas dies and Kelmomas takes a broken blade in the heart? or he was supposed to but Kelmomas outwits his dad who always thinks he knows what is going on
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Something I've wondered is how would the WLW even get to Kellhus he's pretty far north at this point. I guess he can avoid the Sranc because of his ability to choose a perfect path it'still a long walk though.
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Something I've wondered is how would the WLW even get to Kellhus he's pretty far north at this point. I guess he can avoid the Sranc because of his ability to choose a perfect path it'still a long walk though.
hmm ... possibilities?
- WLW stabs K as K warps back
- WLW stabs someone else who succeeds K as emperor
- WLW stabs K after K and Great Ordeal return to the south
- WLW goes to K via [method]
- Nonman chariot flight
- Serwa or someone who can warp brings him
- Inchoroi/Synthese flight
- WLW learns gnosis, warps
- WLW gets magical device, warps
- WLW rides ship to north
- person declared as WLW is a decoy --> real WLW is already with Kellhus, maybe Zeumi Prince
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i hadn't thought of it, but gigaputty over at theforumthatshallnotbenamed conjectured that the WLW will kill the 'emperor' who is going to end up being Fanayal.
http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/135641-bakker-xli-redux-measure-is-still-unceasing-and-a-date-is-revealed-for-the-great-ordeal/&do=findComment&comment=7385468
i think it was Curethane that i first read here that pointed out that the emperor to be killed is not necessarily Kellhus. TWIST: Esmi gets an Inchoroi graft-job, announcers her (his) new imperial penis, is killed