The Second Apocalypse

Earwa => The No-God => Topic started by: TLEILAXU on September 03, 2017, 06:16:53 pm

Title: The Mutilated: A Census
Post by: TLEILAXU on September 03, 2017, 06:16:53 pm
The Mutilated <3
Title: Re: The Mutilated: A Census
Post by: TaoHorror on September 05, 2017, 05:41:25 pm
I think one of the "Mutilated" isn't badly hurt if I remember correctly. Just wondering how much of the damage they suffered effected their psychology ( maybe 1 is still sane - should we call them The Mutilated +1? ). It's understood they have minds like steel traps, but don't underestimate the effects of violent trauma, they're still human. And, as Bakker has pointed out, Kellhus made mistakes - the planet super-human now a common table seasoning. Could be 4 minds are stronger than 1, but it appeared he "out-classed" all 4 aggregately and still lost. While sporting extraordinary intellect, they are imperfect.

I digress ... agreed, POV from Moe leading Sylvendi with the TUC would apportion a nice POV for The Consult, if for no other reason I would like a roll call of The Consult. How many were there before Ishual, how many after and how many now, all with their race, age and skills/sorcery and techne manufacture, soul/soul-less. Its high time for a Consult census.
Title: Re: The Mutilated: A Census
Post by: Woden on September 05, 2017, 06:43:12 pm
Apparently they have unlimited sranc, even with the toll imposed by scalpers and ordealmen. I don't know how many they had before all of that started but maybe billions.
I wonder how many bashrag, dragons, skin-spies and erratics they have now.
Title: Re: The Mutilated: A Census
Post by: Madness on September 08, 2017, 02:40:31 am
I think one of the "Mutilated" isn't badly hurt if I remember correctly. Just wondering how much of the damage they suffered effected their psychology ( maybe 1 is still sane - should we call them The Mutilated +1? ). It's understood they have minds like steel traps, but don't underestimate the effects of violent trauma, they're still human. And, as Bakker has pointed out, Kellhus made mistakes - the planet super-human now a common table seasoning. Could be 4 minds are stronger than 1, but it appeared he "out-classed" all 4 aggregately and still lost. While sporting extraordinary intellect, they are imperfect.

If the Survivor is any kind of cipher for the Mutilated, we're in for a ride ;).

I digress ... agreed, POV from Moe leading Sylvendi with the TUC would apportion a nice POV for The Consult, if for no other reason I would like a roll call of The Consult. How many were there before Ishual, how many after and how many now, all with their race, age and skills/sorcery and techne manufacture, soul/soul-less. Its high time for a Consult census.

Apparently they have unlimited sranc, even with the toll imposed by scalpers and ordealmen. I don't know how many they had before all of that started but maybe billions.
I wonder how many bashrag, dragons, skin-spies and erratics do they have now.

Well, we can surmise that the Mutilated are responsible for the Tekne innovations by the Consult in TAE: Sayothi Skin-Spies, which is almost certainly a nod to Zeum being permeated as far back as TJE, the increase in Weapon-Race numbers, the Tekne-Nuke, the Carapace with no Chorae.

Also, at least one of the Mutilated is of the Few and it would seem a given that the Wracu will return.
Title: Re: The Mutilated: A Census
Post by: H on September 08, 2017, 11:51:00 am
Well, we can surmise that the Mutilated are responsible for the Tekne innovations by the Consult in TAE: Sayothi Skin-Spies, which is almost certainly a nod to Zeum being permeated as far back as TJE, the increase in Weapon-Race numbers, the Tekne-Nuke, the Carapace with no Chorae.

Perhaps the biggest questions are (to me), where is the Sun Lance (and Heron Spear) now?  Also, with the advances, did they circumvent the "time-limit" on the No-God?
Title: Re: The Mutilated: A Census
Post by: Madness on September 08, 2017, 03:31:49 pm
Well, we can surmise that the Mutilated are responsible for the Tekne innovations by the Consult in TAE: Sayothi Skin-Spies, which is almost certainly a nod to Zeum being permeated as far back as TJE, the increase in Weapon-Race numbers, the Tekne-Nuke, the Carapace with no Chorae.

Perhaps the biggest questions are (to me), where is the Sun Lance (and Heron Spear) now?  Also, with the advances, did they circumvent the "time-limit" on the No-God?

We should probably make a new thread, shouldn't we...
Title: Re: The Mutilated: A Census
Post by: Madness on September 08, 2017, 03:35:54 pm
And done. As we were 8).

Well, we can surmise that the Mutilated are responsible for the Tekne innovations by the Consult in TAE: Sayothi Skin-Spies, which is almost certainly a nod to Zeum being permeated as far back as TJE, the increase in Weapon-Race numbers, the Tekne-Nuke, the Carapace with no Chorae.

Perhaps the biggest questions are (to me), where is the Sun Lance (and Heron Spear) now?  Also, with the advances, did they circumvent the "time-limit" on the No-God?

Likely the Sun Lance is in the hands of the Horde, thus the Mutilated, functional or otherwise. Heron Spear is still MIA.

I'm still not convinced that the No-God 2.0 without Chorae was because Kellhus is of the Few - rather, I'm fairly sure that the reason that the OG No-God needed Chorae was to contain the soul within, in perpetuity. The Consult had forgotten enough of the Tekne to boot up the No-God properly and didn't seem to get the No-God working again before Shauriatas, as he was the most accomplished sorcerer of the group and macgyver'd a sorcerous duct-tape.

Honestly, I want more body horror from Bakker. Go full Silent-Hill, let's have some new Weapons-Races. And Battle-Synthese!
Title: Re: The Mutilated: A Census
Post by: TLEILAXU on September 09, 2017, 05:14:47 pm
What's the consensus on Shae living on in the Mutilated? I don't get why they'd say that Shae was "undone" if that was the case. Also, we definitely need some Mutilated POV in TNG and more weapon races indeed! I wonder if the Consult captured any of the whale-mothers. Would be cool to see what might be done with Dûnyain physiology and the Tekne combined.
Title: Re: The Mutilated: A Census
Post by: H on September 11, 2017, 02:25:35 pm
I'm still not convinced that the No-God 2.0 without Chorae was because Kellhus is of the Few - rather, I'm fairly sure that the reason that the OG No-God needed Chorae was to contain the soul within, in perpetuity. The Consult had forgotten enough of the Tekne to boot up the No-God properly and didn't seem to get the No-God working again before Shauriatas, as he was the most accomplished sorcerer of the group and macgyver'd a sorcerous duct-tape.

That is possible.  Bakker said the the No-God 1.0 had a time limit.  This is why it had to sally forth at some point, despite it's vulnerability to the (still missing) Heron Spear.  That's up in the air now with NG 2.0 though.

If it were possible to leave the Chorae in place, it would seem much more prudent to do so, making the Sarcophagus immune to sorcery though.  Since they were removed, it's plausible to think that it simply was deemed not possible.  Or, thought to not be possible.  I do think, in this case then, that the Chorae were removed for Kellhus' sake.  The N-G 1.0 worked with the Chorae in place, it just seems unlikely 2.0 could not function with them in place, aside the issue of salting Kellhus in the act of insertion.

Considering that they tried numerous different souls in the Sarcophagus with no success, with the Chorae in place, I don't think that has any real importance on if the soul will "boot it" or not.  The soul's particular character is what matters, nothing else, in my mind.
Title: Re: The Mutilated: A Census
Post by: Madness on September 13, 2017, 01:01:56 am
What's the consensus on Shae living on in the Mutilated? I don't get why they'd say that Shae was "undone" if that was the case.

I'll put forth again, as I did in the 15+ pages of speculation on the topic, that Shauriatas managed - probably with the help of the Dunyain - to upload himself to the Ark because I think it would fit further thematic exploration by Bakker.

However, I was totally against the Shauriatas subsumed the Mutilated until Somnambulist suggested that the Mutilated would have absolutely no defense against Cants of Compulsions (which is probably what Consult sorcerers would use to manipulate captured Dunyain).

Also, we definitely need some Mutilated POV in TNG and more weapon races indeed! I wonder if the Consult captured any of the whale-mothers. Would be cool to see what might be done with Dûnyain physiology and the Tekne combined.

I wanted with Kellhus and now still hope with the Mutilated that Bakker will go full Neuropath with it, body augmentations included. Basically, lay out his perceived horror of his transhumanism argument while our narrative heroes strive in vain against it.

That is possible.  Bakker said the the No-God 1.0 had a time limit.  This is why it had to sally forth at some point, despite it's vulnerability to the (still missing) Heron Spear.  That's up in the air now with NG 2.0 though.

If it were possible to leave the Chorae in place, it would seem much more prudent to do so, making the Sarcophagus immune to sorcery though.  Since they were removed, it's plausible to think that it simply was deemed not possible.  Or, thought to not be possible.  I do think, in this case then, that the Chorae were removed for Kellhus' sake.  The N-G 1.0 worked with the Chorae in place, it just seems unlikely 2.0 could not function with them in place, aside the issue of salting Kellhus in the act of insertion.

I get the thought about Kellhus' safety entering the Carapace, still not sure about it. I suppose it's nice that the Whirlwind has all the Chorae this time except what's... barely left in the south.
Title: Re: The Mutilated: A Census
Post by: Cynical Cat on September 17, 2017, 01:17:18 am
The Cants of Compulsion aren't going to save the Consult from being subsumed by the Mutilated.  The Consult is completely and utterly vulnerable to being subsumed by the Dunyain by its very nature of existence.  Once the captured Dunyain are shown the Inverse Fire and convert their formidable gifts are added to the cause.  From that point on its inevitable that they'll learn sorcery and form the dominate core of the Consult.  The only way to really avoid this is to capture them, interrogate them, and then kill them which requires arrogant half mad immortals to have 20-20 foresight and throw away the shiny new weapon that has fallen into their hands.

Also I don't believe the Sranc numbers have anything to do with the Mutilated.  Their numbers are huge, but they are drawn from huge expanses of territory occupied by creatures that exist low down on the food chain.  The combined casualties is still probably in the single digit millions, which is scary and impressive, but not unreasonable given the vast swath of territory under consideration.
Title: Re: The Mutilated: A Census
Post by: TaoHorror on September 17, 2017, 01:59:05 pm
Well, once the interrogation started ( interrogations work in both directions ), the Mutilated had them, cants or no cants. The mere fact they took prisoners means:

1) They underestimated them, simple as that – as any prison guard underestimates the captured rendered feeble. Also, as Bakker says, "humility" was not their strong suit, so could be as prisoners they were unconcerned of any threat they posed and thought themselves protected with their cants, maybe the arrogance of sorcery towards the unmarked – magic/technology trumps intellect. Or immortality lends to immaturity - Bakker surely doesn't imbue much wisdom to his gods in Earwa; just a bunch of fuckers feeding on the fat/souls of humanity. And the non-men go insane with immortality. Could be they were so outclassed intellectually to the point they didn't understand the danger they put themselves in by bringing them into their mists.

2) They wanted to recruit them - I hadn't thought of this, but this has some merit, I think. Could be they wanted to see if they were damned likewise and enlist them to their common cause once the Dunyain were "educated" on hell. The war on Ishual was impressive, quite the campaign taking what appeared to me in the text massive losses ( a 1,000 sorcerers/magi/shriekers? ) and wanted some of that logos stuff on their side. Seems like you’all are leaning in this direction, appears I need to do a re-read.
Title: Re: The Mutilated: A Census
Post by: SmilerLoki on September 17, 2017, 03:31:38 pm
On a related note, the numbers of singers that assaulted Ishual seem very suspect to me. The way Koringhus describes it, there were far more sorcerers than we see at Golgotterath, when the Consult fends off Kellhus and his - huge - army.
Title: Re: The Mutilated: A Census
Post by: TaoHorror on September 17, 2017, 04:28:21 pm
Good point, could be he lied/exaggerated. Bakker has said he doesn't let the reader in on when entities lie in the story. Either contextually we have to determine what is and isn't, otherwise we're misled either purposely or not.
Title: Re: The Mutilated: A Census
Post by: TLEILAXU on September 17, 2017, 04:43:07 pm
What's the consensus on Shae living on in the Mutilated? I don't get why they'd say that Shae was "undone" if that was the case.

I'll put forth again, as I did in the 15+ pages of speculation on the topic, that Shauriatas managed - probably with the help of the Dunyain - to upload himself to the Ark because I think it would fit further thematic exploration by Bakker.
The thing is, like, are there any indications for this? I've been back and forth on this topic in my mind. On one hand I can see why people might say that Shae is in the Mutilated. Their cyclic speech, "the truth spoke with but one soul", the weak spirit of the Dûnyain etc. On the other hand the "undone" comment really throws me off. I had this thought earlier, that he might've become a Ciphrang, but that makes even less sense...
Title: Re: The Mutilated: A Census
Post by: SmilerLoki on September 17, 2017, 05:00:26 pm
Good point, could be he lied/exaggerated. Bakker has said he doesn't let the reader in on when entities lie in the story. Either contextually we have to determine what is and isn't, otherwise we're misled either purposely or not.
He describes it inwardly, recounting his memories of the siege for himself.
Title: Re: The Mutilated: A Census
Post by: Sausuna on September 18, 2017, 07:40:49 pm
What's the consensus on Shae living on in the Mutilated? I don't get why they'd say that Shae was "undone" if that was the case.

I'll put forth again, as I did in the 15+ pages of speculation on the topic, that Shauriatas managed - probably with the help of the Dunyain - to upload himself to the Ark because I think it would fit further thematic exploration by Bakker.
The thing is, like, are there any indications for this? I've been back and forth on this topic in my mind. On one hand I can see why people might say that Shae is in the Mutilated. Their cyclic speech, "the truth spoke with but one soul", the weak spirit of the Dûnyain etc. On the other hand the "undone" comment really throws me off. I had this thought earlier, that he might've become a Ciphrang, but that makes even less sense...
Yeah, I don't know. The only way I can square it is if perhaps The Mutilated were themselves deceived in regards to Shae's death. And while unlikely, I think it might be possible. Seeing as they might have no way to understand the magics that might hide him within their own bodies/spirits. It lines up so well otherwise. Not online weak spirits, but the comment that his prior vessels were ones 'devoid of passion'.

I need to reread that section (probably could do so a lot, given how much is revealed around there). But I guess what I would finder odder would be Kellhus not mentioning it. But perhaps if he did notice, he might view it as a plus. Since Shae might ultimately undo or subsume his new Dunyain rivals.
Title: Re: The Mutilated: A Census
Post by: TaoHorror on September 18, 2017, 10:33:36 pm
Every time I think Bakker is going all Herbert, he doesn't. So I'm guessing Shae ain't "loaded" into the arch ( though, that would be fricken cool, for sure ) as that is a Herbert move ( ref: WorShip series ). I guess he kinda went Herbert with The Battle of Caraskand ( the whole thing about being driven to near death making them formidable, that which doesn't kill you makes you stronger, is a common theme in Herbert's stuff - The Fremen in Dune, The Dosadi Experiment ). That and the "philosophical" tidbits before each chapter rounds out the most I've seen of Herbert's influence in PON ( probably a thread somewhere discussion PON influences ).

Anyways, the long and short is I was hoping to see some Shae in TUC. Not because I like him, but TFS was so intriguing. So here's hoping the dude ain't gone.
Title: Re: The Mutilated: A Census
Post by: Madness on September 20, 2017, 07:09:46 pm
The Cants of Compulsion aren't going to save the Consult from being subsumed by the Mutilated.  The Consult is completely and utterly vulnerable to being subsumed by the Dunyain by its very nature of existence.  Once the captured Dunyain are shown the Inverse Fire and convert their formidable gifts are added to the cause.  From that point on its inevitable that they'll learn sorcery and form the dominate core of the Consult.  The only way to really avoid this is to capture them, interrogate them, and then kill them which requires arrogant half mad immortals to have 20-20 foresight and throw away the shiny new weapon that has fallen into their hands.

Honestly, I didn't like the idea that Shauriatas might have compelled the Mutilated at all at first but...

According to Koringhus, the Dunyain had no concept of sorcery the moment they witnessed it at Ishual. It was an immediate inversion of at least Koringhus' worldview, a prodigy among them. Given the lessons Aurang learned from not listening to Cnaiur and subsequently being bested by Kellhus in PON, much less whatever wariness the Consult might have gained from watching Kellhus' otherwise inexplicable rise, I'm fairly sure the Consult wouldn't take any chances with capturing Dunyain. Perhaps, for those Nonmen who might remember, there was an order to "Compel on sight."

Again though, I'm personally still dealing with the Mutilated sans thoughts of "possession" by Shauriatas.

Also I don't believe the Sranc numbers have anything to do with the Mutilated.  Their numbers are huge, but they are drawn from huge expanses of territory occupied by creatures that exist low down on the food chain.  The combined casualties is still probably in the single digit millions, which is scary and impressive, but not unreasonable given the vast swath of territory under consideration.

Agreed, I don't think the Mutilated would waste time producing more Sranc. But as mentioned, I think we safely attribute at least some of TAE's Tekne novelties to the Mutilated - the Sayothi Skin-Spy, perhaps the Ursranc, the Tekne-Nuke, etc.

2) They wanted to recruit them - I hadn't thought of this, but this has some merit, I think. Could be they wanted to see if they were damned likewise and enlist them to their common cause once the Dunyain were "educated" on hell. The war on Ishual was impressive, quite the campaign taking what appeared to me in the text massive losses ( a 1,000 sorcerers/magi/shriekers? ) and wanted some of that logos stuff on their side. Seems like you’all are leaning in this direction, appears I need to do a re-read.

Some of you'all, not this guy ;).

Perhaps that was the Consult's thought but as I said above I think that unlikely. Also, this raises more questions, given that the Mutilated sustained their mutilations somewhere. If torture than that's hardly a recruitment tactic as the Consult have the Inverse Fire. If capture during/after the Siege of Ishual, how did the Consult achieve that, if not Compulsion?

On a related note, the numbers of singers that assaulted Ishual seem very suspect to me. The way Koringhus describes it, there were far more sorcerers than we see at Golgotterath, when the Consult fends off Kellhus and his - huge - army.

It seems to me that that was the work of the Ishterebinth Quya, rather than the strictly Consult Erratics mulling around at Golgotterath.

The thing is, like, are there any indications for this? I've been back and forth on this topic in my mind. On one hand I can see why people might say that Shae is in the Mutilated. Their cyclic speech, "the truth spoke with but one soul", the weak spirit of the Dûnyain etc. On the other hand the "undone" comment really throws me off. I had this thought earlier, that he might've become a Ciphrang, but that makes even less sense...

Lol, I'd be the first to dismiss theories like Baby-Kellhus and Shauriatas-the-Mutilated. Too many moving parts, though Bakker has demonstrated proficiency in uniquely combining his sandbox, as per the Amiolas. The former has that "souls bounce" from Sarl and the latter has that "Sorcerous Compulsion" and "the Soul-Trapping-Sorceries."

For my bet, Bakker seem interested in contemporary commentary, in addition to the anachronistic, and critiquing the "Immortality-through-Upload-Salvation" seems like something he'd look to explore - especially in that the Earwan drive for immortality is almost as desperate as our own ;).

Yeah, I don't know. The only way I can square it is if perhaps The Mutilated were themselves deceived in regards to Shae's death. And while unlikely, I think it might be possible.

Or Shauriatas convinced them to help him upload his soul to the Ark. Or Compelled them to. Or Shauriatas used sorcery to make the Mutilated his new Ten-Wretch Sigil. Or any number of things ;).

Every time I think Bakker is going all Herbert, he doesn't. So I'm guessing Shae ain't "loaded" into the arch ( though, that would be fricken cool, for sure ) as that is a Herbert move ( ref: WorShip series ). I guess he kinda went Herbert with The Battle of Caraskand ( the whole thing about being driven to near death making them formidable, that which doesn't kill you makes you stronger, is a common theme in Herbert's stuff - The Fremen in Dune, The Dosadi Experiment ). That and the "philosophical" tidbits before each chapter rounds out the most I've seen of Herbert's influence in PON ( probably a thread somewhere discussion PON influences ).

Anyways, the long and short is I was hoping to see some Shae in TUC. Not because I like him, but TFS was so intriguing. So here's hoping the dude ain't gone.

Man after my own heart, Tao.

Sadly, Bakker was surprised by comparisons of Mimara's babies to Alia and Leto on the reddit AMA. I've long, long hoped that Mimara's child would be pre-born with the memories of Cu'jara Cinmoi and Nil'giccas :'(.
Title: Re: The Mutilated: A Census
Post by: SmilerLoki on September 20, 2017, 07:21:40 pm
It seems to me that that was the work of the Ishterebinth Quya, rather than the strictly Consult Erratics mulling around at Golgotterath.
Working so closely with Sranc? At least the Intact at Ishterebinth weren't that openly in bed with the Vile, and it seems unlikely they would miss the Erratics among them departing en masse to rendezvous with a Consult army and then take part in a multiple-year siege.
Title: Re: The Mutilated: A Census
Post by: Sausuna on September 20, 2017, 07:41:23 pm
Yeah, I don't know. The only way I can square it is if perhaps The Mutilated were themselves deceived in regards to Shae's death. And while unlikely, I think it might be possible.

Or Shauriatas convinced them to help him upload his soul to the Ark. Or Compelled them to. Or Shauriatas used sorcery to make the Mutilated his new Ten-Wretch Sigil. Or any number of things ;).
Well, I think it would have to be something that involved their lack of cooperation, otherwise I see no reason for their saying he had to be 'dealt with' or whatever word they use. Implies eliminated or something.
Title: Re: The Mutilated: A Census
Post by: H on September 20, 2017, 07:48:06 pm
Well, I think it would have to be something that involved their lack of cooperation, otherwise I see no reason for their saying he had to be 'dealt with' or whatever word they use. Implies eliminated or something.

"Undone" is the word they used.  "He was undone."
Title: Re: The Mutilated: A Census
Post by: Sausuna on September 20, 2017, 08:20:26 pm
Well, I think it would have to be something that involved their lack of cooperation, otherwise I see no reason for their saying he had to be 'dealt with' or whatever word they use. Implies eliminated or something.

"Undone" is the word they used.  "He was undone."
Much appreciated. Certainly they could have meant something else, but it really came off to me that he was dealt with in a non-amicable way. Though, they could have just meant 'neutralized', which wouldn't preclude him being within them if he can't do much beyond talk to them.
Title: Re: The Mutilated: A Census
Post by: Yellow on September 22, 2017, 06:44:16 am

Agreed, I don't think the Mutilated would waste time producing more Sranc. But as mentioned, I think we safely attribute at least some of TAE's Tekne novelties to the Mutilated - the Sayothi Skin-Spy, perhaps the Ursranc, the Tekne-Nuke, etc.


Can someone remind me who /what the Sayothi skin spy was, and why it may have something to do with the Mutilated? I don't remember it at all!
Title: Re: The Mutilated: A Census
Post by: TaoHorror on September 22, 2017, 12:46:02 pm
Undone
1. past participle of undo.

Undo
1. unfasten, untie, or loosen (something).
2. cancel or reverse the effects or results of
3. cause the downfall or ruin of

Think that last definition is the objective one to use. He was slain or banished or his leadership came to an end. I initially took it to mean he was killed, but the common usage of the word in America is the failure of a leader, doesn't mean they were assassinated or killed in civil war; undone has a more political meaning than a violent one, like his/her plans were undone, or his/her position was undone. But if that's the case, where the hell is he ( no pun intended )? I guess he could be "in" someone/someones or a skinspy somewhere.

It's not the second definition, that would mean the TNG pursuit would be abandoned and they would be on another course - to my understanding, the Mutilated has taking up the ancient Consult cause, but vied for control of The Consult.

But this is Bakker we're talking about, for all we know he was untied and floated away like a balloon.
Title: Re: The Mutilated: A Census
Post by: Duskweaver on September 22, 2017, 02:31:44 pm
I'm still not sure why everyone assumes the Mutilated were telling Kellhus the truth about Shauriatas, or indeed about anything else.

Like Kellhus' sword, Certainty is a weapon with two edges.
Title: Re: The Mutilated: A Census
Post by: Yellow on September 22, 2017, 02:43:25 pm
Fairly sure the Dunyain aren't able to lie to each other convincingly.
Title: Re: The Mutilated: A Census
Post by: TaoHorror on September 22, 2017, 02:51:25 pm
All true, anything can be anything - if they did lie to him, we didn't get a POV from Kel revealing as much. That said, misdirection/misunderstanding is the bread and butter of our scribe.
Title: Re: The Mutilated: A Census
Post by: Sausuna on September 22, 2017, 03:28:50 pm
I'm still not sure why everyone assumes the Mutilated were telling Kellhus the truth about Shauriatas, or indeed about anything else.

Like Kellhus' sword, Certainty is a weapon with two edges.
I don't see a compelling reason for them to lie about that fact. Certainly, it is possible they lied. But nothing seems strong enough to me. And this brings up the topic (which someone made a thread on before) about why they were trying to kill Kellhus before or even why they sought to use the hologram to make an image of Shauriatas.

Either way, I wouldn't doubt their statement until there is enough reason to.
Title: Re: The Mutilated: A Census
Post by: TLEILAXU on September 22, 2017, 03:36:57 pm
That's the conundrum. There's no reason for them to lie, but then Bakker sows questions about the fate of Shaeönanra. It's hard to imagine Shaeönanra duping the Mutilated when (some of) his faculties are supposed to be burning in Hell, so it seems we're left with either a willing possession or none at all.
Title: Re: The Mutilated: A Census
Post by: Sausuna on September 22, 2017, 04:02:47 pm
That's the conundrum. There's no reason for them to lie, but then Bakker sows questions about the fate of Shaeönanra. It's hard to imagine Shaeönanra duping the Mutilated when (some of) his faculties are supposed to be burning in Hell, so it seems we're left with either a willing possession or none at all.
Eh, I think a kind of back end unwilling possession is certainly in the realm of possibility. Dunyain makes mistakes, it seems especially where magic is concerned. Kellhus' father blinded himself pursuing making and ended up with the worst deal. Kellhus was possessed by a god. Perhaps The Mutilated, from their weak spirits and low passions, were the victim of some soul magic.

At this point, that seems more likely to me than lying.
Title: Re: The Mutilated: A Census
Post by: Madness on September 23, 2017, 02:03:09 am
Working so closely with Sranc? At least the Intact at Ishterebinth weren't that openly in bed with the Vile, and it seems unlikely they would miss the Erratics among them departing en masse to rendezvous with a Consult army and then take part in a multiple-year siege.

Truth. I'm just citing the line of speculation based on the text in TGO that says the Quya came from the West (Ishterebinth, assumptively) while the Sranc came from the East (driven by the Consult).

Maybe Nin'ciljiras could have concocted a reason for the Intact to war on a isolated clan of Men?

Well, I think it would have to be something that involved their lack of cooperation, otherwise I see no reason for their saying he had to be 'dealt with' or whatever word they use. Implies eliminated or something.

I'm still not sure why everyone assumes the Mutilated were telling Kellhus the truth about Shauriatas, or indeed about anything else.

Like Kellhus' sword, Certainty is a weapon with two edges.

Indeed. We have a couple threads dissecting Bakker's comments and Shauriatas' status but - excess imagination aside - knowing Bakker, I imagine he thinks there is something textually evident that is not as clear as he imagined it was (whether that's Shauriatas-Uploaded or Shauriatas-the-Mutilated, I don't really care to guess).

In my handful of conversations with him about ambiguity/clarity moments in TUC (of which there were far less than TGO) nothing about Shauriatas came up except for the Tekne-Glamour Shauriatas seed which sets up the No-God's Kellhus illusion at the end.

And the Mutilated were clearly happy to let the OG Consult deceive Kellhus - If they could, they would have let the Tekne-Glamour Shauriatas talk Kellhus into the Carapace without ever exposing themselves, no doubt.

Can someone remind me who /what the Sayothi skin spy was, and why it may have something to do with the Mutilated? I don't remember it at all!

In the opening chapters of TJE, the New Empire protocols on "Identifying Skin-Spies" yield a Sayothi Skin-Spy, which Esmenet has flayed before the masses to remind them of the Consult and Kellhus' Great Ordeal. Theliopa suggests that the Sayothi Skin-Spy is a novel Tekne invention (and we'll recall that the Consult were originally only able to produce the Skin-Spies after 1700 years or so of trial and error).

Thus, given the timeline and the end of TAE, we can assume Zeum is already infiltrated by Skin-Spies. I'm just curious as to whether or not Ciphrang-Malowebi will be able to detect them or not...

I don't see a compelling reason for them to lie about that fact. Certainly, it is possible they lied. But nothing seems strong enough to me. And this brings up the topic (which someone made a thread on before) about why they were trying to kill Kellhus before or even why they sought to use the hologram to make an image of Shauriatas.

Either way, I wouldn't doubt their statement until there is enough reason to.

I don't think they were ever trying to kill Kellhus. Decimate as much of the Ordeal as possible, for sure. But Kellhus was never in harm's way.

That's the conundrum. There's no reason for them to lie, but then Bakker sows questions about the fate of Shaeönanra. It's hard to imagine Shaeönanra duping the Mutilated when (some of) his faculties are supposed to be burning in Hell, so it seems we're left with either a willing possession or none at all.

I suppose we just don't know enough about how Soul-Trapping works, do we  :-\?
Title: Re: The Mutilated: A Census
Post by: SmilerLoki on September 23, 2017, 02:16:11 am
Maybe Nin'ciljiras could have concocted a reason for the Intact to war on a isolated clan of Men?
I just don't see Nonmen, considering the state they are in, caring about Men enough to go to war on them. They need something visceral to take action, like the Consult-Inchoroi or the prospect of damnation as seen in the Inverse Fire. That's not to say there can't be other reasons of similar magnitude for them.
Title: Re: The Mutilated: A Census
Post by: TheCulminatingApe on September 23, 2017, 09:03:17 pm
In the opening chapters of TJE, the New Empire protocols on "Identifying Skin-Spies" yield a Sayothi Skin-Spy, which Esmenet has flayed before the masses to remind them of the Consult and Kellhus' Great Ordeal. Theliopa suggests that the Sayothi Skin-Spy is a novel Tekne invention (and we'll recall that the Consult were originally only able to produce the Skin-Spies after 1700 years or so of trial and error).

Thus, given the timeline and the end of TAE, we can assume Zeum is already infiltrated by Skin-Spies. I'm just curious as to whether or not Ciphrang-Malowebi will be able to detect them or not...

But not overly relevant to the Three Seas, where there are very few Satyothi? 

I don't think much should be made of the Satyothi Skin-Spy - all it tells us is that the Consult have infiltrated Zeum in the same way they have infiltrated everywhere else
Title: Re: The Mutilated: A Census
Post by: TheCulminatingApe on September 23, 2017, 09:14:46 pm


I'm still not sure why everyone assumes the Mutilated were telling Kellhus the truth about Shauriatas, or indeed about anything else.

Like Kellhus' sword, Certainty is a weapon with two edges.

Indeed. We have a couple threads dissecting Bakker's comments and Shauriatas' status but - excess imagination aside - knowing Bakker, I imagine he thinks there is something textually evident that is not as clear as he imagined it was (whether that's Shauriatas-Uploaded or Shauriatas-the-Mutilated, I don't really care to guess).

In my handful of conversations with him about ambiguity/clarity moments in TUC (of which there were far less than TGO) nothing about Shauriatas came up except for the Tekne-Glamour Shauriatas seed which sets up the No-God's Kellhus illusion at the end.

And the Mutilated were clearly happy to let the OG Consult deceive Kellhus - If they could, they would have let the Tekne-Glamour Shauriatas talk Kellhus into the Carapace without ever exposing themselves, no doubt.

I don't see a compelling reason for them to lie about that fact. Certainly, it is possible they lied. But nothing seems strong enough to me. And this brings up the topic (which someone made a thread on before) about why they were trying to kill Kellhus before or even why they sought to use the hologram to make an image of Shauriatas.

Either way, I wouldn't doubt their statement until there is enough reason to.

I don't think they were ever trying to kill Kellhus. Decimate as much of the Ordeal as possible, for sure. But Kellhus was never in harm's way.

That's the conundrum. There's no reason for them to lie, but then Bakker sows questions about the fate of Shaeönanra. It's hard to imagine Shaeönanra duping the Mutilated when (some of) his faculties are supposed to be burning in Hell, so it seems we're left with either a willing possession or none at all.

I suppose we just don't know enough about how Soul-Trapping works, do we  :-\?

Undone
1. past participle of undo.

Undo
1. unfasten, untie, or loosen (something).
2. cancel or reverse the effects or results of
3. cause the downfall or ruin of

Think that last definition is the objective one to use. He was slain or banished or his leadership came to an end.

There's a line in TUC about Shauriatas being 'the spaces in between' (or something the that effect).  'Undone' could be read as TauHorror's first definition - he's been detached from the larvae - and attached to 'something else'.  What we know about him (super sorceror - exists beyond his physical body - can offer something new and different to non-men/ Inchoroi) suggests that is capable of surviving a lot of serious shit.
Title: Re: The Mutilated: A Census
Post by: TaoHorror on September 24, 2017, 12:01:09 am
Yes, I think seeing a commonality with our thoughts on this - Shae was simply too impressive to simply be gone by now. Seems he's gotta be somewhere. He was the architect of THE betrayal to mankind, something's up with this.
Title: Re: The Mutilated: A Census
Post by: Madness on September 25, 2017, 05:38:39 pm
I just don't see Nonmen, considering the state they are in, caring about Men enough to go to war on them. They need something visceral to take action, like the Consult-Inchoroi or the prospect of damnation as seen in the Inverse Fire. That's not to say there can't be other reasons of similar magnitude for them.

The Floating Court consists of a dozen Intact and countless others succumbing to the Dolour. They've accepted - tentatively until the Niom shakes things up - Nin'ciljiras, Vile ally, as their King. I can't say for certain that they wouldn't go fuck Ishual up on Nin'ciljiras' say so.

EDIT: Textually important, I believe Koringhus recalls the Nonmen Quya as coming from the West, while the Sranc hordes came from the East - suggesting Ishterebinth complicit.

But not overly relevant to the Three Seas, where there are very few Satyothi? 

I don't think much should be made of the Satyothi Skin-Spy - all it tells us is that the Consult have infiltrated Zeum in the same way they have infiltrated everywhere else

I'm only parroting Theliopa's conjecture that the Sayothi Skin-Spy is a novel innovation on the Tekne at the time of its discovery in TJE. Apparently, of all the Skin-Spies purged from the Kellian Empire, that was the first Sayothi version they found.

I would imagine though that if the Consult had already infiltrated Zeum as they had the Three-Seas before the Unification Wars that any Zeumi Skin-Spies (analogies of Istriya, Skeaos, Sarcellus, Chepheramunni) would have counseled more direct action against Kellhus - who the Consult knew as "Dunyain" since at least TWP/TTT.
Title: Re: The Mutilated: A Census
Post by: SmilerLoki on September 26, 2017, 07:32:21 am
EDIT: Textually important, I believe Koringhus recalls the Nonmen Quya as coming from the West, while the Sranc hordes came from the East - suggesting Ishterebinth complicit.
But Golgotterath is also to the West (North-West, to be specific) of Ishual.
Title: Re: The Mutilated: A Census
Post by: Madness on September 26, 2017, 04:09:06 pm
True enough. Either way.
Title: Re: The Mutilated: A Census
Post by: natanaj on April 10, 2018, 05:53:30 am
Guys the mutilated didn't so much take over the consult, as get promoted to a leadership position. The consult are fanatical about avoiding damnation, and probably recognized that the dunyain had the best minds to lead them.
Title: Re: The Mutilated: A Census
Post by: Wilshire on April 10, 2018, 04:20:19 pm
Guys the mutilated didn't so much take over the consult, as get promoted to a leadership position. The consult are fanatical about avoiding damnation, and probably recognized that the dunyain had the best minds to lead them.

That only really makes sense in the event that the original Consult are still there ... Which, as it stands, they are all pretty much dead. It seems terribly like the Dunyain killed the original Consult off - as they do with all their pawns once their usefulness ebbs.
Title: Re: The Mutilated: A Census
Post by: TLEILAXU on April 11, 2018, 07:45:38 pm
Guys the mutilated didn't so much take over the consult, as get promoted to a leadership position. The consult are fanatical about avoiding damnation, and probably recognized that the dunyain had the best minds to lead them.

That only really makes sense in the event that the original Consult are still there ... Which, as it stands, they are all pretty much dead. It seems terribly like the Dunyain killed the original Consult off - as they do with all their pawns once their usefulness ebbs.
But... they are there. Cet'ingira, Aurax, Aurang, all kinds of Nonmen erratics etc. Shaeönanra is the one missing for reasons that may still be fleshed out.