[TGO SPOILERS] Momemn

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Parsh

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« Reply #30 on: August 08, 2016, 03:01:44 am »
I had the thought that he left knowing that things would fall apart under Esmi, and used that as a lure for his enemies. So Fanayal comes out, the Yatwer cult, the Zeumi plotting, they all sense weakness and converge, allowing Kellhus to just make a quick trip back home after transforming Proyas into the leader the Ordeal needs by disillusioning him and sticking it in his butt, not to mention mostly saving the Ordeal from a nuke. He's got his enemies right where he wants them, without having to work so hard or wait around in Momemn.

At just the cost of Maithanet and Thelliopa, both of whom are a-list competent henchpersons. But hey, maybe now Esmi will think he does love her after all.

MSJ

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« Reply #31 on: August 08, 2016, 03:02:24 am »

I think when Kellhus asks Esmi what she has done--it's about Esmi's grudge against Kellhus.  She thinks that the gods have killed her kids because of their hate for Kellhus and then she deliberately keeps the narindar that killed Kellhus' brother.  I think Kellhus saw in her face that she wants to kill him. 

I think you're onto something here, MG, though Bakker could have been markedly less subtle about that, if accurate.

I think Mg is right on track. And, Kellhus would've been killed if not for Kelmommas.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Parsh

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« Reply #32 on: August 08, 2016, 03:11:05 am »
Quote
I think Mg is right on track. And, Kellhus would've been killed if not for Kelmommas.

Oh yeah, that was something else I wanted to touch on. It really does look like the White Luck was going to get Kellhus there. Kell was not, apparently, too smart or too powerful or two steps ahead. It sure looks like Kelmomas accidentally saved him. So how is it that little K, Special K, is able to thwart Yatwer and the White Luck? Ajokli--one god's influence against another's? There are definitely things up in the air when it comes to that little psychopath...

Madness

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« Reply #33 on: August 08, 2016, 02:31:19 pm »
Oh yeah, that was something else I wanted to touch on. It really does look like the White Luck was going to get Kellhus there. Kell was not, apparently, too smart or too powerful or two steps ahead. It sure looks like Kelmomas accidentally saved him. So how is it that little K, Special K, is able to thwart Yatwer and the White Luck? Ajokli--one god's influence against another's? There are definitely things up in the air when it comes to that little psychopath...

I know that we're touching on this conversation in multiple threads: to reiterate my own thoughts, Ajokli's Unerring Grace trumps the White-Luck of the other Gods.

What I think is important and has only been obliquely touched on so far in discussion is that our very first POV of Kelmomas is after his Whelming ceremony and the first thing he does is have that beetle moment in the Ajokli Godhouse.
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generic

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« Reply #34 on: August 08, 2016, 07:32:14 pm »
Why did he come back? Well if he cares the answer is easy. And if he genuinely wants the Ordeal to succeed. Just taking everything at face value he knows little about Golgotterath's capabilities. The nuke proves that he can not afford to bet everything on this one shot. So the empire still has value. And he jumps on the opportunity since he cares. That would be the reason that it's a good thing that not everyone can be saved.

Of course an alternative is that he went home to "burn the fields".
« Last Edit: August 08, 2016, 07:34:26 pm by generic »

mrganondorf

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« Reply #35 on: August 09, 2016, 05:22:24 pm »
It may be that Kellhus still thinks that the empire is expendable, but is keeping all of his options open.  The nuke at Dagliash, maybe made him think about the necessity of raising more Great Ordeals in the future.  It's take the Great Ordeal less than 1 year to reach Golgotterath right?  Maybe Kellhus plans to gather another force and send it north right after the upcoming winter.  The Great Ordeal gets reinforcements after fighting in the wastes.

Remember that part about how the nonsorcerers were just the vehicle for the schools?  LOL!  Now the common soldiers are going to be the schools' larders. 

MSJ

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« Reply #36 on: August 09, 2016, 09:55:05 pm »
Oh yeah, that was something else I wanted to touch on. It really does look like the White Luck was going to get Kellhus there. Kel
What I think is important and has only been obliquely touched on so far in discussion is that our very first POV of Kelmomas is after his Whelming ceremony and the first thing he does is have that beetle moment in the Ajokli Godhouse.

I think you're wrong here Madness. Kel/Ajokli/Beetle scene was while Kelmommas was waiting to go to his Whelming. Which would have implications in itself. If during the Whelming, Kellhus can see all that moves through Kel's soul, then he would know of the link between Kel and Ajokli.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2016, 09:57:16 pm by MSJ »
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Litgreg

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« Reply #37 on: August 17, 2016, 09:30:42 pm »

I think when Kellhus asks Esmi what she has done--it's about Esmi's grudge against Kellhus.  She thinks that the gods have killed her kids because of their hate for Kellhus and then she deliberately keeps the narindar that killed Kellhus' brother.  I think Kellhus saw in her face that she wants to kill him. 

I think you're onto something here, MG, though Bakker could have been markedly less subtle about that, if accurate.

I think Mg is right on track. And, Kellhus would've been killed if not for Kelmommas.

I read "let it happen" from Esmi as an entreaty to let the White Luck Warrior kill Kellhus, since she knew both were present. The loss of Thelli and the symbolic loss of Kel being the final straws.

Stop me if this has cropped up on another thread, but did anyone notice how the scene the WLW envisions for Kellhus' death changes between books? In WLW (the book), the Warrior envisions clashing swords with Kellhus, the notch in the former's blade causing the blade to shatter against Enshoiya and allowing the Warrior to slip past Kellhus's defense. But in this book, it's the already-broken sword (when did that happen?) being hurled across the room as Kellhus is distracted by his wife trying to kill him.

Seems like too big a change to be a continuity error, which suggests that the "set" future the WLW has "always" envisioned is either not so set after all, or that Kelmomas had already been inadvertantly changing details.

Hogman

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« Reply #38 on: August 19, 2016, 09:35:42 am »
I'm on my first listen-thru on the audio book. The first amazing thing  I heard was Meppa changed his face. Esmi for a second thing he is a skin spy before the water hits.
This has huge implications, because that means the cisharim could change their faces this whole time and would explain why the Consult wanted them destroy by the first holy war.

I've only read the books once, over five years ago (TGO aside), but I think the reason the Consult wanted to destroy the Cishaurim was explained. Moenghus was the first person able to identify skin spies. When he began unmasking them, the Consult, ignorant of the existence of the Dunyain, assumed that it was the Cishaurim who had the power to see through them. That's why they wanted to destroy them.

The Sharmat

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« Reply #39 on: August 19, 2016, 05:14:17 pm »
I think Meppa just did what Moenghus/Mallahet did in the first book. The face and voice was actually Fanayal being projected over him.

And I don't think Ajokli is the reason for Issiral's failure. The White-Luck-Warrior functions by being both inside and outside reality simultaneously. Samarmas meanwhile is...elsewhere. And Samarmas is the one that tells Kelmomas to cry out.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2016, 05:16:04 pm by The Sharmat »

Monkhound

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« Reply #40 on: August 21, 2016, 10:01:59 am »
Thanks for activating my account. I've been a fan since shortly after the release of TDTCB, but never got around to this place  :)

Maybe it's just me,  but did anyone else notice the first Decapitant was "activated" (for lack of a better word) very short after Saubon dies at Dagliash, and this might be the Daimotic aspect of the Exalt-General who had no issue with slaughtering thousands? We know he's damned from the last entries when he dies.
Based on all the "preparation" we see from Kellhus in the Aörsi/Dagliash chapters, and we know everything Kellhus does is calculated, I somehow expect the other Exalt-General to become the second one.

Also I remember an Anagogic spell "Meppa's Cataract" being mentioned somewhere during my recent re-read-through of the whole series. Does anyone remember what and where? I was reminded of that when Meppa unleashes the power of the Nile Psukhe on Kellhus/Malowebi.
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MSJ

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« Reply #41 on: August 21, 2016, 11:08:26 am »
Meppa Cataract was mentioned in TTT, during the battle of Shimeh.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Mog Kellhus

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« Reply #42 on: August 22, 2016, 02:49:49 pm »
Yes it's a Scarlet Spires spell and it killed Meppa'sfamily according to him.He took his name from that spell afterwards.

The Sharmat

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« Reply #43 on: August 22, 2016, 08:51:36 pm »
Now the question is if Cishaurim are normally allowed to have families. It's certainly different from other schools, but that would be far from the only difference.

Further...Meppa seems to have an unprecedented level of power. Even Kellhus expressed surprise. Is this the result of the raw depths of his grief and hatred, or something else?

Monkhound

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« Reply #44 on: August 22, 2016, 10:07:33 pm »
Now the question is if Cishaurim are normally allowed to have families. It's certainly different from other schools, but that would be far from the only difference.

Further...Meppa seems to have an unprecedented level of power. Even Kellhus expressed surprise. Is this the result of the raw depths of his grief and hatred, or something else?

We don't know that much about Meppa, as far as I can remember, but Esmenet seems to recognise him as a Primary and he is mentioned as such later on, which would put him at a considerable strength, even though Kellhus decimated the whole upper echelon of the Cishaurim at the Battle of Shimeh by himself.
The fact that Kellhus simply jumped into Malowebi's wards, suggests there is no surprise at Meppa's (Mark-less) surprise assault.

I'm not sure but I get the impression the surprise "Such Power..."(p. 447) by Kellhus is directed at the ease and power of Malowebi's warding Muzzu Chalice, rather than the demonstration of the Psukhe: The realization that Zeüm is a threat to be contained, rather than to be left in peace.
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