The Second Apocalypse
Earwa => The Aspect-Emperor => The Great Ordeal => Topic started by: MSJ on July 13, 2016, 11:20:47 pm
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ARC thread is here. (http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=1817.0)
First post:
Mimara, as other have said, has been coming into her own I TGO and I really enjoy it also. A place here to talk about all things Mimara. Some observations.
1. Koringhus ruminating on Mimara:
"Her every step Conditioned Ground.
She did not know this knowing, of course, which was what made it so much more remarkable...even miraculous. She bore an assurance that was not Her own- and how could it be? How could anything bottomless be owned, let alone fathomed, by a soul so infinite, so frail?"
While we could assume Kellhus conditions the ground, I think it's obvious the it's the God, as Akka was struck by the revelation that he walked with the God earlier. Mimara certainly seems to be the prophet, I wonder why the Consult chose to protect her? Could the Eye show that what they try to do is the right thing? Is assume that the same would be said of Kellhus then too. Kellhus just doesn't want the Vile to be the ones to do it, and I believe he would want to salvage as much as possible. Not reduce the population as a way to shut out the Gods.
2. I do think that Mimara is jumping to conclusions with Kellhus. Just as she did with Koringhus. After she forgives him and the Eye approves of the Zero, he reaches for the Absolute. Its why I said I don't believe the Eye is 100% reliable, as things do change.
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Mimara's arc is great in this story- some musings-
what I think is interesting is putting together the fact that, yes, she is a prophet, with Kelhus' proclamation that prophet's role is "To deliver the word of Men to the God." (122) Does this mean that Mimara is, in fact, "setting the frame" of morality in this world? With her every vision and judgement, she is building morality.
Will Mimara be the One/(no?) God?
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If she is a prophet the way Kellhus describes, TJE is showing God how the world is. Could be that no judgment truly exists until she looks upon you.
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Years and years ago someone, I want to attribute it to one of the names at Westeros, thought up something like this.
If I can I will find the post elucidating it, it was compelling.
I'm just real interested in what the Ordeal is going to do with another One True Prophet? (It's getting to be damned near-like Zealot around Earwa ;) .)
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Speaking of Mimara: Would she have survived by captured by the Scylvendi anyway? She had a skinspy who was charged with protecting her, which means the Consult knew of her, and needed her to finish her mission, whatever it is.
Also, the fact the Survior's Son, let's call him Anasurimbor Rocky, got away from an armed encampment of Scylvendi and a skinspy by throwing a freakin rock? Come on. Both of these people are important to the Consult and possibly the Gods.
The Skinspy must have got called off, they proved that they can hang in a sword fight with Dunyain and Sranc, but to be taken out by a rock thrown by a deformed kid don't add up.
Also, the Gods can't see the No God, but they can see the Consult, damned as they may be, thus Khellus' plans to destroy the No God (?) don't register with them. Hence, an organization that been around for thousands of years, hatred by damned individuals (The Mandate) that works to bring more souls to damnation (by killing them, seeing as how, like, one person in this whole tale isn't damned) may kind of like people who can stop a dude who may have become a god in his own right.
Speaking of the No God, not seeing, and damnation. Didn't Khellus use imagery of reaping and harvesting to Proyas? Are the Gods really feeding on the souls of everyone by damning them? Wouldn't that make Khellus' mission on line with the Consult? Man, the Gods are d bags.
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Speaking of Mimara: Would she have survived by captured by the Scylvendi anyway? She had a skinspy who was charged with protecting her, which means the Consult knew of her, and needed her to finish her mission, whatever it is.
I agree. Tsuor, the thing that was Soma, then Mimara, then Koll, recognized Mimara and molded itself seemingly just to show her to Aurang before switching to Koll to watch over her.
It would seem that the thing that was Serwe should have the same built-in capacity to "recognize" Mimara. (It may also be the same imperative that caused the Skin-Spies in the first Holy War to behave so oddly with Esmenet.)
Also, the fact the Survior's Son, let's call him Anasurimbor Rocky, got away from an armed encampment of Scylvendi and a skinspy by throwing a freakin rock? Come on. Both of these people are important to the Consult and possibly the Gods.
The Skinspy must have got called off, they proved that they can hang in a sword fight with Dunyain and Sranc, but to be taken out by a rock thrown by a deformed kid don't add up.
When did a Skin-Spy hold its own against a Dunyain? The only time I remember the Skin-Spies fighting Kellhus directly, even before he had sorcery, was in Caraskand and he killed a number of them without them getting so much as a strike against him.
Man, the Gods are d bags.
Seems likely - though, they're not really at fault for simply existing either, are they?
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"Hold their own" being a loose term, outside of Cnaiur for a short period of time, it seems the only combat rivals who are a real threat to Khellus have been skin spies, the Thing Called Sarcellus in the naked fight by the campfire comes to mind. That being said, Khellus is like an upside-down Mary Sue. Kind of wished the Survivor had...survived, and provided balance and threat to his god like power.
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"Hold their own" being a loose term, outside of Cnaiur for a short period of time, it seems the only combat rivals who are a real threat to Khellus have been skin spies, the Thing Called Sarcellus in the naked fight by the campfire comes to mind. That being said, Khellus is like an upside-down Mary Sue. Kind of wished the Survivor had...survived, and provided balance and threat to his god like power.
Lol - true. Gandoch.
It would have been cool if the Consult had sent some Skin-Spies against the Dunyain so we'd have reminiscence about fighting them from the Survivor.
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Mimara's arc is great in this story- some musings-
what I think is interesting is putting together the fact that, yes, she is a prophet, with Kelhus' proclamation that prophet's role is "To deliver the word of Men to the God." (122) Does this mean that Mimara is, in fact, "setting the frame" of morality in this world? With her every vision and judgement, she is building morality.
Will Mimara be the One/(no?) God?
Hi CondYoke! I agree--I really like Mimara's arc in TGO.
Only one thing to add--having twins (if Koringhus wasn't lying) means Mimara can go on being the Jugding Eye (with a stillborn child) AND have offspring. So that's got to be significant. I know that the characters in the books have discounted the possibility, but they don't know everything/have imperfect memories. Akka could be Mimara's dad and Mimara's kid could be inbred, I have no idea what the fuck that would mean in Earwan metaphysics.
The way Sorweel treats Serwa and Young Moe's sex as actual incest makes me wonder about the whole believing is being thing in Earwa. Kellhus demands that everyone believes that Moe is a real Anasurimbor and so he becomes one in a spiritual-objective sense. If Mimara believed hard enough that she really was Akka's daughter, then maybe she became his daughter, making the sex more significant. That is, the unborn twins could be inbred even if Akka isn't Mimara's biological father, maybe?
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Like to add a few observations from my reread. A lot of people have been pointing out that Kellhus as the No-God is hinted at through Proyas describing him as a whirlwind. Might be true, yet we see so many incidents like this through the entirety of the series. Akka at Mengedda asking questions in all caps like the No-God, Cnaüir asking himself the very same questions while with the skin spies on his way to Shimeh. There is something deeper here as if the No-God is connected to all souls in some manner. But, if I could take a guess who would go into the Carapace, it would be Mimara.
There are a few reasons and few new hints at this in TGO. And, quite frankly, H's speculation that she would answer the No-Gods question piqued my interest and had me looking for clues.
1) The most obvious is that the Consult protects her. She even remarks in TGO, "What would make a Skin Spy want to save her life? ". When the Synethse remarks on true and false prophecies, I believe Mimara is what they believe to be true.
2) It has to deal with the JE. Again, this is where the Synethse/SkinSpy convo is so important. The SS remarks that she is pregnant and that it can smell the fetus.
3) Mimara's dream in TGO.
She sways and topples through something like a dream , a tempest flashing on some nocturnal horizon.
Sounds like the whirlwind to me.
4) Another clue as to her import to the Consult in TGO.
She follows, hands upon her gold-scaled belly. The thing-called -Serwë concedes Achamian the lead, falls in beside her instead. Even though they are of a height, the skin-spy turns only to glance at her extended belly , nothing else. Mimara ponders the perversity of lolling caught in the jaws of events twenty-years dead.
I don't know if it's because of who Mimara is truly (who her father is?), or because of the baby/JE. But, the Consult wants her to reach Golgotterath. The Synethse even tells the SS to follow them, that they will take it home. And where are Mimara and Akka heading? Golgotterath. Serwe SS is upset with Cnaüir that he let them go. Or, maybe the Consult really believe she is a false prophecy and she is supposed to undo the No-God. If I was a betting man, I'd lay my money on her going in the Carapace and awakening/summoning the No-God.
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MSJ, you might be right--I'm thinking that if the Consult can trap Mimara in the Carapace, if she is the mortal vessel of Yatwer, that might be the Consult's mechanism for trapping Yatwer and stopping birth.
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MSJ, you might be right--I'm thinking that if the Consult can trap Mimara in the Carapace, if she is the mortal vessel of Yatwer, that might be the Consult's mechanism for trapping Yatwer and stopping birth.
MG, my thinking is more like this, during the FA, the No-God was fundamentaly flawed and still is. It cannot see, it's what holds him back. The true prophecy, Mimara in the Carapace with the JE will allow the No-God to see what exactly he is and ultimately could be the undoing of the No-God at the same time. Mimara answering the No-Gods questions while in the Carapace could lead to the collapse of the No-God. Harken, it's hinted that the Heron Spear is not want stopped the No-God. What if Leva was placed in the carapace and also had the JE and answered all those questions the No-God seeks and essentially ended him with the answers.
Now, I really like H's theory and won't discount it, I just have a feeling that the Consult needs Mimara, hence protecting her. Maybe Kellhus's way to destroy the No-God is through Mimara and the JE. I just think this is a great conversation and would love to hear others thoughts.
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On the Consult "protecting Mimara."
When Aurang speaks with Tsuor in WLW, the way he's wording it implies that Mimara is the subject of the "false" prophecy. Though, this doesn't jive with Aurang's earlier disparaging of the Celmomian prophecy when he muses on Anasurimbor Kellhus early in TWP.
Hmm...
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The prophecies have to be honored. Including the false. I think Mimara must have ties to something much older.
Mimara's arc is great in this story- some musings-
what I think is interesting is putting together the fact that, yes, she is a prophet, with Kelhus' proclamation that prophet's role is "To deliver the word of Men to the God." (122) Does this mean that Mimara is, in fact, "setting the frame" of morality in this world? With her every vision and judgement, she is building morality.
Will Mimara be the One/(no?) God?
One of my favorite crackpot theories was that Mimara actually is the moral center of the universe but her life is so shit she just tends to assume everyone is damned for the most arbitrary, crappy, Bronze Age reasons.
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The prophecies have to be honored. Including the false. I think Mimara must have ties to something much older.
Mimara's arc is great in this story- some musings-
what I think is interesting is putting together the fact that, yes, she is a prophet, with Kelhus' proclamation that prophet's role is "To deliver the word of Men to the God." (122) Does this mean that Mimara is, in fact, "setting the frame" of morality in this world? With her every vision and judgement, she is building morality.
Will Mimara be the One/(no?) God?
One of my favorite crackpot theories was that Mimara actually is the moral center of the universe but her life is so shit she just tends to assume everyone is damned for the most arbitrary, crappy, Bronze Age reasons.
Is this "The meek shall inherit the earth" taken to its extreme?
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I've seen theories put forth that Mimara and the eye is skewed based of her expreriences and biased. Yet, this cannot be true. When she looks at herself with the Eye, she is holy. Yet, she doesn't think she is and can't understand it. So, I'd say the Eye has no bearing on what Mimara thinks and is not based off of her world view.
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No one is that singular. She can loathe herself on a gut level while simultaneously seeing herself as the sole pure victimized individual in the universe. Pretty easily, actually. Even most teenagers manage that.
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No one is that singular. She can loathe herself on a gut level while simultaneously seeing herself as the sole pure victimized individual in the universe. Pretty easily, actually. Even most teenagers manage that.
I understand where you're coming from, but I don't think that's the case. Koringhus figures out what makes holy and it's a picture of Mimara's life. Hence her being holy.
And so it was with the Absolute. Surrender. Forfeiture . Loss … At last he understood what made these things holy. Loss was advantage. Blindness was insight, revelation. At last he could see it— the sideways step that gave lie to Logos. Zero. Zero made One.
Surrender. Mimara surrendered the moment she was sold to slavery. Loss. She lost eveything in her life, family, a chance at a real life and so much more, freedom and so on. Blindness. She is blind to what the JE was and therefore has no bearing on it. She is blind to the mechanisms of the world and so forth. All these things make her holy, not that she was the sole victimized sole in the universe. And when did she ever have that thought? That just seems like conjecture on your behalf, not textual evidence and I know how you feel about textual evidence.....
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Remember also the words of the survivor "Her strongest instinct is mercy." That might also play into her holiness, especially if all are one with the Absolute.
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Remember also the words of the survivor "Her strongest instinct is mercy." That might also play into her holiness, especially if all are one with the Absolute.
Indeed. And, when first reading that Mimara forgave Koringhus I thought, "Wow, Mimara really can forgive, imagine all the implications from this. She could forgive whole swaths of souls." I'm not so sure now, I think the Eye approved/forgave Koringhus because he came to understand what is holy and righteous. How to live, so to say. I truly do not believe that Mimara will be able to forgive any and all who she feels deserves another chance. But, her mercy and those who come to understand will be forgiven. So, probably not a whole lot. Truly, the more I think about it, I like H's theory that Mimara will gaze upon the No-God with the JE and answer it's questions and completely undo it.
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Even most teenagers manage that.
Lol.
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MSJ, you might be right--I'm thinking that if the Consult can trap Mimara in the Carapace, if she is the mortal vessel of Yatwer, that might be the Consult's mechanism for trapping Yatwer and stopping birth.
MG, my thinking is more like this, during the FA, the No-God was fundamentaly flawed and still is. It cannot see, it's what holds him back. The true prophecy, Mimara in the Carapace with the JE will allow the No-God to see what exactly he is and ultimately could be the undoing of the No-God at the same time. Mimara answering the No-Gods questions while in the Carapace could lead to the collapse of the No-God. Harken, it's hinted that the Heron Spear is not want stopped the No-God. What if Leva was placed in the carapace and also had the JE and answered all those questions the No-God seeks and essentially ended him with the answers.
Now, I really like H's theory and won't discount it, I just have a feeling that the Consult needs Mimara, hence protecting her. Maybe Kellhus's way to destroy the No-God is through Mimara and the JE. I just think this is a great conversation and would love to hear others thoughts.
MSJ, you might be right--I'm thinking that if the Consult can trap Mimara in the Carapace, if she is the mortal vessel of Yatwer, that might be the Consult's mechanism for trapping Yatwer and stopping birth.
MG, my thinking is more like this, during the FA, the No-God was fundamentaly flawed and still is. It cannot see, it's what holds him back. The true prophecy, Mimara in the Carapace with the JE will allow the No-God to see what exactly he is and ultimately could be the undoing of the No-God at the same time. Mimara answering the No-Gods questions while in the Carapace could lead to the collapse of the No-God. Harken, it's hinted that the Heron Spear is not want stopped the No-God. What if Leva was placed in the carapace and also had the JE and answered all those questions the No-God seeks and essentially ended him with the answers.
Now, I really like H's theory and won't discount it, I just have a feeling that the Consult needs Mimara, hence protecting her. Maybe Kellhus's way to destroy the No-God is through Mimara and the JE. I just think this is a great conversation and would love to hear others thoughts.
I don't know MSJ, it feels like the blindness is an essential part of what makes Mog Mog. What if the manufacture of 1 Mog unit involves finding someone with the Judging Eye and then 'blinding' it? Maybe not like gouging, maybe the Carapace is like a blindfold. Hmm, I wonder if it's the interior surface of the Carapace that is the real fancy part?
You know, if the Consult had made that thing out of Ark-Metal, I don't know that the Heron Spear or anything else would bust it up. Maybe that's what they'll do this time around.
Also wondering if Bakker is throwing us off with that comment (wherever it was) about the Consult collecting Mog's body after it was blasted with the HSpear. Maybe there were more than one persons in there. Maybe like a family. Some kind of ultra-atrocity going on
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Yea, I agree. I like H's idea that Mimara will answer the No-God's questions through the JE, this undoing it. Pretty badass.
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Yea, I agree. I like H's idea that Mimara will answer the No-God's questions through the JE, this undoing it. Pretty badass.
I hadn't even considered this. Nice one, H!
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I wonder if the Judging Eye can even see the No-God. The gods, after all, cannot perceive Mog-Pheru.
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I wonder if the Judging Eye can even see the No-God. The gods, after all, cannot perceive Mog-Pheru.
But the Judging Eye isn't a God. It is the cubit, the fundiment of the creation. If it is anything, it is the God of Gods. I don't think that will be an issue, but I'm open to being wrong.
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I wonder if the Judging Eye can even see the No-God. The gods, after all, cannot perceive Mog-Pheru.
But the Judging Eye isn't a God. It is the cubit, the fundiment of the creation. If it is anything, it is the God of Gods. I don't think that will be an issue, but I'm open to being wrong.
Is it? If it is sight from the vantage point of the gods then the No-God could be as invisible to it as it is to the Hundred. It will be interesting, one way or another.
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But the Judging Eye isn't a God. It is the cubit, the fundiment of the creation. If it is anything, it is the God of Gods. I don't think that will be an issue, but I'm open to being wrong.
Is it? If it is sight from the vantage point of the gods then the No-God could be as invisible to it as it is to the Hundred. It will be interesting, one way or another.
Well, if we are to believe Koringhus, it is different than the view from a God, because it is the view from the God. This is why it is the God of Gods. It is what precedes the Gods. What the Gods were divided from. What they are built from. This is why he surmises the Zero-God.
I'm inclined to believe him, at least in so far as that the Judging Eye is the view from Zero, from the Cubit, and that this puts it distinct from any of the Hundred. Indeed, this would be the view from the Solitary God, if I believed He was manifest (but I don't, He is a theoretical concept which doesn't yet exist, because the 100 are divided). As such, I don't think anything is outside of sight of The Judging Eye, which I think is one of the main points of why Mimara is so important.
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All souls connect to the Absolute and every man could feel the presence of the No-God but the Hundred were blind to Mog-Pheru. This is going to come down to exactly how the Judging Eye functions and how the No-God's powers operate. How can a being be sensed by every living man and blind the gods? How does that work if we're all connected to the Absolute? From exactly what vantage does the Judging Eye see and what does that mean about the nature of salvation and damnation? About the connection of the Hundred to the Absolute and who decrees damnation and salvation?
I think there's a couple more pieces of the puzzle to pick up.
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All souls connect to the Absolute and every man could feel the presence of the No-God but the Hundred were blind to Mog-Pheru. This is going to come down to exactly how the Judging Eye functions and how the No-God's powers operate. How can a being be sensed by every living man and blind the gods? How does that work if we're all connected to the Absolute? From exactly what vantage does the Judging Eye see and what does that mean about the nature of salvation and damnation? About the connection of the Hundred to the Absolute and who decrees damnation and salvation?
I think there's a couple more pieces of the puzzle to pick up.
Well, it could be (and I'm just making shit up here, I am no doubt wrong) that the No-God is actually "closer" to the Absolute than any of the Hundred. This could be because while each God is separate from The Absolute, the No-God is simply an inversion of the Absolute. There are no doubt a ton of gaps in here and I am not trying to make it seem like I have all the pieces of the puzzle, let alone put it together.
However, the Gods being apart from The Absolute (Zero-God, Solitary God, Cubit) makes sense that they hunger for damnation though, if we consider, as you say, all souls connect to the Absolute. If the Gods were cleft from the substance, or Being, or something, of the Absolute, then we might imagine they are attempting to reconcile with it, or are fueled by it? If a soul reaches the Absolute (salvation?), it is beyond the reach of any of the 100, i.e. not food for a God. However, if they are damned, they get caught by a God and are "food."
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Well, if we are to believe Koringhus, it is different than the view from a God, because it is the view from the God. This is why it is the God of Gods. It is what precedes the Gods. What the Gods were divided from. What they are built from. This is why he surmises the Zero-God.
Also it would fit the perfectly as the embodiment of The Darkness that Comes Before in the form of the head on a pole that only Kellhus could discover. As much is suggested in one of the Aörsi passages.