The Second Apocalypse
Earwa => The Aspect-Emperor => The Great Ordeal => Topic started by: themerchant on July 14, 2016, 07:28:32 pm
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Previous thread here (http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=1786.0).
No not that one,CNAIUR.
I'm not entirely sure how i feel about meeting one of my favourite characters of all time or that's he is more damned than Nil'giccas having lived about 1% of the time.
Not that I didn't think he would be damned mind you.
I see him maybe as the Gollum, almost like Ajokli. An Agency to himself and his hate. Not caring about the results of his actions. He just has mission now.
As they wonder themselves what does it mean for him and Akka to meet up thousands of miles away from home 20 years later on the eve of the apocalypse.
I'm glad he is alive since he is so damned.
[EDIT Madness]: For previous ARC thread link.
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Why more damned than Nil'giccas?
Smoking swazond, yes (badass as hell). But more damned?
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That's what Mimara said, Wilshire. She had seen Nil'giccas with the Judging Eye too for comparison. I forget which chapter, I think the penultimate Slog chapter in WLW, Mimara sees all of the Skin Eaters. The Eye knows.
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Why more damned than Nil'giccas?
Smoking swazond, yes (badass as hell). But more damned?
just check the quote on the covers you printed out :P
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(http://pre11.deviantart.net/bb39/th/pre/f/2016/186/5/3/final_tgopromo_4_by_spiralhorizon-da8u5ul.jpg)
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I had assumed she was lying to appease his ego.
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Ah, yes, that quote. Well, she has seen Ironsoul and Nil'giccas, so I assume that those are included in her comparison. I concede :)
Unfortunately, your question remains unanswered. My guess is it must have something to do with the swazond.
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I was just musing I don't really have a question, feck trying to guess what Cnaiur is going to do :P
His hate dwarves that of Ironsouls though. It's going to be a great reunion of everyone. Wonder if Sarl will appear.
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Seems fair. Cnaiur's got a big future in the afterlife as a Ciphang if y'all ask me.
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Well they think of him as a "hero" if Big Moe hadn't came and wrecked his head. So he might very well have a "strong soul".
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Still have about six chapters to go in my first official read but:
Well they think of him as a "hero" if Big Moe hadn't came and wrecked his head. So he might very well have a "strong soul".
This reflects Eskeles' breaking of the pottery to show how different "shards of the God of Gods" (the Ur-Soul) find expression in the world.
Aside, I really enjoy how as we read these books we perceive most, if not all, characters to be fallible in their understanding of the world due to their nature and nurture and then Bakker will retroactively validate something a character said or saw that the reader dismissed due to the person who said or saw it.
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Nil'Giccas had been a paragon of the Nonmen before falling to the dolour and becoming Cleric, most likely Mimara saw him as damned because of his mark and the treatment of the Emwama over hids thousands of years of life......the Breaker of Horses and Men, not such a great guy after being Dunyain mind fucked.
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Well, a hero of the Scylvendi is still going to heap themselves in damnation.
But yeah, I think Scott refers to the fate of people like Cnaiur in the Q&A;
As I think I mentioned in response to Locke's question on topos, the boundaries between the World and the Outside can also wear then with individuals, and not simply places. Those souls that are too strong to eat, that go on to become Ciphrang, sometimes begin the transition before they kick the bucket.
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I'd imagine there is more to the swazond that we don't know yet.
I find it incredibly interesting that Cnaiur gave Serwe one true swazond.
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I'd imagine there is more to the swazond that we don't know yet.
I find it incredibly interesting that Cnaiur gave Serwe one true swazond.
Me too. Bakker says Serwe is a cipher. I think it's more than her innocence. Most people just dismiss her, because of her fawning over Kellhus. I think everyone should try and see what makes her so important.
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I'd imagine there is more to the swazond that we don't know yet.
I find it incredibly interesting that Cnaiur gave Serwe one true swazond.
I just read that part today in my reread of the series, and what Cnaiur said about the Swazond to Serwe after marking her really jumped out at me this time: “The man you have killed is gone from the world, Serwë. He exists only here, a scar upon your arm. It is the mark of his absence, of all the ways his soul will not move, and all the acts he will not commit. A mark of the weight you now bear.”
Are the Scylvendi trying to deny the gods, whether it was once intentional or not, the souls they crave to feed on by marking the swazond? And if so, that might piss them off. And, as they say, none bear more swazonds then Cnaiur.
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Remember the Scylvendi worship the No-god. This theology makes a hell of a lot more sense if the gates to outside are closed.
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Isn't there a saying about the No-God along the lines of "the soul that encounters him goes no further?" That's remarkably similar to what Nayu says about Swazond.
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Yep. Has an entry in the Glossary, which might be significant in itself.
"A line from 'the Sagas' referring to the Battleplain and the belief that all those who perish there remain trapped."
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......the Breaker of Horses and Men, not such a great guy after being Dunyain mind fucked.
Cnaiür fit thematically into this book for that reason; he's the polar opposite of Anasûrimbor Koringhus in many regards. They both demonstrate how damnation relates to free will vs. determinism. Cnaiür was likely "born to damnation" due his culture, no matter what - but he wouldn't be damned to that extreme degree if Moenghus didn't enter his life.
Koringhus's story, by contrast, demonstrates that a form of "free will" does exist in Eärwa (which is absolutely a fatalistic universe, not deterministic). Koringhus was also born to damnation, like all Dûnyain, and was damned by the circumstances - by the facts of life that he couldn't control. But in the rare moments when he did have control, he made the righteous choice, such as saving his defective son from euthanasia. This, along with his epiphany of "All is One", leads to him finding the Absolute (the God of Gods) and being no longer damned.
Maybe things would've been different if Cnaiür had stumbled upon Mimara or found Taoism at an earlier point - but I really doubt it. His death-worshipping culture and violent temper would've damned him anyway, Moenghus or no.
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I laughed aloud at Cnaiir in TGO. He just loves the sound of his own voice. Lol give loves to give a barbaricly poetic mouthful of a paragraph to get his simple points across. He's a real dark comic also he says one great line when he slaps Akka. Something like "what do you think this is? A reunion of old friends?" Lmao cnaiir I see that age hasn't dulled that senses of humor you have.
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RSB's quote upthread makes it seem pretty clear that Nayu is literally part demon now, and I think he's described with the very word "demon" in that last chapter either by the narrator or by Mimara's point-of-view.
I feel like it was hinted at that Kosoter was demonic as well, but now it seems it's been made more explicit.
So what does this imply? Is Nayu's longevity related to this? Is he harder to send back to Hell now than he would have been before the Outside started to seep in?
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*Crackpot* Maybe Cnaiur is dead but Khellus brought him back?
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It's interesting having ended Moenghus that Cnaiur has now spent twenty years obsessing over murdering Kellhus.
I also think it's actually a little heavy-handed (or ham-fisted as Bakker might say) in TGO but the book itself reaffirms my view that Cnaiur basically the only true x-factor - after all, he was *so* unpredictable Kellhus, a Dunyain, couldn't anticipate him. Cnaiur seems to think he plays the Consult to use them as a vehicle so he can murder Anasurimbor Kellhus but they also clearly play him in that Cnaiur seems to have been promised a hand in destroying Ishual (which depending on the future narrative is missed gold - imagine if the Survivor recounting and memories of the Siege and Fall of Ishual had included one mad and scarred human fighting Dunyain amongst the Sranc).
Add to this, the smoking swazond, the most Damned soul... Cnaiur remains the crux of much narrative ambiguity.
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at the end they were the same person for Cnaiur, he struggled to delineate between them.
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There is a quote in TTT, something akin to "when did the son become the father" in terms of Cnaiur deciding who he was more obsessed with killing.
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Off the wall idea: could Cnaiur be a skin spy? Not saying I believe it, but it seems skin spies have gone rogue in the past.
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Off the wall idea: could Cnaiur be a skin spy? Not saying I believe it, but it seems skin spies have gone rogue in the past.
Only if by that you mean that before we ever met him he was a skin-spy. if so, then yeah he could be in the same way that everyone could be a rouge skin-spy :P. I don't think there is any reason to suspect that he is. Is there?
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I don't think Cnaiur can be a skin spy, actually. Mimara saw his crimes with the Judging Eye, which implies that he has a soul, which implies that he is not a skin spy. Unless Mimara lied, or she can actually see skin spies as damned (could she see Soma?).
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Oh right, forgot about Mimara. I feel like she would have known if he was a skin-spy, soul or otherwise.
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I hope we get to hear more of his rants. He always thinks one thought too many, who provides thoughts? Onkis.
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It's interesting having ended Moenghus that Cnaiur has now spent twenty years obsessing over murdering Kellhus.
I also think it's actually a little heavy-handed (or ham-fisted as Bakker might say) in TGO but the book itself reaffirms my view that Cnaiur basically the only true x-factor - after all, he was *so* unpredictable Kellhus, a Dunyain, couldn't anticipate him. Cnaiur seems to think he plays the Consult to use them as a vehicle so he can murder Anasurimbor Kellhus but they also clearly play him in that Cnaiur seems to have been promised a hand in destroying Ishual (which depending on the future narrative is missed gold - imagine if the Survivor recounting and memories of the Siege and Fall of Ishual had included one mad and scarred human fighting Dunyain amongst the Sranc).
Add to this, the smoking swazond, the most Damned soul... Cnaiur remains the crux of much narrative ambiguity.
Wasn't Cnaüir suprised when he heard that Ishüal had been destroyed? I agree that Cnaüir is using the Consult as his means to kill Kellhus, and that Kellhus has become just as much, if not more of an obsession to Cnaüir. That being said, Cnaüir would stand a chance at killing Kellhus. We learned that very early on in PoN. I know not many will agree with me, but I think Bakker might be set to g Cnaüir up for a bit of a redemptive arc. Also, as always, he has some great lines in this book. Like the one when he slaps All a and says something along the lines of, "This isn't a gathering of old friends, sorcerer.".
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It seems most of what the Consult knows of the Dunyain is from Cnaiur. They figured it out early on that he was the one who could shed the most light on this unforeseen threat. Him being a Scylevendi must have been a miracle to them: an insane genius, with first hand knowledge to the only two known Dunyain in he world, who also worships the dead No-God. Sounds almost too good to be true. But, just as Khellhus' power grew over 20 years, Cnaiur's madness surely grew. A generation of Scylevendi were lost 20 years ago, so those who follows Cnaiur follow him alone, as the one surviving voice who warned of the disaster at Keyuth (sp).
Will the final battle at Golgotteroth be between Scylvendi horsemen and the half-Sranc remnants of The Great Ordeal (at what point does the Meat turn them toward the No God?)?
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Wasn't Cnaüir suprised when he heard that Ishüal had been destroyed?
I thought so. I thought it implied that Cnaiur's decision to impart knowledge to the Consult or, you know, gather the Scylvendi en masse for them was predicated on his being a part of the Sack of Ishual.
Will the final battle at Golgotteroth be between Scylvendi horsemen and the half-Sranc remnants of The Great Ordeal (at what point does the Meat turn them toward the No God?)?
Bakker's big on arcs, especially multi-book volume arcs (which really are just arcs from imagined single books). I'd formerly have suggested that we could rely on TWP as a narrative analogue to TAE, as well as TTT mirroring TUC, but with the latest revelation regarding TSTSNBN in the Author Q&A I'll just use TTT/TUC for now.
As per the pieces set in TUC, is Cnaiur the Consult's savior or the Ordeal's? Is he to be the Conphas analogue, the spear in the back of the Ordeal, or the Saubon analogue, the sword which saves the Ordeal from certain destruction? (As arguably Saubon killing Conphas and reclaiming the Zaudunyani Nansur and Imperial Saik is what allows the Holy War to prevail long enough for Kellhus to save the day at Shimeh.)
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Is there a difference between the Consults's savior or the Ordeal's? At what point does one side start working for the other's
Khellus must have figure that the logistics of the Great Ordeal would fail (he lived through the desert), and they would eat Sranc. His Imperial Bounty was two-fold: clear the immediate area of Sranc, while determining what effects long term effects of fighting and living in Sranc territory. Thus, he realized the GO would get as far as the nuke to destroy the horde.
At which point he gave up the GO, rallied the Zayumi to arms (by probably killing their king, and launching a war against the Three Seas), then having the Scylendi destroy the GO, as they turned against the Gods under the command of a man who now hates Khellus (rape tends to turn folks against the rapist).
Then, Khellus can teleport in to Golgotteroth, let the world burn, and gain salvation Either through the Gods or because the world will be destroyed.
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Is there a difference between the Consults's savior or the Ordeal's? At what point does one side start working for the other's
This is kind of why Proyas is a poor man's Martemus stand-in right now. Readers seem to forget that there are just normal people in Earwa who wouldn't mind going back to tilling their farm and trying to live a "good life."
Proyas has been broken by Kellhus as Cnaiur was by Moenghus - dissimilar methods, similar outcomes. But Kellhus hasn't yet countermanded the underlying objective. In Proyas' mind, no matter what he's suffered, he's still supposed to be "warring against Golgotterath."
That said, I've maintained for years that Kellhus would still want to master the Tekne and I can envision a TUC which mirrors TTT in that the Ordeal fights at Golgotterath while Kellhus has a rather dramatic conversation with the Consult in the Ark.