[H]

I'd liken the IF as something of a mirror.  What it shows you is true, but it doesn't preclude that what it shows you is immutable. The thing about the Consult is that they, rather than change themselves, demand the world change.

[SmilerLoki]

I'd liken the IF as something of a mirror.  What it shows you is true, but it doesn't preclude that what it shows you is immutable. The thing about the Consult is that they, rather than change themselves, demand the world change.

I like this comparison.

Myself, I think more along the lines of trying to comprehend what you don't yet understand (and maybe aren't equipped to understand) and using out of context instruments for that to reign in your terror of the unknown. But the instruments themselves create context (because the instruments are known), which agitates those in fear to act. It's akin to first humans seeing lightning and, for their lack of better tools, creating gods to govern that lightning. But gods are understandable, they're similar to people who created them, so they like stuff and food, and attention, thus demanding worship.

In this same way the Inverse Fire absolves of any atrocity committed on the quest to avoid eternal torment, which is what the Inverse Fire shows.

[SmilerLoki]

In this same way the Inverse Fire absolves of any atrocity committed on the quest to avoid eternal torment, which is what the Inverse Fire shows.

Come to think of it, the only way to corroborate what the Inverse Fire shows is to stage another, differently structured experiment. And here there is Kellhus, who walked the Outside by means of Daimos before looking into the Inverse Fire.

Take what you will from that, as they say.

[Wilshire]

It's about incomprehensibility, or the complete inability to relate to something you have no point of reference to comprehend at the time. From what I understand, Bakker is big on the latter concept.

The question about the Inverse Fire is how convincing is it. And it seems to be very convincing.

That's a fair assessment.

The thing about the Consult is that they, rather than change themselves, demand the world change.

I like this comparison.

Me too, that's great.

In this same way the Inverse Fire absolves of any atrocity committed on the quest to avoid eternal torment, which is what the Inverse Fire shows.

Come to think of it, the only way to corroborate what the Inverse Fire shows is to stage another, differently structured experiment. And here there is Kellhus, who walked the Outside be means of Daimos before looking into the Inverse Fire.

Take what you will from that, as they say.

He certainly saw something different in the IF than anyone else, that's for sure.
Hopefully some of the Daimoti survived. They should have been near the back line of attackers, not needing to be particularly close to do their summoning, and therefore at the best vantage for escape.

Maybe they will be able to provide us with another source of information on the nature of the outside.

[Dora Vee]

I'd liken the IF as something of a mirror.  What it shows you is true, but it doesn't preclude that what it shows you is immutable. The thing about the Consult is that they, rather than change themselves, demand the world change.

Honestly, given how that world IS, I can't say I blame them. The problem is that they are quite predatory to say the least.

[H]

Honestly, given how that world IS, I can't say I blame them. The problem is that they are quite predatory to say the least.

Wolves don't really care much about what sheep think.

That's how they see things, for better or (usually) worse.  It certainly depends on if you are a wolf or a sheep though...

[Dora Vee]

I doubt it's just wolves who want changes in the world and really, wolves are awesome, noble animals. Consult does not qualify. Maybe predatory wasn't the right word. 

Animal predators are not actually malicious and prey can be dangerous in their own right. Just ask pythons who get kicked to death by cute bunnies and big enough rats.

Anyway, I guess being a dragon isn't an option? It didn't seem to work out for Proyas.

No one I know of wants to be a sheep. And most people on Earwa don't either.

[H]

I doubt it's just wolves who want changes in the world and really, wolves are awesome, noble animals. Consult does not qualify. Maybe predatory wasn't the right word. 

Animal predators are not actually malicious and prey can be dangerous in their own right. Just ask pythons who get kicked to death by cute bunnies and big enough rats.

Anyway, I guess being a dragon isn't an option? It didn't seem to work out for Proyas.

No one I know of wants to be a sheep. And most people on Earwa don't either.

Well, it's predatory in a way. Consider, you can think of a predator eating prey as it's survival comes at the cost of the well-being of the prey.

The Consult's salvation comes as the expense of everyone else's lives.

It's not the best analogy, but I don't think it's too off base...

[TaoHorror]

I find this to be one of the more interesting conundrums of the read. Are The Consult evil since they didn't pursue saving themselves directly or are they not at fault for the effects of the IR driving them to pursue any solution that they think could work? Seems much easier to change yourself, but something must be blocking that avenue ( the gods don't ever forgive? ). Even if not for moral considerations, the act of self change is massively more efficient ( the shortest path? ) than murdering 75 million people - even with TNG at the helm, that is one long fucking path to take, and the damn thing may have a timer to boot? Still seems implausibly impossible to pull off, could even still be so with nukes. We survived a ( forget the exact term ) mega volcanic eruption 60,000 years ago which was considered virtually impossible to survive, but we did it because we were, well, everywhere.

[H]

Well, the Consult certainly could try to change themselves, but it isn't a sure bet.  And there isn't going to be a do-over, so there isn't any real incentive for the Consult to "experiment" with solutions to the soul-problem.  Kellhus probably did figure a "way around" the problem, but he also intuited the meta-Gnosis, so while Shae sure was clever, he simply isn't on the same level.

Also, consider that Aurang "changing his ways" is probably impossible, considering the corner he painting himself into with all those Grafts.  That does preclude that a Inchoroi was capable of "reforming" itself at all, which might simply be a biological impossibility.  They were made specifically to "heap damnation on themselves" so a peaceful Inchoroi would probably be akin to a vegetarian lion.

[TaoHorror]

All true ... but think of it, there was that skin-spy hanging around Mimara - they could've invited her over for tea and she could've let them go through iterations of salvation ( as the Survivor did ) until they went green before embarking on Apocalypse ... you're probably right, nothing they could do, but worth a try given their gargantuan task at breaking the soul chain - they couldn't have known for sure they were going to fail given they're all dead now save Aurax ... take it all of the Inchoroi are still screaming as I type this ... but you see my point, lighting up an Apocalypse has significant risks in that the world may respond/thwart you ... as indeed we did ... up next to receive "the response" are the rest of The Consult/Dunsult ... good luck to them. While humans have short lives and live "hot", we're resourceful/clever/creative when we need to be.

[MSJ]

 

... but you see my point, lighting up an Apocalypse has significant risks in that the world may respond/thwart you ... as indeed we did ... up next to receive "the response" are the rest of The Consult/Dunsult ... good luck to them. While humans have short lives and live "hot", we're resourceful/clever/creative when we need to be

Exactly. And is my exact reason for bringing up the population of Eanna and the southern continent on the map. Plus, the fact that Bakker says he will never fill in the rest of the map. I don't think The NG can reduce Earwa(The actual planet as a whole whatever its called, Earwa is just a continent...or country) to 144, 000.

Its why I believe the dream where the Her on Spear doesn't kill the NG and it just putters out. A timer? An agent of the God....aka Mimara? Earwa isn't the planet, and sorcery and the gods certainly exist in Eanna, why not the other continent/s? It truly is the longest path, and one I don't see coming to fruition. As Kellhus was blindsided in TUC, so will the Dunsult in TNG.

By the way, great thread, great conversation.

[TaoHorror]

As Kellhus was blindsided in TUC, so will the Dunsult in TNG.

Yes, I think I've been thinking about this all wrong - the whole TNG and Consult has been terrifying to read in the books, but from a historical perspective, The Inchoroi have been a disaster unto themselves from the get go. First they crash land ( and it is THE crash of all landings, breaking all their shit ), lose a fight with the non-men even though they sport significant technological superiority, run back to the Ark and hide, sue for peace ( and fuck that up ), get their ass kicked again by the non-men, the remaining team up with some Quya and human sorcerers and wage an impressively evil campaign throughout the North with TNG chilling in the background, finally TNG shows up and gets taken out by the Inchoroi's own weapon, the rest get chased away and hide for 2,000 years, with the only thing to show for it is to lose several battles on their own turf that they should've won sporting a nuke! Maybe come up with some additional defenses beyond the ants go marching on horde of shranc ( appears all they learned from their 2,000 years of spying was the difference between true and false prophesies ). Then Aurang gets kicked off the balcony like he was a kitten, have a single human waltz on into the "golden room", fuck the goad, only to find out other humans ( as prisoners ) took over the whole shebang. Not the impressive campaign after all - the only truly terrifying things have been infinite shranc ( who are blasted by the thousands by common sorcery ), some tougher beasts ( who fail to overrun a depleted/hungry/fucked up human army ) and the womb plague ( for which I concede is some scary shit ). Aside from "the first apocalypse" which did eradicate the entire North ( with the help of other humans, wouldn't have happened otherwise, Aurang/Aurax still masturbating all these years, the one thing they seemed to have mastered - one could argue it was near purely a human war with some non-men in the mix ), they've been the big loser up til now. By the numbers, Kellhus inflicted more misery on TGO than Golgotterath, so now with him out of the way, maybe Earwa can get some peace and quite ( bit of humor there ... no more babies crying ... oh, forget it ). Point is, our expectations have been thwarted at every turn - so here we're crying in our beers over the ending of TUC only to discover in the next books humans will rise ...

[Dora Vee]

When it comes to predation, I remember that the Inchoroi have no choice, just like animals don't. People like Shae and other human Consult members did. Honestly, I can't say I blame them. They likely believe that changing their ways will accomplish nothing. Cynics, if you will.

Oftentimes, I think #TeamConsult. Now? I might as well join the Consult now that Proyas is gone.

so here we're crying in our beers over the ending of TUC only to discover in the next books humans will rise ...

IMO? Too little, too late.

[TaoHorror]

IMO? Too little, too late.

Why so? Just because humans got kicked in the ass with the failure of TGO? Earth history has yielded worse horrors than Earwa, albeit not cosmic. Don't ever give up.