The Harbinger

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The Sharmat

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« on: February 02, 2015, 05:41:28 am »
I just thought of something that I think I'd like to share. Suspicion: Kellhus is not the Harbinger of the Second Apocalypse. Anasurimbor Samarmas is.

The Celmomian Prophecy (Hmmm what a strange coincidence that it involves Kelmomas' name sake, remember the different spelling is just due to transliteration) says that "An Anasurimbor will return at the End of the World". However, as is pointed out by Esmenet in the Warrior Prophet when Achamian first tells her of Kellhus...if Kellhus truly is an Anasurimbor, then there has always been an Anasurimbor in the world. That's not a return of any kind. Why would a Norsirai High King deliver a prophecy that only makes sense if you consider the Three Seas the center of the world?

But maybe we've been thinking about the meaning of the prophecy the wrong way. Maybe he doesn't mean "any one named Anasurimbor will return at the End of the World". Maybe he means "A specific Anasurimbor will return at the End of the World."

Anasurimbor Celmomas, the King that delivered said prophecy as he lay dying, had a stillborn twin. The Sagas claim that the twin was with him always, and blames some of Celmomas' more...controversial acts on the influence of his dead twin. Sound familiar?

The White Luck Warrior, on top of that, has some seemingly pointed references to dead souls bouncing back into living bodies. The context makes it seem like this refers to Captain Kosoter of the Skin Eaters. But I don't think they were meant for him, since he's pretty dead by the end of the book.

So maybe the prophecy means specifically that Anasurimbor Samarmas will return (from the Outside) at the End of the World, not just any Anasurimbor. Samarmas (if that is indeed the voice inside little Kelmomas's head, which I believe it is) seems to be managing Kelmomas, manipulating his actions. Especially after Kelmomas kills his brother, after which the voice becomes stronger, more omnipresent, and more perceptive. It seems to encourage him to commit very unpleasant acts that bring chaos to the Empire. On top of that, Kelmomas is one of the Few. You don't want a crazy person having that kind of power. If anyone can herald the End of the World, it's those two.

Wilshire

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« Reply #1 on: February 02, 2015, 06:19:18 pm »
This is a great dissection of the prophecy. Probably the first that I have seen that makes me want to think about it further.

Your description makes it seem that the old Celmomas was warning the world against 'himself' (his dead twin's voice).

This makes me think of some kind of malevolent soul that has bounced several times, trying to end the world one way or another, and Celmomas had enough forsite/providence to realize that when it returned again it would foretell the true end.. How many times has this soul attempted to end the world? A Inchoroi agent? An old Nonman? Shae? Who, what, and where from is that soul?
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The Sharmat

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« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2015, 12:08:07 am »
If that's indeed what's happening, there's no telling what such a soul actually wants. Maybe it's like Wutteat, and just wants the world to end so it can rest. Or maybe it just delights in terrible things. It certainly seems sadistic when it speaks to Kelmomas.

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« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2015, 07:28:25 am »
The Celmomian Prophecy (Hmmm what a strange coincidence that it involves Kelmomas' name sake, remember the different spelling is just due to transliteration) says that "An Anasurimbor will return at the End of the World". However, as is pointed out by Esmenet in the Warrior Prophet when Achamian first tells her of Kellhus...if Kellhus truly is an Anasurimbor, then there has always been an Anasurimbor in the world. That's not a return of any kind.

So I'd have to disagree with the contention that Kellhus' appearance is made irrelevant by Moenghus.  Kellhus came into the crusade for Shimeh using his original name and telling everyone he was a prince.  Moenghus by contrast seems to have made little to no impression as an Anasûrimbor.

Also Kellhus has been much more prepared as well as having had the holy war set up for his benefit (he walked a large tract of 'prepared ground' toward Shimeh), and this confluence of events suggests to me that he is the harbinger of the Kelmomian prophecy.

And maybe the Dunyain are merely the keepers of that prophecy, a group which conditioned itself specifically to produce Kellhus Anasûrimbor and the circumstances of his Ordeal.
"I went mourning without the sun: I stood up and cried in the congregation."   -Job 30:28

The Sharmat

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« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2015, 11:41:01 am »
So you're actually a Zaudunyani then, more or less?

I wasn't referring specifically to Moenghus, but to everyone at Ishual who has born the name Anasurimbor since the Apocalypse. They've always been there. They never left the world.

And maybe the Dunyain are merely the keepers of that prophecy, a group which conditioned itself specifically to produce Kellhus Anasûrimbor and the circumstances of his Ordeal.
The Dunyain, who, at the very core of their teachings, reject the possibility of prophecy? That which comes after cannot determine what comes before. The Dunyain who purposefully forgot everything of history and sorcery from the beginning? The Dunyain that were astonished to find the unnamed Anasurimbor and Ishual?

Wilshire

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« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2015, 02:02:42 pm »
Yeah I'd have to say that the Dunyain at Ishual, whatever there plans are/were, they did not appear to include Kellhus making it to Shimeh, or even Atrithau. You might look at this thread for some justification:  http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=1164.0

Simply put, he was completely and utterly unprepared for the word and his journey in almost every conceivable way, and the fact that he made it to Leweth is nothing short of miraculous.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2015, 02:05:13 pm by Wilshire »
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« Reply #6 on: February 07, 2015, 05:59:42 am »
I believe it is possible that the founders of the Dunyain lied (we know they did about sorcery, which they must have initially known of) to their later followers about specific things in order to 'prepare the ground' for the coming of Anasurimbor Kellhus, including exiling Moenghus for reasons that were never even mentioned.  And honestly, you believe Kellhus was 'unprepared'?  Even if he was the path he took was not - Moenghus contrived the holy war with his world-born son Maithanet simply to deliver Kellhus to Shimeh.
"I went mourning without the sun: I stood up and cried in the congregation."   -Job 30:28

The Sharmat

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« Reply #7 on: February 07, 2015, 11:06:46 am »
Kellhus nearly dies in the wilderness from information overload, Dunyain are so unsuited for life outside.

Moenghus' exile is weird but I doubt the founders of the Dunyain have much influence as a conspiracy two thousand years after they are dead, especially if they lied to all subsequent generations of Dunyain.

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« Reply #8 on: February 07, 2015, 12:47:27 pm »
I believe Kellhus needed to almost die several times to become the Harbinger, to go beyond his Dunyain training.  He asks if what he is feeling is love when hanging against Serwe from Umiaki.  Moenghus explains later to Kellhus that the 'wilderness' broke him, I believe a necessary condition for the Harbinger.  Like Fane almost dying in the desert before becoming the prophet.
"I went mourning without the sun: I stood up and cried in the congregation."   -Job 30:28

The Sharmat

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« Reply #9 on: February 07, 2015, 01:42:37 pm »
That's fine. I see no reason to believe any of those things though, and there are simpler explanations requiring less faith.

Wilshire

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« Reply #10 on: February 08, 2015, 05:16:44 pm »
Yes, he was 100% unprepared. To summarize the above post:

No survival training (didnt know how to hunt, trap, build shelter...)
No warning of stimuli overload.
No winter clothing.
No bearing of how far and maybe even what direction to go.
No idea what sranc are.

Kellhus was 100% unprepared. If not for Leweth, he wouldn't have even made it to Atrithau, and even then it was a slim margin. Too much chance. Too much coincidece. Whether divine intervention, or conspiracy, or something else, someone/something got Mr. Harbinger to The Three Seas, as he was entirely and completely incompetent until post-scylvendi.
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The Sharmat

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« Reply #11 on: February 08, 2015, 06:46:38 pm »
Moenghus handled it better than Kellhus did, really. Instead of fighting the Sranc, he just integrated with them.

locke

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« Reply #12 on: February 08, 2015, 11:13:54 pm »
Kellhus didn't encounter sranc.  which is probably the most damning evidence of a literally conditioned path.

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« Reply #13 on: February 09, 2015, 01:21:12 am »
That's fine. I see no reason to believe any of those things though, and there are simpler explanations requiring less faith.

Okay so how would you explain the Kelmomian prophecies now that Kellhus leads the great ordeal?
"I went mourning without the sun: I stood up and cried in the congregation."   -Job 30:28

Wilshire

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« Reply #14 on: February 09, 2015, 03:34:15 am »
All the Celmomian prophecy did was state 2 thing. One "an Anasurimbor will return at the end of the word", and two, that when Seswatha dies the world ends.

The part referring to the Anasurimbor is rather unimportant, imo. Whether its Kellhus, or Moenghus, or Kelmomas, or anyone else is really not important. There is an Anasurimbor, and it does seem to be the end of the world. This part has been fulfilled, regardless of who it was/is.

Far, far more important is the Seswatha part, which remains a bit of a mystery.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2015, 01:49:43 pm by Wilshire »
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