This is my second time through the series and I'm midway through WHITE LUCK WARRIOR. It's definitely been interesting to read the books a second time in light of Scott's posts on TPB. You know, seeing how so many of his ideas find their way into Earwa is pretty great. In part, I'm going back through the books because I love the language so much; Scott has such a way with communicating setting and tone with words. All the crispness and precision of his language, the density of the metaphors, the vividness - oh man, it makes my head ring.
Putting that aside, I thought I'd make some noise about where I think we're headed with this last book in the Aspect Emperor series. There are so many threads here that I could never review all the discussions in any comprehensive way, so I apologize to my fellow Earwa lovers if I retread things discussed elsewhere.
So, some wild speculation about the end of the Unholy Consort. Here we go:
THE KING MUST DIE - I'm pretty sure we're going to see Kellhus die. I’m hopeful that the scene in which this happens will include a payoff moment where we see Akka kneel before him (as this was set up in the closing scene of TTT) "The next time you come before me, you will kneel." That bit. Mmm... love that scene. Perhaps not just kneel before him, but kneel over him, as he lays mortally wounded.
DUNYAIN & CONSULT BFF! - What are Kellhus' motives? I think he went crazy while on the circumfix (I think this is even said in a prologue somewhere), and that he really believes he's the prophet/savior of humanity. We get that much made clear in his chat with Moenghus at the end of TTT – we see in an internal monologue that Kellhus anticipates that Moenghus would lead the people of Earwa into manufactured catastrophes. This I take as the main reason Kellhus shivs his old da. The manufactured catastrophes bit: in that conversation a parallel is drawn between the Consort's desire to shut out the gods, and the Dunyain desire to be self-moving souls. Kellhus recognizes that the two have a unity of purpose. What a match made in heaven (or hell)! This is one reason I think the Dunyain could come flooding out of Golgotterath to meet the Ordeal. What an ending that would make! Surely Kellhus has considered this possibility while in the probability trance. We have been led to believe that Kellhus does not want this to happen, or the Consult to "win".
SORWEEL & …MIMARA!? - Hmm… how about this one: Sorweel and Mimara join up forces in Unholy Consort, and she helps him decide what he must do using the Judging Eye. Should he, after all, get his vengeance for Kellhus et al for conquering his homeland and killing his beloved father? Is Kellhus good or evil? What about the rest of the lot? Tell me Mimara, "WHAT DO YOU SEE?" Adds new resonance to that standby question, no? It explains why the whirlwind keeps asking it: it wants to know if it is still damned. It will be pretty darned instructive to learn what Mimara sees when looking at the Aspect Emperor while the Judging Eye is open. Her guidance could nudge Sorweel in the direction of making the right choice… well, whatever that means in Earwa. Serve Yatwer, or serve Kellhus? Or follow his own path?
144,000 - So, if we assume that Kellhus is going to die (a possibility for which Kellhus begins to groom Proyas in their fireside chats in White Luck Warrior) we can also assume that things will not bode well for the armies of men. I’m assuming that all but 144,000 will be killed as this magic number popped up somewhere in the opus. Some Christians believe that 144,000 people will be saved (raised up to heaven), and this number appears in the Book of Revelations as 12 tribes with 12,000 each being "sealed" for heaven, if I get it right. So, I'm sure Scott is aware of this, and is perhaps planning that only that many will be "saved"; saved from dying or from going to the outside or hell in death - who knows? I think that number will be the starting point for the third trilogy after the impending catastrophe that I assume will come at the end of the Unholy Consult.
3RD TRILOGY - Another reason I think we can assume the proverbial shit is about to hit the fan, and that Kellhus will not ride home on a rainbow made of pixie dust, is that we’ve heard some hubbub about a third trilogy. Well, if everything was wrapped up and pat, then why bother with a third trilogy? I would put forward that perhaps the third trilogy would deal with Sorweel, Mimara, and her baby (!) trying to finally, really and truly, destroy the Consult.
KELLHUS AS EVIL OVERLORD - Kellhus leads the Great Ordeal and conquers! Then rides home on a unicorn! Trumpets made out of honey blare his triumphant return. Hawaiian punch in every water fountain! Unlikely. How about this: Kellhus is NOT in fact insane (from a Dunyain perspective) and rides the Great Ordeal all the way to the doors of Golgotterath then picks that moment to use them as a bargaining chip to obtain his own, individual salvation (by becoming complicit in the effort to shut the gods out). In so doing, he has, at last, become a self moving soul, albeit at the cost of the ENTIRE HUMAN RACE! It’s an interesting thought, but not one for which we’ve gotten any foreshadowing, I feel. I’m pretty sure he’s simply crazy, and believes himself to be the savior. Now, are the other Dunyain crazy?
NATURE OF THE NO-GOD REVEALED – This seems pretty evident to me, especially after reading the chapter excerpt from Unholy Consort. If you haven’t read that bit, and don’t want to until the book is released, skip the rest of this entry. Here’s the part I found relevant:QuoteHe described a hate-rotted soul, forever falling into hell, forever deflected by ancient and arcane magicks, caught in the sackcloth of souls too near death to resist his clutching tumble, too devoid of animating passion.
A pit bent into a circle, the most perfect of the Conserving Forms...
“But isn’t trapping souls an ancient art?” she asked.
“It is...” Achamian replied.
We learn about the soul of Sheönanra ping-ponging circularly so that it can’t plummet into hell, confronting Nau Cayuti (I believe). We learn about the NO-GOD sucking up souls hoover-style (circular again, naturally). If the objective of the consult is to shut out the gods, and if Scott has described the way in which Sheönanra has isolated himself from damnation, it stands to reason that this IS the essential mechanism by which the No-god will shut out the outside. So, I would suggest that Sheönanra is the No-god, wrapped up in a tidy carapace with a whirlwind bow on top. He isn't making his tour of the countryside so much to do destroy the human race, as to collect their souls and thus deny the gods access and thereby close the world to the outside.
I’d love to hear your thoughts about this stuff. I think the only way I'd be disappointed by the ending to this series is if I was somehow not surprised. Honestly, I’m not too worried about that happening as Scott seems to always have something delicious and unexpected waiting for us.
-Will
Shaeonanra is the No-God is interesting.
Also interesting is the idea that the No-God was looking for the Judging Eye, and that's why it took the field. The no-god wanted to know if it was still damned.
sucking up souls hoover style, sort of like ghostbusters, only they're sucking up the 'souls' and protecting them from the outside within the carapace, a new repository for souls. The No God is saving souls?
+1 on No-God saving souls from Damnation. Inversion!
First off – yeah baby! Wicked post. I very much concur with reasons for liking Bakker’s writing.
No need to apologize. If anything that is a compliment to our growing noosphere here at Second Apocalypse. You should check out my version of a wrap-up post though – The Unholy Consult[/b] (http://secondapocalypse.forumer.com/the-unholy-consult-t1188643.html).
The King Must Die – Agreed with one proviso – Kellhus’ Death will be planned either to defect to the Consult, possibly faked, possibly through resurrection by the Tekne, or to ascend to his own realm in the Outside where he continues his quest – whatever that may be.
Dunyain & Consult BFF! – I still like Nerdaneling about the Dunyain already dominating Ishterebinth – why not the Consult too? Maybe that’s what we’ll discover in the North…. Nonmen and Consult have been Dunyainified.
Sorweel & …Mimara!? – I like the idea of the two non-players (though, obviously, they are) joining forces. After all, Sorweel and Mimara are severely outclassed by Serwa and Achamian, to a lesser extent by Moenghus as well.
3rd Trilogy – My personal bet is we won’t make it past the conclusions of the Sieges of Dagliash and Momemn, respectively. The big question is how much time passes between TAE and TSTSNBN?
Kellhus as Evil Overlord – I like this… don’t see it happening but I always expect curveballs from Bakker.
Nature of the No-God revealed – I don’t think we’ll have this reconciled by the end of The Aspect-Emperor. I figure AE will end with an “and as one they all looked to the Northern horizon… felt it… him… the No-God walked!”
Insight of the day – Atheist is No-God in Latin.
Cheers, Willem.
Quote from: WillemB
144,000 - So, if we assume that Kellhus is going to die (a possibility for which Kellhus begins to groom Proyas in their fireside chats in White Luck Warrior) we can also assume that things will not bode well for the armies of men. I’m assuming that all but 144,000 will be killed as this magic number popped up somewhere in the opus. Some Christians believe that 144,000 people will be saved (raised up to heaven), and this number appears in the Book of Revelations as 12 tribes with 12,000 each being "sealed" for heaven, if I get it right. So, I'm sure Scott is aware of this, and is perhaps planning that only that many will be "saved"; saved from dying or from going to the outside or hell in death - who knows? I think that number will be the starting point for the third trilogy after the impending catastrophe that I assume will come at the end of the Unholy Consult.
-Will
Nice post Will, I love to see all the activity. I am deep into my own reread right now as well. Your post made me think of something though...
The "souls" that we think we know that are not damned in Earwa can be counted on two hands. I like to believe instead of dropping a count to 144,000, the key to salvation might be adding up a certain number of "souls" from >10 to reach 144,000?
Probably a ton of holes, but there you go.
Quote from: Madness+1 on No-God saving souls from Damnation. Inversion!
First off – yeah baby! Wicked post. I very much concur with reasons for liking Bakker’s writing.
No need to apologize. If anything that is a compliment to our growing noosphere here at Second Apocalypse. You should check out my version of a wrap-up post though – The Unholy Consult[/b] (http://secondapocalypse.forumer.com/the-unholy-consult-t1188643.html).
Oh yeah, that is indeed a plus-sized wrap-up post! Thanks for the link. Reading it now with great relish.
THE KING MUST DIE - Yep at Cnauir, Old Moes or Akkas hand no doubt. Unless Solitary God himself will appear. Not forgetting the White Luck who already? had done it in some future path?
DUNYAIN & CONSULT BFF! - Yeah I find it obvious that Dunyains are now re-reading the Arc manuals, discussing with all Sheoarna and generally building USS Enterprise out of it - Lt.Cmdr.Data anyone. While keeping the bird and diabolic Aurango/Aurax in the dark.
SORWEEL & …MIMARA!? - Yep that is good suggestion that No-God is looking for judging eye. Very good.
144,000 - hmm have no idea
3RD TRILOGY - unfortunately that might be true or at least yet another book. I think there is a lot to cover still I imagine. Unless the UC is 800 pages.
KELLHUS AS EVIL OVERLORD - no adjectives please its so Mandati of you, just Overlord will suffice...
NATURE OF THE NO-GOD REVEALED – yep. For sure. Cnauir it is again?
+1 coobek. I'm always after what a Dunyain would do with the Tekne. It'd probably be like mecha meets Silent Hill.
That, fyi, is the only thing I can suggest that Kellhus has as a "goal" anymore, is mastering the Tekne. Could Kellhus have made it to Golgotterath alone?
Yes I think the Tekne is or should be his real goal if he still is 'regular' Dunyain and not 'crazy' one.
Probably also the invention of banking, financialization and derivatives - to finally be the master of the universe.
I’m not saying you’re wrong here, I’m just curious as to what use you think he would put the Tekne?
Besides just another weapon I can’t think of any huge benefit (crucially, any immediate benefit, as his creations via genetics would take time to grow)
Quote from: BorricI’m not saying you’re wrong here, I’m just curious as to what use you think he would put the Tekne?
Besides just another weapon I can’t think of any huge benefit (crucially, any immediate benefit, as his creations via genetics would take time to grow)
Its additional piece of puzzle to understand the universe and therefore What Comes Before. Information. I think. So For the sake of it, for the sake of knowing.
Somebody written in the old forum that Kelhus is in fact an exemplification of a science or scientific approach in the books (vs other phylosophical approaches) so this is only logical step to know more.
While I realize we have some astute chemists and biologists kicking around, I'd hazard that this is fiction. Kellhus would instantly know more about the Tekne then anyone alive (even to the point of being a prodigy among the dead Inchoroi, as the Tekne is tailor made for Dunyain philosophy). He's probably going to do something to himself to move further towards the Self-Moving Soul - which seems to be inherent to "saving the world," if he's interested in that at all.
+1 coobek. The Dunyain need the "true" foundational variables of the world - their Project is flawed in isolation. Sorcery. Faith. The Tekne?
War is mostly necessary for worldly domination.
I used to think he required the Tekne for immortality.
But after reading the first half of the Unholy Consult chapter, it’s obvious this was not how Shaeonanra achieved his immortality.
So i guess it was yet another Tekne ability they have lost, or one that does not work for humans.
So i had kind of ruled out a search for immortality, and can’t see another great reason/use for the Tekne.
Quote from: Madness
Btw, out of curiousity, have you all realized that Mimara is going to die giving birth to a stillborn baby?
(Post from another thread that reminded me of this one.)
An Anasurimbor womb plague? Has Kellhus been to the Ark and striving for immortality the same way the nonmen were "granted" theirs? Fits kind of nice into the idea that AK would want to learn the Tekne to add to his known variables.
"Don't be born into a world of automatic damnation if your goal is salvation." -Me
Not sure if that is where you were going with it, but that is where you led me...
I like this idea that Kellhus would be after the Tekne. If he is indeed still sane, we need to assume that his feelings towards humanity and the Consult are essentially ambivalent; important only in as much as they help him towards his goal.
I could see a scenario where he uses the Ordeal as a bargaining chip/entry point into cutting a deal with the Consult, maybe acting as mediator in exchange for access to their technology. Maybe he helps them establish themselves in their own little bubble in the Outside, or gets them to agree to some kind of truce.
You know, that would be logical, and Dunyain-esque, but is a bit of a whimpering finale to the series, isn't it?
Quote from: Garet JaxQuote from: Madness
Btw, out of curiousity, have you all realized that Mimara is going to die giving birth to a stillborn baby?
(Post from another thread that reminded me of this one.)
An Anasurimbor womb plague? Has Kellhus been to the Ark and striving for immortality the same way the nonmen were "granted" theirs? Fits kind of nice into the idea that AK would want to learn the Tekne to add to his known variables.
"Don't be born into a world of automatic damnation if your goal is salvation." -Me
Not sure if that is where you were going with it, but that is where you led me...
riffing off this, what if the 'no births' thing was not at all related to the no-god? What if it was a coincidence that it occurred at the same time? and because both occurred, everyone has always assumed that the No-God is the cause--particularly because all men could feel his presence. They've made a classic cognitive error!
So what would cause the 'no births' thing? Someone having the judging eye getting pregnant and giving birth for the first time. And the 'no births' effect of the judging eye persists until the death of the person with the judging eye or the death of the TJE child (last child born).
So the whole reason humanity rallied against the No God (the no births) was not even a cause of the No God. Perhaps TJE was caused by Ajokli, as a WLW esque phenomena meant to oppose the No God.
This would make the Consult a little less dumb. And once they realize that humanity is unified against them for no reason of their own (they probably thought they had come up with a clever little anti-damnation device), they decide to take the field. For two reasons, one, Shae is freaked out because The Inverse Fire still shows them as damned, and the No God was supposed to stop that so they want TJE to confirm the IF diagnosis. and two, if they manage to kill whatever random chick has TJE, they end the no births phenomena and that will end humanity's will to fight and they can go back to turtle in Golgotteranth for eternity, with their little corner of the world shut to the outside.
The problem then arises that when TJE sees the NG the metaphysics that allow the No God are neutralized and a new ground is reasserted, a frame without the No God is established and the No God goes pfft.
When the No God goes pfft, everyone around dies, unless they were a sorcerer with a ward up.
That means the random peasant woman of Mengedda who had the Judging Eye who saw the No God with it died moments after the No God died, thus ending the No Births effect of the Judging Eye manifesting in the world--and neatly terminating the gods' interference in the world after the useful human has no more use.
And no one was ever the wiser.
For my own part, I'd suggest that the stillborn thing is important.
Attribution errors aside, the years of stillbirth, associated with the No-God's existence are a horrifying thought.
Mimara has the Judging Eye. This apparently only afflicts woman who will become pregnant at some point in their lives. Achamian explicitly says that the pregnancy results in a stillborn baby and it is implied in the text and what Achamian omits that the women die during childbirth.
Children, wombs, childbirth, seed - all big motifs.
+1 for hypotheses, lockesnow.
This is just a completely random thought... :D
What if Kellhus, contrary to his preaching, knows of his own damnation; the damnation that accompanies his mark? What if he is trying to erase that very damnation? What if the whole Great Ordeal is an attempt to rewrite the laws of the world; the laws of balance? What if the only way for Kellhus to accomplish this is to kill the original makers of these laws? What if Kellhus is trying to kill the Gods??
That would be an extra reason for Yatwer wanting him dead so badly. Also, he could be planning to use the consult's technology to open a gate of some sort to the outerworld and war against the gods themselves.
Kellhus might not be the man who we think him to be. He could simply have gone mad with power. Maybe his whole divine quest is just a cover-up for a war driven by one man's lust for power.
I think that's one of the greatest aspects of Bakker's writing. You can never tell what's right and what's wrong. Unlike in many other fantasy works, his characters are real. They are all raw human beings and are subject to the flaws and urges that come so naturally to us; the whims and fancies. There is no distinct good and evil. Just people in a bloody devastated godforsaken world; a lot like ours.
And maybe the qirri will have some effect on Mimara's childbirth??
+1 for thoughts, pappu.
Yes... the Qirri.
And now that they've lost all of Cu'jara Cinmoi, how is Nil'giccas going to affect them differently?
Are the Intact all just snorting their dead heroes?!
Why would Kellhus still be striving for the self moving soul? He is not a dunyain any longer, and even if he were he is too enmeshed in the darkness to precede it now.
He may not care if you are crushed by the pursuit of his quest, but neither does he recieve gratification for any achievement. So why would he pursue immortality? Indeed, what point in surviving the completion of his mission?
If he thinks he needs to escape damnation - maybe. But I think he's too crazy to believe that.
The other dunyain themselves would not be damned, anyway. They are protected by their isolation.Quote from: RSBThe idea is that without the interest of the various 'agencies' (as the Nonmen call them) inhabiting the Outside, one simply falls into oblivion - dies.
I think those are assumptions about Kellhus, Curethan, like all our assertions are.
So the Righteous God requires that you attract its attention to gain Absolution... much safer to not play the game at all, rather than try and live righteously.
Quote from: Madness+1 for thoughts, pappu.
Are the Intact all just snorting their dead heroes?!
Did Cleric ever actually take qirri himself, or did he just administer it?
I actually don't think I've had a copy of TJE since I started the forum, having lent them out. Where I am the most common Bakker titles to be carried anywhere are TDTCB and WLW - I never make a point to order one.
However, I recently found confirmation among the posts on Three Seas/Wayback that on p399 (I believe) of TJE Mimara sees Cleric with the Judging Eye and he too is Damned - though, obviously, the reasons for his damnation are up for his debate like Achamian's - all in the quest to prove or disprove Kellhus' assertion that Sorcery is no longer Damned.
You know, books not on hand, I figure, Cleric never did. This is Cleric's plan all along - addict people to Qirri, eventually deny it to them, most addicts will fight you for their fix.
And now I think I've decided that Cleric did, in fact, give up. He wanted to die as Nil'giccas and fighting Achamian/Seswatha at Sauglish was probably all too overwhelming for him - when was that specific kind of traumatic circumstance ever going to randomly happen again.
He says something like "This is where I'm meant to die" when they arrive...
Oh, we have a thread ;): The Cleric Suicides...[/b] (http://secondapocalypse.forumer.com/the-cleric-suicides-t1222238.html).
In fact, you're the last person to post in it.
I just never agreed with him committing suicide before. Revelation on my part.
Quote from: Mithfanion, 2005Scott, could you say who or what is Nin-Ciljiras? He (or it) is mentioned by the Inchoroi...Quote from: Cu'jara Cinmoi, 2005He's a character in The Aspect-Emperor...Quote from: Cu'jara Cinmoi, 2005Mansion' is used both as a term to describe Nonmen cities, and much as the way 'House' is used - as an epithet for dynasties, families, etc.
In my old notes the Nonmen also used totemic devices, but in the multi-form manner that characterizes much of their art. So for instance, a Nonmen representation of a wolf would likely show it occupying two or more postures at once, like sleeping/running.
Having Nonmen blood means many things - things, which come to the fore when the Nonmen take a more active role in The Aspect-Emperor. Sometimes I feel like you're the dirty old man in the strip bar sitting on sniff row shouting 'take it off!'Quote from: Cu'jara Cinmoi, 2004The Aspect-Emperor, another trilogy which returns to the demented cast (those that survive, that is) of PON some twenty years later. More than a few people groan when I say this, which is why I always feel the need to explain myself! First, I conceived and roughed out the greater cycle of stories (as a trilogy of trilogies) the year before WoT came out, so this is most definitely not a case of me slavishly following commercial precedents. This means, secondly, that every book in the series is motivated by STORY, and not money (if there is any in this business!) Third, PON is a complete tale, and not merely the first third of one. The relationship of AE to PON is more akin to the relationship between the Dune books, though the narrative arc that binds them - the story of the Second Apocalypse - is, I like to think, less ad hoc than Herbert's.
As strange as it sounds, I look at PON as my version of The Hobbit.Quote from: Cu'jara Cinmoi, 2004Many Nonmen wander Earwa and the Three Seas, searching for trauma - which is to say, memories. A few hundred serve Golgotterath. The majority of these are what are called 'Erratics' - Nonmen who've been driven mad by the accumulation of trauma.
The majority of surviving Nonmen, however, dwell in Ishterebinth - stonghold of the ancient Nonmen nation of Injor Niyas - where they struggle to keep the dwindling flame of their ancient civilization alive. Here the Quya and the Siqu masters continue their studies, developing techniques, sorcerous and otherwise, to keep their race sane.
There, I've gone and said too much!
That makes it sound like getting Ishterebinth to come over to the Great Ordeal is crucial. Not that saying so it too surprising, but it sounds like there are indeed a lot of powerful Quya that can still be swayed.
+1. Whether they're necessary for the Ordeal or not is incidental to me. I've wanted to experience Ishterebinth since TWP.
Hmm... most of the way through WLW, almost done in fact. Kellhus' appearance at the end of the climactic battle in the book, and his subsequent use of metagnosis (I assume) to blast a legion of sranc back through the air inspired further reflection on his motives.
Here's an addition/amendment to my original post in this thread:
Kellhus - Aspiring God/Demon: Kellhus' objective is to keep the world open (in contrast to Moe) so that his followers can better worship him in the afterlife. We know that the followers of Yatwer need only "reach to her" when they die. How better to become a truly self-moving soul than to transcend; to be come a god/demon a la Yatwer, to set up his own little slice-o-heaven. Perhaps to be a god one need only have believers (echoes of Malazan?).
So, Kellhus willingly dies, sacrificed in pursuance of the salvation of humanity. By grooming Proyas' expectations about the nature of his divinity, Kellhus prepares him for the inevitable fact of his (Kellhus') own self-sacrifice/death, "conditioning the path". Consider this bit:Quote“We begin believing when we are children,” Kellhus continued. “And so we make childish expectations our rule, the measure for what the holy should be …” He gestured to the ornamentation about them, spare as it was compared with the fleshpots of the South. “Simplicity. Symmetry. Beauty. These are but the appearance of the holy—the gilding that deceives. What is holy is difficult, ugly beyond comprehension, in the eyes of all save the God.”
So, just as the Circumfix is the symbol for this portion of Kellhus' journey to godhood, a little iconized version of him getting skewered by Aurang (a moment that is "ugly beyond comprehension") will be the symbol for the next. Proyas, properly invested by Kellhus with leadership of the Ordeal, will cry a slow-mo "nooooooooooooooooo" then tearfully lead the armies of men, with some help from Akka, Mimara, and the Heron Spear, to finally vanquish the Consult (and Cnaiur, who will show up on a balcony at Golgotterath, sipping a cup-o Sanka while ur-Serwe massages his feet).
All the Three Seas will spend the rest of forever happily worshipping Kellhus and populate his private playground in the Outside. Because this is such a tidy ending, RSB will announce that there will be no 3rd trilogy, and will plaster an italicized 'fin' on the last page of The Unholy Consult, closing the book on Earwa for once and all.
Quote from: WillemBKellhus' objective is to keep the world open (in contrast to Moe) so that his followers can better worship him in the afterlife. We know that the followers of Yatwer need only "reach to her" when they die. How better to become a truly self-moving soul than to transcend; to be come a god/demon a la Yatwer, to set up his own little slice-o-heaven. Perhaps to be a god one need only have believers (echoes of Malazan?)
Moenghus did it first :). I've plugged this thought for some time, in small measure, that Kellhus might use Dagliash to attempt something of this nature. However, if he does, that means it's extremely likely that Moenghus the Elder did the same thing at Shimeh/Kyudea.
Why use Dagliash when Golgotterath is so liguistically similar to Golgotha?
I knew that Moenghus had followers among the Cish much like Kellhus did with his "little Dunyani" when he journeyed south, but what/how did Moenghus achieve godhood at Shimeh/Kyudea, and what parallel do we get if Kellhus does so in Dagliash?
You know, you just got me starting to wonder if Meppa could be Moe, now this...
I have been absent from these forums for far too long! Wow! Some really interesting discussion taking place across several topics. I have some more free-time, so I'll do my best to catch up and keep up.
I really like the idea that Moënghus has more to add to the overall story. I absolutely loved the dialogue between Kellhus and Moë, but I felt that Moë should have been more influential on the story as a whole. Maybe he his, only time and TUC will tell.
I've recently been reading the speculation on Meppa as well, but I do not believe Meppa is Moë, it seems too far fetched and Meppa would be quite old.
I think the end of TUC will tie up several loose ends, but ultimately leave us hanging or introduce something we've never even considered. The third series, that shall not be named, is still to come as far as I know and I am assuming that is where we'll get full closure.
Lol. Athjeari - The Wind Has Teeth returns!
Wow. You know, we can continue that sorcery/linguistic conversation we started some five years ago: It's actually topical in the Cishaurim[/b] (http://secondapocalypse.forumer.com/cishaurim-t1193485.html) thread right now.
Did you ever finish that rhetoric paper on PON?
Quote from: AthjeäriI've recently been reading the speculation on Meppa as well, but I do not believe Meppa is Moë, it seems too far fetched and Meppa would be quite old.
Welcome back, Athjeäri.
Not that I subscribe, but longevity is one of the benefits of Nonman heritage.
I have this vision of Yatwer incarnating in her true, demonic/goddess form, and Meppa ne Moe shivving her while she makes ready to devour Mimara. Booyah, the gods just got flanked!
A boy can dream.
Good to be back, thanks folks.
I did finish my rhetorical paper on PON, it was actually my MA thesis and a beast of a project. I'd be interested to continue our discussion, Madness, but I can't for the life of me remember where we left off. I posted on the Cishaurim thread, so maybe you can reply to my post and refresh my memory...(makes me feel kinda like a Nonman...I remember...I remember...)
I can't see the very distant Nonmen heritage playing a factor in Moë (or even Kellhus) but it's a possibility. Meppa is an interesting character, but I think it more likely that he is a machination of Moë and not Moë himself. Either that, or he is just the last Cish and is significant in that regard.
I'm honestly also really curious about the WLW. That man obviously has a much larger role to play in the story as well.
Actually, I recently found the original thread, Athjeari - Sovin Nai (aengelas here) has reopened a read-only version of the Three-Seas so we could mine it for speculative fodder for the Second Apocalypse - you know, old members quoting Cu'jara Cinmoi and such.
Also, on that note - I'll have to track it down - but there's a quote been posted about Nonmen blood coming to fore in Aspect-Emperor.
Lol, I'm sure there's much for you to explore.Quote from: WillemI knew that Moenghus had followers among the Cish much like Kellhus did with his "little Dunyani" when he journeyed south, but what/how did Moenghus achieve godhood at Shimeh/Kyudea, and what parallel do we get if Kellhus does so in Dagliash?
You know, you just got me starting to wonder if Meppa could be Moe, now this...
Sorry, Willem, missed this before. My Nerdanel goes like this:
Moenghus commanded a Sect of Cishaurim (we could probably suggest that he actually reinterpreted the kipfa’aifan - Witness of Fane - like Kellhus does the Tractate). If reinterpreting Belief, reinterprets the Outside (and this really grew out of an old forum theory that Belief was pervasive - really providing the Gods with power. If no one believes, no God exists, etc), then Moenghus/Kellhus cultivated new realms of the Outside while their are alive.
Inri Sejenus apparently really ascends at Kyudea, not Shimeh - so the division between reality is already malleable there. Moenghus dies while all the Cishaurim die but in a sense, they die defending him, their spiritual leader, and their spiritual teachings.
Then there's the reaching towards your God, or the ancestral spaces of the Outside, segues.
No one else is game to entertain?I am, so long as we assume Mimara is Achamian's daughter, and he refuses to think about it just like he refuses to think about how he caused Inrau to be damned...
Yep, baby is alive. It's the focus of TSTMNBN (Leto analogue).
But then, why? If he was at all interested in allying with the Consult (or simply did not care what they do one way or another so long as he gets his) he surely wouldn't need to slaughter a quarter million people and allow his empire to collapse.
...
B) He will continue obssesively, and futiley, fighting against the Consult even when their intentions end up seeming "good". This is all hinges on my belief that the Consult are, in reality, sort of anti-heroes.
The Hundred are the true "bad guys" (obviously it's kind of silly to think of "good guys and bad guys" in such a complex series, but it's for the sake of discussion). As I've mentioned before, I think one of Bakker's intentions with the series was to create what seemed like the most evil group imaginable (The Consult), only to trump them with something even worse (The Hundred). A few million dead humans, the cost of bringing back the No-God, is nothing compared to an entire universe worth of damned beings. The absolute worst tortures the Consult could conceive are nothing compared to damnation, and damnation is on a scale that utterly dwarfs the atrocities the Consult has committed.
I have no clue how much of this I think will actually happen in TUC. I'm kinda confused about it actually, particular that one quote Bakker had about TUC being the end-point of the series as he originally imagined it.
FB, I understand not being comfortable with the possibilities of TSTSNBN but I feel like TUC is going to be a more conclusive ending than TTT.
I'm interested in how you think things will end for the major characters' arcs, because I think if anything is left hanging, it will be those big metaphysical ambiguities.
As I've mentioned before, I think one of Bakker's intentions with the series was to create what seemed like the most evil group imaginable (The Consult), only to trump them with something even worse (The Hundred).What is the suffering or mortal men for a few thousand years compared to the everlasting torture of all men's souls for eternity?
I'm not convinced being the no-god is something anyone would aspire to. He doesn't seem very happy.
I'm not sure how the God can awaken? If it is omnipresent throughout time, how can it think or act? If there were no gaps in your perception and everything seemed to occur both simultaneously and constantly, how can you act or think? Memory becomes the same as being. ha ha ha ha ha
FB, I understand not being comfortable with the possibilities of TSTSNBN but I feel like TUC is going to be a more conclusive ending than TTT.
I'm interested in how you think things will end for the major characters' arcs, because I think if anything is left hanging, it will be those big metaphysical ambiguities.
NooooOOOOOoooOOOOooooOOOOoooooo :'(.
Maybe? Damnation has not been established as bad enough for me to consider tolerating the Consult. Nor do I think the Consult necessarily have the most effective solution (but arguably, if Kellhus doesn't kill as many achieving the same end, he's simply more efficient than the Inchoroi or the Consult).
What is the suffering or mortal men for a few thousand years compared to the everlasting torture of all men's souls for eternity?
Yeah, that's what I'm unclear on. If it really is quite conclusive, then I'm not sure what I feel about the various characters, or even how these things I've mentioned will play out. Do you think that TSTSNBN is actually going to be more of an epilogue sort of thing?
QuoteNooooOOOOOoooOOOOooooOOOOoooooo :'(.
Lol, you have to admit it would be a rather tragic and poetic arc for the character though.
QuoteMaybe? Damnation has not been established as bad enough for me to consider tolerating the Consult. Nor do I think the Consult necessarily have the most effective solution (but arguably, if Kellhus doesn't kill as many achieving the same end, he's simply more efficient than the Inchoroi or the Consult).
Well yeah, that's what all this rides one. What is damnation, really? I tend to lean towards it really being as bad as the Inverse Fire makes it seem. I mean, it would kind of undercut a huge part of the tension, suspense, and stakes of the series if, in the end, it's just like, "Ah, well, damnation isn't so bad afterall!". If that is the case, I'm very damn curious to see how Bakker could possibly turn it back around and still maintain that sense of epic stakes that the series is well-loved for.
[Edit]
Except that perhaps Kellhus must return to the Empire in order for the White-Luck to have the opportunity to kill him.
WLW is going to kill the emperor. Might not be Kellhus by that time. :P
Pretty sure that WLW only future remembers/thinks about killing 'the emperor'.
Little factoid that I noted when I was speculating why Yatwer would have Sorweel poised to kill Kellhus when the WLW was already seemingly set up to do just that.
That sounds like something one of Bakker's children would write after he died. Everything there seems plausible, except, of course, comparing Kellhus to Frodo :P
That sounds like something one of Bakker's children would write after he died. Everything there seems plausible, except, of course, comparing Kellhus to Frodo :P
That sounds like something one of Bakker's children would write after he died. Everything there seems plausible, except, of course, comparing Kellhus to Frodo :P
I got to think that there's going to be an appearance of Zeumi war ships in TUC. The whole thing about Kellhus striking a deal with Zeum and getting to take the prince along--Kellhus must have squeezed Zeum for some kind of military support, esp a navy which would come in really useful for ferrying supplies into the waste around the Ark.
Perhaps we get a backwards Tolkien moment where K is hoping to see the Zeumi ships appear and they do, but they've been highjacked by consult/ishterbinth erratics.
Yeah but he's at a daughter now, so she'd have to let us, reguardless of how much we wanted it :P.
That sounds like something one of Bakker's children would write after he died. Everything there seems plausible, except, of course, comparing Kellhus to Frodo :P
I got to think that there's going to be an appearance of Zeumi war ships in TUC. The whole thing about Kellhus striking a deal with Zeum and getting to take the prince along--Kellhus must have squeezed Zeum for some kind of military support, esp a navy which would come in really useful for ferrying supplies into the waste around the Ark.
Perhaps we get a backwards Tolkien moment where K is hoping to see the Zeumi ships appear and they do, but they've been highjacked by consult/ishterbinth erratics.
I think Nganka'kull (sp?) is possibly playing both sides. Malowebi is with Fanayal, determining if he thinks the man can defeat Kel. If he could, I think Zeum would support the Fanim. If not, he might just show up to help Kel out, maybe through fear of being next on Kel's hitlist, if nothing else.
I've figured souls work kind of like souls do in the Warhammer universe (if you pledge your soul to X god, it becomes part of X god, making it stronger) and that Kellhus is trying to do what the Emperor did and convince loads of people to worship him as a god and dedicate their souls to him. By feeding on those souls, he can gain power in the outside and become a god himself and then enact TTT through the hearts and minds of all people. Everyone will worship him as a god when he dies (probably at the end of the series), with the Zeumi prince going home to spread the good word of the Aspect Emperor's heroic sacrifice for all humanity. Everyone worships him, he gets to not only not be damned but to feast on everyone's soul and blot out all the other gods so only he remains. By pledging their souls to him, sorcerers escape eternal damnation...meaning what he said is kind of true and he is a prophet. A prophet of himself.
When I first read the series, I thought for the longest time that the No-God was simply a bomb and the Consult were just morons that worshipped it as a god like those nutters in one of the Planet of the Apes movies. I thought the whole thing about creating the NG and whatnot and descriptions of his carapace were just creative ways of saying they were researching some kind of bomb and the womb-plague that made everyone infertile was simply some byproduct of it like radiation. Funnily enough, I thought the stuff at the Battleplain was the result of Seswatha accidentally detonating the No-God and releasing magical fallout everywhere. It seems really funny now but that was my first impression all those years ago :P
The idol was worked in white marble, eyes closed with the sunken look of the dead. At first glance she appeared to be the severed head of a woman, beautiful yet vaguely common, mounted on a pole. Anything more than a glance, however, revealed the pole to be a miniature tree, like those cultivated by the ancient Norsirai, only worked in bronze. Branches poked through her parted lips and swept across her face—nature reborn through human lips. Other branches reached behind to break through her frozen hair. Her image never failed to stir something within him, and this is why he always returned to her: she was this stirring, the dark place where the flurries of his thought arose. She came before him.
Bakker, R. Scott (2008-09-02). The Darkness that Comes Before (The Prince of Nothing) (p. 122). Penguin Group. Kindle Edition.
braziers. The columns soared up to support the clerestory, the raised central section of the roof, too high for the light to reach. To either side of the clerestory aisle were two more rows of lesser columns, flanking the small godhouses of various Cultic deities. Everything seemed to be reaching, reaching. He placed an absent hand on the limestone. Cool. Impassive. No sign of the great load borne. Such was the strength of inanimate things. Give me this strength, Goddess. Make me as a pillar.
Bakker, R. Scott (2008-09-02). The Darkness that Comes Before (The Prince of Nothing) (p. 121). Penguin Group. Kindle Edition.
With a single outstretched hand, Paro Inrau followed a pillar to the earth.
Bakker, R. Scott (2008-09-02). The Darkness that Comes Before (The Prince of Nothing) (p. 128). Penguin Group. Kindle Edition.
When I first read the series, I thought for the longest time that the No-God was simply a bomb and the Consult were just morons that worshipped it as a god like those nutters in one of the Planet of the Apes movies. I thought the whole thing about creating the NG and whatnot and descriptions of his carapace were just creative ways of saying they were researching some kind of bomb and the womb-plague that made everyone infertile was simply some byproduct of it like radiation. Funnily enough, I thought the stuff at the Battleplain was the result of Seswatha accidentally detonating the No-God and releasing magical fallout everywhere. It seems really funny now but that was my first impression all those years ago :P
This never occurred to me--No-God as Nuke. The Consult plan (if they had one) was to put it in the right spot at the right time, but Seswatha foiled it? I like this idea!
A prophet of himself.
The consult was in open warfare with the Kiniuri for 23 years before they summoned Mog. The North was then crushed over the next 12 years until they mankind was driven to the very edge of the inhabited continent. And remember, no children were born during the time the no-god was on the material plane. The sranc had no such problems, indeed they seem fecund and likely reproduced even faster when driven by Mog's will.
I think it not far-fetched to suppose that the majority of males remaining able to walk and hold a spear in Earwa were in Anaxophus V's army. There were no children below the age of 13 left at this point.
The glossary does state that attrition forced Mog to the field, but I think it was the attrition of men, not sranc, and that the transformation of the battleplain to a topos was the prelude to the culmination of the consult's final solution rather than the result of Mog's destruction.
Q: In THE WHITE-LUCK WARRIOR we get some hints about the stakes that are being played for, the notion that the Consult want to reduce the population of Earwa to a specific decimal number which has Biblical significance. Was your intention here to draw a direct parallel between the story of Kellhus and the Great Ordeal and that Biblical source, or was it merely an easter egg and the correlation itself is not significant?
QuoteQ: In THE WHITE-LUCK WARRIOR we get some hints about the stakes that are being played for, the notion that the Consult want to reduce the population of Earwa to a specific decimal number which has Biblical significance. Was your intention here to draw a direct parallel between the story of Kellhus and the Great Ordeal and that Biblical source, or was it merely an easter egg and the correlation itself is not significant?
Questions like these are so easy to dodge, the construction gives the answerer any of a bajillion outs to avoid answering it, as Bakker did. But we always get Questions with these kind of constructions because it flatters the question writer, who wants to show off his or her personal theories and also is hoping for validation if right and all the warm fuzzies and bragging rights that come along with the validation.
Maybe it's a red herring for the inchoroi, who simply have a religious belief that 144k is the number to hit. :o
My personal nerdanel for the end of the series is that Kellhus is not trying to become the NG at all despite what so many people seem to think but the opposite. I've figured souls work kind of like souls do in the Warhammer universe (if you pledge your soul to X god, it becomes part of X god, making it stronger) and that Kellhus is trying to do what the Emperor did and convince loads of people to worship him as a god and dedicate their souls to him. By feeding on those souls, he can gain power in the outside and become a god himself and then enact TTT through the hearts and minds of all people. Everyone will worship him as a god when he dies (probably at the end of the series), with the Zeumi prince going home to spread the good word of the Aspect Emperor's heroic sacrifice for all humanity. Everyone worships him, he gets to not only not be damned but to feast on everyone's soul and blot out all the other gods so only he remains. By pledging their souls to him, sorcerers escape eternal damnation...meaning what he said is kind of true and he is a prophet. A prophet of himself.
The ordeal will founder at Dagliash. Some type of elaborate double cross with the nonmen who are allied with the consult. Kellhus has anticipated it and fakes his death and heads to Golgotteroth, possibly with the remnants of the Mandate and some of the Swayali (the destruction of the Mandate's army was a deliberate sacrifice to convince the Consult they are spent). The Ordeal will be besieged at Dagliash, subsisting on Sranc meat and fanatacism. Lead by Proyas (who knows Kellhus isn't dead) they will hold out, keeping the consult busy. Kayutas will be key to stopping the skin spies from infiltrating.
The ordeal will founder at Dagliash. Some type of elaborate double cross with the nonmen who are allied with the consult. Kellhus has anticipated it and fakes his death and heads to Golgotteroth, possibly with the remnants of the Mandate and some of the Swayali (the destruction of the Mandate's army was a deliberate sacrifice to convince the Consult they are spent). The Ordeal will be besieged at Dagliash, subsisting on Sranc meat and fanatacism. Lead by Proyas (who knows Kellhus isn't dead) they will hold out, keeping the consult busy. Kayutas will be key to stopping the skin spies from infiltrating.
Skin spies can't hide in an Anasurimbor's presence, but I'm hoping for at least one scene where a skin spy causes a major disruption by impersonating an Anasurimbor!
That is a brilliant idea. With The Ordeal as large as it is, there may be brief opportunities for that. Maybe that is why they where Nimil, something rare enough that it adds more difficult in replacing one of the Anasurimbor (even for just a brief time) without notice.
I am excited about the kneeling scene as well. Seswatha kneeled over Celmomas' dying bod ;)
If power in the Outside does hinge on the number of a believers, Kellhus may need the No-God to return to vindicate his claims. Then the Great Ordeal serves as sacrifice for Kellhus' ascension/death plus they are evangelists to return to the 3 seas and Zeum to encourage belief in the right direction.
EDIT: @ Wilshire - oooohhhh that's cool, the prophecy is true as Akka kneels at the feet of the dying warrior prophet! :)
Cleric killed 5 Wracu, Kellhus needs to top that.
Also, I wanna know how Nau'Cayuti took down a Wracu.
Well, if they rediscovered how to construct more Wracu, I do see how they lose.
@ Madness - I liked Reign of Fire too. Don't know why it isn't more liked.
I want to know how any non-sorcerer takes down a Wracu...
Van Zan in Reign of Fire anyone?
Aside, I really dislike how this whole McConaissance implied that he never did anything good before now...
(i.e. destroy the single male dragon - wtf... how convenient and utterly stupid).
Such a glorious death would be worthy of an epic ballad. "Do it for the ballad." has presumably been the Medieval equivalent of "Do it for the vine."
Since The Aspect Emperor was a title mentioned in the preceding books, my prediction is...
The Solitary God
Another "Ark" crashes and creates the 6th "map circle"... What comes out? Non-erratic and immortal Nonmen. Just in time to save what is left of TGO.
I've always asked how far does that "No-God feeling" permeate. Everyone can feel him, does that include all living things in the universe. I thought if it was felt universally then other folk may turn up.
In scale the Non-man-Inchoroi wars seem to be a much larger "spectacle" laser weapons vs Sorcery a gender eliminated. A war lasting hundreds of years.
Until the No-God is alive and controlling the weapon races, it's just not as big an event. 2 Inchies and the consult versus Kellhus. This time the option of zerging is open with the No-god, but i think the No-God threat is more nuanced than he can get tens of millions of sranc to run in the same direction.
So yeah i've always thought there is a possibility other Inchies might turn up, the No-God being some sort of homing beacon.
I'd guess the Mog feeling could potentially include all ensouled creatures.
MG I kind of like those thoughts. It does seem a bit odd that a rthey would continue along there quest and waste so many lives [their own race].
The return of the inchoroi would make a good fan fix at least.
new end to TUC: Kellhus wipes out the Consult heirarchy, seizes control of the Derived via the Mog Apparatus and boards the Ark with the Derived, the Great Ordeal, and the Dunyain. the Ark is repaired and launches towards the Nail of Heaven which is revealed as the Inchoroi homeworld. Kellhus pulls an Ender Wiggin move: permanently eliminate the threat at it's source
while i'm thinking about it--Inchoroi motivation still baffles me. i can't understand why they would incur unnecessary risks while their stated goal is to avoid damnation (like antagonizing nonmen).
so Aurang and Aurax anticipating reinforcements?
That's always been my take as well, their rational course of action is to just stay near Golgotterath behind half a continent of sranc Bashrags and Wracu and amuse themselves with what they have there.Even if they have some anti-topoi technology (and they should, for their common habits are actually nothing short of topoi-production line), there is always a chance of malfunction & meeting some Outside in your WC. Weapon races are seems kinda useless against horde of ciphrang swarming out of some freaking-big portal to feast on the immortal immoral sorcerers (both halaroi, cunuroi & inchoroi).
The books says he kills the aspect emperor not kellhus, which might be splitting hairs. Also the aspect emperor has to block a sword blow with his own sword, when the skin spy leaped at him in TJE he immobilized it with sorcery.
Also Maithanet was killed while being identified as using cheap dye which might indicate something, or it might be he can't get good dye as the Fanim have been attacking while Esmi has been hiding out in a tent.
Personally i believe he was saying you must tell my brother..S. as he died. Why bring them up their existence previously? How could esmi tell Kellhus anything anyway? So why would it just be brother?
Cheap dye,cryptic message, reveal of having had brothers, also pauses noted in text when he is replying around the subject. I don't know anything about literary analysis but i have alarm bells ringing :D
If in fact WLW does kill Kellhus, I doub tit will be before Kellhus accomplishes whatever it is he wants to accomplish. There is no way for WLW and AE to be in the same space until after the Ordeal is defeated/succeeds, and Kellhus returns to give word to his Empire.
If in fact WLW does kill Kellhus, I doub tit will be before Kellhus accomplishes whatever it is he wants to accomplish. There is no way for WLW and AE to be in the same space until after the Ordeal is defeated/succeeds, and Kellhus returns to give word to his Empire.
Why not? The WLW can travel to Golgotterath. It would be the easiest journey ever considering how he just "lucks" in to everything. Seriously. I don't expect him to hang around the Three Seas until Kellhus gets back.