The Second Apocalypse

Earwa => The Aspect-Emperor => The Unholy Consult => Topic started by: Jabberwock03 on March 06, 2018, 11:03:57 am

Title: [TUC Spoilers] - Cnaïur/Ajokli theory
Post by: Jabberwock03 on March 06, 2018, 11:03:57 am
Hi guys,

First, I'm new here so hello everyone, and I have so many questions about those books! Damn I love that serie! I have something like 20 open pages of this forum and reddit about the Second Apocalypse!

But I wanted to discuss some theory about the last book (I don't think I have read it anywhere yet, but maybe I just didn't looked enough). Oh and I'm French, so maybe something contradict my idea in the book and I missed it (no french translation for the Aspect-Emperor serie, that's why I just finished the last book even if I started it few weeks after the release). I kinda get that some part are hard to read even for native speakers ;D ! Anyway, I'll try to organise my thoughts and write in english as well as I can.

So, here is my idea. In my reading it make sens that Cnaïur isn't possessed by Ajokli at the end as I can read in many places, but instead become Ajokli.
Reading the books in english was hard enough so I didn't have rereading them (yet), but here are few things:
I think I remember both of them being called "prince of hate".
When Mimara watch him with the JE she say it's weird and he is not just damned but some kind of demon already.
At the end, when Cnaïur speak with his tribe and his son, he tell something like "you know what I am, and if you fuck with my son I'll kick yo ass even if I'm dead" (very bad paraphrasing).
The gods are timeless so him become a god at the end of the book wouldn't contradict kellhus possessed before Cnaïur die. Plus I think the glossary tell something about Ajokli not being like the other gods.
Many other little things would make sens, like him being a big shard to begin with, and the many swazonds helping his soul grow (all the dead would be souls clamed by his own in the outside).
Finally, wouldn't be the best vengeance against Kellhus to trick him and control him, and at last seize him when he is in the GR (even if that part didn't work as expect, thanks Kelmomas)?

So what do you think? I would love him reaching the godhood status by pure hate against Kellhus!
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] - Cnaïur/Ajokli theory
Post by: SmilerLoki on March 06, 2018, 12:32:37 pm
So, here is my idea. In my reading it make sens that Cnaïur isn't possessed by Ajokli at the end as I can read in many places, but instead become Ajokli.
Many people indeed think so.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] - Cnaïur/Ajokli theory
Post by: H on March 06, 2018, 12:50:31 pm
I mean, it is plausible, but while some of Ajokli's traits certainly line up, others really do not.  So, where Ajokli is the Prince of Hate, he is also a trickster, something that doesn't really describe Cnaiur.  I think, more likely, is that Ajokli takes the mantle of Cnaiur because there is overlap and so, in that sense, there is an "opening" for which Ajokli can come through.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] - Cnaïur/Ajokli theory
Post by: Wilshire on March 06, 2018, 01:08:02 pm
Hi guys,

First, I'm new here so hello everyone, and I have so many questions about those books! Damn I love that serie! I have something like 20 open pages of this forum and reddit about the Second Apocalypse!

But I wanted to discuss some theory about the last book (I don't think I have read it anywhere yet, but maybe I just didn't looked enough). Oh and I'm French, so maybe something contradict my idea in the book and I missed it (no french translation for the Aspect-Emperor serie, that's why I just finished the last book even if I started it few weeks after the release). I kinda get that some part are hard to read even for native speakers ;D ! Anyway, I'll try to organise my thoughts and write in english as well as I can.
Welcome! We have many international members :) I'm glad you found us.

As you said, The Second Apocalypse (TSA) is difficult enough and I speak the language its written lol. Hopefully  we can help. T

We do have a penchant for using acronyms and shorthand, which probably translate poorly, especially when talking about the book titles. I know that the french names for at least the first three differ slightly, so here's a list of all the acronyms we use for the books

TSA - The Second Apocalypse

PON - Prince of Nothing (Trilogy 1)
TDTCB - The Darkness That Comes Before (Book 1)
TWP - The Warrior Prophet (Book 2)
TTT - The Thousandfold Thought (Book 3)

TAE - The Aspect- Emperor (Trilogy 2)
TJE - The Judging Eye (Book 1)
WLW- The White Luck Warrior (Book 2)
TGO - The Great Ordeal (Book 3)
TUC - The Unholy Consult (Book 4)

TNG - The No-God (Trilogy 3)
According to Bakker, this consists of 2 books. One of them we refer to as The Crabikiad - long story behind that name. The other remains nameless.

Sorry if that was already obvious to you.

So, here is my idea. In my reading it make sens that Cnaïur isn't possessed by Ajokli at the end as I can read in many places, but instead become Ajokli.
I'm not sure there's much of a difference. I think the general idea is that Ajokli can fully posses his victims. Just like how Ajokli overtakes Kellhus in the Golden room, so too does he take control of Cnaiur.

When Ajokli is in control, there is nothing left of the other person in the body. Ajokli inhabits the body, and the previous soul is pushed to the outside. In Kellhus' circumstance, he was able to come back, and I think this is because Ajokli chose to switch places with Kellhus' soul in the outside when Kelmomas showed up.

I think I remember both of them being called "prince of hate".
"Both of them" referring to Cnaiur and Ajokli?
I can't remember for certain, but this seems correct.

When Mimara watch him with the JE she say it's weird and he is not just damned but some kind of demon already.
"Not just damned" - or even the most damned creature she ever saw.
Cnaiur's smoking swazond was an amazing scene.

You might recall that Kosotor also looked like a demon of some kind when Mimara looked at him.

At the end, when Cnaïur speak with his tribe and his son, he tell something like "you know what I am, and if you fuck with my son I'll kick yo ass even if I'm dead" (very bad paraphrasing).
I think this was more of an esoteric threat. Something that Cnaiur said to make his followers fear him from beyond the grave. I don't think that Cnaiur, or the Scylvendi, knew that Cnaiur was going to be a Ciphrang (if that is even what happened).


The gods are timeless so him become a god at the end of the book wouldn't contradict kellhus possessed before Cnaïur die.
There is a lot of confusion surrounding the timelessness of the gods. I do agree with you: Ajokli is fully capable of possessing both Kellhus and Cnaiur.


Plus I think the glossary tell something about Ajokli not being like the other gods.
There are some quotes throughout the books that suggest Ajokli is special in some way. I don't think there's much proof that says exactly how or why.


Many other little things would make sens, like him being a big shard to begin with, and the many swazonds helping his soul grow (all the dead would be souls clamed by his own in the outside).
I'm not sure Cnaiur started out big, but he certainly ended up that way.
There certainly does seem to be something to the swazond and the soul collecting. If anyone could be a Ciphrang, it would be Cnaiur.


Finally, wouldn't be the best vengeance against Kellhus to trick him and control him, and at last seize him when he is in the GR (even if that part didn't work as expect, thanks Kelmomas)?

Oh, I see now what you mean. You're theory is that Ajokli is Cnaiur. Or put another way, that Cnaiur became Ajokli.

That's a pretty interesting idea. I'm going to have to think on it some.

So what do you think? I would love him reaching the godhood status by pure hate against Kellhus!

Great thoughts! Thanks for posting.
Whatever you do, don't feel the need to search everywhere before you make a new topic or ask a question. Just start posting :)

I mean, it is plausible, but while some of Ajokli's traits certainly line up, others really do not.  So, where Ajokli is the Prince of Hate, he is also a trickster, something that doesn't really describe Cnaiur.  I think, more likely, is that Ajokli takes the mantle of Cnaiur because there is overlap and so, in that sense, there is an "opening" for which Ajokli can come through.
I'm not so sure that "The Trickster God" is a particularly good description of Ajokli anyway. Cunning, sure, and smart, able to make people do things. A great tactician. All these things, while perhaps could be considered tricky, calling them tricky, or labeling Ajokli as a 'trickster' really misses the mark. In my opinion at least.

Cnaiur becoming the Ajokli we see at the end of TUC makes a lot of sense. There is a lot of poetic justice to it, and it fits with the reoccurring theme of people creating their own demise
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] - Cnaïur/Ajokli theory
Post by: Jabberwock03 on March 06, 2018, 01:10:31 pm
So, here is my idea. In my reading it make sens that Cnaïur isn't possessed by Ajokli at the end as I can read in many places, but instead become Ajokli.
Many people indeed think so.

Too many thread to read. But at least my idea isn't plain stupid, which is nice ;D !
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] - Cnaïur/Ajokli theory
Post by: Jabberwock03 on March 06, 2018, 01:21:10 pm
Finally, wouldn't be the best vengeance against Kellhus to trick him and control him, and at last seize him when he is in the GR (even if that part didn't work as expect, thanks Kelmomas)?

Oh, I see now what you mean. You're theory is that Ajokli is Cnaiur. Or put another way, that Cnaiur became Ajokli.

That's a pretty interesting idea. I'm going to have to think on it some.

So what do you think? I would love him reaching the godhood status by pure hate against Kellhus!

Great thoughts! Thanks for posting.
Whatever you do, don't feel the need to search everywhere before you make a new topic or ask a question. Just start posting :)

I mean, it is plausible, but while some of Ajokli's traits certainly line up, others really do not.  So, where Ajokli is the Prince of Hate, he is also a trickster, something that doesn't really describe Cnaiur.  I think, more likely, is that Ajokli takes the mantle of Cnaiur because there is overlap and so, in that sense, there is an "opening" for which Ajokli can come through.
I'm not so sure that "The Trickster God" is a particularly good description of Ajokli anyway. Cunning, sure, and smart, able to make people do things. A great tactician. All these things, while perhaps could be considered tricky, calling them tricky, or labeling Ajokli as a 'trickster' really misses the mark. In my opinion at least.

Cnaiur becoming the Ajokli we see at the end of TUC makes a lot of sense. There is a lot of poetic justice to it, and it fits with the reoccurring theme of people creating their own demise

Exactly what I was trying to say.
In in timeless timeline (WTF?), it would be something like that:
- The world exist
- Cnaïur is born
- shit happens
- Cnaïur is so freaking mad and his soul is very big thanks to all the souls he collected with his swazonds
- Cnaïur run into the srank sea and his soul overflow the reality as the place is a topoi
- But his soul is in fact Ajokli
- His body die
- Ajokli (Cnaïur soul) is officially born
- As gods are timeless, Ajokli has always existed in the outside
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] - Cnaïur/Ajokli theory
Post by: Wilshire on March 06, 2018, 01:25:35 pm
lol yes, that sounds about right, or at least internally consistent.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] - Cnaïur/Ajokli theory
Post by: ThoughtsOfThelli on March 06, 2018, 02:12:36 pm
First of all, welcome to the forum, Jabberwock03! :) I'm glad to see a fellow European around.


I think this is a pretty interesting theory. Like others have said, this possibility has been pointed out before, but not fully developed into a theory like you've done here.

Exactly what I was trying to say.
In in timeless timeline (WTF?), it would be something like that:
- The world exist
- Cnaïur is born
- shit happens
- Cnaïur is so freaking mad and his soul is very big thanks to all the souls he collected with his swazonds
- Cnaïur run into the srank sea and his soul overflow the reality as the place is a topoi
- But his soul is in fact Ajokli
- His body die
- Ajokli (Cnaïur soul) is officially born
- As gods are timeless, Ajokli has always existed in the outside

So you're saying that in a linear "zero" timeline, Cnaiür would have become Ajokli by the end of TUC by virtue of his hatred. The nature of Gods in Eärwa determine that Cnaiür had always been/would always be Ajokli, and so he was/is/will be. As Wilshire said, it makes sense. I kind of hope this is actually the case, but who knows, it might go unexplained until the very end of the series.


Cnaiur becoming the Ajokli we see at the end of TUC makes a lot of sense. There is a lot of poetic justice to it, and it fits with the reoccurring theme of people creating their own demise

So true...
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] - Cnaïur/Ajokli theory
Post by: Jabberwock03 on March 06, 2018, 02:17:30 pm
Well, if it goes unexplained, or Bakker didn't even thought about it, I know I will go with this explanation of that scene and Cnaïur fate in my mind. I think it's so damn epic that a mad guy is so hateful and spiritually powerful that he become a soul as strong as any other gods.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] - Cnaïur/Ajokli theory
Post by: Madness on March 06, 2018, 03:04:35 pm
Welcome to the Second Apocalypse, Jabberwock :).
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] - Cnaïur/Ajokli theory
Post by: Jabberwock03 on March 06, 2018, 03:40:30 pm
Thanks!
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] - Cnaïur/Ajokli theory
Post by: MSJ on March 06, 2018, 06:18:19 pm
Welcome, Jabberwock!

As someone else said the idea has been tossed around a lot. It wasn't my initial reading, but like Wilshire said, a lot of poetic justice if thays the case. I think the timelessness of the Gods allows it to be true. And, one thing you left out, "What comes After determines that which comes before.", was heavily tauted by Bakker in all interviews post TUC. Also, it makes Cnaüir's sudden appearance again in TGO more credible. I like the theory, it has just seems as if we some times out think what Bakker is really trying to convey, so one never knows. Great post!
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] - Cnaïur/Ajokli theory
Post by: icarium90 on March 09, 2018, 03:23:15 pm
I have to admit, that i have never thought about it. It is a very interesting theory. So i thought there are some things, which would back this theory.

1. The difference how Ajolki manifested in Kellhus and in Cnaiür (I am not 100% sure, but as far as i remember the head of Kellhus hurst into flames, while Cnaiür became Ajokli in a more gradual way. I know that it took awhile for Ajokli to manifest in Kellhus but somehow i think this two manifestations were different)

2. In the books or glossary there are hints that Ajokli is different from other gods.
That somehow he can sense or conceive more than the others from the 100. So I thought this is because he was "born" in Erwa unlike the other gods who are directly from the Outside.


3. Another possible hint that Golgotterath is the place where Ajokli became or was "born" is how the glossary mentions the Horns as two of the four Horns of Ajokli.

Yeah i think that my thoughts are far fetched and probably bullshit but i just wanted to throw my two cent about this theory :D


Maybe this was the big thing Bakker mentioned in the AMA that the readers didn‘t see and overlooked. Or has this been already resolved what exactly Bakker meant :)? 


(Oh and sorry for possible mispellings. English is my second language) 


 
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] - Cnaïur/Ajokli theory
Post by: SuJuroit on March 09, 2018, 06:15:52 pm
As others have said, in Earwa what comes after determines what comes before AND the gods exist outside of time.  So it's entirely possible that Ajokli was "born" when Cnaiur walked into the whirlwind.  Cnaiur certainly had enough hatred to fit the bill as the Prince of Hate, although the trickster aspect seems lacking.  Still, I find it quite plausible.  Especially when you consider the priesthood of Ajokli deemed murder to be holy.  That sounds familiar...

Insofar as Ajokli being "different" from other gods, that's because he has access to a reverse prophet; Kellhus.  Kellhus brings him news from the Inward, and that allows him to see what the other gods can't see, know what they can't know. 
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] - Cnaïur/Ajokli theory
Post by: MSJ on March 09, 2018, 09:05:31 pm
@icarium90 (love the handle, btw).

I think youve outlined a lot, as well as others at to why Cnaüir indeed did become Ajokli. In was against it at first, not for personal reasons, just my reading of the story. So many aspects make it very plausible that it is the case. Ajokli was born on the Fields Appalling under the shadow of the Ark. Lines up with myth perfectly. Maybe this is the boat Bakker talked about us missing.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] - Cnaïur/Ajokli theory
Post by: Jabberwock03 on March 09, 2018, 10:31:42 pm
As others have said, in Earwa what comes after determines what comes before AND the gods exist outside of time.  So it's entirely possible that Ajokli was "born" when Cnaiur walked into the whirlwind.  Cnaiur certainly had enough hatred to fit the bill as the Prince of Hate, although the trickster aspect seems lacking.  Still, I find it quite plausible.  Especially when you consider the priesthood of Ajokli deemed murder to be holy.  That sounds familiar...

Insofar as Ajokli being "different" from other gods, that's because he has access to a reverse prophet; Kellhus.  Kellhus brings him news from the Inward, and that allows him to see what the other gods can't see, know what they can't know.

About that trickster thing, I have an idea. As I understand it, Ajokli fuck up your plans at the last second and that's why he's called trickster. But Cnaiur was manipulated by a dunyain ... And twice! So I would get why Ajokli like to be an ass with people who have "a plan". People with plan can go to hell (literally), you want something? Fine, kill your way to it! Don't mess around with a plan or Ajokli will kick your ass!

 In my mind it fit.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] - Cnaïur/Ajokli theory
Post by: ThoughtsOfThelli on March 10, 2018, 07:39:38 pm
About that trickster thing, I have an idea. As I understand it, Ajokli fuck up your plans at the last second and that's why he's called trickster. But Cnaiur was manipulated by a dunyain ... And twice! So I would get why Ajokli like to be an ass with people who have "a plan". People with plan can go to hell (literally), you want something? Fine, kill your way to it! Don't mess around with a plan or Ajokli will kick your ass!

 In my mind it fit.

That can very well be the case, and I've wondered if it's possible that Cnaiür's personality was somewhat warped after his ascension from human to Ciphrang/god. That could explain it too, perhaps?

Also, wasn't there a moment in TWP(?) where Cnaiür seemed to be possessed by Gilgaöl in the battlefield? Maybe that was an early manifestation of Ajokli seeping in into his past/future (remember that there was already a Gilgaöl/Ajokli debate concerning Celmomas' vision, so the two could very well be mistaken for each other).
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] - Cnaïur/Ajokli theory
Post by: MSJ on March 10, 2018, 08:09:51 pm
Quote from: Wilshire
That can very well be the case, and I've wondered if it's possible that Cnaiür's personality was somewhat warped after his ascension from human to Ciphrang/god. That could explain it too, perhaps.

Thought the exact thing when I read. God Cnaüir is likely to be different then human Cnaüir. Matter of fact, people have expressed angles were it makes sense already. Its the boat we missed y'all.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] - Cnaïur/Ajokli theory
Post by: SmilerLoki on March 10, 2018, 10:04:45 pm
Thought the exact thing when I read. God Cnaüir is likely to be different then human Cnaüir. Matter of fact, people have expressed angles were it makes sense already. Its the boat we missed y'all.
Since this was the initial take, only disputed after (and unrelated) to Bakker's Q&As, I highly doubt that. People thought that Cnaiur actually became Ajokli from the very beginning.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] - Cnaïur/Ajokli theory
Post by: Jabberwock03 on March 12, 2018, 10:06:19 am
Quote from: ThoughtsOfThelli
That can very well be the case, and I've wondered if it's possible that Cnaiür's personality was somewhat warped after his ascension from human to Ciphrang/god. That could explain it too, perhaps.

Thought the exact thing when I read. God Cnaüir is likely to be different then human Cnaüir. Matter of fact, people have expressed angles were it makes sense already. Its the boat we missed y'all.

I see it like when ascending, his worst personality traits would be exacerbated at their maximum. So yes it would be a bit different from human Cnaïur, but it would still originate from him.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] - Cnaïur/Ajokli theory
Post by: Wilshire on March 12, 2018, 03:03:06 pm
Really thew me off misquoting that lol.

"Quote from: Wilshire -    That can very well be ..."
Is not from me, its from ThoughtsOfThelli ;)
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] - Cnaïur/Ajokli theory
Post by: Jabberwock03 on March 13, 2018, 02:56:18 pm
Corrected.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] - Cnaïur/Ajokli theory
Post by: Monkhound on March 15, 2018, 06:30:59 pm
@icarium90 (love the handle, btw).

I think youve outlined a lot, as well as others at to why Cnaüir indeed did become Ajokli. In was against it at first, not for personal reasons, just my reading of the story. So many aspects make it very plausible that it is the case. Ajokli was born on the Fields Appalling under the shadow of the Ark. Lines up with myth perfectly. Maybe this is the boat Bakker talked about us missing.

It would also make sense of the remark that Bakker was'nt sure at the end of TTT if the final aspect dominating Kellhus (can't find the right wording...) would be Gilgaöl or Ajokli, as Cnaiür is both a personification of War and of and Hatred (sry, I can't remember exactly where I read that which I'm quoting).

In addition it would make sense of Cnaïur's obsession with defeating Kellhus: During PON Cnaïur is often described watching/ observing Kellhus for the slightest moment Kellhus would lower his guard/ moment of weakness. This patient waiting could be described as a form not of trickery,  but cunning...
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] - Cnaïur/Ajokli theory
Post by: Wilshire on March 15, 2018, 07:01:53 pm
Yeah that was basically what he said. This explains most, or at least some, of the narrative confusion with Gilgaol and Ajolki.

I wonder though if you can fully just replace all (or nearly all) mentions of Gilgaol in PON with Ajokli?

IMO I like to think that most of what we thought was Gilgaol was actually Ajokli, except maybe some of the non-hate-fueled battled sequences where Gilgaol is mentioned.

Its kind of strange, not knowing this, that Gilgaol gets several mentions in PON but seemingly far fewer in TAE.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] - Cnaïur/Ajokli theory
Post by: MisterGuyMan on March 18, 2018, 11:29:38 pm
I actually think the ambiguity between the horned visages between Ajokli and Gilgaöl will continue to play a part.  If anything I think Cnauir became and has always been Gilgaöl.  There's more reason thematically and narratively for Kell to become the Trickster.

IMO it's all but guaranteed that Kell and Cnauir are huge entities in the outside.  Kell sees himself descend as hunger in the inverse fire.  The Judging Eye confirms Cnauir is a Prince of Hell.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] - Cnaïur/Ajokli theory
Post by: Wilshire on March 19, 2018, 01:49:43 pm
They should be at odds with eachother in the Outside - that would just make sense. Kellhus as Ajokli  and Cnaiur as Gilgaol.

Unfortunately, with Gilgaol absent in TUC (plot-wise), there seems less of a chance. "Prince of Hell" seems to indicate Ajokli, and obviously Kellhus' everything seems to indicate Ajokli as well. But, either could be either, maybe Kellhus is Gilgaol? He does war with everything ...

If you think about Gilgaol's place in the Outside (allegedly the strongest god except for maybe Yatwer) and Ajokli (Outcast of the Gods, plotting against them to overthrow them, etc.) it kind of makes sense to put Kellhus in there as Gilgaol and Cnaiur as Ajokli. Maybe not so much character personality, but big-picture plotwise you can kind of shoehorn it in there?
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] - Cnaïur/Ajokli theory
Post by: Monkhound on March 21, 2018, 04:00:29 pm
An idea that popped into my head while I was reading this discussion, was the following: Could both Cnaiür and Kellhus have become Ajokli in the end, in a similar way to both Kelmomas and Samarmas became the No-God? Duality and opposition are a recurring theme, and I'm still looking as to why. Any thoughts?
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] - Cnaïur/Ajokli theory
Post by: TaoHorror on March 21, 2018, 11:25:08 pm
An idea that popped into my head while I was reading this discussion, was the following: Could both Cnaiür and Kellhus have become Ajokli in the end, in a similar way to both Kelmomas and Samarmas became the No-God? Duality and opposition are a recurring theme, and I'm still looking as to why. Any thoughts?

Well, my first read was along these lines - I thought Ajokli "became" Kellhus and then he "became" Cnaiur. But I guess I was off on that after much discussion here in TSA. Your point does make some sense as in there is some relationship between the 3, just not sure what.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] - Cnaïur/Ajokli theory
Post by: Wilshire on March 22, 2018, 11:37:04 am
I have trouble imagining that both of them became Ajokli in any shared way. That particular god doesn't war against itself but with others.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] - Cnaïur/Ajokli theory
Post by: TaoHorror on March 22, 2018, 01:53:46 pm
I have trouble imagining that both of them became Ajokli in any shared way. That particular god doesn't war against itself but with others.

Well ... he's tricky. Maybe this is how it looks to a human ( we readers ) when a god changes his mind/changes course outside of time.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] - Cnaïur/Ajokli theory
Post by: Walter on March 22, 2018, 02:30:06 pm
The No-God rewrites the Gods every time it interferes with their plans, right?  That is, their agents inhabit a world where they are destined to succeed, and have been so since the dawn of time, a la the WLW.  When Kelmomas fouls their plans the world transitions to one where they have ALWAYS been doomed to fail, and the Gods are overwritten in the same manner.

So when Kelmomas destroyed the first WLW's destiny Yatwer had retroactively never chosen him, her choice all along was Sorweel, who was totally destined to succeed.  When Sorweel was likewise pushed off the rails she presumably had always been pinning all her hopes on whoever her current guy is.

Ajokli is the same way.  He had always been planning to possess Kellhus.  When Kelmomas ruined that it retroactively was never his plan at all.  He had always been planning on using Cnaiur against Kellhus, which he attempts at the finale.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] - Cnaïur/Ajokli theory
Post by: themerchant on March 28, 2018, 10:12:40 pm
Cnaiur tricks the consult into thinking he would fight for them.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] - Cnaïur/Ajokli theory
Post by: TaoHorror on March 29, 2018, 12:35:36 am
The No-God rewrites the Gods every time it interferes with their plans, right?  That is, their agents inhabit a world where they are destined to succeed, and have been so since the dawn of time, a la the WLW.  When Kelmomas fouls their plans the world transitions to one where they have ALWAYS been doomed to fail, and the Gods are overwritten in the same manner.

So when Kelmomas destroyed the first WLW's destiny Yatwer had retroactively never chosen him, her choice all along was Sorweel, who was totally destined to succeed.  When Sorweel was likewise pushed off the rails she presumably had always been pinning all her hopes on whoever her current guy is.

Ajokli is the same way.  He had always been planning to possess Kellhus.  When Kelmomas ruined that it retroactively was never his plan at all.  He had always been planning on using Cnaiur against Kellhus, which he attempts at the finale.

Very cool way of putting it, Walter - nicely done :)
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] - Cnaïur/Ajokli theory
Post by: stuslayer on April 01, 2018, 06:32:49 pm
Hi all, been reading this thread with interest. I've not picked up the books in a while, but this got me thinking. I can't remember if the Hundred (scripturewise) exist before or after Arkfall? If it is after, is it possible that the Inchoroi brough Ajokli with them when they crashed? The damnation they've been trying to escape is Ajokli's Hell, and that his 'agency' in Earwa is thanks to the Inchies, unable to escape him and bringing him with them? It would kind of fit with what the Consult are trying to achieve, and perhaps on a world with meaning, they finally have a chance to outwit him - then along comes Kelhus and buggers it all up. Just a line of thought, but interesting maybe? It would also explain why he is different to the rest of the gods, the connection implied with the Horns of Golgotterath, etc.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] - Cnaïur/Ajokli theory
Post by: TaoHorror on April 02, 2018, 01:18:33 am
Hi all, been reading this thread with interest. I've not picked up the books in a while, but this got me thinking. I can't remember if the Hundred (scripturewise) exist before or after Arkfall? If it is after, is it possible that the Inchoroi brough Ajokli with them when they crashed? The damnation they've been trying to escape is Ajokli's Hell, and that his 'agency' in Earwa is thanks to the Inchies, unable to escape him and bringing him with them? It would kind of fit with what the Consult are trying to achieve, and perhaps on a world with meaning, they finally have a chance to outwit him - then along comes Kelhus and buggers it all up. Just a line of thought, but interesting maybe? It would also explain why he is different to the rest of the gods, the connection implied with the Horns of Golgotterath, etc.

Man, you people are so smart coming up with this stuff, makes me feel small. Even if this misses the mark, it's impressive thinking on your part, thanks for bringing this up. Maybe the smarts will rub off on me one day.

If it wasn't for this forum, I would have no fricken idea about any of this stuff - and quite frankly, I still don't, but you cats got me thinking ...
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] - Cnaïur/Ajokli theory
Post by: MSJ on April 02, 2018, 04:02:15 am
No, gods existed waaaay before Arkfall. Its what makes Earwa the Inchoroi's promised land because its connection to the Outside. Besides that, the Nonmen were trying to avoid damnation before Arkfall also, hence the mansions.

The more I think on it, the OP is close to the mark I believe. The stuff about Ajokli being a companion of the Gods and all that, Ajokli is different than the rest.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] - Cnaïur/Ajokli theory
Post by: Wilshire on April 02, 2018, 01:12:19 pm
With the information we have, we know the Nonmen had some kind of god myths, or at least creation stories of some kind. We also know that the men over in Eanna had their own gods tha they worshiped.

Granted I don't know if that really counts as proof that gods actually existed before the Inchoroi came around, but at least men and nonmen both believed in them.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] - Cnaïur/Ajokli theory
Post by: mrganondorf on April 02, 2018, 01:42:18 pm
Hi Walter!  I'm torn about Ajokli.  Part of me just thinks he's different in degree and not kind.  Yatwer can see sranc but not mog.  Ajokli can't see mog but he knows that he's missing something so he gets a man to deliver a report.  Ajokli knows something is casting a shadow and uses it to his advantage.

All of that makes me think different in degree and not kind, however...

The way Yatwer/Yatwerians regard 'hungers' as special and deplorable is really odd.  Yatwer doesn't seem to refer to any other god as a hunger and no hungers are gods (although there is a part where a ciphrang is referred to as a godling).

Makes me wonder if that is the horizon demarcation in the Outside.  Above the line are the gods and the 'heavens,' below the line are the hungers/demons and the 'hells.'  I have to put bunny ears on that because I'm not sure that heaven is categorically different than hell in the sense that the gods are consuming their pets in both places. 

I get the vibe that hungers are displeasing to gods because of the manner and substance they eat.  Perhaps Yatwer looks down on Ajokli because what he considers food (wicked souls) are filth to her.  Ajokli may be looking to supplant Yatwer and co because he eats filth, yes, but only because that's what they leave him and he would consume all.

I almost get a class war vibe off Ajokli, like he is the underclass, the unrecognized god, almost another Yatwer but for souls in the Outside.  Ajokli wants to overthrow the order not just for food but also for resentment of his place.

I found this thing that makes me think Bakker's worldview can be traced back to...I've got to look it up
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] - Cnaïur/Ajokli theory
Post by: mrganondorf on April 02, 2018, 02:22:38 pm
Ok, kind of late in Dune, after Paul has an encounter with a certain substance...

Quote
Paul said: "There is in each of us an ancient force that takes and an
ancient force that gives. A man finds little difficulty facing that place within
himself where the taking force dwells, but it's almost impossible for him to see
into the giving force without changing into something other than man. For a
woman, the situation is reversed."

Jessica looked up, found Chani was staring at her while listening to Paul.

"Do you understand me, Mother?" Paul asked.

She could only nod.

"These things are so ancient within us," Paul said, "that they're ground
into each separate cell of our bodies. We're shaped by such forces. You can say
to yourself, 'Yes, I see how such a thing may be. ' But when you look inward and
confront the raw force of your own life unshielded, you see your peril. You see
that this could overwhelm you. The greatest peril to the Giver is the force that
takes. The greatest peril to the Taker is the force that gives. It's as easy to
be overwhelmed by giving as by taking."

This is why I think the Outside might boil down to polarizing forces of Yatwer and Ajokli/War; Giver and Taker
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] - Cnaïur/Ajokli theory
Post by: MSJ on April 02, 2018, 02:58:46 pm
Quote from:  Wilshire
With the information we have, we know the Nonmen had some kind of god myths, or at least creation stories of some kind. We also know that the men over in Eanna had their own gods tha they worshiped.

Granted I don't know if that really counts as proof that gods actually existed before the Inchoroi came around, but at least men and nonmen both believed in them.

Wilshire's famous quote, "We don't have enough information."

I call bullshit. Its the reasons the Nonmen dug out their Mansions in the first place and they are way older than Arkfall. They was using sorcery before Arkfall. I'm sure they stumbled across the Daimos before Arkfall. Those who made chorae (sorry, forget those fellows names was around and making chorae before Arkfall. They just didn't call them Gods, but principles.

I understand "we just don't have enough info", encourages conversation. But, all signs in the book point to the Gods existing before Arkfall, why else would it be the promised land??
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] - Cnaïur/Ajokli theory
Post by: Wilshire on April 02, 2018, 05:17:18 pm
Well first, I didn't say we don't have enough information, I simply pointed out what information we do have.

For any interested in learning more about the inter-workings of Wilshire's motivations, read on, though since its entirely tangential to the topic, I'm spoiler tagging it:
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] - Cnaïur/Ajokli theory
Post by: MSJ on April 02, 2018, 06:39:24 pm
Wilshire, I never meant it as an indictment. I understand your trying to foster conversation. ;)

But, all mythos and evidence points to Earwa always (maybe not always because as Bakker said the God split himself apart) having Gods. I already covered some of the evidence. But, I guess there is wiggle room for it not to be the case.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] - Cnaïur/Ajokli theory
Post by: stuslayer on April 02, 2018, 07:09:06 pm
Good to see more discussion around this. To be clear, I accept that Gods exist before Arkfall, but scripture is written by Men, so offers the possibility of the appearance of Ajokli as a native Earwan God as a later fabrication by the Inchies, manipulating Men for their own ends, as with the Tusk (I seem to remember Husyelt being an Inchie plant from somewhere). If the Inchies brought Ajokli with them (albeit unwillingly, like the beast on their backs they cannot shake), it would explain a few things - IF anyone?
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] - Cnaïur/Ajokli theory
Post by: MSJ on April 02, 2018, 07:24:35 pm
Fair enough. What would it explain in your eyes?
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] - Cnaïur/Ajokli theory
Post by: stuslayer on April 02, 2018, 07:49:41 pm
It would be reasonable to think that if the Inchies brought damnation with them, they would want to keep the source of that damnation to themselves. With the IF as the goad, they want to escape the fate it foretells, and deceit is a useful way to manipulate the natives to do what they want without knowing it i.e. to goad the Nonmen into Ajokli's damnation, perhaps hoping to postpone their own inevitable fall while they seek a solution. Once the Consult come up with the NG, they deploy it too soon - the plan goes awry and Seswatha etc. do their thing and win the day - resetting everything back to the status quo, with Ajokli continuing to reap souls and the Inchies/Consult back to square one. However, for a time the NG did work - no more souls born, and I think as a counterpart, no more souls going to Hell. So they bide their time, the Consult find ways to use tekne to extend their lives indefinitely while coming up with a better plan - seeds sewn by the original Ajokli deception lead to the events of the SA and Resumption. The manner of the events in the GR would suggest to me that Ajokli is as unexpected to the Consult as he is unseen by Kel, and only the ultimate blind soul of Kelmomas is the joker in the pack, unwittingly and unexpectedly firing up the Sarcophagus - the Consult simply took advantage of providence.

Sorry for the wall of text and the jumble of ideas, this is very steam of conciousness at the moment! It also explains references to Ajokli being different to other gods, references of him as the trickster - I think that the Inchies have always had that in their 'nature', the potential deceit of Men through the Tusk (a vehicle to include Ajokli in the Earwan pantheon), the deceit of the Nonmen with the Womb Plague/Innoculation, the drawing of the Ordeal to Dagliash and the hidden nuke, etc etc. showing their 'trickiness'.

So to try and make sense of all I just wrote - Ajokli is the god of the Inchies, and not native Earwan, and he is essentially the god they deserve, his damnation being a reflection of their extreme hedonism and almost a karmic result of how they live.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] - Cnaïur/Ajokli theory
Post by: themerchant on April 02, 2018, 08:30:39 pm
The non-man creation story is about running from the gods. So they existed in the minds of the non-men in their oldest stories.

So we probably do "know" the gods existed before arkfall or the concept did anyway.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] - Cnaïur/Ajokli theory
Post by: stuslayer on April 02, 2018, 10:04:33 pm
Again, I agree - my point is purely about Ajokli's place in the Earwan pantheon, and his ultimate origin being different to that of the rest of the Hundred.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] - Cnaïur/Ajokli theory
Post by: SmilerLoki on April 03, 2018, 07:16:52 am
I'm not sure the question of Ajokli existing before the Arkfall makes sense considering the atemporal nature of the Gods and the Outside. The Gods existed "always" from the temporal perspective, and by virtue of their atemporal nature they see everything they can see, so they also existed "everywhere".

It doesn't strictly disproves this theory, though, just requires it to be formulated differently.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] - Cnaïur/Ajokli theory
Post by: Wilshire on April 03, 2018, 12:08:11 pm
Its certainly an interesting thought. Ajokli's nature of not being like the other gods is probably meaningful.

Maybe he was the first/only mortal being to ascend from moral to god status on death. Though that this happened on a world other than Earwa and was some nameless alien doesn't make for as compelling a narrative. Though, it does work well with the idea that Ajokli made the IF, etc. etc., so I like the though in concept.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] - Cnaïur/Ajokli theory
Post by: CiphrangBarbeque on April 05, 2018, 09:11:41 am
I mean, it is plausible, but while some of Ajokli's traits certainly line up, others really do not.  So, where Ajokli is the Prince of Hate, he is also a trickster, something that doesn't really describe Cnaiur.  I think, more likely, is that Ajokli takes the mantle of Cnaiur because there is overlap and so, in that sense, there is an "opening" for which Ajokli can come through.

I agree. I would be a little disappointed if Ajokli was Cnaiur in truth. As bad as he was, he had some principles and focused his hate mostly on the Dunyain. To become the greatest evil known to man would be surprising to me. Ajokli also tries to ally with the four mutilated Dunyain which I cannot imagine Cnaiur going along with.. unless it was trickery, which does not fit well with his character... I don't know, perhaps Godhood scrubbed away his personality. That would be kind of a let-down.

Hopefully, he becomes a separate entity in Hell. One which may challenge Ajokli for ruler-ship of Hell  :D
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] - Cnaïur/Ajokli theory
Post by: ThoughtsOfThelli on April 05, 2018, 11:29:32 am
I agree. I would be a little disappointed if Ajokli was Cnaiur in truth. As bad as he was, he had some principles and focused his hate mostly on the Dunyain. To become the greatest evil known to man would be surprising to me. Ajokli also tries to ally with the four mutilated Dunyain which I cannot imagine Cnaiur going along with.. unless it was trickery, which does not fit well with his character... I don't know, perhaps Godhood scrubbed away his personality. That would be kind of a let-down.

First of all, welcome to the forum! :)

I would agree to you only when it comes to Cnaiür in PON. Cnaiür in TAE seems to have lost what few redeeming characteristics he had before (of course, this may be subjective).

I could see Ajokli-Cnaiür "allying" with the Dûnyain as trickery. He did convince the Serwë skin-spy he was going to fight for the Consult, so it's not completely without precedent.
And/or becoming Ajokli could have warped original Cnaiür's personality to an extent, yes (which I suggested as a possibility before in this thread). The trickery hypothesis does seem to be more satisfying, doesn't it? ;)


Hopefully, he becomes a separate entity in Hell. One which may challenge Ajokli for ruler-ship of Hell  :D

Another interesting possibility...but if Ciphrang-Cnaiür was to challenge Ajokli and win, wouldn't he have always been "Ajokli" due to the Gods' nature anyway? ;)
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] - Cnaïur/Ajokli theory
Post by: SuJuroit on April 05, 2018, 05:39:27 pm
I mean, it is plausible, but while some of Ajokli's traits certainly line up, others really do not.  So, where Ajokli is the Prince of Hate, he is also a trickster, something that doesn't really describe Cnaiur.  I think, more likely, is that Ajokli takes the mantle of Cnaiur because there is overlap and so, in that sense, there is an "opening" for which Ajokli can come through.

I agree. I would be a little disappointed if Ajokli was Cnaiur in truth. As bad as he was, he had some principles and focused his hate mostly on the Dunyain. To become the greatest evil known to man would be surprising to me. Ajokli also tries to ally with the four mutilated Dunyain which I cannot imagine Cnaiur going along with.. unless it was trickery, which does not fit well with his character... I don't know, perhaps Godhood scrubbed away his personality. That would be kind of a let-down.

Hopefully, he becomes a separate entity in Hell. One which may challenge Ajokli for ruler-ship of Hell  :D

I didn't really see Ajokli's behavior with the Mutilated in the Golden Room as "allying" so much as "dominating".  It was basically a case of, "I'm boss ape and this is how it's gonna be.  What's that, you got something to say?  *HEAD ASPLODES*  Any other comments, questions, criticisms?  No?  Great, let's start harvesting some suffering."

Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] - Cnaïur/Ajokli theory
Post by: CiphrangBarbeque on April 06, 2018, 10:46:01 am
You both make good points SuJuroit and ThoughtsOfThelli. Damn, Kellhus REALLY should have killed him when he had the chance. Talk about a decision you a live to regret..
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] - Cnaïur/Ajokli theory
Post by: ThoughtsOfThelli on April 06, 2018, 12:00:08 pm
You both make good points SuJuroit and ThoughtsOfThelli. Damn, Kellhus REALLY should have killed him when he had the chance. Talk about a decision you a live to regret..

Just one of the things that shows us that Kellhus is not infallible. ;)
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] - Cnaïur/Ajokli theory
Post by: TaoHorror on April 06, 2018, 02:41:25 pm
You both make good points SuJuroit and ThoughtsOfThelli. Damn, Kellhus REALLY should have killed him when he had the chance. Talk about a decision you a live to regret..

Just one of the things that shows us that Kellhus is not infallible. ;)

My favorite tautology comes to mind ... maybe, maybe not. Could be Kellhus was completely in the dark about little Kel, but I think he had plans for that little fucker - "appears" Kellhus misplayed his hand, but I'm open to him being proud his son stepped up  :D

The game is not up - salted, but not done.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] - Cnaïur/Ajokli theory
Post by: Wilshire on April 09, 2018, 01:33:35 pm
The game is not up - salted, but not done.[/color]

What you're saying is to take the salt ... with a grain of salt?

I'd caution everyone to try not to become salty. Some salt adds flavor but too much can ruin the dish. And, if we're talking about Kellhus here, its probably a dish best served cold. We're constructing quite an entree here.

... ;)
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] - Cnaïur/Ajokli theory
Post by: TaoHorror on April 10, 2018, 12:40:40 am
Think I'll add that to my vocabulary - "honey, can you please pass the Kellhus?"
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] - Cnaïur/Ajokli theory
Post by: ThoughtsOfThelli on April 10, 2018, 03:14:44 pm
Think I'll add that to my vocabulary - "honey, can you please pass the Kellhus?"

Be careful, excess Kellhus in your diet might lead to hypertension. ;)
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] - Cnaïur/Ajokli theory
Post by: Wilshire on April 13, 2018, 01:33:56 pm
Some kind of cold salted pasta dish, probably pretty severe tasting though.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] - Cnaïur/Ajokli theory
Post by: Simas Polchias on April 18, 2018, 10:05:48 pm
So, here is my idea. In my reading it make sens that Cnaïur isn't possessed by Ajokli at the end as I can read in many places, but instead become Ajokli.

So... If IF is the portal to the Ajokli's domain and Ajokli ascended on Earwa, wasn't that the very reason inchoroi recognized that Earwa as promised land?

I have trouble imagining that both of them became Ajokli in any shared way. That particular god doesn't war against itself but with others.

Ajoklikellhus dutifuly helps with the plan, but Ajoklicnaiur spreads the fuckery all over it! Bonus points if these two guys never meet each other -- so Ajoklicknealiluhrus doesn't understand why people call him the trickster. To put it shortly, Ajokli is a mad god.

But, all signs in the book point to the Gods existing before Arkfall, why else would it be the promised land??

It's a retroactive existence. There were no gods before Arkfall, but afther Arkfall they were always before Arkfall.