[TUC Spoilers] - Cnaïur/Ajokli theory

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Jabberwock03

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« on: March 06, 2018, 11:03:57 am »
Hi guys,

First, I'm new here so hello everyone, and I have so many questions about those books! Damn I love that serie! I have something like 20 open pages of this forum and reddit about the Second Apocalypse!

But I wanted to discuss some theory about the last book (I don't think I have read it anywhere yet, but maybe I just didn't looked enough). Oh and I'm French, so maybe something contradict my idea in the book and I missed it (no french translation for the Aspect-Emperor serie, that's why I just finished the last book even if I started it few weeks after the release). I kinda get that some part are hard to read even for native speakers ;D ! Anyway, I'll try to organise my thoughts and write in english as well as I can.

So, here is my idea. In my reading it make sens that Cnaïur isn't possessed by Ajokli at the end as I can read in many places, but instead become Ajokli.
Reading the books in english was hard enough so I didn't have rereading them (yet), but here are few things:
I think I remember both of them being called "prince of hate".
When Mimara watch him with the JE she say it's weird and he is not just damned but some kind of demon already.
At the end, when Cnaïur speak with his tribe and his son, he tell something like "you know what I am, and if you fuck with my son I'll kick yo ass even if I'm dead" (very bad paraphrasing).
The gods are timeless so him become a god at the end of the book wouldn't contradict kellhus possessed before Cnaïur die. Plus I think the glossary tell something about Ajokli not being like the other gods.
Many other little things would make sens, like him being a big shard to begin with, and the many swazonds helping his soul grow (all the dead would be souls clamed by his own in the outside).
Finally, wouldn't be the best vengeance against Kellhus to trick him and control him, and at last seize him when he is in the GR (even if that part didn't work as expect, thanks Kelmomas)?

So what do you think? I would love him reaching the godhood status by pure hate against Kellhus!

SmilerLoki

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« Reply #1 on: March 06, 2018, 12:32:37 pm »
So, here is my idea. In my reading it make sens that Cnaïur isn't possessed by Ajokli at the end as I can read in many places, but instead become Ajokli.
Many people indeed think so.

H

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« Reply #2 on: March 06, 2018, 12:50:31 pm »
I mean, it is plausible, but while some of Ajokli's traits certainly line up, others really do not.  So, where Ajokli is the Prince of Hate, he is also a trickster, something that doesn't really describe Cnaiur.  I think, more likely, is that Ajokli takes the mantle of Cnaiur because there is overlap and so, in that sense, there is an "opening" for which Ajokli can come through.
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

Wilshire

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« Reply #3 on: March 06, 2018, 01:08:02 pm »
Hi guys,

First, I'm new here so hello everyone, and I have so many questions about those books! Damn I love that serie! I have something like 20 open pages of this forum and reddit about the Second Apocalypse!

But I wanted to discuss some theory about the last book (I don't think I have read it anywhere yet, but maybe I just didn't looked enough). Oh and I'm French, so maybe something contradict my idea in the book and I missed it (no french translation for the Aspect-Emperor serie, that's why I just finished the last book even if I started it few weeks after the release). I kinda get that some part are hard to read even for native speakers ;D ! Anyway, I'll try to organise my thoughts and write in english as well as I can.
Welcome! We have many international members :) I'm glad you found us.

As you said, The Second Apocalypse (TSA) is difficult enough and I speak the language its written lol. Hopefully  we can help. T

We do have a penchant for using acronyms and shorthand, which probably translate poorly, especially when talking about the book titles. I know that the french names for at least the first three differ slightly, so here's a list of all the acronyms we use for the books

TSA - The Second Apocalypse

PON - Prince of Nothing (Trilogy 1)
TDTCB - The Darkness That Comes Before (Book 1)
TWP - The Warrior Prophet (Book 2)
TTT - The Thousandfold Thought (Book 3)

TAE - The Aspect- Emperor (Trilogy 2)
TJE - The Judging Eye (Book 1)
WLW- The White Luck Warrior (Book 2)
TGO - The Great Ordeal (Book 3)
TUC - The Unholy Consult (Book 4)

TNG - The No-God (Trilogy 3)
According to Bakker, this consists of 2 books. One of them we refer to as The Crabikiad - long story behind that name. The other remains nameless.

Sorry if that was already obvious to you.

So, here is my idea. In my reading it make sens that Cnaïur isn't possessed by Ajokli at the end as I can read in many places, but instead become Ajokli.
I'm not sure there's much of a difference. I think the general idea is that Ajokli can fully posses his victims. Just like how Ajokli overtakes Kellhus in the Golden room, so too does he take control of Cnaiur.

When Ajokli is in control, there is nothing left of the other person in the body. Ajokli inhabits the body, and the previous soul is pushed to the outside. In Kellhus' circumstance, he was able to come back, and I think this is because Ajokli chose to switch places with Kellhus' soul in the outside when Kelmomas showed up.

I think I remember both of them being called "prince of hate".
"Both of them" referring to Cnaiur and Ajokli?
I can't remember for certain, but this seems correct.

When Mimara watch him with the JE she say it's weird and he is not just damned but some kind of demon already.
"Not just damned" - or even the most damned creature she ever saw.
Cnaiur's smoking swazond was an amazing scene.

You might recall that Kosotor also looked like a demon of some kind when Mimara looked at him.

At the end, when Cnaïur speak with his tribe and his son, he tell something like "you know what I am, and if you fuck with my son I'll kick yo ass even if I'm dead" (very bad paraphrasing).
I think this was more of an esoteric threat. Something that Cnaiur said to make his followers fear him from beyond the grave. I don't think that Cnaiur, or the Scylvendi, knew that Cnaiur was going to be a Ciphrang (if that is even what happened).


The gods are timeless so him become a god at the end of the book wouldn't contradict kellhus possessed before Cnaïur die.
There is a lot of confusion surrounding the timelessness of the gods. I do agree with you: Ajokli is fully capable of possessing both Kellhus and Cnaiur.


Plus I think the glossary tell something about Ajokli not being like the other gods.
There are some quotes throughout the books that suggest Ajokli is special in some way. I don't think there's much proof that says exactly how or why.


Many other little things would make sens, like him being a big shard to begin with, and the many swazonds helping his soul grow (all the dead would be souls clamed by his own in the outside).
I'm not sure Cnaiur started out big, but he certainly ended up that way.
There certainly does seem to be something to the swazond and the soul collecting. If anyone could be a Ciphrang, it would be Cnaiur.


Finally, wouldn't be the best vengeance against Kellhus to trick him and control him, and at last seize him when he is in the GR (even if that part didn't work as expect, thanks Kelmomas)?

Oh, I see now what you mean. You're theory is that Ajokli is Cnaiur. Or put another way, that Cnaiur became Ajokli.

That's a pretty interesting idea. I'm going to have to think on it some.

So what do you think? I would love him reaching the godhood status by pure hate against Kellhus!

Great thoughts! Thanks for posting.
Whatever you do, don't feel the need to search everywhere before you make a new topic or ask a question. Just start posting :)

I mean, it is plausible, but while some of Ajokli's traits certainly line up, others really do not.  So, where Ajokli is the Prince of Hate, he is also a trickster, something that doesn't really describe Cnaiur.  I think, more likely, is that Ajokli takes the mantle of Cnaiur because there is overlap and so, in that sense, there is an "opening" for which Ajokli can come through.
I'm not so sure that "The Trickster God" is a particularly good description of Ajokli anyway. Cunning, sure, and smart, able to make people do things. A great tactician. All these things, while perhaps could be considered tricky, calling them tricky, or labeling Ajokli as a 'trickster' really misses the mark. In my opinion at least.

Cnaiur becoming the Ajokli we see at the end of TUC makes a lot of sense. There is a lot of poetic justice to it, and it fits with the reoccurring theme of people creating their own demise
One of the other conditions of possibility.

Jabberwock03

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« Reply #4 on: March 06, 2018, 01:10:31 pm »
So, here is my idea. In my reading it make sens that Cnaïur isn't possessed by Ajokli at the end as I can read in many places, but instead become Ajokli.
Many people indeed think so.

Too many thread to read. But at least my idea isn't plain stupid, which is nice ;D !

Jabberwock03

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« Reply #5 on: March 06, 2018, 01:21:10 pm »
Finally, wouldn't be the best vengeance against Kellhus to trick him and control him, and at last seize him when he is in the GR (even if that part didn't work as expect, thanks Kelmomas)?

Oh, I see now what you mean. You're theory is that Ajokli is Cnaiur. Or put another way, that Cnaiur became Ajokli.

That's a pretty interesting idea. I'm going to have to think on it some.

So what do you think? I would love him reaching the godhood status by pure hate against Kellhus!

Great thoughts! Thanks for posting.
Whatever you do, don't feel the need to search everywhere before you make a new topic or ask a question. Just start posting :)

I mean, it is plausible, but while some of Ajokli's traits certainly line up, others really do not.  So, where Ajokli is the Prince of Hate, he is also a trickster, something that doesn't really describe Cnaiur.  I think, more likely, is that Ajokli takes the mantle of Cnaiur because there is overlap and so, in that sense, there is an "opening" for which Ajokli can come through.
I'm not so sure that "The Trickster God" is a particularly good description of Ajokli anyway. Cunning, sure, and smart, able to make people do things. A great tactician. All these things, while perhaps could be considered tricky, calling them tricky, or labeling Ajokli as a 'trickster' really misses the mark. In my opinion at least.

Cnaiur becoming the Ajokli we see at the end of TUC makes a lot of sense. There is a lot of poetic justice to it, and it fits with the reoccurring theme of people creating their own demise

Exactly what I was trying to say.
In in timeless timeline (WTF?), it would be something like that:
- The world exist
- Cnaïur is born
- shit happens
- Cnaïur is so freaking mad and his soul is very big thanks to all the souls he collected with his swazonds
- Cnaïur run into the srank sea and his soul overflow the reality as the place is a topoi
- But his soul is in fact Ajokli
- His body die
- Ajokli (Cnaïur soul) is officially born
- As gods are timeless, Ajokli has always existed in the outside

Wilshire

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« Reply #6 on: March 06, 2018, 01:25:35 pm »
lol yes, that sounds about right, or at least internally consistent.
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ThoughtsOfThelli

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« Reply #7 on: March 06, 2018, 02:12:36 pm »
First of all, welcome to the forum, Jabberwock03! :) I'm glad to see a fellow European around.


I think this is a pretty interesting theory. Like others have said, this possibility has been pointed out before, but not fully developed into a theory like you've done here.

Exactly what I was trying to say.
In in timeless timeline (WTF?), it would be something like that:
- The world exist
- Cnaïur is born
- shit happens
- Cnaïur is so freaking mad and his soul is very big thanks to all the souls he collected with his swazonds
- Cnaïur run into the srank sea and his soul overflow the reality as the place is a topoi
- But his soul is in fact Ajokli
- His body die
- Ajokli (Cnaïur soul) is officially born
- As gods are timeless, Ajokli has always existed in the outside

So you're saying that in a linear "zero" timeline, Cnaiür would have become Ajokli by the end of TUC by virtue of his hatred. The nature of Gods in Eärwa determine that Cnaiür had always been/would always be Ajokli, and so he was/is/will be. As Wilshire said, it makes sense. I kind of hope this is actually the case, but who knows, it might go unexplained until the very end of the series.


Cnaiur becoming the Ajokli we see at the end of TUC makes a lot of sense. There is a lot of poetic justice to it, and it fits with the reoccurring theme of people creating their own demise

So true...
"But you’ve simply made the discovery that Thelli made—only without the benefit of her unerring sense of fashion."
-Anasûrimbor Kayûtas (The Great Ordeal, chapter 13)

"You prefer to believe women victims to their passions, but we can be at least as calculating as you. Love does not make us weak, but strong."
-Ykoriana of the Masks (The Third God, chapter 27)

Jabberwock03

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« Reply #8 on: March 06, 2018, 02:17:30 pm »
Well, if it goes unexplained, or Bakker didn't even thought about it, I know I will go with this explanation of that scene and Cnaïur fate in my mind. I think it's so damn epic that a mad guy is so hateful and spiritually powerful that he become a soul as strong as any other gods.

Madness

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« Reply #9 on: March 06, 2018, 03:04:35 pm »
Welcome to the Second Apocalypse, Jabberwock :).
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Jabberwock03

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« Reply #10 on: March 06, 2018, 03:40:30 pm »
Thanks!

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« Reply #11 on: March 06, 2018, 06:18:19 pm »
Welcome, Jabberwock!

As someone else said the idea has been tossed around a lot. It wasn't my initial reading, but like Wilshire said, a lot of poetic justice if thays the case. I think the timelessness of the Gods allows it to be true. And, one thing you left out, "What comes After determines that which comes before.", was heavily tauted by Bakker in all interviews post TUC. Also, it makes Cnaüir's sudden appearance again in TGO more credible. I like the theory, it has just seems as if we some times out think what Bakker is really trying to convey, so one never knows. Great post!
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

icarium90

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« Reply #12 on: March 09, 2018, 03:23:15 pm »
I have to admit, that i have never thought about it. It is a very interesting theory. So i thought there are some things, which would back this theory.

1. The difference how Ajolki manifested in Kellhus and in Cnaiür (I am not 100% sure, but as far as i remember the head of Kellhus hurst into flames, while Cnaiür became Ajokli in a more gradual way. I know that it took awhile for Ajokli to manifest in Kellhus but somehow i think this two manifestations were different)

2. In the books or glossary there are hints that Ajokli is different from other gods.
That somehow he can sense or conceive more than the others from the 100. So I thought this is because he was "born" in Erwa unlike the other gods who are directly from the Outside.


3. Another possible hint that Golgotterath is the place where Ajokli became or was "born" is how the glossary mentions the Horns as two of the four Horns of Ajokli.

Yeah i think that my thoughts are far fetched and probably bullshit but i just wanted to throw my two cent about this theory :D


Maybe this was the big thing Bakker mentioned in the AMA that the readers didn‘t see and overlooked. Or has this been already resolved what exactly Bakker meant :)


(Oh and sorry for possible mispellings. English is my second language) 


 

SuJuroit

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« Reply #13 on: March 09, 2018, 06:15:52 pm »
As others have said, in Earwa what comes after determines what comes before AND the gods exist outside of time.  So it's entirely possible that Ajokli was "born" when Cnaiur walked into the whirlwind.  Cnaiur certainly had enough hatred to fit the bill as the Prince of Hate, although the trickster aspect seems lacking.  Still, I find it quite plausible.  Especially when you consider the priesthood of Ajokli deemed murder to be holy.  That sounds familiar...

Insofar as Ajokli being "different" from other gods, that's because he has access to a reverse prophet; Kellhus.  Kellhus brings him news from the Inward, and that allows him to see what the other gods can't see, know what they can't know. 

MSJ

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« Reply #14 on: March 09, 2018, 09:05:31 pm »
@icarium90 (love the handle, btw).

I think youve outlined a lot, as well as others at to why Cnaüir indeed did become Ajokli. In was against it at first, not for personal reasons, just my reading of the story. So many aspects make it very plausible that it is the case. Ajokli was born on the Fields Appalling under the shadow of the Ark. Lines up with myth perfectly. Maybe this is the boat Bakker talked about us missing.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,