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Messages - Wielokropek

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16
The Forum of Interesting Things / Re: Culture is (not) your friend
« on: March 24, 2014, 08:01:34 pm »
You say that this collapse or transformation could happen any time, but what do you really think it would look like?

Is it going to be economic collapse that fuels social upheaval, or is it going to be a slow death, a simple fading of western culture into obscurity and a different kind of globalized culture coming to the fore. I'd probably hedge my bets on the latter, but by no means would I exclude the former as a possibility.

Also, what are the consequences of either type of collapse? You say they're dramatic, but I really don't know.

I don't even think there will be any kind of big collapse or revolutionary change in culture, though. I think it seems more probable that as any culture becomes increasingly promotional of individual gain and pleasure, and the more globalized or multicultural any culture becomes, the more the very notion of culture dies. I guess it's all shades of semantic apocalypse to me.

Maybe we'll all just end up like Canada.

17
Philosophy & Science / Re: Deciding Research
« on: December 02, 2013, 06:29:29 pm »
Neuroscience! I'm surprised no one's brought it up yet.

18
The White-Luck Warrior / Re: Moenghus and the Sranc
« on: December 02, 2013, 05:29:22 pm »
During Kellhus' gandoki match with the thing called Sarcellus, we get a couple of things that indicate that at least the skin spies can be conditioned:

Quote from: TWP,p.202
     Kellhus glanced at Sarcellus, who stood rigid, utterly absorbed by the mayhem unfolding before them. Pupils dilated. Arrested breath. Quickened pulse ...
     It possesses involuntary responses.

Quote from: TWP,p.207
     Between heartbeats, Kellhus tracked the shift and sway of its centre of balance, an abstract point marked by the peak of its erection. He observed repetitions, recognized patterns, tested anticipations, all the while analyzing the possibilities of the game, the manifold lines of move and consequence. He restricted himself to an elegant yet limited repertoire of moves, luring it into habits, reflexive responses ..."

In case anyone doesn't already know, the transformation of unconditioned responses into conditioned responses through reinforcement of certain behaviours when given certain stimuli is operant conditioning, and is perhaps the most significant way we learn.

It's pretty clear that this is what Kellhus does to the thing called Sarcellus during the gandoki match. The fact that Sarcellus also has involuntary responses, notably sexual excitement for all things violent, makes it pretty likely that Kellhus could classically condition it to respond completely involuntarily to certain conditioned stimuli.

I doubt Kellhus could dominate what passes for a skin-spy's soul. In TTT, Cnaiur calls the skin-spies spears as opposed to the trees that men are. Kellhus seizes the roots of men and so wields their ends, but the root of the skin-spies is the hand of the consult. To wield the skin-spies, Kellhus would have to wield the consult. Still, I think Kellhus could manipulate some skin-spies to act erratically and subtly, and so disrupt some of the consult's plans (perhaps with the thing called Somandutta?). Of course, given how much we've seen Aurang interact with Sarcellus, it seems unlikely that any overt conditioning would go unnoticed for long, and I'm sure that the consult would repair any skin-spies that are not in working order. But with Moenghus and the sranc ...

I think Moenghus could definitely condition any sranc and wield them to his end. The sranc are far too loose and uncontrolled by the consult to prevent some measure of conditioning (though, as we saw through Soma's interaction with them in TWLW, they are perhaps somewhat aware of the consult). We've also seen Mekeretrig essentially heading a band of sranc, and likely getting them to do as he commands outside his direct supervision. For Moenghus, simply getting a few bands of sranc to stay away from Ishual while Kellhus heads south seems like child's play.

19
Philosophy & Science / Re: What would a Dunyain think of money?
« on: December 02, 2013, 04:39:29 pm »
Quote from: TTT,p.253-4
     "Men are simple," he replied. "They think primarily in terms of things, not relations. This is why they think it's the gold or silver that makes coins valuable, not the obedience they command. Tell them the Nilnameshi use pottery for their coins and they scoff."
     "Or, "Esmenet said, "that the Warrior-Prophet uses a woman."

...

     "Exactly," Kellhus said. "They ask, 'Where's the gold?'" He grinned at her sidelong. "Or in your case ..."
     "'Where's the thumb?'" Esmenet said ruefully.
     Thumb. Sumni slang for "phallus." Why did it pain him so, listening to her speak in the old way?
     Kellhus grinned. "They can't see that gold is only relevant insofar as it plays a role within our expectations–insofar as we make it relevant ..." He paused, his eyes sparkling with mirth. "The same," he continued, "might be said of thumbs."

Yeah, it looks like Auriga's got it right. A coin has the same value to a Dunyain as a dick.

20
General Earwa / Re: Sorcery
« on: November 23, 2013, 02:31:16 pm »
But my weigh in on Moenghus not having the snakes (sweet sejenus, when did we stop talking about sorcery ;)) is that he knew everything that was going to happen before it happened.
I always thought in TTT, Moe's snakes were around the chamber giving him effective 360deg vision.  Trying to compensate tactically as 'twere.

These two ideas definitely complement each other. If Moenghus wanted to see Kellhus' shit from all possible angles, then it only makes sense to put the snakes in the skin spy torture room where Kellhus provides some unwavering sorcerous light, talks about hearing the No-God, and unleashes the metagnosis.

21
General Earwa / Re: Sorcery
« on: November 23, 2013, 02:40:50 am »
And how does Moenghus (or any Cishaurim) experience this connection? Is it like Warging?

I'm inclined to think that a Psukari and his snake or snakes share a soul. We know that all sorcery is worked through the soul, especially so for the Cishaurim (they can have their souls removed by having their sorcery wrenched from them), and it seems like the snakes are deeply connected with at least some of the sorcery the Cishaurim practice. Moenghus' voice in the dreams he sends to the Dunyain comes out serpentine and his snake's eyes flash when he does the multi-face thing. Unfortunately, there are no other passages I'm aware of that show a connection between a Psukari's sorcery and his snakes.

Since it's always the sorcerer's eyes that light up, and Moenghus calls his snakes his eyes, I'm pretty sure that whatever metaphysical thing that happens to make a sorcerer's eyes light up happens to both the Psukari and the snakes. There's also the whole fact that the Cishaurim use the snakes to see, so the snakes' sensory input somehow has to be shared with the Cishaurim.

Ultimately, I don't think the snake and Psukari could share a point of view and both be involved in working the same sorcery if they don't share the same place, the same soul.

Even if there's no soul or sorcerous connection, Moenghus' snakes coming to him without him casting any sorcery after he'd been stabbed supports at least some sort of snake-Psukari connection.

If the Dunyain could ever trust one of their own - then maybe two Dunyain could communicate like Cnaiur does with Kellhus a few times through PON (some of my favorite moments in the series).

Makes me wonder about Ishual and how the pragma or any post-training Dunyain would talk to each other. They'd probably have to use more actual speech in the thousand thousand halls due to the general light-prohibition, but otherwise there might not be much said in Ishual at all.

22
General Earwa / Re: Sorcery
« on: November 22, 2013, 11:33:37 pm »
Don't have my book in front of me, are the Cish ever noted as singing? I wonder if the Psuke is all inutteral to begin with.

There's no mention of the Cishaurim singing on the plains of Mengedda, though Iyokus does say that the Cishaurim use concerts when talking to Eleazeras after the battle. Perhaps he's just adopting the terminology the Scarlet Spires use to describe their own sorcery.

Similarly, I can't find any mention of words or song in regards to the Psukhe at Caraskand or anywhere in Shimeh. I'm going to go ahead and assume that the Cishaurim don't use an utteral component at all.

I'm also going to suggest Moe left one of his snakes with Skauras for this trick.

Interestingly enough, Mallahet's described as having only one snake with him when dealing with Xerius, but three snakes come to Moenghus after Kellhus stabs him. Even if he left one snake with Skauras and took another with him, what did he do with the third?

23
The White-Luck Warrior / Re: Women are very important to this series
« on: November 22, 2013, 04:22:31 pm »
We know from Esmenet that her matrilineal line is of the Few and many practiced as Witches - she only didn't at the behest of her Mother, apparently because of the social grief it causes. We know from our own history that men don't exactly need reason or quality rationale as to barring woman from institutions in society (or even social positions of equal subjective value).

Quote from: TWP,p.121
"Did I ever tell you," she said, flinching from these thoughts, "that my mother read the stars?"

"Dangerous," he replied, "especially in the Nansurim. Didn't she know the penalties?"

The prohibitions against astrology were as severe as those against witchcraft.

This is the only time I can recall Esmenet talking about her matrilineal line, and she only says her mother read the stars. Were they actually of the Few?

24
The White-Luck Warrior / Re: Yatwer and the Greal Ordeal
« on: November 22, 2013, 12:57:43 am »
I don't know... those lines are pretty ambiguous. There's nothing in that passage that seems to prime us for thinking about the apocalypse; nevertheless, you could be right about them referencing Yatwer's motivations. It would make a lot more sense if Kellhus ends up being the No-God, because then Yatwer would be giving giving Sorweel a tool for vengeance.

Quote
The watching men gasp for the sorrow of a mother's endless Giving ...
and
Quote
"What the Mother gives ..." he cries out to the King. "You must take!"

Make me think that Yatwer's line is more about acknowledging her endless capacity for giving. Yatwer is the mother of birth; therefore, when children are born, they are taken from her.

25
General Earwa / Re: Sorcery
« on: November 21, 2013, 10:00:42 pm »
Them dunyains... suspicious folks  -.0

Interesting that the dreams were sent to many recipients simultaneously.
Also the snake-y voice?  Perhaps the cish use the sssssnakes for an utteral component  :o

Makes me wonder about Moe's comment about facility with scrying.  Could he have been observing Kellhus' progress?  From campfires and hearths maybe?

The comment about scrying stands out to me for a couple of reasons.

If I'm not mistaken, Kellhus is able to use the metagnostic cant of transposing to get to either places he can see, or places that he knows very well. Furthermore, the cants of calling require that one be familiar with the place the recipient is in, which seems to tie into the whole needing to see the physical place or be familiar with the location before being able to transpose the two grounds. The restrictions about knowing the place could have several implications: needing to hold the spatial and temporal locations of the ground in your awareness to direct an inutteral toward it; and perhaps needing to be familiar with the meatphysical location of the ground, needing to know how the place that is your soul in the outside connects with the place that is that ground in the outside.

There are a couple of things I'm speculating about here: how and whether souls can interact with the metaphysics of the ground, whether there's a difference between soul and ground at all (perhaps not, considering how Kellhus says soul becomes place when we see the cant of transposing), and whether there's a connection between knowing the ground you want to go to and the probability trance.

I think that for Kellhus to know that nothing will interfere with the ground he wants to go to (like a bashrag smashing the ground or Aurang collapsing the floor beneath him), he has to know how that ground will appear in the future, which he may be able to accurately determine with the probability trance. It might also be that the probability trance draws a metaphysical connection between Kellhus' soul and the ground he wants to get to, but I've got no concrete evidence for that.

A lot (perhaps all) of Moenghus' magic that we've seen or that he claims to be capable of might be connected to knowing the ground and its movements, something best done through the probability trance (or the Thousandfold Thought, but I'm still not sure what to make of that). If Moenghus is capable of scrying, how might those skills be enhanced by the probability trance, and how may those enhancements enable him to manipulate Kellhus' journey and domination of the holy war?

The scrying could also be strongly linked to the third sight of the Cishaurim. Even if Moenghus could carry no water, if he made improvements to srcying with the probability trance and he could teach the Cishaurim to better grasp the subtleties of emotion involved in those improvements, then perhaps the Cishaurim weren't able to see Kellhus just because he shone in the third sight, but because his location, his soul, connected to so much ground that they couldn't help but see him. All roads lead to Kellhus.

Another errant thought is that the snakes may facilitate the third sight. We know from Mimara that they're holy, and Moenghus calls them his eyes, so there may be in intimate connection between a Cishaurim and his snakes. If so, then maybe the snakes make whatever sight the Cishaurim have more ... holy? I may have to continue this in Storks, Faith, & Holy Animals.

26
General Earwa / Re: Is Kellhus actually one of the Few?
« on: November 21, 2013, 07:36:11 pm »
For all my thread-killing attempts, I do think Kellhus' Mark is going to appear differently when we finally see him again with sorcerous eyes (which we have not yet in TAE, right?).

I definitely agree. Titirga's mark is the only different one that we've seen (if you discount the Cishaurim), and "they said he went mad while Canting. They said his words seized things that should not be seized." Kellhus is called mad by Moenghus and the "what has come before" sections, and the metagnosis is based on seizing metaphysics beyond what anyone else can (and what better defines what should or should not be seized?). What's more, Kellhus' entire power base is based on him being a prophet, and people (well, at least Eleazeras) call him that because he seizes more than what should be seized by mere men, their secrets, their souls.

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