The Aspect-Emperor

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« on: April 25, 2013, 06:15:03 pm »
Quote from: Madness
Wow. Exploring the old sub-forums... Sorry, I didn't re-edit my original post for bold and italic- though, I corrected link to thread with me and Ulyaoth. Regardless, this is an artifact. Lol, all I've learned in the past half decade is to quote properly :(.

EDIT: Found the link for Guest's No-God Explanation (read Anonymous now).

Quote from: Madness, 2007
My thanks to Warrior-Poet for reposting this thread though unfortunately not in it's original state. Some things, however, cannot be helped.

I initially posted this thread with the hope that it would draw engaged speculators who would share in my goal of discerning the state of events in the opening pages of The Aspect-Emperor. I wrote with the aspiration of providing a solid factual foundation for speculation towards this goal. My ambition remains the same this second time posting with the further aspiration of providing a more in depth and developed base.

To begin, once again, the original quote by Cû'jara Cinmoi that I feel more speculators need to take to heart in their Aspect-Emperor speculations.

All I can say is that AE will put the whole world into play.  :twisted:

In the same thread from which I draw this quote Mr. Bakker writes that he intended to design the Thousandfold Thought glossary to be as much that as a teaser for the next instalments of Eärwa. Many of the building blocks in our foundation will then, obviously, be drawn from the glossary with the hope that we can piece together the small, and intentionally vague, facts Cû'jara Cinmoi has left us with at the end of The Thousandfold Thought into the larger puzzle that will be The Aspect-Emperor series.

As I intend this to serve as our speculative basis I beg any reader who finds contradiction to what I present as fact or speculation to post. I want there to be consensus in what is written in this thread to aid us in our goal. I truly do believe and hope, however impossible it may seem, that we can discern at least some truths of The Aspect-Emperor before ever being engulfed by Cû'jara Cinmoi's world anew.

The following I present to you as fact and, I believe, intelligent reasoning. A basis for our own probability trance as it were.

The Five Tribes of Men:

The Ketyai: Typically black-haired, brown-eyed, dark-skinned. Predominant about the Three Seas.
The Norsirai: Typically blond-haired, blue-eyed, fair-skinned. Predominant along the northern fringes of the Three Seas.
The Satyothi: Typically black-haired, green-eyed, black-skinned. Predominant in the nation of Zeüm and southern extremities of the Three Seas.
The Scylvendi: Typically dark-haired, pale-blue-eyed, and fair-skinned. Predominant in and around the Jiünati Steppe.
The Xiuhianni: Typically black-haired, brown-eyed, olive-skinned. The only tribe of Men that remained in Eänna beyond the Great Kayarsus.

Throughout the events of the First Holy War we mainly encounter the Ketyai, Norsirai, and Scylvendi through the eyes of Cû'jara Cinmoi's characters. The Satyothi make brief appearances throughout the novels but for the most part we know little of Zeüm or it's inhabitants. Interestingly enough, according to the Thousandfold Thought glossary, Zeüm is the source of the finest steel in the Three Seas.

The Xiuhianni on the other hand we know absolutely nothing about apart from what we can infer based on some key excerpts from the Thousandfold Thought glossary.

According to the excerpts Breaking of the Gates, The Chronicle of the Tusk, and Xiuhianni we know that The Chronicle of the Tusk ends with the determination of four tribes of Men to invade Eärwa. We also know that the Xiuhianni, for their own reasons, refused to follow the other four tribes through the Gates.

However, whether the Xiuhianni have since moved across the Kayarsus into Eärwa is open to debate. In my perusal of The Thousandfold Thought glossary yesterday I stumbled upon the entry Jekhia. It reads as follows:

Jekhia: A tributary nation of High Ainon, famed as the mysterious source of chanv, located at the headwaters of the River Sayut in the Great Kayarsus. The Men of Jekhia are unique in that they exhibit Xiuhianni racial characteristics.

Regardless, based on the above quote by Mr. Bakker and by the fact that they are in the glossary at all, we know that the Xiuhianni have a role to play in future events whether we can speculate on them or not.

Houses, Nations, and Kings:

Aethelarius VI - King of Atrithau and last of the line of Morghund
Nrezza Barisullas - King of Cironj
Nersei Eukernas II - King of Conriya
Musammu Chinjosa - King-Regent of High Ainon
Coithus Eryeat - King of Galeoth
Hringa Rauschang - King of Thunyerus

House Biaxi - One of the Houses of the Congregate
House Trimas - One of the Houses of the Congregate
House Coithus - Ruling dynasty of Galeoth
House Daskas - One of the Houses of the Congregate
House Gaumum - One of the Houses of the Congregate
House Hoga - Ruling dynasty of Agansanor
House Ikurei - One of the Houses of the Congregate
House Kiskei - One of the Houses of the Congregate
House Ligesseras - One of the Houses of the Congregate
House Morghund - Ruling dynasty of Atrithau
House Nersei - Ruling dynasty of Conriya
House Thallei - One of the Houses of the Congregate
House Surmante - One of the Houses of the Congregate
House Zerxei - One of the Houses of the Congregate

Zeüm - A mysterious and powerful Satyothi nation beyond Nilnamesh
Nilnamesh - A Ketyai nation on the extreme southwest edge of the Three Seas
Cingulat - A Ketyai nation on the north western coast of Kutnarmu, south of Nilnamesh

Bar a couple names that have either slipped from my memory - I've been happily laden reading my christmas books lately and it's been awhile since I've immersed myself in the Prince of Nothing - or have never been mentioned, the above are the Kings and nations that now, unknowingly, fall under Aspect-Emperor Anasûrimbor Kellhus's domain.

In the past I have had many posters respond who've been quite adamant about the fact that they believe that upon opening the first book of The Aspect-Emperor we will find all the nations of the Three Seas squarely under Anasûrimbor Kellhus's rule. This is not an implausible suggestion; it's even a rather likely one.

As immense and amazing as Cû'jara Cinmoi's world is throughout the Prince of Nothing what many posters fail to realize, or perhaps just disregard all together, is that Kellhus has only been dealing with the chosen military leaders from their respective nations. Though these individuals stand high in their nation's respective rankings these are not the rulers of the Three Seas that unwittingly find themselves below Kellhus in hierarchy following Maithanet's proclamation at the end of The Thousandfold Thought.

Again, I know that upon opening the pages of The Aspect-Emperor these matters will probably have been long resolved in the intervening events between The Thousandfold Thought and The Aspect-Emperor. However, the only possible way to discern the state of the initial pages of The Aspect-Emperor is to speculate on those intervening events. As I've written before, probably in this same deleted thread, as far as I've concerned at the end of The Thousandfold Thought the only realm Kellhus has actual control over is Kian and what was the Nansur Empire. My main question for speculation is how will Kellhus deal with the individual rulers of the Three Seas. I foresee problems for him particularly with the Kings of Cironj, Galeoth, and Thunyerus.

Demanding further speculation are the Nations of Zeüm, Nilnamesh, and Cingulat. These nations have been almost entirely omitted from the events of the First Holy War aside from brief references. If Kellhus's goal is truly bent towards the end of Consult defeat he will definitely need the might and collaboration of all Three Seas factions especially ulterior ones.

The Schools, wizards and witches:

The School of Mandate - Gnostic School
The School of Mangaecca - Gnostic School
The Imperial Saik - Anagogic School, indentured to the Nansur Emperor
The Scarlet Spires - Anagogic and Daimotic School, de facto rulers of High Ainon
The Circle of Nibel - Sorcery unknown though I assume Anagogic or at least a variation of
The Mysunsai - Anagogic School, originally comprised of three minor Schools: the Mikka Council from Cironji, the Oaranat from Nilnamesh, and the Nilitar Compact from Ce Tydonn
Drusas Achamian - Gnostic Wizard and adherent of Seswatha

Besides the Wizard Achamian the above are the "Major Schools" of the Three Seas.

Now I've read many arguments regarding the Schools and sorcerous factions. Many state that Kellhus will make a so-called "super School" of Gnostic sorcerers or that he will dissolve the many Schools and make the Mandate individual beyond control of the Gnosis. I've found intelligent reasoning behind none of these arguments.

The Schools of the Three Seas definitely must be speculated upon in order to discern anything of The Aspect-Emperor. As the sorcerous factions stand to be one of the most influential factors in future events, to not ponder upon their actions would be irresponsible of us as speculators.

Though the Quorum of Mandate appear in the ending scene of The Thousandfold Thought at Kellhus's side we must remember that at this time they intend to use Kellhus as a tool. It can be argued that we know nothing of the initial meeting between Kellhus and the Quorum, however, we do know that they've remained sceptical of his prophetic status and believe wholly that they will control his actions pertaining to the Consult and not vice versa.

The Scarlet Spires and the Imperial Saik are the only other two Schools that we experience throughout the First Holy War's events aside from, briefly, the Mysunsai.

By the end of The Thousandfold Thought the Scarlet Spires have been weakened as a School. I believe they still have an intelligent grandmaster at their head albeit a slightly demented one. Specifically due to Iyokus's lack of belief in Kellhus and his Daimotic prowess leads me to believe the Scarlet Spires still have a role to play.

As for the Imperial Saik, they're in line for a new grandmaster. As to whom I couldn't say, however, I think we are assured that the Saik land squarely in Kellhus's pocket. As we read in one of Conphas's narratives in The Thousandfold Thought:

The Imperial Saik . . . revered their traditions. They took deep pride in the fact that they alone honoured the old Compactorium, the ancient indenture that had bound all the Schools to Cenei and her Aspect-Emperors in Near Antiquity.

Ironically, the above quote could prove the undoing of any sorcerous speculations, mine or otherwise. Perhaps Kellhus will seek to revive certain ancient indentures.

Also, the witches of the three Seas. I'd yet to consider the witches of the Three Seas in my speculations until reviewing the inept arguments of one of my opposition and a few quotes by Cû'jara Cinmoi.

As for witchcraft, this issue does come up later. The most I'll say is that it's an informal 'folkloric' form of the Anagogis:

The only question out of these that doesn't find itself pinned to a important part of the future story has to do with women and sorcery (and even then!). Yes, as many women are born to the 'Few' as men, but due to oppression, they have no formal tradition as such: they're typically burned as witches. Neither the Schools nor the mundane powers tolerate sorcery outside the aegis of the Schools, so wizards suffer much the same fate.

I think I should cut it short there, since it becomes quite significant in AE.

We learn in The Warrior-Prophet that Achamian has had a run-in with a Sansori witch. Furthermore, though never explicitly stated, I believe Achamian kills the witch and steals a few of her belongings, obviously, Wathi Doll inclusive.

It is likely that any witches of the Three Seas stay clear of the central nations due to their persecution at the hands of both the religious and sorcerous factions. There is even likely a handful of wizards scattered around the extremities of the Three Seas.

From the above two quotes by Cû'jara Cinmoi as well as another that I've omitted due to not being able to find it, I come to the conclusion that Drusas Achamian might have a few more run-ins with the female Few of the Three Seas. As my opposition, Ulyaoth, has suggested in another debate - and I'm now inclined to agree due to Mr. Bakker's quotes - we may find Drusas Achamian seated by an entirely different fire throughout The Aspect-Emperor. Again as Ulyaoth suggested, Achamian could find a use incorporating the forkloric Anagogis into his increasing Gnostic prowess.

Lastly, and most importantly, - as I've already started a bit above - in sorcerous speculations: Drusas Achamian. Probably my favourite character of the Prince of Nothing aside from Kellhus. I've never connected so much to a character as Achamian aside Cnaiür; specifically his madness.

Now I won't reiterate my whole argument surrounding Achamian spending, at least some of, the intervening years between novels in Ishterebinth. If you'd like to read more you can do so here, where myself and Ulyaoth were in the process of hashing it out quite thoroughly.

To sum it up, in light of no contrary evidence or more intelligent reasoning, I believe that Achamian may journey to Ishterebinth in order to sue for Nonmen support. I believe there is no better place for him to gain allies or power towards the end of Consult defeat. The teachings of the Gnosis that Nonmen Siqu and Quya could impart to Achamian would prove invaluable in his quest. Likewise, I'm sure that Achamian's tales of Consult skin-spies throughout the Three Seas will shock the Nonmen of Injor-Niyas into looking inwards towards their own House.

The Dûnyain:

Pragma Jeükal - Senior brethren of the Dûnyain
Pragma Meigon - Senior brethren of the Dûnyain
Pragma Uän - Senior brethren of the Dûnyain
Anasûrimbor Moënghus - Exiled brethren of the Dûnyain
Anasûrimbor Kellhus

Though the Dûnyain of Ishuäl only appear briefly in the Prince of Nothing series in the prologue of The Darkness That Comes Before, I'm entirely convinced that Mr. Bakker is not yet finished with this devious monastic sect.

I've included the Anasûrimbors Moënghus and Kellhus in this list because they are the only two Dûnyain to have left Ishuäl in 2000 years. Whether or not they can be considered Dûnyain, or even alive in Moënghus's case, at the end of The Thousandfold Thought is open to debate, however, their actions throughout all we have read and experienced stand as an indication of the dormant power lying in the Demua mountains.

We know that the Dûnyain Moënghus left Ishuäl following a raid by Sranc. Moënghus was sent out into the world to see if the Dûnyain's seclusion was threatened and assured that it was not, Moënghus returned only to be exiled; compromised by the world he had only briefly experienced.

After thirty years in Eärwa surrounded by worldborn men, even weakened in ability by his Cishaurim blinding, Moënghus still had none among them he could call his brethren. After realizing the Thousandfold Thought during his long hours in the probability trance in the Mansion beneath Kyudea, and after his interrogations of the skin-spies, he realizes that only a whole Dûnyain could overcome the enormous circumstances presented by the Consult and the apocalypse.

Now at the end of The Thousandfold Thought, again, I'm entirely convinced that Cû'jara Cinmoi has plans for the Dûnyain. As I've iterated before, once again I think in this very deleted post, I do not think that Kellhus is the most able or most intelligent Dûnyain from among them.

However, I think the most we can speculate upon due to the Dûnyain's elusive nature is how they will join the events of the Three Seas.

I'm, obviously, open to suggestions regarding anything I've written or will write. In this instance I feel there are only two options:

The Dûnyain Anasûrimbor Kellhus feels the Dûnyain are a threat towards existence in that they believe what is compliant has to be isolated from what is unruly and intractable; the World from the Outside. In the Dûnyain the Consult have possible strong allies depending on who breaches their isolation.

I haven't thought of anything that suggests to me that Kellhus will try and reach the Dûnyain. It seems to me he believes them contently isolated. On the other hand, I can see the Consult using Cnaiür to find them.

Again what is assured is that the Dûnyain will appear in the Three Seas in more force in the future novels.


Injor-Niyas - The last remaining Nonmen nation
Ishterebinth - The last of the Nonmen Mansions, also known as Ishoriöl
Nin-Ciljiras - The last surviving Nonmen King
Nil'giccas - The Nonmen King of Ishterebinth
Cil-Aujas - Lost Nonmen Mansion

The above are all that remains of the ancient Cûnoroi nations of old. Just to reiterate here as to not confuse anyone, Nin-Ciljiras is King in Ishterebinth. I've put Nil'giccas in as a curiosity.

Nil'giccas was King of Ishterebinth during the First Apocalypse. Anasûrimbor Celmomas II and Seswatha, Grandmaster of the Sohonc, treated with Nil'giccas and the Nonmen after which the Nonmen of Injor-Niyas joined the coalition of the First Ordeal.

Between the First Apocalypse and the end of The Thousandfold Thought something happens in Ishterebinth that displaces Nil'giccas as King. However, I can find nowhere stating that the former King dies. Even his glossary entry is implicative as Nil'giccas's states (? - ) and Cû'jara Cinmoi's states (? - ?) as we know he died.

Aside from that, the Cûnoroi of Eärwa must be speculated upon, I guess with the same import of everything else in this post. As I iterated, the Cûnoroi were the first foes of the Inchoroi and you could say their war has lasted more then 4 millennia.

I, again, won't reiterate my speculations on Achamian breaching their mountain fastness. This I believe is one of the most logical ways for Mr. Bakker to bring the Nonmen back into the heart of events.

As well, as it's in the same thread, I won't repeat my thoughts on Cil-Aujas.

However, while I've been writing and in past speculations I've come to a different theory. While I don't give much credit to it, as I believe Cet'ingira is firmly Erratic and on the Consult's side, it has always struck me kind of odd that Mekeritrig was wandering Sobel with only a handful of Sranc. What if Mekeritrig, at first under the guise of Consult instruction, returns to Ishterebinth and rejoins the Cûnoroi against the Inchoroi?

The Consult:

Cara-Sincurimoi - The No-God
Aurang - Inchoroi Prince and Horde-General to the No-God
Aurax - Inchoroi Prince
Cet'ingira, also known as Mekeritrig - Nonmen Erratic
Shaeönanra, also known as Shauriatas - Grandvizier of the Mangaecca

Just wanted to say, before I begin writing of the Consult, that I apologize for any variation of post quality. This post has taken me awhile to write and parts I don't believe are up to my standard of writing. However, I hope it hasn't been too boring to read.

In The Thousandfold Thought glossary under the entry No-God Cû'jara Cinmoi has written "The entity summoned by the Consult." This stands with my speculations of the No-God as I believe him to be an entity rather than a force of nature.

Despite that I also believe that the best explanation of the No-God's nature lies here[/b][/u] under Guest's entry. It definitely ties into other snippets of the No-God's nature that Cû'jara Cinmoi has left us with.

Furthermore, I believe Cara-Sincurimoi is closely tied to the Aporos. In The Warrior-Prophet in one of Achamian's dreams, Seswatha describes the Carapace as "indented with choric script." As well, the Carapace itself is a nimil sarcophagus. These things lead me to believe that the Inchoroi needed more help from the Nonmen Aporic practicitioners than people realize.

As for Aurang and Aurax, the surviving Inchoroi:

Throughout the novels we only experience Aurang of the Inchoroi. I do have a sneaking suspicion that the Inchoroi we encounter with Aëngelas and the Werigda is Aurax, but that is mute point.

We know that Aurang's task throughout the First Holy War is the direction of the various skin-spies who've infiltrated the various factions. We also know that the Consult's stake in the war was the destruction of the Cishaurim thinking that it was their sorcery that allowed them to discover the skin-spies.

However, soon that goal, though accomplished, becomes tainted by the unanswered question: Who are the Dûnyain? This is what Aurang spends most of The Thousandfold Thought trying to figure out.

For me, my mainly unanswered question of the Consult throughout the Prince of Nothing is this: Why did the Consult kill Ikurei Xerius III?

As for Aurax, the only real basis for speculation I can lay down is that in The Thousandfold Thought glossary it states that he was the one who initially teaches the remnants of the Tekne to the Mangaecca.

Cet'ingira remains an ambiguity. What was he doing in Sobel with only a handful of Sranc while Aurax, or Aurang, travels Gâl with a company of Sranc and Nonmen Erratics? Was he truly only "searching for trauma" as Cû'jara states Nonmen are prone to do or was there deeper reason?

Finally, Shauriatas: it's apparent that Shauriatas came to some success in his study of soul-trapping sorceries. It's likely that by the end of The Thousandfold Thought he is a talented Aporic sorcerer as well as a Gnostic one. It's also likely that himself, Mekeritrig, and any original Nonmen Aporic practitioners among the Consult are very responsible for the No-God and his Carapace.

However, until the return of the No-God to Eärwa it's likely that Shauriatas, Mekeritrig, and Aurax will not have more active roles in Three Seas events. They are obviously quite busy experimenting with the Tekne.

Once again, I apologize for what I feel is an obvious decline in articulation and overall technique in my writing towards the end of this post. Nearing the end of this, I've just wanted to see it posted rather than continually having to find time to write. I hope, again, that it was at least somewhat enjoyable.

To finish, I want to reiterate once again my goal in writing this post. I hope that between any speculators among us here on the three-seas forum can discern at least some truths before ever immersing ourselves in Cû'jara Cinmoi's world again.