The Second Apocalypse

Earwa => The Aspect-Emperor => The Unholy Consult => Topic started by: Cuttlefish on July 06, 2017, 05:45:46 pm

Title: [TUC Spoilers] Sorweel
Post by: Cuttlefish on July 06, 2017, 05:45:46 pm
So...

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Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Sorweel
Post by: profgrape on July 06, 2017, 06:13:26 pm
So...

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Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Sorweel
Post by: MisterGuyMan on July 06, 2017, 06:32:51 pm
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Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Sorweel
Post by: Cuttlefish on July 06, 2017, 06:35:35 pm
So...

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How quaint!

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Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Sorweel
Post by: Cuttlefish on July 06, 2017, 07:40:29 pm
So...

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So, I finished the book!
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Sorweel
Post by: profgrape on July 06, 2017, 09:46:40 pm
So...

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So, I finished the book!

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Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Sorweel
Post by: Walter on July 06, 2017, 10:11:48 pm
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Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Sorweel
Post by: profgrape on July 06, 2017, 10:20:15 pm
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Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Sorweel
Post by: Cuttlefish on July 06, 2017, 10:28:21 pm
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Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Sorweel
Post by: Hiro on July 07, 2017, 08:15:48 pm
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Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Sorweel
Post by: H on July 07, 2017, 09:31:26 pm
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Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Sorweel
Post by: Cuttlefish on July 07, 2017, 09:37:19 pm
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Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Sorweel
Post by: H on July 07, 2017, 09:59:50 pm
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Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Sorweel
Post by: Cuttlefish on July 07, 2017, 10:05:07 pm
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Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Sorweel
Post by: Redeagl on July 12, 2017, 05:11:27 pm
I took it as that Yatwer saved Sorweel from hell. Which makes Sorweel the third non damned character after Mim and Esmi.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Sorweel
Post by: H on July 12, 2017, 05:22:45 pm
I took it as that Yatwer saved Sorweel from hell. Which makes Sorweel the third non damned character after Mim and Esmi.

Yeah, that was my interpretation too.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Sorweel
Post by: Spooky on July 12, 2017, 08:09:19 pm
I took it as that Yatwer saved Sorweel from hell. Which makes Sorweel the third non damned character after Mim and Esmi.

Saving from hell to devour him. That's exactly what a mother goddess (who doesn't feed on terror/pain) would desire to induce in you for maximum feasting.  Just as Ajolki feasted on Kellhus from the delicious heights of his fall, so did Yatwer consume her tool,and the power applied to it, by eating the soul.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Sorweel
Post by: Hiro on July 12, 2017, 08:11:21 pm
I took it as that Yatwer saved Sorweel from hell. Which makes Sorweel the third non damned character after Mim and Esmi.

Saving from hell to devour him. That's exactly what a mother goddess (who doesn't feed on terror/pain) would desire to induce in you for maximum feasting.  Just as Ajolki feasted on Kellhus from the delicious heights of his fall, so did Yatwer consume her tool,and the power applied to it, by eating the soul.

Oh no! It felt like such a nice ending for Sorweel...  :o


Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Sorweel
Post by: Cüréthañ on July 13, 2017, 01:44:52 am
Whilst on the topic of Sorweel's fate....

Being redeemed means you get to go spend your afterlife with whatever pious ancestors you had in some pocket dimension, or get taken to a God's dimension. Bakker has covered that in answer to questions as far back as during the writing of Prince of Nothing.

Quote from: A Conception of Virtue (http://forum.three-seas.com/topics/568)
Given this overarching indeterminacy, there's three basic options: Oblivion, Damnation, or Redemption. The idea is that without the interest of the various 'agencies' (as the Nonmen call them) inhabiting the Outside, one simply falls into oblivion - dies. Certain acts attract the interest of certain agencies. One can, and most Inrithi do, plead to redeemed ancestors to intercede on their behalf, but most give themselves over to some God. Doing so, however, puts their souls entirely into play, and the more sketchy one's life is, the more liable one is to be 'poached' by the demonic, and to live out eternity in everlasting torment.
It's just not widely accepted by readers that the hundred are responsible for redemption for whatever reason. Now there is further clarity provided by actual examples and many readers still seem to prefer to stick with the Fanim perspective.  ::)

Anyway, one of the Names who is a casualty during TUC is mentioned as being taken up by Gilgaol. Which is interesting because this is after the Meat frenzy.
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Thane Sosering Rauchurl was felled from the heights of Gwergiruh. He was grinning to his compatriots when the missile dropped from the void of his left, piercing his cheek, breaking his teeth, and pitching him headlong into the frenzied threshing below. Death came spiralling down ...

Bore him wondering to the brace of Gilgaöl.

[EDIT Madness: For link to quote thread ;).]
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Sorweel
Post by: Walter on July 13, 2017, 03:12:07 am
I definitely think that Psatma and Sorweel went to Yatwer's personal zone.  I just tend to doubt that that zone is anything like the paradise they were hoping for.  Cue the lines about the sighs of the sinners and the screams of the damned being indistinguishable if you like, or Psatma's admission that Yatwer was a demon.

It may be better than the Hells, or it may not.  One big Ciphrang vs. feasting thousands.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Sorweel
Post by: Cüréthañ on July 13, 2017, 04:41:29 am
Cue the lines about the sighs of the sinners and the screams of the damned being indistinguishable if you like, or Psatma's admission that Yatwer was a demon.

Context matters a lot.  For instance, Psatma was arguing with a priest of Fane.

Certainly, gods and ciphrang are of a type, bearing broad similarities - but then so are humans and baser beasts. 
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Sorweel
Post by: themerchant on July 13, 2017, 05:37:11 am
nah some one went into Gilgoals arms as well, during a battle scene, something strikes him and it says gilgaol gathers him up. So he was saved as well.

A random noble in battle not a main character though. I thought adding in whether they were saved or damned after some deaths an extra touch :)
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Sorweel
Post by: Hiro on July 13, 2017, 09:32:38 am
nah some one went into Gilgoals arms as well, during a battle scene, something strikes him and it says gilgaol gathers him up. So he was saved as well.

A random noble in battle not a main character though. I thought adding in whether they were saved or damned after some deaths an extra touch :)

That be Mr Rauchurl.

Mentioned earlier in this thread as well, sorry.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Sorweel
Post by: Wilshire on July 13, 2017, 12:23:49 pm
Whilst on the topic of Sorweel's fate....

Being redeemed means you get to go spend your afterlife with whatever pious ancestors you had in some pocket dimension, or get taken to a God's dimension. Bakker has covered that in answer to questions as far back as during the writing of Prince of Nothing.

Quote from: A Conception of Virtue (http://forum.three-seas.com/topics/568)
Given this overarching indeterminacy, there's three basic options: Oblivion, Damnation, or Redemption. The idea is that without the interest of the various 'agencies' (as the Nonmen call them) inhabiting the Outside, one simply falls into oblivion - dies. Certain acts attract the interest of certain agencies. One can, and most Inrithi do, plead to redeemed ancestors to intercede on their behalf, but most give themselves over to some God. Doing so, however, puts their souls entirely into play, and the more sketchy one's life is, the more liable one is to be 'poached' by the demonic, and to live out eternity in everlasting torment.
It's just not widely accepted by readers that the hundred are responsible for redemption for whatever reason. Now there is further clarity provided by actual examples and many readers still seem to prefer to stick with the Fanim perspective.  ::)

Anyway, one of the Names who is a casualty during TUC is mentioned as being taken up by Gilgaol. Which is interesting because this is after the Meat frenzy.
Quote
Thane Sosering Rauchurl was felled from the heights of Gwergiruh. He was grinning to his compatriots when the missile dropped from the void of his left, piercing his cheek, breaking his teeth, and pitching him headlong into the frenzied threshing below. Death came spiralling down ...

Bore him wondering to the brace of Gilgaöl.

[EDIT Madness: For link to quote thread ;).]

Great quote from Bakker, btw (why didn't you link the article though ;) [EDIT Madness: 'Cause I just happened to be here and I'm tricksty like that]).

"Redemption" is the tricky bit there. While plenty believe the Fanim, those that accept that Gods do their own work still contend with the idea that being captured by a god might not be such a good thing. Psatma, I think, mentions that all those that pray to her and end up in her realm still end up tortured for eternity (excepting those few, few souls like herself who are truly chosen).
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Sorweel
Post by: ThoughtsOfThelli on July 17, 2017, 11:55:48 am
Realized I haven't posted in this thread yet, so here it goes.
I really liked Sorweel, it was so enjoyable to have a new character around that we could sort of relate to (not to his personal circumstances, but in the way he was a regular human among Dûnyain, half-Dûnyain, sorcerers, witches and people with unique supernatural powers). I remember thinking "oh no" when his POV started switching to White-Luck Warrior mode, and sure enough, that did not end well (so sad, especially after his reunion with poor, also-doomed Zsoronga, which was another character I liked).
At least he did seem to be headed for a better afterlife than the one awaiting the vast majority of characters, so yes, there's that. I'm currently choosing to believe that whatever awaits him in the Yatwer corner of afterlife can't be worse than hell.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Sorweel
Post by: TheCulminatingApe on July 17, 2017, 08:06:50 pm
I really liked Sorweel, it was so enjoyable to have a new character around that we could sort of relate to (not to his personal circumstances, but in the way he was a regular human among Dûnyain, half-Dûnyain, sorcerers, witches and people with unique supernatural powers). I remember thinking "oh no" when his POV started switching to White-Luck Warrior mode, and sure enough, that did not end well (so sad, especially after his reunion with poor, also-doomed Zsoronga, which was another character I liked).

I agree.  He was relatable.  I think he was a subversion of a stock fantasy character - teenage doofus from the back of beyond, gets swept up into vast events, is chosen by a god, goes on a journey to a hidden magical place, learns ancient secrets, gets stuck into a beautiful princess.  But in the end this all turns out to be relatively pointless
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Sorweel
Post by: Wilshire on July 17, 2017, 08:11:51 pm
I agree.  He was relatable.  I think he was a subversion of a stock fantasy character - teenage doofus from the back of beyond, gets swept up into vast events, is chosen by a god, goes on a journey to a hidden magical place, learns ancient secrets, gets stuck into a beautiful princess.  But in the end this all turns out to be relatively pointless

I'd bet you are probably correct, and you left out, defeats evil, lives happily ever after.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Sorweel
Post by: TheCulminatingApe on July 17, 2017, 08:33:09 pm
I agree.  He was relatable.  I think he was a subversion of a stock fantasy character - teenage doofus from the back of beyond, gets swept up into vast events, is chosen by a god, goes on a journey to a hidden magical place, learns ancient secrets, gets stuck into a beautiful princess.  But in the end this all turns out to be relatively pointless

I'd bet you are probably correct, and you left out, defeats evil, lives happily ever after.

That's because it didn't happen. Instead he gets killed by Stewie Griffin ;)
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Sorweel
Post by: Cuttlefish on July 17, 2017, 08:42:54 pm
Sorweel is the most "regular human" character in the series; I found that the only part of him that felt Bakkerian was his almost comical levels of lust (I laughed out loud when he got aroused from Serwa looking at a pouch on his belt, because it was close to his crotch). Which makes him, imo, uniquely likable - to cut it short, he was a decent guy. Alas, Earwa is not the place for decent people, and men are playthings to demons...

Also, I think I'd have enjoyed him trying to survive through the Second Apocalypse and No-God's resurrection. I wish he wasn't dead.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Sorweel
Post by: Madness on July 19, 2017, 02:35:44 pm
I really like Sorweel's story. It's a great coming of age story across the four books and distinctly Bakker.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Sorweel
Post by: codebread on July 23, 2017, 04:20:45 am
Sorweel's development as a character was probably my favorite in this series, perhaps the entire 7-book saga so far, despite my initial distaste for him. I absolutely loved that the WLW was brought back in this way-- especially so suddenly that you simply think he's gone insane at first. It makes perfect sense... of course Yatwer would find a new Warrior to use as soon as she could. You just don't expect the WLW to be brought back after its defeat in TGO.

It may have been my favorite arc in the book, actually. Damn, it was good. That being said, I kind of hope that's where Sorweel's story ends. It was so fitting, I think, to have him finally become the assassin he thought he was and ascend to heaven (if that's what happened...).
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Sorweel
Post by: Cüréthañ on July 23, 2017, 04:38:09 am
Nah, I hated the way Sorweel lost his agency and his life. Was really hoping he would continue to mature and become a Nau Cayuti type hero, shoulder to shoulder with Serwe. :(

However, his ending was so abrupt and almost indefinite enough for me to tell myself that he survived with the aid of Serwa.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Sorweel
Post by: Woden on July 23, 2017, 10:30:28 am
Nah, I hated the way Sorweel lost his agency and his life. Was really hoping he would continue to mature and become a Nau Cayuti type hero, shoulder to shoulder with Serwe. :(

I feel pretty much the same and honestly I don't think that he (unlike Kellhus and Cnaiur) will play an afterlife role in the next book.
Title: [TUC Spoilers} Sorweel
Post by: The Sharmat on August 01, 2017, 09:33:19 pm
Was I the only one that kept expecting him to show up again after getting knifed in the head? It was so unceremonious. Not even really much of a death scene. The Reader doesn't even really get to see the body. But the book goes on and he's clearly dead. So I have to wonder what the whole point of this character was. He annoyed me at first, but I really grew to like him and perversely enough ended up rooting for him and Serwa. But in the end, despite some great moments, the course of his arc just seems to be waffling over killing Kellhus then failing to kill Kellhus and abrubtly dying. Rather...anticlimactic, to me. Not just in a narrative sense, but an emotional one. In a way he was the primary protagonist of the whole Great Ordeal subplot. But it just amounts to...nothing. Am I wrong?
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers} Sorweel
Post by: littlegrice on August 01, 2017, 09:44:31 pm
I think maybe he was there mostly to show is the last Nonman Mansion and how bad it had really become for them, and to somehow have a POV that wasn't just being tortured for however long it was they were there.  Before and after that, he was just a vessel of the Dread Mother.  All of his good stuff came from the Mansion.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers} Sorweel
Post by: The Sharmat on August 01, 2017, 09:48:03 pm
Given the method of his use as a POV in the Mansion, Bakker could literally have used any character for that. It also bugs me that when he died he wasn't even really sorweel. A lot of his identity was just suddenly consumed by the White Luck with no warning. Something about the whole thing just feels off to me, and not in a good "Damn you brilliant bastard for making me like this character" way.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers} Sorweel
Post by: littlegrice on August 01, 2017, 09:57:57 pm
Given the method of his use as a POV in the Mansion, Bakker could literally have used any character for that. It also bugs me that when he died he wasn't even really sorweel. A lot of his identity was just suddenly consumed by the White Luck with no warning. Something about the whole thing just feels off to me, and not in a good "Damn you brilliant bastard for making me like this character" way.

He couldn't have though, right?  Not without using an Erratic, and we have all seen how confusing THAT is from the Atrocity Tale.  Sorweel was the only human that(sort of) had free reign in the Mansion.  I definitely agree that for as much time we spent with him, he went out quick and ugly, and to no real purpose from the viewpoint of those of us whom had begrudgingly come to like him. 
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers} Sorweel
Post by: bridgeburner on August 01, 2017, 10:02:57 pm
I kind of feel the same way. The sudden transformation into The White Luck Warrior was jarring and confusing to me, especially because the mechanics of the WLW are never clearly explained. The first WLW appeared in a whole sequence of events with draining a human and being "birthed", but then he (died?) in Momemn and suddenly was able to non-corporeally transfer to Sorweel?
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers} Sorweel
Post by: The Sharmat on August 01, 2017, 10:20:29 pm
To be fair, the White Luck Warrior also seems to have possessed the guy that he used to father himself with Psatma. It's hard to follow given the disjointed nonlinear narrative of his first PoV segment, but there's a vision of him suddenly up and leaving a woman and child that appear to be his family.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers} Sorweel
Post by: ThoughtsOfThelli on August 01, 2017, 10:30:36 pm
Was I the only one that kept expecting him to show up again after getting knifed in the head? It was so unceremonious. Not even really much of a death scene. The Reader doesn't even really get to see the body. But the book goes on and he's clearly dead. So I have to wonder what the whole point of this character was. He annoyed me at first, but I really grew to like him and perversely enough ended up rooting for him and Serwa. But in the end, despite some great moments, the course of his arc just seems to be waffling over killing Kellhus then failing to kill Kellhus and abrubtly dying. Rather...anticlimactic, to me. Not just in a narrative sense, but an emotional one. In a way he was the primary protagonist of the whole Great Ordeal subplot. But it just amounts to...nothing. Am I wrong?

I mostly agree with you, I really grew to like Sorweel as well over the course of the series and it was just so sad (and sudden) for him to die like that.
That said (and as has been mentioned in another TUC thread, I think), his whole character and arc might be a subversion of the teenage fantasy hero that has been chosen by this supernatural presence, goes on an adventure, falls in love, defeats the villain and lives happily ever after. Poor Sorweel is chosen by Yatwer, falls in love with Serwa and survives Ishterebinth, but ultimately fails to kill Kellhus and is unceremoniously murdered.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Sorweel
Post by: Madness on August 01, 2017, 10:36:09 pm
Was I the only one that kept expecting him to show up again after getting knifed in the head? It was so unceremonious. Not even really much of a death scene. The Reader doesn't even really get to see the body. But the book goes on and he's clearly dead. So I have to wonder what the whole point of this character was. He annoyed me at first, but I really grew to like him and perversely enough ended up rooting for him and Serwa. But in the end, despite some great moments, the course of his arc just seems to be waffling over killing Kellhus then failing to kill Kellhus and abrubtly dying. Rather...anticlimactic, to me. Not just in a narrative sense, but an emotional one. In a way he was the primary protagonist of the whole Great Ordeal subplot. But it just amounts to...nothing. Am I wrong?

Merged threads... we have almost two pages of current threads in this subforum and there was a pre-existing Sorweel thread. It's getting ridiculous, though so very nice to see the forum active.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Sorweel
Post by: The Sharmat on August 01, 2017, 11:01:25 pm
That said (and as has been mentioned in another TUC thread, I think), his whole character and arc might be a subversion of the teenage fantasy hero that has been chosen by this supernatural presence, goes on an adventure, falls in love, defeats the villain and lives happily ever after. Poor Sorweel is chosen by Yatwer, falls in love with Serwa and survives Ishterebinth, but ultimately fails to kill Kellhus and is unceremoniously murdered.
I'd be ok with that but the way it's handled makes it seem like an afterthought. I mean Zsoronga's dead sure and Sorweel was kind of an isolate among the Ordeal in the first place but he drops and afterwards not so much as a thought is spared for him, in a series that turns heavily on introspection it's very noticeable as an omission to me.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Sorweel
Post by: Wilshire on June 12, 2019, 06:37:05 pm
I took it as that Yatwer saved Sorweel from hell. Which makes Sorweel the third non damned character after Mim and Esmi.

Yatwer reached for Sorweel and brought him into her embrace, and presumably her after-life. Though, it seems no one has yet pointed out that even her most devout admit that and afterlife in Yatwer's presence would not be a pleasant one. There's a chance his ultimate fate is no better than anyone else's.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Sorweel
Post by: Jabberwock03 on November 23, 2019, 01:41:35 pm
Personally I didn't really liked or disliked Sorweel. He was too normal for my taste. But I love when he had the helmet (can't remember the name) on his head in the mansion.
When reading fantasy, I love out of norm characters (or I would read realistic novels). I don't especially mean non-human characters, for example Cnaïur is one of my favorite as he is some crazy MOFO knowing the truth.

About the gods, I don't think his fate is better than anyone else. My understanding is that being faithful to Yatwer is just seasoning you for Yatwer taste. You are being eaten for all eternity in the end, just by a god and not a deamon.
My interpretation of the books is that gods are just deamon who succed in making humans believe they are good, just because they like chilli pepper instead of classic pepper on their souls.