Post by: profgrape on October 13, 2014, 08:04:05 pm
This got me thinking: why are the Inchoroi damned?
I'd always assumed that the Inchoroi were damned because of their obscene behavior. But after pondering things, I think I got the causality backwards. It's far more likely that they first learned of their damnation and then freed of remorse, proceeded to mutate into the rape aliens they are in TSA.
What that "the race of lovers'" crimes were nothing more than "prurient interest" as defined by a conservative ideology? There are plenty of folks in the US who seem pretty sure of a casual link between homosexuality and damnation -- why not in the Earwa-verse?
Post by: Wilshire on October 13, 2014, 08:20:59 pm
Outside of that, I don't know. The damnation mechanics are still rather shrouded in mystery.
Cause and affect chains get all messed up if you think that TJE or TIF show an individual who is damned because of future events rather than their current state.
Post by: Bolivar on October 13, 2014, 10:48:27 pm
1) I read an interview where Bakker was asked about the Inchoroi and he only vaguely answered by pointing out how division of labor gives people more time to pursue their interests or pleasures. Given how advanced they are, they've likely had plenty of time to refine their adoration of the flesh.
2) this is Bakker's universe and he is of the opinion that scientific understanding necessarily displaces our notions of cosmic significance. On such a teleological timeline, their scientific sophistication suggests they probably had a very nihilistic view about themselves and the universe. It's easy to see how such a race would be inclined towards hedonism, without any fear of an afterlife, karma, or any format of idealism for that matter.
So they were free of conscious and obligations to go to pursue their carnal pleasure, only to discover (or accidentally misinterpret) that damnation is actually real. I suspect Bakker is positioning the Inchoroi as what we may easily become, and alot sooner than you might think. As we recognize the arbitrary nature of our traditional sexual prohibitions and further develop our ability to physically modify ourselves, it's not to far fetched that we would be rocking clam heads with wings and pheromone releases
Post by: Aural on October 13, 2014, 11:06:29 pm
Quote
“So what are you, then?” Kellhus asked. “What are the Inchoroi?”
“We,” she cooed, “are a race of lovers.”
...
“And for this you are damned.”
Speaks for itself. As for why being a race of lovers damned them my crackpot is that it had something to do with the Nonmen worshiping the places between the stars (or the Gods, can't remember what it was.)
Post by: Wilshire on October 14, 2014, 12:55:23 pm
The problem is that being damned for being a race of lovers offers no revelations. If you want mundane, then how about anyone who has sex, or even simply loves, is damned for not devoting their lives fully to the Gods.
Agree fully....
2) this is Bakker's universe and he is of the opinion that scientific understanding necessarily displaces our notions of cosmic significance.
...
I suspect Bakker is positioning the Inchoroi as what we may easily become, and alot sooner than you might think. As we recognize the arbitrary nature of our traditional sexual prohibitions and further develop our ability to physically modify ourselves, it's not to far fetched that we would be rocking clam heads with wings and pheromone releases
Post by: Aural on October 14, 2014, 02:54:45 pm
Not sure what you mean by 'if you want mundane'. Damnation does not arise mundanely.
Post by: Wilshire on October 14, 2014, 03:05:20 pm
Post by: Aural on October 14, 2014, 03:16:45 pm
Post by: Wilshire on October 14, 2014, 03:44:30 pm
Post by: Aural on October 14, 2014, 04:33:31 pm
Quote
“We were born for damnation’s sake,” she said with deceptive calm. “Our very nature is our transgression. Look at this exquisite body. The heights of her bosom. The temple of her sex. I climb and I enter because I must.” She fingered her pubis as she spoke, clutched tight her left breast. “And for this?” she gasped. “For this I am to heave and scream in lakes of fire? Because of boundaries of skin?”
Also take into account Kellhus's thoughts when he mentions the 'chorus of their lusts ... shrieking harem' and the scene at the end of TWP, and it's quite obvious what the word 'lovers' is supposed to imply, I think.
Post by: mrganondorf on October 14, 2014, 04:45:53 pm
Post by: Aural on October 14, 2014, 04:57:39 pm
Post by: Wilshire on October 14, 2014, 05:18:25 pm
Whatever the cause, I think their damnation will be something "unfair", something that seems outside of their control. But I think that the reader will somehow feel sorry for the Inchoroi even though they are almost unspeakably evil.
Post by: Ozark on October 15, 2014, 01:24:33 am
This could tie in with Kellhus as a messianic figure who will bring knowledge to the world of how to avoid damnation, whereas previous generations didn't have that option.
Post by: Wilshire on October 15, 2014, 03:51:56 pm
Post by: mrganondorf on October 20, 2014, 11:50:33 pm
Post by: Aural on October 20, 2014, 11:53:23 pm
Post by: mrganondorf on October 21, 2014, 10:25:36 pm
You're saying that he wants all the damnation for himself? Is that how he'll save everyone, by taking their damnation? Then he truly is mad.
maybe, or maybe he just wants damnation period--the text might be telling us the truth, that he is crazy. although, maybe he knows that collecting all damnation in a single person would make him some kind of ubergod, idk
Post by: Somnambulist on October 21, 2014, 10:34:19 pm
Post by: mrganondorf on November 04, 2014, 12:20:06 pm
Christ-figure? Taking the world's sins upon himself to ascend?
or a bigger bully than any cabal of gods without particularly caring about who's saved in the process
Post by: Wilshire on November 10, 2014, 08:24:15 pm
Christ-figure? Taking the world's sins upon himself to ascend?
Kellhus as the anti-christ that is Christ is an interesting idea.
Post by: Somnambulist on November 11, 2014, 04:24:03 pm
Post by: Wilshire on November 11, 2014, 04:35:53 pm
Post by: Somnambulist on November 11, 2014, 05:52:31 pm
Post by: Wilshire on November 11, 2014, 06:18:49 pm
Post by: mrganondorf on November 16, 2014, 08:11:39 pm
In that vein, in an appropriately inverted Bakker way... Kellhus manages to slough his own damnation off onto his followers in order to purify himself and ascend. Cheeky fucker.
this would have a nice existential feel--if God does exist, then you are just as screwed