Why are the Inchoroi damned?

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profgrape

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« on: October 13, 2014, 08:04:05 pm »
In The False Sun, Shaeönanra reflects on how viewing the IF left them "immune to the least remorse".  Once you know you're damned without retribution, consequences don't matter so much.

This got me thinking: why are the Inchoroi damned?

I'd always assumed that the Inchoroi were damned because of their obscene behavior.  But after pondering things, I think I got the causality backwards.  It's far more likely that they first learned of their damnation and then freed of remorse, proceeded to mutate into the rape aliens they are in TSA.

What that "the race of lovers'" crimes were nothing more than "prurient interest" as defined by a conservative ideology?  There are plenty of folks in the US who seem pretty sure of a casual link between homosexuality and damnation -- why not in the Earwa-verse?

Wilshire

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« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2014, 08:20:59 pm »
Others have speculated that the Inchoroi, and any other intelligent being with a soul, is damn simply because they either do not exist on Earwa or because they are not "humans". Earwa is the promised land, according to the Inchoroi, but its not said how or why they came to that conclusion. Something about the metaphysics of Earwa make it special and the Inchoroi believe it will unlock their salvation.

Outside of that, I don't know. The damnation mechanics are still rather shrouded in mystery.

Cause and affect chains get all messed up if you think that TJE or TIF show an individual who is damned because of future events rather than their current state.
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Bolivar

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« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2014, 10:48:27 pm »
I guess it's a chicken or the egg scenario but I tend to think the Inchoroi's proclivities preceded (and caused) their damnation. It comes back to them being a very technologically advanced society for two reasons:

1) I read an interview where Bakker was asked about the Inchoroi and he only vaguely answered by pointing out how division of labor gives people more time to pursue their interests or pleasures. Given how advanced they are, they've likely had plenty of time to refine their adoration of the flesh.

2) this is Bakker's universe and he is of the opinion that scientific understanding necessarily displaces our notions of cosmic significance. On such a teleological timeline, their scientific sophistication suggests they probably had a very nihilistic view about themselves and the universe. It's easy to see how such a race would be inclined towards hedonism, without any fear of an afterlife, karma, or any format of idealism for that matter.

So they were free of conscious and obligations to go to pursue their carnal pleasure, only to discover (or accidentally misinterpret) that damnation is actually real. I suspect Bakker is positioning the Inchoroi as what we may easily become, and alot sooner than you might think. As we recognize the arbitrary nature of our traditional sexual prohibitions and further develop our ability to physically modify ourselves, it's not to far fetched that we would be rocking clam heads with wings and pheromone releases

Aural

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« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2014, 11:06:29 pm »
Quote
“So what are you, then?” Kellhus asked. “What are the Inchoroi?”

“We,” she cooed, “are a race of lovers.”

...

“And for this you are damned.”

Speaks for itself. As for why being a race of lovers damned them my crackpot is that it had something to do with the Nonmen worshiping the places between the stars (or the Gods, can't remember what it was.)

Wilshire

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« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2014, 12:55:23 pm »
Spaces between the gods.


The problem is that being damned for being a race of lovers offers no revelations. If you want mundane, then how about anyone who has sex, or even simply loves, is damned for not devoting their lives fully to the Gods.

...
2) this is Bakker's universe and he is of the opinion that scientific understanding necessarily displaces our notions of cosmic significance.
...

I suspect Bakker is positioning the Inchoroi as what we may easily become, and alot sooner than you might think. As we recognize the arbitrary nature of our traditional sexual prohibitions and further develop our ability to physically modify ourselves, it's not to far fetched that we would be rocking clam heads with wings and pheromone releases
Agree fully.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2014, 12:59:27 pm by Wilshire »
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Aural

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« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2014, 02:54:45 pm »
Perhaps it's not how the Inchoroi see it, but 'lovers' is meant ironically by Bakker. They are a race of rapists. Judged by the morals of the Nonmen.

Not sure what you mean by 'if you want mundane'. Damnation does not arise mundanely.

Wilshire

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« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2014, 03:05:20 pm »
I just meant that you're taking a rather narrow view of the text, so I was taking it another step towards simplicity. If the text "speaks for itself" then there's no need to add in irony or metaphors. Thus, lovers simply means lovers.
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Aural

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« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2014, 03:16:45 pm »
The text can speak metaphorically.

Wilshire

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« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2014, 03:44:30 pm »
The text can speak in any way it wants, was the point :P. "Speaks for itself" is not a particularly enlightening conclusion ;).
« Last Edit: October 14, 2014, 03:55:11 pm by Wilshire »
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Aural

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« Reply #9 on: October 14, 2014, 04:33:31 pm »
You're way too hung up on the 'text speaks for itself' bit. What I meant is that the answer is not hidden beneath a mountain of clues; the text says outright that they are damned for being a 'race of lovers'. Aurang also expands on it in that very scene,

Quote
“We were born for damnation’s sake,” she said with deceptive calm. “Our very nature is our transgression. Look at this exquisite body. The heights of her bosom. The temple of her sex. I climb and I enter because I must.” She fingered her pubis as she spoke, clutched tight her left breast. “And for this?” she gasped. “For this I am to heave and scream in lakes of fire? Because of boundaries of skin?”

Also take into account Kellhus's thoughts when he mentions the 'chorus of their lusts ... shrieking harem' and the scene at the end of TWP, and it's quite obvious what the word 'lovers' is supposed to imply, I think.

mrganondorf

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« Reply #10 on: October 14, 2014, 04:45:53 pm »
inchoroi damned because they are descended from nonmen eons ago and refused to worship the gods out of spite and pride?  the gods took offense and so every new inchoroi born in the ark was damned before hand, never was 'not damned'?  perhaps damnation is the nascent state of every new soul in the bakkerverse?  the inverse fire brings absolute certainty of that individual, existential damnation and so frees a body to do whatever?

Aural

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« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2014, 04:57:39 pm »
Could also be that the way they are born is blasphemous to begin with. Or the way they've modified their bodies. They are abominations to the Earwans after all.

Wilshire

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« Reply #12 on: October 14, 2014, 05:18:25 pm »
More or less, I dislike "obvious" since I feel it unnecessarily insults those that disagree or don't see it (and latched onto "speaks for itself" since its pretty much equivalent). A personal peeve, obviously.


Whatever the cause, I think their damnation will be something "unfair", something that seems outside of their control. But I think that the reader will somehow feel sorry for the Inchoroi even though they are almost unspeakably evil.
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Ozark

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« Reply #13 on: October 15, 2014, 01:24:33 am »
Do we have any reason to believe that damnation isn't the default setting for Earwan souls, and that salvation has to be earned via some heretofore unknown mechanism?

This could tie in with Kellhus as a messianic figure who will bring knowledge to the world of how to avoid damnation, whereas previous generations didn't have that option.

Wilshire

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« Reply #14 on: October 15, 2014, 03:51:56 pm »
No reason I can recall for damnation not to be the default, but for some reason I rebel against the thought of Kellhus being in a 'true' messiah.
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