Other Titles > Disciple of the Dog
Just started this...posting my thoughts (and just general discussion)
Royce:
Just read Neuropath FB, it will scare you shitless:)
Francis Buck:
I find that hard to believe given what I know of Bakker's philosophy and the novel itself, but it's certainly on my list. I'd enjoy being genuinely scared shitless by some fiction.
Royce:
--- Quote ---I find that hard to believe given what I know of Bakker's philosophy and the novel itself, but it's certainly on my list. I'd enjoy being genuinely scared shitless by some fiction.
--- End quote ---
It is not directly frightening on a personal level, more that the ideas on neuroscientific development are not really fiction.
These methods might be used some day, and that scares me.
Madness:
--- Quote from: Francis Buck on January 07, 2014, 02:38:39 am ---I find that hard to believe given what I know of Bakker's philosophy and the novel itself, but it's certainly on my list. I'd enjoy being genuinely scared shitless by some fiction.
--- End quote ---
It'll always be one of my favorites. It made me wish that Bakker would try his hand at horror and provided another layer of excitement whenever I read the shades of Neuropath in TSA.
--- Quote from: Francis Buck on January 06, 2014, 10:20:05 pm ---Alright then, I finished it last night. After digesting a little, I'd say that, overall, I thought it was only decent. There were flickers of greatness here and there, and I suspect that if this had been more of a "main project", rather than a side-one that he wrote in three months, it likely would have turned pretty fantastic. Regardless, I still found it an enjoyable and occasionally amusing read.
--- End quote ---
His plan allegedly was to balance something he could write while maintaining all the ongoing projects.
I would hope that Bakker also had an overarching idea for some fitting Moriarty character. It was what it was. Disciple came out before WLW. He's probably dead :(.
--- Quote from: Francis Buck on January 06, 2014, 10:20:05 pm ---My thoughts:
- Disciple, as a character, was pretty well realized. I didn't really like his "voice" though. I found it...I'm not sure, grating. The idioms and stuff put me off a bit, and in general there was an air of someone that thinks they're utterly hilarious, but really isn't. I get that Bakker wasn't exactly trying to make a super likable guy here, and I certainly don't need likable characters to enjoy literature by any means, but I felt like Diss just wasn't quite properly executed. The humor is a big thing. I think I just have a somewhat different sense of humor than Bakker or something, at least in the way it translates through his writing. TSA is virtually without levity for me, aside from the absurdity of Xerius's personality and the batshit craziness of Cnaiur. In DotD, I genuinely laughed maybe two or threes times. One was when he said (in reference to the size of Baars' mouth): "I tried to picture him eating a hamburger -- couldn't do it".
--- End quote ---
Interesting. What did you think about the strength of individual metaphors? Many of his comparisons make me smile or laugh, possibly more-so than the intended humor between the characters.
Also, I thought the small-town, Third Reich Church, pretty humourous.
--- Quote from: Francis Buck on January 06, 2014, 10:20:05 pm ---- The plot was good, but I did not find the ending very satisfying to be honest. The twists, while surprising, didn't have a lot of oomph for me.
- By far the best parts of the novel are the sequences when he's replaying old scenes in his head, but with a new context. That stuff was a great, and it's a brilliant literary device.
- None of the characters did much for me aside from Diss, Baars, and the cop (having a brain-lapse here on his name). The latter, especially, was very well done. I loved the scene where he draws X's on the map, and all Diss can think about is how gay they look. That got a good chuckle out of me too. I found Molly boring. I'm also still made uncomfortable with Bakker's writing about women. I don't know what it is in particular, but it just...I don't know, makes me feel sticky.
- I liked that, in a weird way, Diss does very little the entire novel that really contributes to the case. He basically just smokes pot and figures everything out in his head while watching CNN, but by then it doesn't even matter. This might be the most hilarious part of the book, really.
- Diss starts farting when he gets into dangerous situations. Brilliantly subversive of genre tropes.
So yeah, those are my off the cuff thoughts. I do have more, particularly in regards to the ties with TSA (especially concepts of memory, of course), but I'm short on time. Again, it was an entertaining read, but I feel like it just lacked enough polish in the big areas (plot, characters, resolution) to be considered a real success. I'd definitely be interested in reading a sequel.
--- End quote ---
- The plot seems to establish what it needed to as an introduction to the character. I was also surprised by the ending (which I liked) but then I realized Bakker had more books planned.
- I too enjoy the fictive device. I was excited for the inevitable cross-section of his memories and his war buddy story, which I'm sure Bakker would dole out over successive novels.
- I actually have studied detective fiction a bit and Bakker's par for the course. He consciously built up the misogyny aspects of his blog during that time and gave Disciple a few disclaimers. But the history of detective fiction is notoriously misogynist. The women is always guilty of something. And realistically, I could spend some time reading different sections of Disciple to give them better analysis because I feel like Disciple's commentary is more than half the gold in the book. Disciple is talking to the people in our world (though, I can understand how colloquialisms annoy people).
- I thought that this felt the like the overall thrust of the book and something I've tried to breakdown in the mixtape (as far as I've gotten). Disciple fits some of the traditional modes in many creative ways. In a surprising amount of detective fiction, the detective doesn't actually affect any solution in his interaction with the case, only offers the most comprehensive description of what has occurred. Also, the detective is notorious for introducing violence into the world he enters, by his presence (for instance, all the things that occurred with the Church of the Third Reich that would not have happened but for Disciple).
- Farts are subversive. But there is more depth. I think, you underestimate the man's commitment to dismantling genre tropes.
Just thoughts. You're the third person to muse openly about Disciple.
But I am excited and on my way to being late.
Cheers, FB, Royce.
Francis Buck:
--- Quote from: Madness on January 07, 2014, 01:16:15 pm ---Interesting. What did you think about the strength of individual metaphors? Many of his comparisons make me smile or laugh, possibly more-so than the intended humor between the characters.
Also, I thought the small-town, Third Reich Church, pretty humourous.
--- End quote ---
Bakker's pretty great with metaphors in general. As far as DotG goes though, I can't say anything really stood out to me in particular, but that doesn't mean there weren't any.
--- Quote ---- The plot seems to establish what it needed to as an introduction to the character. I was also surprised by the ending (which I liked) but then I realized Bakker had more books planned.
--- End quote ---
Yeah, I can see what you mean in the context of this being an introduction to a series. I'm not really sure what it was about the ending exactly, but it just lacked oomph for me. The resolution to the mystery and all, I don't know, it fell a bit flat I guess.
--- Quote ---- I too enjoy the fictive device. I was excited for the inevitable cross-section of his memories and his war buddy story, which I'm sure Bakker would dole out over successive novels.
--- End quote ---
That's an interesting point, regarding the war buddy. I was actually wondering after reading it why that character didn't seem to have any "arc" so to speak (not really the right word), but again it definitely makes more sense in thinking of this as an introductory novel.
--- Quote ---- I actually have studied detective fiction a bit and Bakker's par for the course. He consciously built up the misogyny aspects of his blog during that time and gave Disciple a few disclaimers. But the history of detective fiction is notoriously misogynist. The women is always guilty of something. And realistically, I could spend some time reading different sections of Disciple to give them better analysis because I feel like Disciple's commentary is more than half the gold in the book. Disciple is talking to the people in our world (though, I can understand how colloquialisms annoy people).
--- End quote ---
Can you elaborate on how he "consciously built up the misogyny aspects of his blog during that time and gave Disciple a few disclaimers"? Not really sure what you mean. As for it being par for the course, while that's true, it's just the way Bakker writes that gets to me. It's the same exact thing in TSA. I mean, I don't think Bakker is literally some kind of woman hating misogynist or anything, but I also can't ignore that the same faint air of...I don't know, almost casual sexism (like he doesn't even realize it), happens to pop up again in a completely separate work. And hell, if he's subverting all these other detective genre tropes, why not subvert that one? It's just weird to me. But, I digress, I don't want this to turn into a huge "Bakker-and-misogyny" thing simply because I've been through the debate too many times and I'm kinda weary of it.
--- Quote ---- Farts are subversive. But there is more depth. I think, you underestimate the man's commitment to dismantling genre tropes.
--- End quote ---
Elaborate?
ETA: Started to read Neuropath today as well, actually got about half-way through. It's...interesting. Not sure how I feel about it quite yet, I'll post my thoughts when I'm done though.
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