“But souls are exceedingly complicated,” he continued. “Far more so than the crude sorceries used to trap them. The intricacies of identity are always sheared away. Memory. Faculty. Character. These are cast into the pit... Only the most base urges survive in proxies.”
-The text is deliberately misguiding about the Psukhe and true the extent of the Cishaurim's abilities (or any one else who can tap into the Water -- I don't believe it's exclusive to the Cish). What the Psukhe lacks in raw power it makes up for in subtly, illusion, scrying, dreamwalking. Because of the employment of a traditional, western concept of the Male Gaze through which the series is (mostly) told, and from the patriarchal society of the Three Seas, the Psukhe is disregarded as inferior abominations so "Other" that barely anyone even tries to understand. This is, of course, just about the worst possible way to approach to the Cish, an institution that's seemingly founded on techniques of subterfuge, misinformation, and working as invisibly as possible. Like a spy organization...
Anyway, that's also a great rabbit hole. Lots of implications, I think, if you consider that the Cish are a blindspot of the God(s), just like the consult's weapon races. Intellects without souls (tekne creation), and Souls without Spirits (puskhari). Maybe, then, the God(s) are blind to things without a Spirit, rather than souls, aka, sranc don't have a 'self'(Spirit), so they are incomprehensible and therefore invisible.
not going to comment on Moenghus and his puskhe power
Passion, being a base instinct, makes sense that it would be part of 'the legion within' that all Dunyain must yoke to survive in Ishual. That it could then later be wielded rather than closed off is a great idea.
Spirit/Soul.
Interesting thoughts. I'm not sure I fully agree with your interpretation of what's what, but that they are discrete things is also a helpful way to view Earwa. Nomenclature is important, and this helps me parse things (I think?).
Question, that the gods are blind to the Cish themselves, rather than just their sorcery, is an assumption, yeah? There's no text that says that right? Not that the absence makes you wrong, just wanting to be sure.
Anyway, that's also a great rabbit hole. Lots of implications, I think, if you consider that the Cish are a blindspot of the God(s), just like the consult's weapon races. Intellects without souls (tekne creation), and Souls without Spirits (puskhari). Maybe, then, the God(s) are blind to things without a Spirit, rather than souls, aka, sranc don't have a 'self'(Spirit), so they are incomprehensible and therefore invisible.
Though, that makes me wonder, the NG possessing all the sranc.... something. Another time.
The Lesser Proyas (the Worldly incarnation of Proyas) is weak, which makes the Greater Proyas (the Spiritual part) strong. This is reversed in the case Saubon. A massive, nearly all-encompassing theme/motif of the series is "inversion". Everything's flipped upside down and turned inside out. It permeates every aspect of the series, from metaphysics, to worldbuilding, even down to names (surname first, given name second).
Saubon's error is seeing Kellhus as the embodiment power. Saubon believes that strength while living is all-important, and further more, he is precisely described as being incapable of truly worshiping or submitting to another man. This makes Saubon strong on the outside, but weak on the inside.
Upon death, one is "turned inside out"...so in the Outside all that Worldly strength is useless, because the inner-self is what gets exposed.
Proyas is the opposite. Suffering, doubt, self-hatred, self-loathing -- these make you truly strong. Being broken to such an extent you cannot be broken anymore.
Of course, all of this inverting/subverting works specifically because the series is written with a traditional, Western, Judeo-Christian (ideally male and heterosexual) perspective in mind.
Regarding your thoughts on the weapon races, I believe that is definitely the right track. I also think that the weapon races have been deliberately set up as a way of twisting the reader's expectations down the road, particularly regarding the Skin-Spies, but even Sranc and Bashrag. I have no clue how it will play out exactly of course, but I feel pretty strongly that idea of the Tekne creations being mere soulless husks will be flipped on its head and used as an example to show reader's that, functionally, there is no real difference between consciousness as experienced by a human and consciousness as experienced by a Skin-Spy, other than programming (and anatomy, I guess). Both are equally subject the Darkness that Comes Before, and humans possess no substantially greater level of "freedom" compared to the Skin-Spies. In fact, one could say the Skin-Spies are even more liberated than humans. Sure, they're yoked to the Inchoroi's commands by promise of sexual release, but then...look at Cnaiur and the Thing-Called-Serwe in TGO. Who seems more free in that dynamic? Who's playing who?
Same goes for Kellhus's dominion over just about everyone. He simply has more tools at his disposal. Swap Proyas's religious piety for sexual release, and he's just as much a puppet for Kellhus as the Skin-Spies are for Aurang...
Flee Dagliash! his voice boomed. Across the Erengaw and the root of the Urokkas, the combatants looked up and wondered.It's specifically the last sentence, turned as if Dagliash could see/witness.
Flee! Hide yourself from its sight!
And so it was with the Absolute. Surrender. Forfeiture . Loss … At last he understood what made these things holy. Loss was advantage. Blindness was insight, revelation . At last he could see it—the sideways step that gave lie to Logos. Zero. Zero made One.
The nuke at Dagliash creates (or reïnforces? Although I don't think the death of the Nonmen and the Diurnal there created one) a topos, a link to the Outside. The way we see it through the eyes of Saubon, I read a connection between the topoi at Mengedda and the one at Dagliash.
Nice catch: A variant on "The meak shall inherit the earth", then?
If my memory serves, she recognizes Somma as a Skin-Spy only when she sees him fight to protect her. I can't remember her seeing him under TJE.
Nice catch: A variant on "The meak shall inherit the earth", then?
If my memory serves, she recognizes Somma as a Skin-Spy only when she sees him fight to protect her. I can't remember her seeing him under TJE.
Bonus: The Scylvendi’s swazond are, in fact, an example of what Achamian calls “the crude sorceries used to trap” souls. This is part of what makes Cnaiur so powerful and age-defying. By capturing the raw soul of his victims, he actually makes his own soul stronger.
Nice catch: A variant on "The meak shall inherit the earth", then?
If my memory serves, she recognizes Somma as a Skin-Spy only when she sees him fight to protect her. I can't remember her seeing him under TJE.
I'd like to go back and read and see if we can pick up any subtle clues. She does remark in Cil-Aujus that he is not a man. So, I think through her training from Kellhus she picked up on that. But, more than anything I go back to Canuir's with the SS's during TTT. We find a lot out about their nature in those moments. And, nothing textually points to them having souls. Maybe, a twist, but I find it supremely unlikely. They used the Skin-Spies, Hashtag and other creations to help in reducing the population of Earwa, ergo the amount of souls. There is said to be At and beyond number, that would hinder reducing the amount of souls in Earwa. And if souls are what are needed to resurrect the No-God, a concept I am coming around to, why not just use the countless Skin-Spies to fulfill that role? Nah, all signs to point to product of the Texhne NOT having souls.
Or perhaps they simply do not have souls yet, which in the timeless Outside would mean they do in fact have souls, and only appear to be void from the limited perspective of a mortal...
Or perhaps they simply do not have souls yet, which in the timeless Outside would mean they do in fact have souls, and only appear to be void from the limited perspective of a mortal...
If they all ended up gaining souls though, that would kind of make the whole Inchoroi plan sort of dumb in the end. Unless Kellhus someone ensouls them all, which seems kind of out there, but maybe possible, although I have no idea why he would.
I'm also playing devil's advocate somewhat with the sranc or other soulless being becoming automatically ensouled or something in the Outside. However, I do think that the story is using its own genre as a way of tricking otherwise savvy readers of SF into missing common themes. The skin-spies, in particular, are just robots made of meat (like humans). Unlike say, the aliens from Blindsight by Peter Watts as Wilshire mentioned, which are presented literally as creatures without any sentient experience (OR ARE THEY?), multiple skin-spies have a POV perspective that is humanlike, if not beyond human, but with the integrated programming limitation of an insatiable sexual desire to serve their overlords. Even a sranc has POV in WLW when Somandutta appears before it, which is basically portrayed as a rightfully confused animal that senses what seems like typical normal prey (human), but is off just enough so that it doesn't know what to make of it.
TL;DR What makes a Skin-Spy different from Asimov's robots and their three laws? The Weapon Races (aside from Dragons perhaps) are quite literally artificial intelligence
Yup. In nearly all cases I cringe when people discuss 'natural' . Its either in reference to something that's explicitly supernatural, ie coming from some sort of metaphysical deity, or totally meaningless as to what distinguishes it from whatever unnatural counterpart.TL;DR What makes a Skin-Spy different from Asimov's robots and their three laws? The Weapon Races (aside from Dragons perhaps) are quite literally artificial intelligenceWhich is to say that "natural" is a pretty meaningless term once fully unpacked.
I can't follow that a spin-spy is a robot. It is simply a sentient animal.There is no difference between a sentient robot and a sentient animal, except the hardware maybe. I
It just lacks a soul.Right :)
Same with Sranc and Bashrag. They aren't AI because their intelligence is "natural", that is, simply a debased version of a NonmanThey are an intelligence created using technology. Not sure how you get more Artificial than that. But, as I mentioned initially, 'natural'?
, in the same way that a dog's intelligence is a heightened version of a wolf's.Quick aside, I'm pretty sure in this analogy the Wolf is the Nonman, the Dog Sranc. Similarly, dogs are dumbed down versions of wolves - if there is in fact any functional way to measure the intelligence of either (dogs/wolves I mean. I'm sure you could get a sranc and a Nonman to take an IQ test ;) )
In another real-life example, we don't make robot sheep that are subservient to us, we just breed out any signs of heightened awareness or intelligence. In the same way, Sranc were probably "made" by either breeding out, or using the Bios to delete, the higher cognitive abilities of Nonmen. A Scranc's brutality isn't coded, per se, it is simply what's left after higher functionality is removed.What's the difference between the two things you described - selective breeding or using the Bios to delete, and coding?
A skin-spy is a little different, but I don't think it is literally coded, in the same way that a robot would be. I think the "issues" we see with skin-spies are more due to their limited capacity in having no souls, rather than than a limitation of coding. Indeed, I think skin-spies can act "outside of the box" as Soma seems to do with Mimara, where he changes the mission based on what he thinks Aurang wants. Sure that could be some sophisticated neural network sort of shit, but considering how limited the Tekne is at the time when skin-spies seem to come to be, I can't imagine that their minds are much more than warped human brains.The amount of understanding you'd have to have to create even a simulacrum of a mind in a functioning, artificially created, organic body capable of complex thoughts and reasoning, would be pretty immense. Skinspies are sophisticated as fuck. Call it selective evolution or organic-coding, I don't see any difference.
The amount of understanding you'd have to have to create even a simulacrum of a mind in a functioning, artificially created, organic body capable of complex thoughts and reasoning, would be pretty immense. Skinspies are sophisticated as fuck. Call it selective evolution or organic-coding, I don't see any difference.
There is no difference between a sentient robot and a sentient animal, except the hardware maybe.
They are an intelligence created using technology. Not sure how you get more Artificial than that. But, as I mentioned initially, 'natural'?
Do you mean anything 'natural' must have been created by Ciphrang/Gods/Gods/Zero-God/Solitary God/[insert whatever metaphysical supernatural being ends up being correct]? If so, then any of the derived are unnatural/artificial.
Or does a 'natural' process have to arise from random change? ie Evolution? If so, sranc must be unnatural/artificial in that they were created systematically by the Inchoroi.
Quick aside, I'm pretty sure in this analogy the Wolf is the Nonman, the Dog Sranc. Similarly, dogs are dumbed down versions of wolves - if there is in fact any functional way to measure the intelligence of either (dogs/wolves I mean. I'm sure you could get a sranc and a Nonman to take an IQ test ;) )
What's the difference between the two things you described - selective breeding or using the Bios to delete, and coding?
I don't see any difference. In either case, you are purposefully creating a set of instruction that are hard wired into the electronic bearing circuitry of the thing - be it a positronic brain or a wet brain. In either case you have neurons or circuits that fire in the pattern that you prefer, and don't fire in a way you don't prefer.
Organic tissues and DNA are no different from inorganic metals, organic wires (remember, organic refers to just about anything with Carbon in it, as long as it doesn't have any of the listed 'inorganic' atoms), and computer code.
Kellhus and Moe met outside the view of the eyes of the gods?
The whole point of the mansions seems to be to hide from the gods.
And, yes, I'm saying there is no difference between a rat terrier a robot in terms of thinking capacity. There's research into making organic computers, and research into making computers sentient. It goes both ways. The differences are superficial. Its all just atoms and electricity.
We're working from pretty different fundamental frames of mind. I don't think there will be much reconciliation here. But, if there is to be, we should focus on a smaller scope lol.
Kellhus and Moe met outside the view of the eyes of the gods?
The whole point of the mansions seems to be to hide from the gods.
Good point. Perhaps that is part of TTT though, hiding it from the gods as well?
And, yes, I'm saying there is no difference between a rat terrier a robot in terms of thinking capacity. There's research into making organic computers, and research into making computers sentient. It goes both ways. The differences are superficial. Its all just atoms and electricity.
We're working from pretty different fundamental frames of mind. I don't think there will be much reconciliation here. But, if there is to be, we should focus on a smaller scope lol.
At that point though, every living thing is a robot, so what is the point of distinction?
Kellhus and Moe met outside the view of the eyes of the gods?
The whole point of the mansions seems to be to hide from the gods.
Good point. Perhaps that is part of TTT though, hiding it from the gods as well?
Also the place where Inri ascended to heaven. If one believes the entry in the glossary.
Well the whole series could be called the TTT, the series starts with Moe enacting it, although as he said he was quite unprepared when the first of the thought came to him. PoN is everyone walking the TTT as is TAE.
The TTT came to Moe out of the darkness as well.
I'm back into full Moe is behind everything mode.
Well, first, what is sentience? What is consciousness? Unanswered, and currently afaik, unanswerable.
A computer is basically clumps of circuits firing through logic gates that are either On or Off, you called it binary code. The brain is the same thing. Clumps of neuron that are either firing or not, ie binary. Same thing imo. Code tells the circuits how/where to fire, whether its a person that write the code or macromolecules making up DNA.
Artificial Intelligence and Intelligence are functionally indistinguishable at the level of electricity. The thing carrying the current should be irrelevant.
And, yes, I'm saying there is no difference between a rat terrier a robot in terms of thinking capacity. There's research into making organic computers, and research into making computers sentient. It goes both ways. The differences are superficial. Its all just atoms and electricity.
We're working from pretty different fundamental frames of mind. I don't think there will be much reconciliation here. But, if there is to be, we should focus on a smaller scope lol.
Kellhus and Moe met outside the view of the eyes of the gods?
The whole point of the mansions seems to be to hide from the gods.
Good point. Perhaps that is part of TTT though, hiding it from the gods as well?
Also the place where Inri ascended to heaven. If one believes the entry in the glossary.
Well the whole series could be called the TTT, the series starts with Moe enacting it, although as he said he was quite unprepared when the first of the thought came to him. PoN is everyone walking the TTT as is TAE.
The TTT came to Moe out of the darkness as well.
I'm back into full Moe is behind everything mode.
But, The Torturer tried to create a blind spot to the gods........in a Mansion.....it didn't work.
Kellhus and Moe met outside the view of the eyes of the gods?
The whole point of the mansions seems to be to hide from the gods.
Good point. Perhaps that is part of TTT though, hiding it from the gods as well?
Also the place where Inri ascended to heaven. If one believes the entry in the glossary.
Well the whole series could be called the TTT, the series starts with Moe enacting it, although as he said he was quite unprepared when the first of the thought came to him. PoN is everyone walking the TTT as is TAE.
The TTT came to Moe out of the darkness as well.
I'm back into full Moe is behind everything mode.
But, The Torturer tried to create a blind spot to the gods........in a Mansion.....it didn't work.
Cause they took Sorweel there. Also Sorweel himself notes in the depths he went to a place the goddess couldn't see.
They were bid to dig into mountains in their earliest stories. The Torturer is just continuing this practice not initiating it.
And, yes, I'm saying there is no difference between a rat terrier a robot in terms of thinking capacity. There's research into making organic computers, and research into making computers sentient. It goes both ways. The differences are superficial. Its all just atoms and electricity.
We're working from pretty different fundamental frames of mind. I don't think there will be much reconciliation here. But, if there is to be, we should focus on a smaller scope lol.
At that point though, every living thing is a robot, so what is the point of distinction?
All the humans, all the Inchoroi and all the Nonmen are, so all the Sranc, Bashrags and Skin-Spies are, as are all the animals, every one of these are robots, exacting some biological code.
Yes. The point is that there is not a distinction.
Oh, looks like FB followed that up for me already ;).
H, you seem to dislike that idea - the lack of difference. What makes it important? I think imposing a difference allows people to justify actions to things, animals, other people. Slavery/holocost/genocide are super examples. The industrial meat industry another (mmmm The Meat. I still eat it) . When things are different, its super easy to justify action. So, I think remove the distinction between 'us' and 'them' is a good thing. Maybe not?
We have Moe picking the depths of a non-man mansion which is also named as a site where people can ascend to heaven. We know non-men mansions were built originally to hide from the gods. We know the Dunyain are damned.
We have Kellhus assertion that Moe is weak in the water. however the setting in which we meet him has overwhelming amounts of actual water, in fact it might be a water slide park with bronze slides.
Kellhus doesn't walk straight to his father he wanders down some halls "heeding a voice from nowhere" yet the torch his father left for him at the entrance sputters dead just far enough along his trail/trial for him to see the braziers that Moe set out for him. If Kellhus had spent a bit longer wandering he might have missed the lights till later.
Kellhus is described as inadvertently kicking a skull when he is describing his fathers journey. The author put it there for a reason.
Moe's eye sockets seem to weep still.
The Cish Kellhus beheads in TWP during the siege of Carkasand looks just like Kellhus and Moe, so much so, Kellhus thinks it's his dad till he gets face to face with him.
Just listing some of the things that make me go "hmmmmm i know jackshit but maybe..."
"heeding a voice from nowhere" sounds like The Legion Within to me. Maybe an indication that Kellhus is broken, ie no longer in control of the Darkness that comes before? It also, given the no-god dreams, could be more of whatever that is.
Skull foreshadowing Moes death I like. Certainly isn't foreshadowing Kellhus' death. In any case I try to not get sucked too far into Chekhov's Armory (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ChekhovsArmoury).
With the lights, yes it was a close call, but if your holding a torch, you can't see much beyond it. He'd have to be real close to a smoldering brazier whilst holding a lit torch before he could actually see it. Up until that point, it would always seem like the torch went out just before he came upon another light source.
With the lights, yes it was a close call, but if your holding a torch, you can't see much beyond it. He'd have to be real close to a smoldering brazier whilst holding a lit torch before he could actually see it. Up until that point, it would always seem like the torch went out just before he came upon another light source.
The problem with this interpretation is the light is described as "the faintest of glimmers".
With the lights, yes it was a close call, but if your holding a torch, you can't see much beyond it. He'd have to be real close to a smoldering brazier whilst holding a lit torch before he could actually see it. Up until that point, it would always seem like the torch went out just before he came upon another light source.
The problem with this interpretation is the light is described as "the faintest of glimmers".
However i believe that the Thousand fold thought is just a chronology of the cause and effect that pushes the setting to some already determined conclusion.
I think TTT is just an extension of the probability trance. Just based on before/after. Though, I don't think the outcome of TTT is set. There's room for divergence still, but it takes a titanic effort - like say the usurpation of an entire world...
Put pretty sure thats beyond the scope of this topic.
An implacable fury swelled through Sorweel’s limbs, an urge to throttle— to strike! But it was cracked for the absence of foes, broken into aimless urgency. “They seek …” he said, using calm words to force calm into his demeanour. “They seek to save themselves from … from damnation?”“You know this as well,” Oinaral said. “You only balk because of its implication …”“Implication? What implication?” He could scream, such was the absurdity of it all. “Because it means the Anasûrimbor is An implacable fury swelled through Sorweel’s limbs, an urge to throttle— to strike! But it was cracked for the absence of foes, broken into aimless urgency. “They seek …” he said, using calm words to force calm into his demeanour. “They seek to save themselves from … from damnation?”“You know this as well,” Oinaral said. “You only balk because of its implication …”“Implication? What implication?” He could scream, such was the absurdity of it all. “Because it means the Anasûrimbor is.almost certainly your Saviour.” And there it was. The Amiolas need not blot his sense of breathing. The Mother-of-Birth had doomed him to assassinate a Living Prophet, the true Saviour.
Here is the bit i'm talking about
page 244-245 hardback
"Everyone knows of the great ruiner," Sorweel retorted. "the question is how you could you know he returns? Or that the Anusrimbor alone can forestall him?"
"It has been prophe-"
"I have been prophecied"
Here is the bit i'm talking about
page 244-245 hardback
"Everyone knows of the great ruiner," Sorweel retorted. "the question is how you could you know he returns? Or that the Anusrimbor alone can forestall him?"
"It has been prophe-"
"I have been prophecied"
Also Moe's description of how the thought came to him mirrors the quote at the start of the series about a thought coming when it wants not when "i" want.That's something from Kant or some other philosopher dude. I won't pretend to understand it, but I will say that I don't think it applies to the books. So, no, I don't believe it implies that.
So implies some sort of agency in the thought, and maybe perhaps the thousand fold thought.
I think it is predetermined but there is a way to by-pass that, and things like seswatha heart are attempts to do it.You think Seswatha grasped the thousandfold thought, mused on it like a dunyain, and was attempting to circumvent it? That seems like a huge stretch to me.
We have 3 prophecies (which could be attempts as well)The Celemomian Prophecy has always been 2 parts. Part 1 has been fulfilled - that an anasurimbor will return at the end of the world. Confirmed with Akka's dreams, though the context changed slightly, so now we know that Kellhus IS the end of the world, according to the dream.
1. Celemonas one. Which has been given further context by Akka's dreams, although we now know they have been deceiving him... arghh can't work anything out.
2. one Aurang talks about in WLW. Possibly involving mimara.
3. One Sorweel hears about in Ishterbenith
The three most important characters ( for me ) all have some sort of mysterious voice guiding them.
Kellhus. Been hearing shit since the end of TWP. Both Celemonas and nonman prophecy name him in some capacity
Akka. Dreams leading him across Earwa
Mimara. sees full histories and current levels of damnation. The eye informs her stances.
The three most important characters ( for me ) all have some sort of mysterious voice guiding them.
Kellhus. Been hearing shit since the end of TWP. Both Celemonas and nonman prophecy name him in some capacity
Akka. Dreams leading him across Earwa
Mimara. sees full histories and current levels of damnation. The eye informs her stances.
Something's going on there, yeah.
Also Moe's description of how the thought came to him mirrors the quote at the start of the series about a thought coming when it wants not when "i" want.That's something from Kant or some other philosopher dude. I won't pretend to understand it, but I will say that I don't think it applies to the books. So, no, I don't believe it implies that.
So implies some sort of agency in the thought, and maybe perhaps the thousand fold thought.I think it is predetermined but there is a way to by-pass that, and things like seswatha heart are attempts to do it.You think Seswatha grasped the thousandfold thought, mused on it like a dunyain, and was attempting to circumvent it? That seems like a huge stretch to me.We have 3 prophecies (which could be attempts as well)The Celemomian Prophecy has always been 2 parts. Part 1 has been fulfilled - that an anasurimbor will return at the end of the world. Confirmed with Akka's dreams, though the context changed slightly, so now we know that Kellhus IS the end of the world, according to the dream.
1. Celemonas one. Which has been given further context by Akka's dreams, although we now know they have been deceiving him... arghh can't work anything out.
2. one Aurang talks about in WLW. Possibly involving mimara.
3. One Sorweel hears about in Ishterbenith
Part 2, that the world ends with Seswatha, is now just more confusing. How could Kellhus be the end of the world and also Seswatha. Doesn't make any sense, but thats what we have. I've taken this to mean, for years, that when Seswatha dies, the world ends, and since we've got some weird stuff going on with the heart, then that point is either when the heart is destroied, or when all the Mandati die.
Aurang's prophecy we have so little information about its hard to say anything about it. Mimara/TJE/Something is involved in a prophecy which may or may not be false.
Don't really remember the context of the Sorweel thing you mentioned, even after the quotes provided.The three most important characters ( for me ) all have some sort of mysterious voice guiding them.
Kellhus. Been hearing shit since the end of TWP. Both Celemonas and nonman prophecy name him in some capacity
Akka. Dreams leading him across Earwa
Mimara. sees full histories and current levels of damnation. The eye informs her stances.
Something's going on there, yeah.
Also Moe's description of how the thought came to him mirrors the quote at the start of the series about a thought coming when it wants not when "i" want.That's something from Kant or some other philosopher dude. I won't pretend to understand it, but I will say that I don't think it applies to the books. So, no, I don't believe it implies that.
So implies some sort of agency in the thought, and maybe perhaps the thousand fold thought.
You think Seswatha grasped the thousandfold thought, mused on it like a dunyain, and was attempting to circumvent it? That seems like a huge stretch to me.
"I shall never tire of underlining a concise little fact which these superstitious people are loath to admit-namely, A thought comes when it will, not when I will.”
― Friedrich Nietzsche
It's at the start of the book and describes the main theme of the book to a T, imo. I think in the false sun story this phenomenon is referred to as "Onkis".
As Moe says "i was quite unprepared when the first of the thought came to me"
I went and got the full quote longer to add context
"“When did you realize you didn’t possess the strength,” Kellhus asked, “that more was needed to avert the No-God’s second coming?”
“From the very first I recognized that it was probable,” Moënghus said. “But I spent years assessing the possibilities, gathering knowledge. When the first of the Thought came to me, I was quite unprepared."
I think combing TTT and Kellhus' internal mystery voice into one thing is folly.
TTT is not an entity itself, its a thought. Multiple people have grasped it, even the half Dunyain. I believe Maithanet, inrilatas, and kelmomas all grasped it. There might even be hints in the Survivor sections of some grasping there, but I might be making that bit up.
"Was it her? Did she tell you about the Thousandfold Thought?"
"And you see me," the naked adolescent pressed, "the fact that I have been caged rather than drowned, as the most glaring example of your elder brother's folly."
[...]
"I fear that you might be..." the Shriah said. "I admit as much. But if you can see this, Inrilatas, then your father has seen it also—and far more completely. If he sees no sedition in my fearing, why should you?"
Granted, the explanation that the Thought just talks to whoever it want explains this as well, but it seems that there would be more than just a bunch of crazy dunyain half-breeds and their parents that this sentient Thought thing would reach out too.. No, I think the common denominator is the probability trance, Occam's razor this and its just an extension of that. (Occam would not have done well with musing about these books though :P )
"I shall never tire of underlining a concise little fact which these superstitious people are loath to admit-namely, A thought comes when it will, not when I will.”
― Friedrich Nietzsche
It's at the start of the book and describes the main theme of the book to a T, imo. I think in the false sun story this phenomenon is referred to as "Onkis".
As Moe says "i was quite unprepared when the first of the thought came to me"
I went and got the full quote longer to add context
"“When did you realize you didn’t possess the strength,” Kellhus asked, “that more was needed to avert the No-God’s second coming?”
“From the very first I recognized that it was probable,” Moënghus said. “But I spent years assessing the possibilities, gathering knowledge. When the first of the Thought came to me, I was quite unprepared."
Indeed, I think that is a big clue to the Thought being external to Moe, not a creation of his.
It could also explain why Moe "had" to die, since the Thought was always from a place beyond him, it needn't always include him. In other words, he is simply another cog in the machine, not the engine (although he played a role of that for a time).
Kellhus muses something about how Moe didn't realise the thought would outgrow it's body of incubation or something like that.
I think combining TTT and Kellhus' internal mystery voice into one thing is folly.
TTT is not an entity itself, its a thought. Multiple people have grasped it, even the half Dunyain. I believe Maithanet, inrilatas, and kelmomas all grasped it. There might even be hints in the Survivor sections of some grasping there, but I might be making that bit up.
Granted, the explanation that the Thought just talks to whoever it want explains this as well, but it seems that there would be more than just a bunch of crazy dunyain half-breeds and their parents that this sentient Thought thing would reach out too.. No, I think the common denominator is the probability trance, Occam's razor this and its just an extension of that. (Occam would not have done well with musing about these books though :P )
Kellhus muses something about how Moe didn't realise the thought would outgrow it's body of incubation or something like that.
Well, what if The Thousandfold Thought is a Probability Trace but one that feeds back to itself? That is, it is recursive and creates a feedback loop.
So it almost becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy machine. In this way, Wilshire and I can both be right.
I don't think all the Voices are the same. Kelmommas surely isn't hearing the Voice The Kellhus does. Its why I think that the Voice Kellhus hears (himself in the Outside, half ape/half Monk) is stearing the TTT. Kelmommas no would venture to say is hearing his dead brother sammy, who knows nothing of TTT. I don't subsribe to the theory that all Voices being heard are one and the same.
I don't think all the Voices are the same. Kelmommas surely isn't hearing the Voice The Kellhus does. Its why I think that the Voice Kellhus hears (himself in the Outside, half ape/half Monk) is stearing the TTT. Kelmommas no would venture to say is hearing his dead brother sammy, who knows nothing of TTT. I don't subsribe to the theory that all Voices being heard are one and the same.
Indeed, I hadn't considered otherwise, but never thought to note it. From that Bakker interview he did where he compared his role and a DM to that of a "dark god" I went from doubtful on the Ajolki influence to well convinced it is real and what is guiding Kel.
Indeed, I hadn't considered otherwise, but never thought to note it. From that Bakker interview he did where he compared his role and a DM to that of a "dark god" I went from doubtful on the Ajolki influence to well convinced it is real and what is guiding Kel.
Now I like where this is headed.
If Ajokli is indeed the Voice for Kelmomas (and I fully agree there are many "voices" at play which are distinct from each other), then who exactly is Ajokli?
And even then, we know from RSB's Westeros.org Q&A that "Ajokli is not the one who's invisible".
How to reconcile all of this...
Now I like where this is headed.
If Ajokli is indeed the Voice for Kelmomas (and I fully agree there are many "voices" at play which are distinct from each other), then who exactly is Ajokli?
And even then, we know from RSB's Westeros.org Q&A that "Ajokli is not the one who's invisible".
How to reconcile all of this...
I posted in "The Gods" thread how it seems Ajokli is described as a companion of the Gods. I think Ajokli might be someone we know, someone that figured out a way to "ascend" you might say. Who that is, I don't know.
As to RSB's statement at Westeros, I think he was just alluding to the No-God or maybe even Kelmommas....
I never really considered Ajolki as anything else besides a god like Yatwer. I guess it is possible, but Ajolki has presumably existed since all the other 100. Perhaps we can consider the backward time effect here, but then why not consider it for all the other gods too?
Seems like a Pandora's Box...
I never really considered Ajolki as anything else besides a god like Yatwer. I guess it is possible, but Ajolki has presumably existed since all the other 100. Perhaps we can consider the backward time effect here, but then why not consider it for all the other gods too?
Seems like a Pandora's Box...
Me either, but it says it right there in the appendix. So, me thinks it's thrown in there for a reason.
@themerchant, see I always felt in that scene that Kellhus was just as surprised as the WLW. Without Kel screaming "mommy" Kellhus dies. Why the charade? Why would Kellhus control Kelmommas to say "mommy" so he can take a step and keep on living?
It might be that Kellhus used Kelmomas to entice Ajokli, basically developed his own God-entangled agent. So while Ajokli is the Voice, it's Kellhus who orchestrated the whole thing as a foil against the machinations of the 100.
It might be that Kellhus used Kelmomas to entice Ajokli, basically developed his own God-entangled agent. So while Ajokli is the Voice, it's Kellhus who orchestrated the whole thing as a foil against the machinations of the 100.
A good point, perhaps that is a key to the full Thousandfold Thought, assessing and planning for the involvement of the gods?
Maybe. Seems like either TTT or Kellhus' own discoveries would indicate that at some point, the Gods would act against an attempt to rewrite the World's metaphysics.
Right. I don't think that Kellhus planned the whole thing out. More that he set up Kel to be a sleeper agent. Now that I think about it, I wonder if Kellhus foresaw the Gods attacking the Empire directly and that Kel is his ace-in-the-hole (or "shaved knuckle", as Quick Ben would put it). Kellhus might have even Conditioned Kelmomas' obsession with Esme to make him the perfect protector.
+1 to "as usual probably wrong" :-)
Right. I don't think that Kellhus planned the whole thing out. More that he set up Kel to be a sleeper agent. Now that I think about it, I wonder if Kellhus foresaw the Gods attacking the Empire directly and that Kel is his ace-in-the-hole (or "shaved knuckle", as Quick Ben would put it). Kellhus might have even Conditioned Kelmomas' obsession with Esme to make him the perfect protector.
+1 to "as usual probably wrong" :-)
You guys could very well be right. Kellhus certainly has his hand on everything else. My question is, why even introduce all the hubbbub about Ajokli?
Right. I don't think that Kellhus planned the whole thing out. More that he set up Kel to be a sleeper agent. Now that I think about it, I wonder if Kellhus foresaw the Gods attacking the Empire directly and that Kel is his ace-in-the-hole (or "shaved knuckle", as Quick Ben would put it). Kellhus might have even Conditioned Kelmomas' obsession with Esme to make him the perfect protector.
+1 to "as usual probably wrong" :-)
You guys could very well be right. Kellhus certainly has his hand on everything else. My question is, why even introduce all the hubbbub about Ajokli?
It's a huge stretch. But I think it all comes down to the fact that Ajokli's influences aren't perceived by the other Gods. So by entangling Ajokli with Kelmomas, he creates an agent who's actions lie outside the Gods' purview.
It may well be another agency and that would definitely be cool.
The other thing that makes me think it might be Kellhus is his comment to Proyas about having certain resources in the ground in Momemn. But I've gone horribly off topic. ;-)
Yet, I think Locke might be right, that in the end there will be some detail that Kellhus overlooks that could be his undoing. As with Yatwer, the infinite can be surprised......
Yet, I think Locke might be right, that in the end there will be some detail that Kellhus overlooks that could be his undoing. As with Yatwer, the infinite can be surprised......
Its a central theme. I posted this in the quorum earlier but again:
Every major power in the book that has thought itself infallible has, so far, been toppled by something that completely blindsided them. Its a reoccurring theme, that no matter how powerful and omniscient someone/thing is, there is always something outside of their grasp.
The notable exception to this is Kellhus, though we might argue that the very last scene in TGO is confirmation that Kellhus isn't so omniscient.
Think about it. Cnaiur, Conphas, Xerius, Moenghus Sr., Maithanet, Yatwer/WLW, Titirga... Each, at the very pinnacle of their power, is brought down by something almost entirely unknown to them, usually to their ultimate demise.
Six-sigma events get us all in the end.lol. Yes. Those fringe cases. Wonder if six-sigma is a phrase most people would get though? Its not something I'd think came up much in your industry either :P , shows what I know.
The thumb and forefinger on each of the hands are joined, forming a zero. The rest of the fingers are extended. The hands are placed palms-up on the thighs or knees while sitting in vajrasana. This mudrā supposedly activates the diaphragm, making for deep "stomach-breathing" as the diaphragm pushes out the internal organs when it descends towards the pelvis on inhalation. Slow breathing in a 5-2-4-2 mentally counted rhythm (counting to 5 during the exhalation, to 2 while holding the breath, and to 4 on the inhalation) causes prana flow in the pelvis and in the legs.
Chin means consciousness in Sanskrit, and the purpose of this mudra is to remind the practitioner of the goal of yoga, the union of the individual soul with the supreme soul. Mudra means seal, and it is essentially an energetic and spiritual gesture that controls the flow of energy within the body. The fingers each have representations:
Thumb: Supreme Soul
Pointer: Individual Soul
Middle: Ego
Ring: Illusion
Pinky: Karma
Ego, illusion and karma are the 3 impurities that the yogi is trying to remove from his life in order to unite their Individual Soul with the Supreme Soul and experience that divine, blissful state of union they strive for. Doing chin mudra is a physical representation and reminder of this goal and serves to refocus and re-energize the practitioner.
Following onto that, when Kellhus is trying to see his father through the water all he can see is "two fingers and thumb" and the thumbnail gleamed.
Nah, just means he was in a meditative posture.
If my memory serves, the gleaming comes from light refracting in the water. There was something about water coming out of Moe's eyes in that scene.
Edit: I can't look it up. I lent my copy of TTT to a friend.
“Nations live as Men act,” Moënghus said, his voice refracted through the ambient rush of waters. “Men act as they believe. And Men believe as they are conditioned. Since they are blind to their conditioning, they do not doubt their intuitions …”
Kellhus nodded in wary assent. “They believe absolutely,” he said.
All Kellhus could see of his father were two fingers and a thumb lying slack upon a bare thigh. The thumbnail gleamed.
There was something about water coming out of Moe's eyes in that scene.
Edit: I can't look it up. I lent my copy of TTT to a friend.
I've read that scene more than any other, i haven't found why it would be gleaming, the light can't pierce the water. Kelhus himself stops trying to pierce the water to see through.
Moe sitting behind cataracts of great amounts of water so Kellhus can't see him. Weird since Moe is so weak in the Water.
Pink imprints on the cloth.This is frustrating. I'm going to chaulk it up to minor continuity/timeline issues. Bakker has some issues with time throughout, especially in TGO. There's no reason for there to be blood on the cloth, however I think the idea Bakker had was to show Moe proving to Kellhus he blinded himself. Granted, it should have been so long ago that unless the wounds are stigmata, they should be healed.
The incongruity with grasping the TTT as he had already been told he would grasp it.
A different question entirely. It is in fact very odd that this particular Cish looked like Moenghus. Was it wearing a blindfold? How could he even tell. No answers here on that one though.
This goes even weirder as the person who told him looks just like Kellhus and Moe (the Cish that zig-zagged to him),
kicking the skull ,Foreshadowing almost certainly, but most likely foreshadowing either 'danger ahead' (lol jokes) and/or the death that occurs almost immediately afterward - ie Moenghus.
kellhus following a voice from nowhere to look about the place.Internal monologue
Moe experimenting with Skinspies.Kellhus was already doing this on the road. Why no Moe? Seems normal.
The whole meeting taking place at where Inri sejenus ascended.Yes, an interesting bit.
Some answers from Moe "imperceptive slower" than others.Lines up with dipping into the probablitliy trance. Standard dunyain stuff. Though makes me chuckle, if its imperceptible, then he shouldnt be noticing it.
Plus a few other things i've forgotten as this is from memory. I think this scene might have forshadowing if any scene is going to have it.
There's also a bit about it looking like he's crying , IIRC. Its just water running down his face from the waterfall.There was something about water coming out of Moe's eyes in that scene.
Edit: I can't look it up. I lent my copy of TTT to a friend.
Not Moe's eyes. He walks through the water coming from two eyes above him as he says "this is where the probability trance failed me"
I'm almost entirely contrarian in nature, its compulsive. Too much agreeing makes my head spin, so you'll see me in turn support or argue against just about any theory around (except that Moe fucked up and died, that was a steadfast decision of mine from the start).
Its honestly hard for me to say which way I really feel, but also irrelevant. All the good discussions arise from disagreement, so its the disagreement itself, rather than argument, that I find enjoyable:) . To a point, of course, as its easy to get carried away doing that and then everything just breaks down entirely.
A knife's edge.
Practical? Yes. "It is what it is", not so much. I'll take the compliment :D . Your description, in turn, reminds me of my own father, who I hold in the greatest esteem.
When Moenghus blinded himself, he sheared away his spirit, his identity -- the things which made him different from Kellhus -- thereby becoming a kind of reflecting pool for his son. This is why the conversation between two is so hotly debated and interpretive.
Kellhus is quite literally having a conversation with himself. He went down into the Nonman Mansion to do precisely what Nonmen do -- reflect upon himself.
When Moenghus blinded himself, he sheared away his spirit, his identity -- the things which made him different from Kellhus -- thereby becoming a kind of reflecting pool for his son. This is why the conversation between two is so hotly debated and interpretive.
Kellhus is quite literally having a conversation with himself. He went down into the Nonman Mansion to do precisely what Nonmen do -- reflect upon himself.
Back to the OP.
This is an interesting point, given the revelations of TGO regarding Kellhus being not so much a person but a Place and/or a slave to TTT. Seems that Kellhus did to himself what you described Moe as. Maybe they both ended up at about the same place after 30 years of being in the Three Seas.
The internet removes age/appearance as a basis for making decisions/conclusions, which significantly changes perception. Totally changes how one perceives the words written. I often find myself surprised when I find out everyone isn't exactly the same age as me... But that's enough circlejerking lol.
CRACKIN' POTS: (This post actually started in the "Meppa's Role" thread, but it ended up becoming huge and sort of a different topic, so I made a new thread for it -- I may get around to talking about how the hell I think Meppa actually fits into this...some day).
Moenghus was and still is, in some capacity, actually helping Kellhus achieve his "destiny"...whatever that may be, as glimpsed by Moenghus and seemingly grasped by Kellhus. After all, practically the whole of PoN is a story of Kellhus gradually realizing that the World has been conditioned by his father, and while Kellhus is certainly aware of this, he nonetheless behaves as if he has, well, free will for lack of a better word (this arguably becomes blurry after the Umiaki Miracle).
Really, though, I think a great deal of the confusion comes from a misunderstanding of what the Psukhe is, what the Water is, what the intended meaning of Passion is, and most of all what a soul is. Near the beginning of TGO, when Achamian has the dream of Shauriatas (which we've had access to from the original first excerpt, back in 2013) he mentions the complexity of souls for a good reason:Quote“But souls are exceedingly complicated,” he continued. “Far more so than the crude sorceries used to trap them. The intricacies of identity are always sheared away. Memory. Faculty. Character. These are cast into the pit... Only the most base urges survive in proxies.”
There's an undeniable influence of Gnostic Christian myth & theology in the series (particularly when it comes to a lot of the subtleties in Earwa's metaphysics), and one glance at a Gnostic "diagram of a soul/spirit" should give an idea that complexity:
(http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/imagenes_mistic/gnosismontalk_02.jpg)
I'm not going to even try puzzling all that out with exact metaphysical analogues from TSA, in part simply because I'm not inclined to believe the metaphysics are fully analogous, but it is a jumping point of sorts.
Getting more to the point, I think a clarification of a few central topics may elucidate some facets of this discussion (or what may be clarifications in my own opinion, anyhow).
The Distinction between Soul & Spirit
This is more or less straight from Gnostic thought, but it appears in plenty of other belief systems in various forms. In common parlance, these words often used interchangeably, but with the metaphysics of Earwa, I think the defining the two notions is key to understanding, well, all sorts of shit in the series.
Basically, the Soul is akin to an exotic form of matter (or energy) which acts as the substrate for the Spirit. What Achamian describes as "the intricacies of identity" -- memory, faculty, character -- are in fact the Spirit of an individual. The things that make you, me, and Napoleon different people.
Souls, on the other hand, are not only identical but are actually the same thing from the same source (again, not unlike the way that all of our own brains are ultimately just made of atoms that once came from stars, etc.). It's useful to think of souls in the singular. Consciousness is encoded in the substrate of matter. Spirits are written on the substrate of Soul.
The Water is Soul, the primordial "sea" from which all Soul originated and, eventually, returned to.
Better yet, just think about the Force from Star Wars. The majority of people that die in Star Wars just...die, like regular humans. But in the case of "great sorcerors" like Obi-Wan, Yoda, Anakin, they are able to retain some remnant of their Spirit (identity) even after death, because reasons.
(Also, don't get too attached to the exact phrasing I'm using here because I'm pretty sure things are, as always, a bit more complicated. I'm just going for the main jist of my point here).
So, given all of the above, we can reassess the nature of the Psukhe, a school of sorcery that relies solely on passion. For the sake of expediency, and I will now rattle off a list of my current interpretations of what's going on in a way that may sound like it's totally supported by textual evidence, or as if I think I actually know precisely what's going on. The former is debatable, and the latter is hilariously untrue.
-The Cishaurim, through the art of the Pskuhe and ritualistic blinding, work to strip themselves of a "Self" (identity, spirit) and open their Third Eye (the Heart, seat of the Soul), a conduit to the primordial sea of Souls, called the Water.
-Because the Cishaurim have no Self/Spirit/Identity (or at least a very stunted one), they are also invisible to the gods -- also, by weaponizing pure Soul for their sorcery, it leaves no Mark on World.
-In addition (or alternatively), The God(s?) are blind to the Cishaurim, because by removing their eyes (Windows to the Soul), they've broken the Circuit of Watcher and Watched. It should also be noted that at least one of the reasons the Cishaurim use snakes as their symbiotic sensory apparatus is because snakes traditionally have very poor version, instead relying on taste/scent and thermal detection. This supports the relevance of the Circuit of Watcher and Watched -- the implication is that snakes are chosen deliberately because they do not rely on optical senses. After all, if you're going to use an animal surrogate for lost vision, why wouldn't you use something that's actually better at seeing? Like birds for example...
-The text is deliberately misguiding about the Psukhe and true the extent of the Cishaurim's abilities (or any one else who can tap into the Water for that matter -- I don't believe it's exclusive to the Cish). What the Psukhe lacks in raw power it makes up for in subtly, illusion, scrying, dreamwalking, etc. Because of the employment of a traditional, western concept of the Male Gaze through which the series is (mostly) told, and from the patriarchal society of the Three Seas, the Psukhe is disregarded as inferior, and Cishaurim as abominations so "Other" that barely anyone even tries to understand them. This is, of course, just about the worst possible way to approach the Cish, an institution that's seemingly founded on techniques of subterfuge, misinformation, and working as invisibly as possible. Like a spy organization...
- Contrary to first impressions, the Cishaurim are actually an ideal fit for a Dunyain. The text implies that because of the Dunyain’s “stunted emotions”, the Psukhe was a poor choice for Moenghus. But this is misguided, since as we know, the “passion” that drives the Psukhe is actually the most base parts of the Soul -- which are not so much stunted by the Dunyain as mastered by them.
Conclusion
The climactic confrontation between Kellhus and Moenghus in TTT can be thought of as akin to the scene in The Empire Strikes Back, when Luke is training on Dagobah and ventures down into the cavern. At first, he seems to find Vader down there, confronts him, and defeats him, only for it to be revealed that it was himself all along.
It’s been theorized many times that what makes Kellhus special is that he doesn’t just read faces -- he reads souls. This is why the people that contend with him are broken/enlightened based entirely on truths about themselves.
When Moenghus blinded himself, he sheared away his spirit, his identity -- the things which made him different from Kellhus -- thereby becoming a kind of reflecting pool for his son. This is why the conversation between two is so hotly debated and interpretive.
Kellhus is quite literally having a conversation with himself. He went down into the Nonman Mansion to do precisely what Nonmen do -- reflect upon himself.
And because Moenghus had made a mirror of himself for Kellhus, it allowed Kellhus the opportunity to glimpse the Darkness that Comes Before him, which is very well symbolized when Cnaiur and Serwe approach from behind moments before he uses the Cant of Transposition.
Bonus: The Scylvendi’s swazond are, in fact, an example of what Achamian calls “the crude sorceries used to trap” souls. This is part of what makes Cnaiur so powerful and age-defying. By capturing the raw soul of his victims, he actually makes his own soul stronger.