The Second Apocalypse

Earwa => The Aspect-Emperor => The Unholy Consult => Topic started by: Ciogli on July 28, 2017, 11:46:59 pm

Title: (TUC Spoilers) Thoughts on TUC
Post by: Ciogli on July 28, 2017, 11:46:59 pm
I read the book last week and since then I have digesting my thoughts on the book, at first just like with The Great Ordeal I did not know how I felt about the book. The density of all that is learned must be mulled over rather than simply spewing random words about my feelings. I have been struck by the seemingly mixed reaction to the book, I have thinking about why that is. For me it seems that people who have not liked the book have talked like this book was supposed to end things rather than being the cliffhanger ending that the author intended it to be. People have been saying things like why have they been reading the series all these years for this ending,  that it has all been a waste of their time. Like they were not reading because they liked the series but because they have invested so much time and now they want some kind of payoff for their efforts. RSB has said for years that The Unholy Consult is a sort of Gordian knot that would cinch all of Earwa’s plot threads into one thing.  The more that I have thought about the book the more that I have liked it, the more that I am starting to love it in fact and while The White Luck Warrior is my favorite this is a great book. For want of a better metaphor this book and the Aspect-Emperor series in general is the Empire strikes back part of the Second Apocalypse, a trilogy of trilogies. The first part in the Prince of Nothing the good guys prevail initially like Luke destroying the Death Star, but in the second part the bad guys up and deal a mighty blow to the good guys, Luke is maimed and is shattered by the revelation of Darth Vader as his father, Han Solo is captured and sent off, Lando betrays his friends. It is easily the darkest of those movies and this series is simply the second act where the bad guys appear to be triumphant over their enemies. If this was not the simply the end of the second act it would change the series but the ending is still to come.

One complaint I have seen is that the Mimara storyline and the Judging Eye have not meant anything to the story since she did nothing to Kellhuss or gaze on him with it. But I think that this is the wrong way to look at her story, she like everyone else thought the whole world hung upon Kellhuss and now that crutch has been kicked away. As I said this series is interconnected and her story is greater than simply her step father and his plans. In Mimara we saw the ascension of the first true prophet in an at least an age, maybe more if Fane or Sejenus  were not in fact prophets. She travels with the Eye of God within her and she will be pivotal in the next series. She also appears to have given birth to some kind of chosen one or savior since when she looked upon him the Eye went blind, indeed it may be the God of God’s has snuck into this world similar to Ajokli. In fact Akka mentions it in the Great Ordeal that he is in fact walking with the God of God’s when he is walking with her.

Now Esmenet’s story was always the most boring storyline in the Aspect Emperor series, the whole New Empire plot seemed to have no impact upon the wider world. But now it seems crucial to what is going to happen in the overall story arc. It now seems that little old Esmenet is just as important if not even more so than Kellhuss. It was she who gave birth to the newest prophet who will see the world in the time of the resurrected No-God and the grandchild who may be its ultimate savior. She also gave birth to the No-God itself, without her none of these greater events would seem to have happened. It was she who kept Akka in Sumna when he first encountered the Consult, that forced him to flee that place when he was told to follow the holy war by the Mandate, which in turn led him to Proyas and thence Kellhuss and Cnaiur. It was her love and then the snatching away of that love which forced Akka into exile and then her love which prevented his execution, and her stories about him which led Mimara to him thence her pregnancy and her journey to prophethood. And now the No-God itself is her youngest child who is half Dunyain and whose only true love is her, she freed him which led to his eventually becoming the No-God. Maybe being half Dunyain will make it smarter than last time but if that is true than maybe its love for Esmenet might still also come through.

The Moenghus storyline is also not so much about the Aspect-Emperor series but in fact the series that follows, the ultimate act of the Second Apocalypse series. Now you have a man who is in the son of both Kellhuss the aspect emperor and Cnauir the most violent of all men, born of one but raised by the other, finally his love for his Dunyain family is broken but he is still mostly sane and his love for humanity and for his father’s goals of stopping the second apocalypse are still there. Cnauir melded all of the Scylvendi into one during the twenty years he ruled the steppe, it would take a generation for the tribes to mature a generation of fighters and he stamped out all opposition who would challenge his rule and in fact the Scylvendi seem to have come to think of him as a sort of holy figure, a sort of dark inversion of Kellhuss himself. Now Moenghus controls and their terror of his father will see him through at first, but he is a mighty warrior in his own right already and he only need to be cunning and his position will become secure. He is now in control of the most vicious and yet committed army left in the armies of humans, the Scyvendi have been melded into a mighty spear and now they will fight for humanity this time. Moenghus is a descendant  the greatest Scylvendi heroe’s from Uthgai to Cnauir, and he also loves Esmenet as his mother so there will be cooperation with whoever is left in the Kellian Empire.

The journey of Mimara and Akka also had other fruits that have yet to ripen on the vine, the discovery of the descendants of Kellhuss in Ishual will have a wide ranging impact on the story. If the goal of the Dunyain is to breed each generation to the limit of their abilities so with each generation they get closer to the Absolute then it would stand to reason that since Kellhuss was a prodigy among the brethren and Koringhus astounded his teachers and the consensus seems that he was nearest the Absolute by the boy. Then it would stand to reason that the boy is even greater than both his father and his grandfather, the only reason that he was declared defective by the Assessor was because emotion had too much of his soul. Which for the Brethren meant that the Darkness had too much of him and he would be made into a captive in the Unmasking Room for others to study his darkness. Unlike all other Dunyain he was raised by a father who in his own stuttering way loved the boy, in fact he risked his life to bring into the labrynith and then risked more than all others to raise him, what they must have thought as the greatest scion of Ishual succumbed to such a strange darkness as paternal responsibility, but I guess they had their own problems at the time. Now he has been exposed to both the new prophet and a  gnostic sorcerer and he is running around the north, I believe the reason that he was not mentioned in this book was because that he is a seed for the final installments of this sees, a full Dunyain who has not banished all emotion and has even been raised by a father to the exclusion of most other Dunyain practices. It is not known if he is one of the Few, but either way I believe he will come to play a central role in the next series.

Another character that seemed to disappear from the last book was Meppa, the last Cishaurim who was not killed by Kellhuss. He was outside of the city when the quake hit and I doubt that he drowned on a flat plain where he was. Another seed for the next series to grow later on, he can feel the birth of the No-God  and can see the world in ways that no other human could during the last apocalypse. Now unmoored from the Fanim cause by the obvious truth of the second apocalypse, the world will need his ocean of water.

The Nonmen arc was another that was left hanging in the book, were the Quya who came to help the Ordeal the last of the race, or were they simply the fastest of the race who could get to the horns in time to help. Even now the wayward and the Intact will know of the No-God’s rebirth and so will unite to fight against it. The question now is how many of them still survive after the battle within the mountain. Only the Red Ghoul Sujara-Nin died in the attack and since they walk the sky they would presumably be able to outrun the horde if they went south instead of east like the Ordealmen.

Now Zeum like the Scyvendi has been a great unknown during this series, the largest single nation and the only one that has been left intact by the Great Ordeal and the Unification wars. Reading the appendices they were not involved in the last apocalypse, but now I think and Wert has said that RSB has said they will play a big role in the next series. An intact nation that has the arms and the sorcerous might to lead what is left of humanity in the dark days ahead. It will be cool to see the Mbimayu school and any other Zeumi school with their reliance on the Iswazi doctrine in the next series, they had only a single glimpse with Malowebi. Another great spear for humanity with which to fight the coming apocalypse.

Akka has no certain role in the next series, his age makes him likely to die, but he is like I think Cassandra the woman who in greek myth was cursed with always knowing the truth of what would happen but no one would ever believe her. His first appearance in the series is his dream of the disaster at Eleneot and the death of Celmommas, and now his last words in this series are the announcement of the resumption of the second apocalypse. Like with Proyas, in the last book there is the scene where Proyas is a boy who climbs a great tree only to lose his grip and the fall to earth is likely to kill only for Akka to show up and reach out his hand. But the stubborn boy will not take his hand out of spite and pride, saying that he would rather die than accept his help and risk his soul. And the boy drops before Akka’s eyes to the earth, breaking bones but not his head. Only later for him to scale the much greater and much more treacherous tree of Kellhuss and the Thousandfold Thought, Akka tried to save him from his clutches only for Proyas to cast him out in religious zeal thinking himself pious once again. This time he did not plummet ot earth but was cast into the Pit of Hell for all eternity and once again Akka could not save him. None of the Three Seas believed him when he tried to warn them of the apocalypse only for them to believe them when Kellhuss had grasped them, then when he spurned Kellhuss they again did not believe his claims. Even Mimara did not believe him until it was shown to her by the Eye of God within her. Now all the world will believe him when he says the second apocalypse has finally arrived.

I wonder about the identities of the Mutilated, I have always thought that the Anasurimbor’s were the sons of Finwe from the Silmarillion. Kellhuss was Feanor the greatest of all the elves in mind and body, who led the elves in their war against Morgoth and his northern fortress. He was killed by his own hubris and yet bid his children to continue the fight no matter the cost. I think that Maithanet is Fingolfin the second brother and the physically strongest of the brothers, it was said many times that Maitha was strong as a bull. I wondered if there was another brother left in Ishual who would be akin to Finarfin, the one brother who did not leave the Blessed Lands and that hope seemed to be dashed when we learned of the total destruction of Ishual and the Dunyain cult. Now I am not so sure, it would be great if one or mother of the Mutilated was in fact the brother of Kellhuss, and in fact they call him brother many times when they tried to subsume him. It may be what the Dunyain call each other in principle or it may be a clue, or even both. And it has been another contention of mine that Maitha probably has some children hidden in Sumna, it would make sense to have some insurance plans in place and since he was already half Dunyain the genetic bottleneck that his brother experienced would not be there for him, he had his own realm in Sumna as the Shriah and would have plenty of opportunity to prosecute his own plans, or maybe Kellhuss instructed him to spread his seed.

Now I do not think this was perfect, my two biggest complaints about this book were the crossing of the Field Appalling, and the destruction of the old Consult. It was a slog to get through the looming depravity that I could see coming when the Meat ran out, but it went on too long for my tastes. I was like the kid going to disneyland screaming to my parents are we there yet? The prospect of Golgotterath on the horizon and we are dealing with crazed sranc-men frustrated me, but he payoff was so much more the greater when they finally did battle. A naked Cet’ Ingira cursing the Ordealmen as fools was great, I just wish there was so much more of him. In this series I think we get a grand total of four scenes with him and two were at the end of this book. His encounter with Kellhuss outside Sobel, him torturing Seswatha on Dagliash in the beginning of TTT, and the gate scene then him in the Golden Room. That a my biggest disappointment with the book, the lack of the old Consult. They have been made out to be great for so long and then for them to be old destroyed in a flash. The Dunyain takeover was a great twist and the more I think on it will make the stakes o much higher with four Dunyain  being the four angels of the Apocalypse in the next series. But I wanted to see Shae at long last, hear him speak about his motives and why he did what he did for all of these years. See Mekeritrig go full Nonmen erratic sorcerer on his foes and show them why they feared they Consult for so long. It would have been great if he had survived and Shae had simply ceded leadership of the Consult to the Mutilated, the goal was not power but simply to save their eternal souls after all.

I think the biggest defency of this series was the lack of a clear enemy to fight until the very end of the story, the first series had them fighting the Fanim and prosecuting the Holy War, there was an enemy for them to fight. This one the enemy never appeared except in drips and drabs, the world was the enemy and that lacks a certain narrative tension. The tragedy at Irsulor and the battle of the ten yoke legion were highlights because it showed the cunning of the Consult in battle, where up to that point they were simply a dread rumor of. RSB has shown a distinct George Lucas streak to me, I mean that in the sense of creating and showing a cool character and then not doing much with them. The Tall who were introduced in the last book seemed to be a revelation, but we only see a glimpse of two of them and each for barely a moment. Oirunas  who it says he died in the appendix when he walked into the throne of Ish  with multiple chorea strapped to his armor and caused absolute pandemonium, and the Tall who guarded the gate and was killed quickly. Maitha who should have been a more central character to the kids of Kellhuss, from Serwa and Kayutas, to poor old Theli.

In short I think this series ended on a cliffhanger much like television shows, the heroes are at their darkest hours and all seems lost, Frodo is feared dead, Jon Snow has died. People are acting like this was the end of the series and they did not get what they wanted, since I finished the PON I knew there were two more series and the story continues for me. I am firmly along for the ride.

[EDIT Madness: Spaced paragraphs and renamed title.]
Title: Re: (TUS SPoilers) Thoughts on TUC
Post by: Redeagl on July 28, 2017, 11:55:52 pm
"The first part in the Prince of Nothing the good guys prevail initially like Luke destroying the Death Star" really?  the first trilogy's ending was a sad one for me. I hated Kellhus from the prologue, and Akka was my life's love....
Title: Re: (TUS SPoilers) Thoughts on TUC
Post by: CondYoke on July 29, 2017, 01:12:05 am
"Akka has no certain role in the next series, his age makes him likely to die"

There's a lot in your post cigoli, but I'm not so sure about this one.  If fucking Keith Richards is still alive after decades of heroin addiction, no reason to assume that snorting the ashes of an ancient, immortal hero won't continue to have interesting effects on Akka- as with all of Bakker's gifts to his characters, blessings along with curses. I expect Akka to have quite a bit of life left.  He is the hero.
Title: Re: (TUS SPoilers) Thoughts on TUC
Post by: TheCulminatingApe on July 29, 2017, 11:38:55 am
Now Esmenet’s story was always the most boring storyline in the Aspect Emperor series, the whole New Empire plot seemed to have no impact upon the wider world. But now it seems crucial to what is going to happen in the overall story arc. It now seems that little old Esmenet is just as important if not even more so than Kellhuss. It was she who gave birth to the newest prophet who will see the world in the time of the resurrected No-God and the grandchild who may be its ultimate savior. She also gave birth to the No-God itself, without her none of these greater events would seem to have happened. It was she who kept Akka in Sumna when he first encountered the Consult, that forced him to flee that place when he was told to follow the holy war by the Mandate, which in turn led him to Proyas and thence Kellhuss and Cnaiur. It was her love and then the snatching away of that love which forced Akka into exile and then her love which prevented his execution, and her stories about him which led Mimara to him thence her pregnancy and her journey to prophethood. And now the No-God itself is her youngest child who is half Dunyain and whose only true love is her, she freed him which led to his eventually becoming the No-God. Maybe being half Dunyain will make it smarter than last time but if that is true than maybe its love for Esmenet might still also come through.

That's a pretty good call on Esmenet being as if not more important than Kellhus.  I also see her as important because she's the only complete mundane character - a sort of everywoman (or everyperson). She has no magical ability, she's not a great warrior, or part of the nobility.  She's someone from very humble origins

Now you have a man who is in the son of both Kellhuss the aspect emperor and Cnauir the most violent of all men, born of one but raised by the other

he also loves Esmenet as his mother so there will be cooperation with whoever is left in the Kellian Empire.
Another good call re the actual and adoptive parentage.  I'm not there'll be much co-operation with the Empire though.  I reckon the Empire is dead and buried as a political body.

Then it would stand to reason that the boy is even greater than both his father and his grandfather, the only reason that he was declared defective by the Assessor was because emotion had too much of his soul.

Another character that seemed to disappear from the last book was Meppa, the last Cishaurim who was not killed by Kellhuss. He was outside of the city when the quake hit and I doubt that he drowned on a flat plain where he was. Another seed for the next series to grow later on, he can feel the birth of the No-God  and can see the world in ways that no other human could during the last apocalypse. Now unmoored from the Fanim cause by the obvious truth of the second apocalypse, the world will need his ocean of water.
The Psuhke seems to work through emotion, and psuche is Greek for soul.  I think emotion has an important part to play in the whole story, and contrasts with the cold unfeeling logic of Dunyain.

But I wanted to see Shae at long last, hear him speak about his motives and why he did what he did for all of these years. See Mekeritrig go full Nonmen erratic sorcerer on his foes and show them why they feared they Consult for so long. It would have been great if he had survived and Shae had simply ceded leadership of the Consult to the Mutilated, the goal was not power but simply to save their eternal souls after all.
I reckon the Mutilated killed Shae because they couldn't master him in the same way as other beings.  By virtue of what he had become physically, with his soul constantly flitting from one dying body to another, there would be no facial expressions to read and no tone in his voice to pick up on.  He was a circumstance that couldn't be mastered, and hence he died.

I think the biggest defency of this series was the lack of a clear enemy to fight until the very end of the story, the first series had them fighting the Fanim and prosecuting the Holy War, there was an enemy for them to fight. This one the enemy never appeared except in drips and drabs, the world was the enemy and that lacks a certain narrative tension.
Agree
Title: Re: (TUS SPoilers) Thoughts on TUC
Post by: Hiro on July 29, 2017, 12:05:50 pm
Great post Ciogli, thanks.

A lot of stuff to ponder. Like what you write about Esmenet, very perceptive.

One thing I noticed is that you describe the possible Scylvendi army as a 'spear' and Zeum as another 'spear', against the No-God and his (its?) forces. Since the Ordeal has just been destroyed without too much trouble, and that was the largest host, sorcerous and non-sorcerous, assembled, I wonder whether we can consider anything left as a serious opposing force. Which is certainly an interesting situation.
Title: Re: (TUS SPoilers) Thoughts on TUC
Post by: Woden on July 29, 2017, 12:21:28 pm
"Akka has no certain role in the next series, his age makes him likely to die"

There's a lot in your post cigoli, but I'm not so sure about this one.  If fucking Keith Richards is still alive after decades of heroin addiction, no reason to assume that snorting the ashes of an ancient, immortal hero won't continue to have interesting effects on Akka- as with all of Bakker's gifts to his characters, blessings along with curses. I expect Akka to have quite a bit of life left.  He is the hero.

I too expect more from Akka, mostly because he don't do nothing of relevance in TUC, as I said before. I am convinced that he will have an important role to play in TNG but who knows, maybe Bakker is too a deceiver.  ;)
Title: Re: (TUC Spoilers) Thoughts on TUC
Post by: Madness on July 29, 2017, 01:51:11 pm
Great post, Ciogli.

Yeah... not a lot going for Earwa's humanity right now. As far as I recall, the omnipresent war POVs in TUC describe Kellhus' Ordeal the largest army assembled, ever, by almost double if I recall correctly.

Plus Kellhus' was the only empire in Earwa's history that institutionalized Witches.
Title: Re: (TUC Spoilers) Thoughts on TUC
Post by: Redeagl on July 29, 2017, 03:48:52 pm
Something partially funny, the Middle Norsirai are going to be the first people that will meet the NG....
Title: Re: (TUC Spoilers) Thoughts on TUC
Post by: TheCulminatingApe on July 29, 2017, 08:43:11 pm
Oirunas  who it says he died in the appendix when he walked into the throne of Ish  with multiple chorea strapped to his armor and caused absolute pandemonium continues for me. I am firmly along for the ride.

This is not in the appendix of my UK edition.  It just gives a date of death as 4132.
Title: Re: (TUC Spoilers) Thoughts on TUC
Post by: Dunkelheit on July 29, 2017, 09:38:55 pm
I get why people are mad with the way the Mimara story line went, I was definitely going "Come on! Fucking open you useless piece of shit!" when she stood in front of Kellhus after the death of White Luck 2. But I also love the way Kellhus just dismantled Akkas entire case afterwards, because of course he does. It's Kellhus we are talking about. In the end it was a good ride, and we learned a lot of stuff along the way even if it did really culminate in the big confrontation of Kellhus like expected.
Title: Re: (TUC Spoilers) Thoughts on TUC
Post by: themerchant on July 29, 2017, 09:40:02 pm
Oirunas  who it says he died in the appendix when he walked into the throne of Ish  with multiple chorea strapped to his armor and caused absolute pandemonium continues for me. I am firmly along for the ride.

This is not in the appendix of my UK edition.  It just gives a date of death as 4132.

just checked same for me, just some of his history and then the death date.
Title: Re: (TUC Spoilers) Thoughts on TUC
Post by: Madness on July 30, 2017, 02:56:50 pm
Oirunas  who it says he died in the appendix when he walked into the throne of Ish  with multiple chorea strapped to his armor and caused absolute pandemonium continues for me. I am firmly along for the ride.

This is not in the appendix of my UK edition.  It just gives a date of death as 4132.

just checked same for me, just some of his history and then the death date.

Well, that's some bullshit...

Reminds me of the Neuropath editions missing the killer's italicized POV sections (not a spoiler, one of them fairly obviously opens the book).
Title: Re: (TUC Spoilers) Thoughts on TUC
Post by: Ciogli on August 07, 2017, 02:11:13 pm
Since the Nonmen still have a part to play that may be why we did see who survived inside the Weeping mountain,  Oirunas was the only Tall seen. But there were more in the Holy Deep, and it seems only the Quya made to Golgotterath in time,  maybe the rebirth of the No God will make the erratic themselves like the Inverse Fire made Mek.
Title: Re: (TUC Spoilers) Thoughts on TUC
Post by: Likaro on August 07, 2017, 02:39:50 pm
Great post, Ciogli.

Yeah... not a lot going for Earwa's humanity right now. As far as I recall, the omnipresent war POVs in TUC describe Kellhus' Ordeal the largest army assembled, ever, by almost double if I recall correctly.

Plus Kellhus' was the only empire in Earwa's history that institutionalized Witches.


The size of the Ordeal never made sense to me because if you go back to PON the First Holy War was the same size, around 300k. The Ordeal definitely had many more sorcerors however. That is the biggest problem is the death of so many magic users. The cream of the Three Seas military is dead but there are still enough people in Zeum and the Three Seas to assemble big armies.
Title: Re: (TUC Spoilers) Thoughts on TUC
Post by: Duskweaver on August 07, 2017, 04:32:53 pm
Zeum still has all its sorcerers bar Malowebi. And Kellhus himself was impressed by the power and potential of the Iswazi.

Also, the EG states that the Swayal Compact outnumbers the Mandate two to one, yet there don't seem to be that many Nuns actually accompanying the Great Ordeal. Many of the battle scenes don't mention them at all, or only include a handful, far fewer than the number of Schoolmen described. The witches that do appear seem to be mostly older women who had already been illegally practising sorcery before the Manumission. I strongly suspect that there are a lot of half-trained witches back in Orovelai who did not accompany the Great Ordeal.

So I don't think humanity is quite so bereft of sorcerous might as some of you fear.
Title: Re: (TUC Spoilers) Thoughts on TUC
Post by: Redeagl on August 07, 2017, 04:50:11 pm
Zeum still has all its sorcerers bar Malowebi. And Kellhus himself was impressed by the power and potential of the Iswazi.

Also, the EG states that the Swayal Compact outnumbers the Mandate two to one, yet there don't seem to be that many Nuns actually accompanying the Great Ordeal. Many of the battle scenes don't mention them at all, or only include a handful, far fewer than the number of Schoolmen described. The witches that do appear seem to be mostly older women who had already been illegally practising sorcery before the Manumission. I strongly suspect that there are a lot of half-trained witches back in Orovelai who did not accompany the Great Ordeal.

So I don't think humanity is quite so bereft of sorcerous might as some of you fear.
It's worth mentioning that the Zeumi sorcerers are all Anagogic.
Title: Re: (TUC Spoilers) Thoughts on TUC
Post by: The Sharmat on August 07, 2017, 07:06:17 pm
Great post, Ciogli.

Yeah... not a lot going for Earwa's humanity right now. As far as I recall, the omnipresent war POVs in TUC describe Kellhus' Ordeal the largest army assembled, ever, by almost double if I recall correctly.

Plus Kellhus' was the only empire in Earwa's history that institutionalized Witches.


The size of the Ordeal never made sense to me because if you go back to PON the First Holy War was the same size, around 300k. The Ordeal definitely had many more sorcerors however. That is the biggest problem is the death of so many magic users. The cream of the Three Seas military is dead but there are still enough people in Zeum and the Three Seas to assemble big armies.
Yeah I think Bakker screwed up with how many are left by the time they get to Golgotterath. It was only reduced to 1/4th its size? Realistically, the host would probably be reduced that much just from an unopposed march of that size, much less the battlefield attrition suffered, autocannibalism, and the god damn nuke. He did a better job with the Holy War.
Title: Re: (TUC Spoilers) Thoughts on TUC
Post by: Likaro on August 07, 2017, 07:37:28 pm
They had around 300k when they left and around 100k at the battle of Golgotterath. I would have liked it more if he left with like 500 k and got there with 100 k but whatever.
Title: Re: (TUC Spoilers) Thoughts on TUC
Post by: The Sharmat on August 07, 2017, 08:27:32 pm
I thought the initial Ordeal was around half a million men?

Personally before this book I figured we were down to 1/10th or even 1/20th of the original host (but still most of the schoolmen, which is what matters)
Title: Re: (TUC Spoilers) Thoughts on TUC
Post by: Madness on August 08, 2017, 03:07:59 pm
Zeum still has all its sorcerers bar Malowebi. And Kellhus himself was impressed by the power and potential of the Iswazi.

Also, the EG states that the Swayal Compact outnumbers the Mandate two to one, yet there don't seem to be that many Nuns actually accompanying the Great Ordeal. Many of the battle scenes don't mention them at all, or only include a handful, far fewer than the number of Schoolmen described. The witches that do appear seem to be mostly older women who had already been illegally practising sorcery before the Manumission. I strongly suspect that there are a lot of half-trained witches back in Orovelai who did not accompany the Great Ordeal.

So I don't think humanity is quite so bereft of sorcerous might as some of you fear.

Despite Bakker's cagey responses on the AMA (I've yet to really dig into the Q&A thread here), it seems like there's a surviving portion of the Ordeal.

It's worth mentioning that the Zeumi sorcerers are all Anagogic.

That's the implication but we don't really know much about the Mbimayu. As per Malowebi in TGO, the way the Mbimayu inutteral works seemed anomalous as did their use of fetishes. Also, Zeum, like the Fanim, doesn't separate faith and sorcery, which is... curious, to say the least.

Yeah I think Bakker screwed up with how many are left by the time they get to Golgotterath. It was only reduced to 1/4th its size? Realistically, the host would probably be reduced that much just from an unopposed march of that size, much less the battlefield attrition suffered, autocannibalism, and the god damn nuke. He did a better job with the Holy War.

I'd have to check but while the whole Ordeal - minus the congregation where Sorweel finds Zsoronga - participated in eating the Scalded, I think that the text explicitly says that only ten thousand contributed to the preceding Night of Bacchanal and the slaughter of the Judges.
Title: Re: (TUC Spoilers) Thoughts on TUC
Post by: Wilshire on June 12, 2019, 05:49:58 pm
Ciogli, great post.

Definitely a lot ot ponder here, and as I read through these old TUC posts, I'm notice a theme. Most people realizing that while Esmenet might not have been the most interesting character, she did end up having a ridiuclously significant impact on the story. Though this is mainly through the birth of children, its still significant.

I'm not sure if this was intentional by Bakker or not, but it seems almost every important woman in the story had an important, world-altering, chosen one child. The only one that does not is Serwa, who I guess was supposed to be too busy being a badass Grandmaster Mage-Monk to be bothered... But with this thought in mind, I wonder if she, too, had a special child with a greater role to play in later books.

Regarding the rest of your post, its difficult to ferret out a single reason why people disliked the novel or the series. As time has passed, I've seen a lot of different reasons, not all of which can be explained as people expecting an ending they didn't get. Some, maybe, but not all.

Definitely though, a concluding story would be most welcome, seeing as how we ended up with more loose ends at the end of TUC/TAE than one might be prone to expect. I hope some day we get that story.
Title: Re: (TUC Spoilers) Thoughts on TUC
Post by: Rots on September 29, 2019, 02:25:51 pm

Definitely though, a concluding story would be most welcome, seeing as how we ended up with more loose ends at the end of TUC/TAE than one might be prone to expect. I hope some day we get that story.

ehhh...The longer i am away the more im glad im gone from the books. Still the best fantasy books ive read this century and maybe ever but...Bakker really just annoyed the shit out of me w/his intentional ambiguities.

Has he ever explained the, iirc, the panties coming off comment regarding TUC? Has he ever come back to what we all supposedly missed in the Golden Room scene?

Hes so insistent on being inscrutable and then claiming that our awareness of said inscrutability is actually showing us how well we understand him that it borders on open trolling. Imo.

My memory is hazy but decades ago in Dragon magazine there was a cartoon w/a dragon on top of a destroyed tower/castle with destruction all around w/the caption: Sometimes the Dragon Wins.

Thats basically my hope for these books - The dragon (consult) wins and the world is closed. I mean if there is another series i will find it basically wildly implausible if not outright fucking stupid if humanity can defeat the mutilated/shea/consult/hordes of sranc.

There are 8 figure sranc aimed straight at TTS and then Zeum. Zerg the shit out of everyone, eat them/kill them, the end. Consult rules forever. If there is some bullshit Kellhus in the Outside Deus Ex Machina move still to be played id prefer RSB just keep it to himself.
Title: Re: (TUC Spoilers) Thoughts on TUC
Post by: Wilshire on September 30, 2019, 12:40:21 pm
To succinctly answer all your questions: No. There has been no further clarification. Bakker went radio silent for over year, this month was actually his first TPB in a year, and its obviously been longer since he's said anything about the books.

FWIW, I hope he doesn't do any more online Q&A/AMA/etc. things, for the sake of his fans. Because, yes, his interactions tend towards outright trolling, even if unintentional (which in many cases I doubt). When talking about the books, he is always obfuscating, usually disingenuous, and often lies outright. For me personally its entertaining, but I think he drives people away from the books, which is ultimately bad for the series.

So its probably for the best that he sticks to writing.
Title: Re: (TUC Spoilers) Thoughts on TUC
Post by: H on September 30, 2019, 01:10:48 pm
If there is some bullshit Kellhus in the Outside Deus Ex Machina move still to be played id prefer RSB just keep it to himself.

Well, I don't know that Kellhus still having an impact would be deus ex machina at this point, but I too would be a bit disappointed if that was the "key."

I'd much rather, personally, if it is/was/will be Mimara who is the real key to undoing the No-God.  But no, I don't think the "solution" is that they somehow actually kill all the Sranc.  I'd think the "answer" is to undo the No-God (in my mind, by Mimara, using the Eye and answering it's "questions") then surviving well enough after that.


On the usual note, I don't know that Bakker ever, really, outright lied.  He just makes vague statements that seem to be saying something, but really aren't actually clear in reality.
Title: Re: (TUC Spoilers) Thoughts on TUC
Post by: Wilshire on September 30, 2019, 02:01:42 pm
Lol, well the example I cite is an old one, but he said Cnaiur's story arc was finished. Which, clearly, no. Most of the things people bring up more recently are probably misinterpretation, but when you set out to be deceiving its hard to call it something else.

I agree that Humanity's  "win condition" is not killing all the sranc, the consult, nor getting rid of the gods and their hells. Given the whole repeating history bit, the win would probably be the undoing of the No God, just like last time. As with the first apocalypse, billions of sranc didn't seem to help much after the big yoke controlling them all was destroyed - I don't see any reason for why that wouldn't work a second time.
Title: Re: (TUC Spoilers) Thoughts on TUC
Post by: H on September 30, 2019, 02:19:36 pm
Lol, well the example I cite is an old one, but he said Cnaiur's story arc was finished. Which, clearly, no. Most of the things people bring up more recently are probably misinterpretation, but when you set out to be deceiving its hard to call it something else.

Well, indeed, in that case, what else could he do that would not spoil the coming end of the books though?  If he refuses to answer, we'd already suspect that there is more to it.  If he says yes, then it's already spoiler and if he says no, then he lied.  It's no win for him and punishes him for engaging with the community.

I agree that Humanity's  "win condition" is not killing all the sranc, the consult, nor getting rid of the gods and their hells. Given the whole repeating history bit, the win would probably be the undoing of the No God, just like last time. As with the first apocalypse, billions of sranc didn't seem to help much after the big yoke controlling them all was destroyed - I don't see any reason for why that wouldn't work a second time.

I'd personally think that the "best" answer is to disenchant/undo/deactivate the No-God, via Mimara, then actually capture the Sarcophagus and either destroy it, or put it somewhere that it can't be gotten to again.
Title: Re: (TUC Spoilers) Thoughts on TUC
Post by: Wilshire on September 30, 2019, 02:35:50 pm
That's what spoiler tags are for, besides the classic Glomar response (or bakker's own RAFO).
Title: Re: (TUC Spoilers) Thoughts on TUC
Post by: H on September 30, 2019, 03:47:57 pm
That's what spoiler tags are for, besides the classic Glomar response (or bakker's own RAFO).

I still think it's a losing proposition in either case, spoiler tag or not.

I guess I am just weird.  To me, it seems nearly akin to being upset with your parents for "lying" to you as a kid, that Santa Claus exists.  I mean, yeah, but it's not just "that simple" to me.
Title: Re: (TUC Spoilers) Thoughts on TUC
Post by: TaoHorror on September 30, 2019, 09:55:22 pm
That's what spoiler tags are for, besides the classic Glomar response (or bakker's own RAFO).

I still think it's a losing proposition in either case, spoiler tag or not.

I guess I am just weird.  To me, it seems nearly akin to being upset with your parents for "lying" to you as a kid, that Santa Claus exists.  I mean, yeah, but it's not just "that simple" to me.

I agree - I don't want the series spoiled for me. So I support him in not providing "good" answers for the future. That said, anything he thinks we should've gotten should get an answer when we don't - not cryptic you missed something in some scene. But that's not too bad as I don't want the author to explain everything to me, but if he genuinely wants us to get some things, pick up on significance, then just spill it.
Title: Re: (TUC Spoilers) Thoughts on TUC
Post by: H on September 30, 2019, 10:07:25 pm
I agree - I don't want the series spoiled for me. So I support him in not providing "good" answers for the future. That said, anything he thinks we should've gotten should get an answer when we don't - not cryptic you missed something in some scene. But that's not too bad as I don't want the author to explain everything to me, but if he genuinely wants us to get some things, pick up on significance, then just spill it.

I do agree.  I think some things likely should be less opaque, ideally.  But, not necessarily so much so that we have nothing to think about or discuss.  If there were, hypothetically, no ambiguity, there would be nothing to really talk about.

In other words, if everything was just a matter of facts, once we had the facts, we'd be "done."  But it's not a matter of facts, to me, it's a matter of interpretation.
Title: Re: (TUC Spoilers) Thoughts on TUC
Post by: TaoHorror on September 30, 2019, 10:51:41 pm
I agree - I don't want the series spoiled for me. So I support him in not providing "good" answers for the future. That said, anything he thinks we should've gotten should get an answer when we don't - not cryptic you missed something in some scene. But that's not too bad as I don't want the author to explain everything to me, but if he genuinely wants us to get some things, pick up on significance, then just spill it.

I do agree.  I think some things likely should be less opaque, ideally.  But, not necessarily so much so that we have nothing to think about or discuss.  If there were, hypothetically, no ambiguity, there would be nothing to really talk about.

In other words, if everything was just a matter of facts, once we had the facts, we'd be "done."  But it's not a matter of facts, to me, it's a matter of interpretation.

Right - look at all of the rich discussion here over the years on the story. Some of the contemplations I've read here are as interesting as the story itself, even the wrong ones - we don't know yet which are/will be correct, maybe none are, but even if/when some speculations are vetted incorrect, they're still fun to read, got me thinking and allowed me to connect with other enthusiasts. Otherwise it just becomes a love fest/rock concert of cheering if it was all laid out clear with no poetry to it.
Title: Re: (TUC Spoilers) Thoughts on TUC
Post by: Rots on September 30, 2019, 11:42:04 pm
Im not looking for RSB to just spell it out - if i wanted that this series would be a few paragraphs. But when he says specific things and doesnt follow up it annoys me. But, whatever, if he writes more ill buy it cause the work is still great but i can deal w/fewer RSB proclamations, tbh. Zombie three seas is a lost world.

As for the 'winning' condition, yes, its probably going to be Mimara focused. But again, its all guesses. Id honestly prefer to not have a redux of the First Apocalypse w/a last second save taking down the No-God. Its hard to see how future books dont just rehash the First Apocalypse but this time w/a different magical last second save.

Im up for more atrocity tales. Id like to learn all about the Consult, which RSB said we would (and then didnt), more details post ArkFall, etc etc.

I still love the books, just feeling quite meh about their author. Compartmentalizing ftw!
Title: Re: (TUC Spoilers) Thoughts on TUC
Post by: Wilshire on October 01, 2019, 12:48:21 pm
I still love the books, just feeling quite meh about their author. Compartmentalizing ftw!
I think many people feel this way.
Title: Re: (TUC Spoilers) Thoughts on TUC
Post by: H on October 01, 2019, 01:21:32 pm
I don't know, I guess I am just pretty resigned to the fact that Bakker is a flawed person.  I guess that just doesn't surprise me.

I mean, I do wish some things were done differently in the books, but they just are what they are (now).

I, however, do see numerous ways that TNG doesn't have to be a rehash of the First Apocalypse.  We don't know what the "personality" of the insertant has, as an effect, on the behavior of the No-God apparatus (if any).  We don't know what the long term consequence will be of the removal of the Chorae from the Carapace, despite the massive culling that the Schools underwent as a result of the end of the Ordeal, presumably the No-God is relatively "more" vulnerable to sorcery this time.

Plus, there is a decided lack of leadership as many of the "old powers" were lost in the Ordeal.  There is also the "added" factor of the Fanim, more specifically, the fact that Kellhus specifically did not kill Meppa, meaning that the Psûhke is still "on the table."

Then, of course, is the added factor of Mimara.  In my deluded mind, Kellhus' comment that "she is what he pretends to be" or however it is phrased, is a fact.  That she will be something like a "Prophet" or a savior.  That alone is much different than the First Apocalypse.

Also, I still do think that Bakker is "playing" (in a sort of Heideggerian way) with the word "Apocalypse."  While it's "common use" is taken more from it's biblical tone, it's root is: "Old English, via Old French and ecclesiastical Latin from Greek apokalupsis, from apokaluptein ‘uncover, reveal’, from apo- ‘un-’ + kaluptein ‘to cover’."  So, what is uncovered, or revealed?  To me, that is the call to the role of Mimara.  The "revelation" that Logos (rationality/logic) is not the "savior" nor is the "tekne" (technology).  No, the "answer" is more akin to Hegel's "Geist," that is, Spirit.  I won't rehash the circumlocutions of my Eärwan Souls thread here, but there is something "there" to me.
Title: Re: (TUC Spoilers) Thoughts on TUC
Post by: Wilshire on October 01, 2019, 02:30:12 pm
I didnt mean to suggest that TNG would be a rehash. Only insofar as the entire TSA series is a rehash of the First Apocalypse to begin (which it most definitely is) and historical events repeating keeps happening both in long term and even shorter term (Short term: moenghus->20 years->dies chorae, repeated by Kellhus->20 years-> dies chorae. Long Term: See Ordeal in First Apocalypse and Great Ordeal in Second).

IMO the conclusion of the Mog Pharau itself is pretty inevitable. The specific How will be different than last time around, and the timing might be way different. There's only supposed to be 2 books, and one of them is following around Crabicus (probably). My suspicion is that the entire ending saga will be rather succinct, with much of the story arcs concluded in the first book, and the second book a bunch of exposition with Crabicus and Narrator after the end of the world is resolved.
Title: Re: (TUC Spoilers) Thoughts on TUC
Post by: H on October 01, 2019, 03:00:55 pm
I didnt mean to suggest that TNG would be a rehash. Only insofar as the entire TSA series is a rehash of the First Apocalypse to begin (which it most definitely is) and historical events repeating keeps happening both in long term and even shorter term (Short term: moenghus->20 years->dies chorae, repeated by Kellhus->20 years-> dies chorae. Long Term: See Ordeal in First Apocalypse and Great Ordeal in Second).

Oh, no, that was to follow up on what Rots was saying, not that you were implying it would be.  Of course, the path is prepapred to a degree, the Second Apocalypse naturally following the First.  But there are a number of historically "contingent" aspects of the First that are not likely to be the case in the second.  But I think the point is that some things will likely be "mirrored" again, like the "Seswatha role" being taken on by Akka.

IMO the conclusion of the Mog Pharau itself is pretty inevitable. The specific How will be different than last time around, and the timing might be way different. There's only supposed to be 2 books, and one of them is following around Crabicus (probably). My suspicion is that the entire ending saga will be rather succinct, with much of the story arcs concluded in the first book, and the second book a bunch of exposition with Crabicus and Narrator after the end of the world is resolved.

Well, Bakker's "anticipated" series lengths never have really panned out.  First, it was to be 3 books, total.  The first turned into 3 books itself.  The second into 4 books.  The last into a hypothetical 3 books.  I would not be surprised if it was actually 4 books though, once he really gets into writing them.
Title: Re: (TUC Spoilers) Thoughts on TUC
Post by: Wilshire on October 01, 2019, 07:49:54 pm
The first turned into 3 books itself.

Since he split the entire series from 3 books to 3 individual series, TNG was always 2 books (with PON and TAE supposed to be 3 books).

I think 2 is likely, with 3 being possible if he gets into it.
Title: Re: (TUC Spoilers) Thoughts on TUC
Post by: H on October 01, 2019, 09:52:40 pm
Since he split the entire series from 3 books to 3 individual series, TNG was always 2 books (with PON and TAE supposed to be 3 books).

I think 2 is likely, with 3 being possible if he gets into it.

Well, his "estimates" have always turned out to be on the low side in the past.  We can either surmise he is getting better and more accurate now.  Or, that he will be just as inaccurate as ever.  Without any fact of the matter on his future writing, we can safely say we just have to wait and see how it turns out.
Title: Re: (TUC Spoilers) Thoughts on TUC
Post by: SmilerLoki on October 01, 2019, 11:18:40 pm
I'm reasonably certain there will be similarities to the First Apocalypse and new revelations alike (on the latter part especially, I'm with H).
Title: Re: (TUC Spoilers) Thoughts on TUC
Post by: H on October 02, 2019, 03:07:09 pm
I'm reasonably certain there will be similarities to the First Apocalypse and new revelations alike (on the latter part especially, I'm with H).

Yeah, I think Mimara is very much the "complicating" factor, also, maybe the baby as well.  Otherwise, indeed, there is a large amount of parallel between the First and what will be the Second Apocalypse.  Part of what is likely to be significatly different though, is the Mutilated and if there is, possibly, some difference in the No-God as a result of the different insertant.  Or, is the matter of the insertant irrelevant.  As they are likened to circuits, do circuits have personality?  No.  But, does that mean that every circuit will behave the exact same way?  Unclear in this case.  Could be one would last longer or shorter (we know the No-God has a "shelf-life" of sorts).  Could be that one performs some aspect of function better.  It's hard to say, just depends on what Bakker wants to do thematically with it...
Title: Re: (TUC Spoilers) Thoughts on TUC
Post by: Wilshire on October 02, 2019, 03:24:47 pm
No-God reminds me of Sin from FFX. Spoilers, its a big ass monster that destroys  cities, and when whoever kills it becomes it the next time around. You break the cycle of rebirth by doing some flim flam involving utilizing the emotions of the previous insertant and killing it in a special way so that it doesn't regenerate.

Kelmomas being a known quantity and hyper obsessed with Esmi is a pretty close approximation of that scenario.
Title: Re: (TUC Spoilers) Thoughts on TUC
Post by: H on October 02, 2019, 04:28:00 pm
I think there is a sort inflection point there on what Bakker wants to do with regards to the No-God.

He can either double down on the sort of p-zombie, technological aspect, that is, that the No-God is more a thing, than a subjective consciousness.  Or, he can open it up, that, with this particular iteration, for whatever reason, this No-God is less "thing-like."

Frankly, there is no clear indication which way he wants to go.  In fact, Bakker has even made nebulous comments about there being "two ways to go" or some such.  That could well be part of it.  It could even be the case that he isn't 100% sure, or at least wasn't as of the end to TUC which way he really preferred.
Title: Re: (TUC Spoilers) Thoughts on TUC
Post by: TaoHorror on October 03, 2019, 02:19:54 pm
The nature of TNG could get thick - they jump started it, so it may not behave much as it did in the past. Even if not conscious, it may have Consult unintended consequences, like including them in the population reduction, it may well kill them off first and then who controls/influences it ... Esmi?. The thing cruises around, killing everyone, looking for it's mother. Anyways, just daydreaming, hope we get to find out.
Title: Re: (TUC Spoilers) Thoughts on TUC
Post by: H on October 03, 2019, 02:55:06 pm
The nature of TNG could get thick - they jump started it, so it may not behave much as it did in the past. Even if not conscious, it may have Consult unintended consequences, like including them in the population reduction, it may well kill them off first and then who controls/influences it ... Esmi?. The thing cruises around, killing everyone, looking for it's mother. Anyways, just daydreaming, hope we get to find out.

Well, it certainly would be a major question as to if Kelmomas can even recognize Emenet at this point, or, well anything for that matter.  The fact that it both iterations of the No-God seem intent on, at least, attempting self-discovery, that is, appealing to self-consciousness, means there might be something left of the Insertant.

But that could well be delusion, if Bakker wants to take it that direction.  I'd say it likely is a bit more interesting if there is some "personality" left of Kel in the No-God, but that might be incompatible with the thematic notion Bakker has in the hypothetical "union of subject and object" sense.
Title: Re: (TUC Spoilers) Thoughts on TUC
Post by: TaoHorror on October 03, 2019, 03:18:04 pm
I find the idea of TNG being conscious ( sorta, kinda, maybe or even completely ) fascinating and that could take the story in many interesting directions. But, even if not conscious, since The Consult doesn't know what they're doing with the thing, simply getting it to work could've read the insertant incorrectly and it could be programmed to find mommy, for example. A mindless mass killing machine coded to search for Esmi because the Consult fucked up and didn't understand exactly how the thing is supposed to work. R is pretty good at not giving us what we're expecting, so there's no telling who rises, falls and likely no clear "winner". TNG is defeated, but something worse results than the population being reduced to 144k or TNG is not defeated, but humanity thrives in it's wake, etc. I want to know what happens to the souls it reads - are they destroyed or do they return to the Cubit or go to the outside or simply roam around inside ...
Title: Re: (TUC Spoilers) Thoughts on TUC
Post by: H on October 03, 2019, 04:08:55 pm
Well, I don't think anyone really knows how the No-God works, except maybe the Progenitors themselves.  Or, much like some of our neural-networks now, we actually don't know exactly what they do, only that it gets done.  So, the Sarcophagus might just be a literal block-box, that just does what it does.  It might even not have been made by the Progenitors themselves.  If it was the case that Ark was an AI or something like that, it might have devised the Sarcophagus itself with little to no understanding of any deeper meaning.  So, indeed, almost anything is likely potentially "on the table" because there is so much undefined.

As for what happens when the No-God is destroyed, well, we don't know.  However, since the Consult didn't just suicide themselves when the No-God came to be the first time means, either, the souls get set to the Outside, or stuck in a transitory state, or something "worse."  In any case, part of the Consult plan is to specifically "close the world" and then enjoy corporeal life.  So, it could be that souls under the No-God just cease to be but the Consult is averse to this outcome.  They are after life, eternal, not an existence of damnation or simple non-existence.

Not only that, but part of the scheme is to end the system.  That is, to close of damnation altogether.  In this sense, they do have a "noble" aim, even though it's actually terrible, just in a different way than the Cubit's demands are.
Title: Re: (TUC Spoilers) Thoughts on TUC
Post by: Wilshire on October 04, 2019, 02:59:38 pm
For all we know, finding Mommy might have been all that Nau was doing as the NG as well :P .
Title: Re: (TUC Spoilers) Thoughts on TUC
Post by: H on October 04, 2019, 07:21:57 pm
For all we know, finding Mommy might have been all that Nau was doing as the NG as well :P .

Haha, well, we don't know about Nau mommy...

Jokes aside, as a pseudo-random thought, we don't actually know what "powers" the No-God.  As in, I doubt it has batteries.  Perhaps what actually fuels it, what makes the whole thing work, is the soul in questions need, or seeking, or demanding, toward something.  That yearning, that unquenchable desire, or need, might well be what separates a potential insertant from what ends up being just another dead body they stuffed in there.

So, while it might not have been Nau's mommy issues, it might not have been far off...
Title: Re: (TUC Spoilers) Thoughts on TUC
Post by: themerchant on October 05, 2019, 06:41:00 pm
I don't know, I guess I am just pretty resigned to the fact that Bakker is a flawed person.  I guess that just doesn't surprise me.

I mean, I do wish some things were done differently in the books, but they just are what they are (now).

I, however, do see numerous ways that TNG doesn't have to be a rehash of the First Apocalypse.  We don't know what the "personality" of the insertant has, as an effect, on the behavior of the No-God apparatus (if any).  We don't know what the long term consequence will be of the removal of the Chorae from the Carapace, despite the massive culling that the Schools underwent as a result of the end of the Ordeal, presumably the No-God is relatively "more" vulnerable to sorcery this time.

Plus, there is a decided lack of leadership as many of the "old powers" were lost in the Ordeal.  There is also the "added" factor of the Fanim, more specifically, the fact that Kellhus specifically did not kill Meppa, meaning that the Psûhke is still "on the table."

Then, of course, is the added factor of Mimara.  In my deluded mind, Kellhus' comment that "she is what he pretends to be" or however it is phrased, is a fact.  That she will be something like a "Prophet" or a savior.  That alone is much different than the First Apocalypse.

Also, I still do think that Bakker is "playing" (in a sort of Heideggerian way) with the word "Apocalypse."  While it's "common use" is taken more from it's biblical tone, it's root is: "Old English, via Old French and ecclesiastical Latin from Greek apokalupsis, from apokaluptein ‘uncover, reveal’, from apo- ‘un-’ + kaluptein ‘to cover’."  So, what is uncovered, or revealed?  To me, that is the call to the role of Mimara.  The "revelation" that Logos (rationality/logic) is not the "savior" nor is the "tekne" (technology).  No, the "answer" is more akin to Hegel's "Geist," that is, Spirit.  I won't rehash the circumlocutions of my Eärwan Souls thread here, but there is something "there" to me.

Isn't it Mimara that says She is what kellhus pretends to be?
Title: Re: (TUC Spoilers) Thoughts on TUC
Post by: themerchant on October 05, 2019, 06:43:50 pm
I didnt mean to suggest that TNG would be a rehash. Only insofar as the entire TSA series is a rehash of the First Apocalypse to begin (which it most definitely is) and historical events repeating keeps happening both in long term and even shorter term (Short term: moenghus->20 years->dies chorae, repeated by Kellhus->20 years-> dies chorae. Long Term: See Ordeal in First Apocalypse and Great Ordeal in Second).


Plus the names, plus the twin thing. Kellhus being a direct descendant of the original dynasty opposing the consult.
Title: Re: (TUC Spoilers) Thoughts on TUC
Post by: themerchant on October 05, 2019, 06:50:28 pm
I think the fact Mimara as the God can see the Carpace while Cnaiur as Ajokli cannot has some significance. The last part of the book is basically Mimara staring at the carpace. Then Cnaiur strolling down looking for the carpace (was ajokli assuming it was kellhus in the carpace?) and not being able to see it.

Well apart from Mimara casting away her last protection from Akka (chorae) and embracing him fully in some way, if Akka wasn't there no one would have started running either.
Title: Re: (TUC Spoilers) Thoughts on TUC
Post by: H on October 07, 2019, 12:20:45 pm
Isn't it Mimara that says She is what kellhus pretends to be?

Ah, yeah, not sure how or why I reversed that in my mind...