[TUC Spoilers] How did the Inchoroi come think Earwa was the promised land?

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TLEILAXU

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« Reply #75 on: March 14, 2018, 06:32:27 pm »
Quote from:  TLEILAXU
The Inchoroi homeworld is not meaningless lol. The whole universe is meaningful in this story, that's the fundamental premise. Gods and souls are as real in an anarcane place as they are in an arcane place. Anarcane and arcane refer to sorcery, i.e. "co-opting" the song of the God of Gods. God dreams lucidly in anarcane places, so sorcery becomes impossible.

Where do you get this from. If the Gods don nor interact with their world, no sorcery, then it is meaningless. Know idea where you got this idea.
The explanation is in the post you quoted. The universe is meaningful, Gods, souls and Damnation are objectively and demonstrably real in this universe, that is why the Inchoroi set out on their quest for shutting off the Outside. This is the premise of the story.

You've read it wrong. And we have tons of evidence to the contrary. The 2 Inchoroi and a few human sorcerers found the NG. Figured out how it worked. Oh, added some chorale to it for defense against magic (which correct me if I'm wrong, Wilshire said the NG was magical), then Aurang knew it needed a inerrant. So, they start tossing in people, until one works, Nayu. Not the original. The Ark was an entity unto its own self. The Inchoroi called it mother. It didn't need a human to run on. Or, to sustain itself. No magic. All tekne.
My interpretation is, they found some knowledge (written or stored in some kind of Tekne device), which included the plans to the No-God, then created or found (can go both ways) the Sarcophagus without possessing the full understanding of its workings. For some reason they decided that a soul must power it. Might have been in the plans, might have been part of their ad-hoc solution. Long story short, they were right and after many tries it worked.
Bakker states that explicitly that the reason that Nau Cayuti could be used was because his brain structure emulated that of the original insertant, which means that the No-God had insertants in previous incarnations. The supply of insertants and probably also a great deal of knowledge about how to activate the No-God was lost during Arkfall.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2018, 06:35:51 pm by TLEILAXU »

SmilerLoki

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« Reply #76 on: March 14, 2018, 06:35:46 pm »
The explanation is in the post you quoted. The universe is meaningful, Gods, souls and Damnation are objectively and demonstrably real in this universe, that is why the Inchoroi set out on their quest for shutting off the Outside. This is the premise of the story.
I feel the need to say that I agree with this completely.

Bakker states that explicitly that the reason that Nau Cayuti could be used was because his brain structure emulated that of the original insertant, which means that the No-God had insertants in previous incarnations. The supply of insertants and probably also a great deal of knowledge about how to activate the No-God was lost during Arkfall.
I remember Bakker saying this, but not in regards to Nau-Cayuti. It was said in general, about a hypothetical Insertant. That's what I've gotten from Bakker's answer.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2018, 06:39:10 pm by SmilerLoki »

MSJ

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« Reply #77 on: March 14, 2018, 06:37:42 pm »
Quote from:  SmilerLoki
The explanation is in the post you quoted. The universe is meaningful, Gods, souls and Damnation are objectively and demonstrably real in this universe, that is why the Inchoroi set out on their quest for shutting off the Outside. This is the premise of the story.

No, SL, the entire universe is not meaningful. We know this through the countless planets the Inchoroi destroyed. That the Inchoroi home planet was meaningless, no sorcery and such.

Their goal was to find a meaningful world. One that they could live on, shut themselves off from hell and live forever. I have no clue how you come to that conclusion. Look, always in for a a good conversation. But, a lot I've heard in this thread has never been mentioned til now. We can't just go creating new rules.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Wilshire

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« Reply #78 on: March 14, 2018, 06:38:18 pm »
Maybe this sheds some light onto where I'm coming from?
Yes, thank you! It's very helpful and enlightening, but I feel that point still stands when we use my paradigm. Then Tekne is the equivalent of our science, but by virtue of being in a world with different laws, it's still able to achieve results that are completely fantastic in our world. Basically, sorcery begins with magic, while Tekne comes to magic only in its advanced stages.

And the Tekne shown in the series is more advanced then our technology.
I just don't see that interpretation in my reading of the story.

I would expect, then, that the Inchoroi wouldn't have all died trying desperately to graft the ability to see the Onta, if it was something they could fix with a pair of cool sunglasses. For a race trying even more desperately to avoid damnation, dying would be the absolute last resort - they would have found a technological solution to the issue. Ontaglasses would have made more sense 8)
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Wilshire

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« Reply #79 on: March 14, 2018, 06:39:13 pm »
Quote from:  SmilerLoki
The explanation is in the post you quoted. The universe is meaningful, Gods, souls and Damnation are objectively and demonstrably real in this universe, that is why the Inchoroi set out on their quest for shutting off the Outside. This is the premise of the story.

No, SL, the entire universe is not meaningful. We know this through the countless planets the Inchoroi destroyed. That the Inchoroi home planet was meaningless, no sorcery and such.

Their goal was to find a meaningful world. One that they could live on, shut themselves off from hell and live forever. I have no clue how you come to that conclusion. Look, always in for a a good conversation. But, a lot I've heard in this thread has never been mentioned til now. We can't just go creating new rules.

ETA:
For clarity, the confusion is that damnation/heaven/Outside can't exist in a meaningless Universe. It does exist, therefore, the world is meaningful. Inchoroi homeworld and otherwise.

Earwa is the only place where that meaning can be accessed for some reason (again, ignoring this thread, as its confusing things).
« Last Edit: March 14, 2018, 06:50:21 pm by Wilshire »
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MSJ

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« Reply #80 on: March 14, 2018, 06:40:28 pm »
The Outside is an entirely separate entity from the Universe. It is only connected to Earwa, the promised, meaningful planet.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

SmilerLoki

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« Reply #81 on: March 14, 2018, 06:42:28 pm »
I just don't see that interpretation in my reading of the story.
I understand.

I would expect, then, that the Inchoroi wouldn't have all died trying desperately to graft the ability to see the Onta, if it was something they could fix with a pair of cool sunglasses. For a race trying even more desperately to avoid damnation, dying would be the absolute last resort - they would have found a technological solution to the issue. Ontaglasses would have made more sense 8)
Sure, but they only had Grafting as their means, and it proved to be less than ideal. Still, Grafting is Tekne, and it eventually gave them sorcery.

Wilshire

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« Reply #82 on: March 14, 2018, 06:44:34 pm »
The Outside is an entirely separate entity from the Universe. It is only connected to Earwa, the promised, meaningful planet.
That doesn't make sense. Then there is no damnation or salvation except on Earwa (edited my previous post, btw), and the Inchoroi/proginators would never have sought to shut the universe from the gods.

Earwa is where the universe can access that meaning. Shutting Earwa shuts on the meaningfulness faucet. And/or shutting Earwa remove the plug from meaning and drains all meaninfulness from the Universe.

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SmilerLoki

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« Reply #83 on: March 14, 2018, 06:44:57 pm »
The Outside is an entirely separate entity from the Universe. It is only connected to Earwa, the promised, meaningful planet.
Then how do you explain the Inverse Fire? It worked on the Ark always, not only in Earwa.

Wilshire

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« Reply #84 on: March 14, 2018, 06:45:45 pm »
I just don't see that interpretation in my reading of the story.
I understand.

I would expect, then, that the Inchoroi wouldn't have all died trying desperately to graft the ability to see the Onta, if it was something they could fix with a pair of cool sunglasses. For a race trying even more desperately to avoid damnation, dying would be the absolute last resort - they would have found a technological solution to the issue. Ontaglasses would have made more sense 8)
Glad we got here SL :D . As always, things are easier when we define our starting conditions, but we figured out how to backtrack from the middle lol.
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TLEILAXU

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« Reply #85 on: March 14, 2018, 06:47:15 pm »
Quote from:  SmilerLoki
The explanation is in the post you quoted. The universe is meaningful, Gods, souls and Damnation are objectively and demonstrably real in this universe, that is why the Inchoroi set out on their quest for shutting off the Outside. This is the premise of the story.

No, SL, the entire universe is not meaningful. We know this through the countless planets the Inchoroi destroyed. That the Inchoroi home planet was meaningless, no sorcery and such.

Their goal was to find a meaningful world. One that they could live on, shut themselves off from hell and live forever. I have no clue how you come to that conclusion. Look, always in for a a good conversation. But, a lot I've heard in this thread has never been mentioned til now. We can't just go creating new rules.
What the fuck man? This is Wilshire tier denial. The goal of the Inchoroi is to SHUT the Outside to prevent their souls from being damned, for which they must for some reason cleanse the "promised world". For some reason, perhaps because it's almost entirely arcane, Eärwa is this world. Being meaningful has nothing to do with sorcery, that depends on whether the God dreams lucidly in this place (see e.g. http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/78108-the-unholy-consult-previews-and-speculation/&page=17 ).
« Last Edit: March 14, 2018, 06:52:23 pm by TLEILAXU »

SmilerLoki

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« Reply #86 on: March 14, 2018, 06:47:29 pm »
Glad we got here SL :D . As always, things are easier when we define our starting conditions, but we figured out how to backtrack from the middle lol.
We figured out that our starting conditions differ, and it in itself was well worth the discussion!

Wilshire

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« Reply #87 on: March 14, 2018, 06:53:07 pm »
What the fuck man? This is Wilshire tier denial.
Its fine if making fun of me helps you feel better about yourself, but ... Can you even make arguments without personal insults, or is that just anathema to your core being? Geez.  :( :-\ :'(
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TLEILAXU

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« Reply #88 on: March 14, 2018, 06:56:05 pm »
What the fuck man? This is Wilshire tier denial.
Its fine if making fun of me helps you feel better about yourself, but ... Can you even make arguments without personal insults, or is that just anathema to your core being? Geez.  :( :-\ :'(
Actually my thought process was more like I had to insult you to not be too harsh on MSJ (not because of preferential treatment but to help him see the wrongness of his argument). Not sure if it makes sense.

SmilerLoki

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« Reply #89 on: March 14, 2018, 06:59:59 pm »
Actually my thought process was more like I had to insult you to not be too harsh on MSJ (not because of preferential treatment but to help him see the wrongness of his argument). Not sure if it makes sense.
It actually does make sense, which makes it extremely funny.

[humor mode ON]Wilshire taking one for the team![humor mode OFF]