[TUC Spoilers] How did the Inchoroi come think Earwa was the promised land?

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Wilshire

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« Reply #135 on: March 16, 2018, 12:14:20 pm »
I'm with SL on this. To me, the idea of anarcane ground is largely irrelevent - it just stops people from manipulating the world using their voice. I seriously doubt that it does anything to Ajokli and his ilk - though strangely the No-God avoided it, so, not sure how that fits in.

Well, it is possible that, as my pet theory that Anarcane ground was a "hole" in the No-God's vision hypothesized, so it is also a hole in the vision of the 100.  Just like things you don't see, they are still there, but not capable of being attended to.  This might be why the gods are so much more active on Eärwa, rather than anywhere else.  It's a place of their maximal perception.

This is kiind of a tangential discussion as well, but in my mind the No-God is meant to be an inversion of the Gods in some way. I don't understand that fully, as the nature of the Gods themselves is unclear lol, but if I take that thought and the one you presented above:

If anarcane ground is where the God(s) see most clearly and therefore rendering the use of humans (inchoroi, nonmen, etc) changing the world impossible, then I think it makes complete sense that the No-God cannot see the anarcane ground at all? Though, that implies that the No-God as it exists on earwa would either be impossible to start up elsewhere, or that if started it wouldn't be able to see anything - instead of asking 'WHO' it would ask 'WHERE'
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SmilerLoki

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« Reply #136 on: March 16, 2018, 12:24:37 pm »
If anarcane ground is where the God(s) see most clearly and therefore rendering the use of humans (inchoroi, nonmen, etc) changing the world impossible, then I think it makes complete sense that the No-God cannot see the anarcane ground at all? Though, that implies that the No-God as it exists on earwa would either be impossible to start up elsewhere, or that if started it wouldn't be able to see anything - instead of asking 'WHO' it would ask 'WHERE'
It might be that anarcane grounds stop the divine. My theory is, the No-God is an entity of the Outside, an inverse, non-conscious God. This way it just can't operate on anarcane grounds.

Wilshire

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« Reply #137 on: March 16, 2018, 12:34:51 pm »
It might be that anarcane grounds stop the divine. My theory is, the No-God is an entity of the Outside, an inverse, non-conscious God. This way it just can't operate on anarcane grounds.
I don't understand, intellectually, the discussion surrounding consciousness very well (as a general rule it seems), but also specifically in regards to the No-God.

That said, Bakker has called the No-God a p-zombie (whatever that is), but also said in his podcast with Stuff to Blow Your Mind that the Gods were something like what a physical manifestations of our own subconscious ... or something like that. Neither description does me much good lol, but I thought you might find it helpful?
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SmilerLoki

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« Reply #138 on: March 16, 2018, 12:52:13 pm »
I don't understand, intellectually, the discussion surrounding consciousness very well (as a general rule it seems), but also specifically in regards to the No-God.

That said, Bakker has called the No-God a p-zombie (whatever that is), but also said in his podcast with Stuff to Blow Your Mind that the Gods were something like what a physical manifestations of our own subconscious ... or something like that. Neither description does me much good lol, but I thought you might find it helpful?
Thank you, I'm aware of those things, this is where my theory comes from. P-zombie is basically a human that lacks some undefined quality that makes us human. P-zombie can perfectly imitate a human being while not being one. I consider the No-God to be the same concept, only applied to the Gods.

In this sense, the nature of consciousness is not even explored. Whatever it is, the No-God possesses the opposite of it, non-consciousness. What I think would happen after the world is reduced to the blessed 144k is the context of the Outside is going to be changed. Remade to be governed by a non-conscious entity (the No-God) instead of conscious ones (the Gods). The No-God cannot perceive itself, so its dominion over the Heavens and the Hells would be an empty one; it cannot eat anything, because it cannot add to what it can't see. Damnation and salvation are thus ruled out, leaving only Oblivion.

Seems more or less internally consistent. I also like how absolutely irrelevant it is to the actual story. Men of Earwa are truly in Crash Space, they have no idea why what happens around them happens. They don't understand it, they can't analyze it rationally, they can only react in the ways available to them, and those ways are spectacularly inadequate for the problems Earwa presents. I feel it illustrates Bakker's point perfectly.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2018, 04:44:53 pm by SmilerLoki »

Jabberwock03

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« Reply #139 on: March 16, 2018, 01:20:21 pm »
Oops, clicked the 'modify' button on a post other than my. Sorry H!

For clarity, this is what I meant to add to the bottom of my last post:
That's pretty much what I said I think:

- Outside exist everywhere
- Everyone is damned
- But the connection is powerful on Earwa so you can do magic and gods can do some stuff
I don't think I, or anyone, is contesting those points.

- And it's weak on Progenitors world so you can just watch your damnation through the IF and gods know you're here but can't do shit to you
I don't get this part though.
Either its so weak the humans/gods cant interact, or its not that weak and there is some interaction. That interaction is what allows the IF.

Seems unlikely that the IF is an exception to the rule: the rule that stops humans/mundane-creatures from access to the Outside without magic. So the proginators built the soggomatic ring and covered it with suspiciously runic circuitry - and Ajokli flipped the magic switch on when they pressed 'go'.



Weak enough so that the only thing that happens is soul related (being born with a soul, being subject to judgement and therefore damnation) and the IF just observe this (as if you would observe a distant star but can't change its orbit). The gods can't do crazy stuffs like Yatwer geting out of the ground all muddy and distributing choraes.
But that's only my interpretation.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2018, 01:21:54 pm by Jabberwock03 »

Jabberwock03

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« Reply #140 on: March 16, 2018, 01:25:06 pm »
It might be that anarcane grounds stop the divine. My theory is, the No-God is an entity of the Outside, an inverse, non-conscious God. This way it just can't operate on anarcane grounds.
I don't understand, intellectually, the discussion surrounding consciousness very well (as a general rule it seems), but also specifically in regards to the No-God.

That said, Bakker has called the No-God a p-zombie (whatever that is), but also said in his podcast with Stuff to Blow Your Mind that the Gods were something like what a physical manifestations of our own subconscious ... or something like that. Neither description does me much good lol, but I thought you might find it helpful?

Like a chat-bot, but much more complex. It can interact, take decision, and you can't say if it's a real person or not, but it doesn't have any self-awareness.
You take inputs, you process it, you send output.

In the other hand, the gods are all self-awarness, so much that they can create their own reality (hell/heaven), if I get it right.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2018, 01:26:45 pm by Jabberwock03 »

SuJuroit

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« Reply #141 on: March 16, 2018, 03:32:32 pm »
I question the assumption that the No-God is non-conscious or wholly lacking self-awareness.  It's aware of its own existence, asks questions about its existence, and even uses 1st person pronouns.  I think rather that the No-God is blind to itself, but is not blind to its blindness, because why else with ALL THE QUESTIONS?

For all we know, the "voice" of the No-God is simply the desperate vocalizations of a trapped soul, stuck in a box, literally and metaphysically blind to its surroundings and actions.  Perhaps the soul is merely the engine, the animus, necessary to power up the Object, but once the Object is powered and the No-God is operational, it's merely along for the ride.

SmilerLoki

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« Reply #142 on: March 16, 2018, 03:47:21 pm »
I question the assumption that the No-God is non-conscious
This is not an assumption:
http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=1755.msg27801#msg27801

You would need to read that entire topic, though. But it's small.

or wholly lacking self-awareness.
This is part of the premise of the philosophical zombie thought experiments.

Clozee

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« Reply #143 on: March 16, 2018, 03:56:06 pm »
I might post something more substantial later, but for now...

Check out these excerpts from the discussion between Shae and Titirga in The False Sun. They are surely relevant to the argument about what, if anything, Ajokli had to do with the Inverse Fire:

Quote
“So that is the source of your madness,” Titirga said. “The Inverse Fire.”

[...]

“I know only what Nil’giccas told me. That Misariccas and Runidil returned shrieking–”

Yes. Shaeönanra had also shrieked… for a time. And wept.

“–and that Cet’ingira counselled his King to have them killed.”

A barking laugh. “And did he tell you why?”

A moment of fierce scrutiny.

“Because they could not be trusted. Because they had been ensorceled… Possessed.

“No!” Shaeönanra heard himself cry. “No!” Could this be him, wagging his head like a fly-maddened ox, gesticulating like an old hag at funeral? “Because they had seen the Truth!”

Titirga gazed with undisguised distaste. “Such is the form of all possession. You know as mu–”

[...]

“Possessed, you tell yourselves. Possessed! We are different because we are no longer ourselves. You counsel the All-King to crack our Seal, destroy us and all we have toiled to achieve. Our Voices are polluted, unclean!” He threw his back in Feal laughter, cackled with spite and glee. “So tell me , if we are possessed, who is our new owner?”

“The Tekne,” the Archidemu Sohoncu said with grim confidence. “The Mangaecca have been enslaved. You have been enslaved.”

Shaeönanra blinked. Of course the fool was unmoved. Of course he had his reasons. No matter. This was indulgence, arguing like this, availing reason.

He warred with his expression–something between a grimace and a grin.”Yes… But who is our new master?

A peculiar weariness haunted Titirga as he shook his maned head: one not so much of as for.

Feal, something whispered from his gaze.

A lunatic God… perhaps. The Hells that you think you see. Something… Something adulterate, foul. Something that craves feasting, that hungers with an intensity that can bend the very Ground.”

Aurang had stood silent during this time, gazing down at the two bickering men. After the intimacies they had shared, it seemed Shaeönanra could sense the pulse of his passion. Lust in the lazy tumescence of his member. Impatience in the incline of his shield-long head. Hatred in the flicker of membranes…

“Does that not trouble you?” the Hero-Mage pressed. “That you have but one eye!”

Tedious. Tedious. Tedious.

“Why, Titirga?” Shaeönanra implored. “Why have you come here?” He shook his head, arguing with the floor. “Did you hope to show me my folly?” And it all seemed a pantomime, this incontinence of voice and expression. For beneath, he knew exactly what he needed to do. He could feel it, the certainty of snakes coiled in the darkness, the confidence of things that neither run nor sleep.”There’s no folly in what I do, I assure you. I know. I have seen!” He jerked his face back, squinting and scowling. “What are your reasons compared to this? Your guesses? Your rumours of a dead age?”

“But what, Shaeönanra? What is it you have seen? Your damnation or your goad?”

« Last Edit: March 16, 2018, 04:01:34 pm by Clozee »

SuJuroit

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« Reply #144 on: March 16, 2018, 04:22:06 pm »
I question the assumption that the No-God is non-conscious
This is not an assumption:
http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=1755.msg27801#msg27801

You would need to read that entire topic, though. But it's small.

or wholly lacking self-awareness.
This is part of the premise of the philosophical zombie thought experiments.

I'm increasingly starting to disregard Bakker's proclamations regarding his work.  Anyway, if the No-God is unaware and unconscious, then whence its questioning?  I mean sure, I could program my computer to periodically "ask" the same questions asked by the No-God, and that wouldn't mean my computer has consciousness or self-awareness, but to claim that's what's going on with the No-God is simply... lame.  Perhaps the soul within the No-God is a separate entity from the No-God?  I think I like that interpretation best of all. 

SmilerLoki

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« Reply #145 on: March 16, 2018, 04:24:32 pm »
I'm increasingly starting to disregard Bakker's proclamations regarding his work.  Anyway, if the No-God is unaware and unconscious, then whence its questioning?  I mean sure, I could program my computer to periodically "ask" the same questions asked by the No-God, and that wouldn't mean my computer has consciousness or self-awareness, but to claim that's what's going on with the No-God is simply... lame.  Perhaps the soul within the No-God is a separate entity from the No-God?  I think I like that interpretation best of all.
I completely understand your problem with the premise, but it is what it is:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_zombie

Bakker's just using it basically as is.

MSJ

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« Reply #146 on: March 16, 2018, 10:24:15 pm »
Quote from:  Wilshire
don't get this part though.

Why? Why don't you get this. If Gods do exist in our world/UNIVERSE, there is no connection here, same as with the Inchoroi's home planet. Its not that hard to comprehend. The progenitors delved too deep, created a looking glass into hell. Something, in sure many of the scientists around here would be ecstatic for. Maybe not their damnation, yet again, who knows what Mimara or Esme would see looking at the IF.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

TLEILAXU

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« Reply #147 on: March 16, 2018, 11:50:58 pm »
I might post something more substantial later, but for now...

Check out these excerpts from the discussion between Shae and Titirga in The False Sun. They are surely relevant to the argument about what, if anything, Ajokli had to do with the Inverse Fire:

Quote
“So that is the source of your madness,” Titirga said. “The Inverse Fire.”

[...]

“I know only what Nil’giccas told me. That Misariccas and Runidil returned shrieking–”

Yes. Shaeönanra had also shrieked… for a time. And wept.

“–and that Cet’ingira counselled his King to have them killed.”

A barking laugh. “And did he tell you why?”

A moment of fierce scrutiny.

“Because they could not be trusted. Because they had been ensorceled… Possessed.

“No!” Shaeönanra heard himself cry. “No!” Could this be him, wagging his head like a fly-maddened ox, gesticulating like an old hag at funeral? “Because they had seen the Truth!”

Titirga gazed with undisguised distaste. “Such is the form of all possession. You know as mu–”

[...]

“Possessed, you tell yourselves. Possessed! We are different because we are no longer ourselves. You counsel the All-King to crack our Seal, destroy us and all we have toiled to achieve. Our Voices are polluted, unclean!” He threw his back in Feal laughter, cackled with spite and glee. “So tell me , if we are possessed, who is our new owner?”

“The Tekne,” the Archidemu Sohoncu said with grim confidence. “The Mangaecca have been enslaved. You have been enslaved.”

Shaeönanra blinked. Of course the fool was unmoved. Of course he had his reasons. No matter. This was indulgence, arguing like this, availing reason.

He warred with his expression–something between a grimace and a grin.”Yes… But who is our new master?

A peculiar weariness haunted Titirga as he shook his maned head: one not so much of as for.

Feal, something whispered from his gaze.

A lunatic God… perhaps. The Hells that you think you see. Something… Something adulterate, foul. Something that craves feasting, that hungers with an intensity that can bend the very Ground.”

Aurang had stood silent during this time, gazing down at the two bickering men. After the intimacies they had shared, it seemed Shaeönanra could sense the pulse of his passion. Lust in the lazy tumescence of his member. Impatience in the incline of his shield-long head. Hatred in the flicker of membranes…

“Does that not trouble you?” the Hero-Mage pressed. “That you have but one eye!”

Tedious. Tedious. Tedious.

“Why, Titirga?” Shaeönanra implored. “Why have you come here?” He shook his head, arguing with the floor. “Did you hope to show me my folly?” And it all seemed a pantomime, this incontinence of voice and expression. For beneath, he knew exactly what he needed to do. He could feel it, the certainty of snakes coiled in the darkness, the confidence of things that neither run nor sleep.”There’s no folly in what I do, I assure you. I know. I have seen!” He jerked his face back, squinting and scowling. “What are your reasons compared to this? Your guesses? Your rumours of a dead age?”

“But what, Shaeönanra? What is it you have seen? Your damnation or your goad?”

Very nice catch. Definitely sounds like a foreshadowing of Ajokli's take over, but it can also refer to the No-God which for example has been called "Angel of Endless Hunger" (extremely fucking metal). I wouldn't be surprised if this ambiguity is very much intended by Bakker.

TLEILAXU

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« Reply #148 on: March 16, 2018, 11:53:34 pm »
I don't understand, intellectually, the discussion surrounding consciousness very well (as a general rule it seems), but also specifically in regards to the No-God.

That said, Bakker has called the No-God a p-zombie (whatever that is), but also said in his podcast with Stuff to Blow Your Mind that the Gods were something like what a physical manifestations of our own subconscious ... or something like that. Neither description does me much good lol, but I thought you might find it helpful?
Thank you, I'm aware of those things, this is where my theory comes from. P-zombie is basically a human that lacks some undefined quality that makes us human. P-zombie can perfectly imitate a human being while not being one. I consider the No-God to be the same concept, only applied to the Gods.

In this sense, the nature of consciousness is not even explored. Whatever it is, the No-God possesses the opposite of it, non-consciousness. What I think would happen after the world is reduced to the blessed 144k is the context of the Outside is going to be changed. Remade to be governed by a non-conscious entity (the No-God) instead of conscious ones (the Gods). The No-God cannot perceive itself, so its dominion over the Heavens and the Hells would be an empty one; it cannot eat anything, because it cannot add to what it can't see. Damnation and salvation are thus ruled out, leaving only Oblivion.

Seems more or less internally consistent. I also like how absolutely irrelevant it is to the actual story. Men of Earwa are truly in Crash Space, they have no idea why what happens around them happens. They don't understand it, they can't analyze it rationally, they can only react in the ways available to them, and those ways are spectacularly inadequate for the problems Earwa presents. I feel it illustrates Bakker's point perfectly.
I'd say it's the other way around. Those "metacognitive heuristics" are adept in the Earwan situation precisely because meaning/metaphysics are real things. It is the Ark/No-God that presents the crash-space.

Quote from:  Wilshire
don't get this part though.

Why? Why don't you get this. If Gods do exist in our world/UNIVERSE, there is no connection here, same as with the Inchoroi's home planet. Its not that hard to comprehend. The progenitors delved too deep, created a looking glass into hell. Something, in sure many of the scientists around here would be ecstatic for. Maybe not their damnation, yet again, who knows what Mimara or Esme would see looking at the IF.
If there's no connection you cannot be damned. Arcane/anarcane has something to do with whether God is "dreaming lucidly" in that particular place. Again, as has been said, the premise of the story is that Gods/meaning are real in this universe, unlike in our universe (from the perspective of Bakker). 

SmilerLoki

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« Reply #149 on: March 17, 2018, 04:22:04 am »
I'd say it's the other way around. Those "metacognitive heuristics" are adept in the Earwan situation precisely because meaning/metaphysics are real things. It is the Ark/No-God that presents the crash-space.
It's not the question of them being adept. They are obviously extremely useful. But only in certain situations, presented, more or less, by biology. At least this is what Bakker reiterates time and again over at TPB.

Earwa presents problems that are grounded in cognition and consciousness, which humans cannot understand from their cognitive and conscious perspective. It's akin to the No-God not seeing itself. You see the world around you, but never do you see the workings of your eyes.

At least that's what I gather from Bakker's non-fictional writing.