The Second Apocalypse
Earwa => The Aspect-Emperor => The Unholy Consult => Topic started by: Clozee on March 11, 2018, 03:39:44 pm
-
It's an unanswered question.
I like the following theory:
Because of Ajokli. Ajokli put the idea in their heads. He could influence them even when they were lightyears away from Earwa, because the Ark and especially the area around the Inverse Fire were such deep topoi. This allowed some of his influence to leak through.
(edit: Or maybe Ajokli directly influenced the mind of anyone looking into the Inverse Fire. After all, it is a "but a window into his House".)
And why did Ajokli put that idea in their heads? Because he wanted the Ark to crash on Earwa, so that eventually, thousands of years later, he could fully manifest in the golden room through Kellhus.
And maybe the malfunction that caused the Ark to crash was due to a miracle wrought by Ajokli.
Also, in TUC's glossary, there's an entry for the Ark:
Incû-Holoinas—“Ark-of-the-Skies” (Ihrimsû). The great vessel that brought the Inchoroi from the heavens and became the golden heart of Golgotterath. All scholars agree that the Incû-Holoinas was some kind of ship built to sail the sky, that it crashed some time prior to the inscription of the Tusk, but only a rare handful concede the claim that it sailed the Void proper, which is to say, between stars. The most compelling rebuttal of this fanciful notion comes from Ajencis himself, who pointed out that the stars would move relative one another were they not uniformly embedded in a sphere hanging a fixed distance about the sky. Since the relative positioning of the stars is identical in star charts inked from different corners of the World, we can be assured that the Incû-Holoinas “came from someplace distant, but not far away.” This, the Great Kyranean concludes, means the Incû-Holoinas must hail from the Outside and not the stars.
This disagreement in origins forms the basis of the two different families of speculation on the Incû-Holoinas, with Nonmen and Far Antique Mannish accounts generally insisting it’s a vessel constructed to cross the Void, and with more recent Mannish accounts agreeing that it’s a vessel constructed to escape damnation in the Outside. Where the former accounts hold the occupants to be “aliens,” monstrosities from another World, the latter accounts claim the Inchoroi were in fact ciphrangi—demons, in effect.
The tremendous advantage of the latter theories turns on their economy, on the fact that they need posit nothing new to explain either the Incû-Holoinas or the Inchoroi. If the Ark were a vessel from another planet, then it had to be constructed by the Inchoroi themselves, when plainly, given its boggling dimensions, only a God could have forged it. Given the evil, rapacious nature of the Inchoroi, the construction is typically attributed to Ajokli. Some even think the Incû-Holoinas comprises two of the fabled Four Horns attributed to the trickster God in the Tusk and elsewhere. Indeed, some Near Antique lays refer to the conspicuously golden vessel as the Halved Crown of Hate.
Though the question of the origin of the Incû-Holoinas can be assumed to be safely settled, vexing questions abide, not the least of which concerns the actual size of the unholy vessel, and, most notoriously, whether the Consult still inhabits it. Though some promise is to be had in the resolution of the former controversy, Mandate arrogance and delusion promises to render the latter debate an endless mire.
So, this is supposed to be an entry from an in-universe encyclopedia, written by a scholar who thinks the Ark came from the Outside, and was maybe constructed by Ajokli.
We are supposed to laugh at this entry since we know better. We know that the Inchoroi actually are aliens, and the Ark was constructed via the Tekne, not by a god.
But we were also supposed to laugh at Fanayal and Harweel when they insisted that Kellhus was a demon! Even though, in the end, they were partly right. More right than most of us suspected.
So maybe this entry is also partly right, in that Ajokli did have something to do with the Ark crashing onto Earwa.
edit: changed topic title to be more accurate, was "Why was Earwa the promised land?'
-
I asked (https://www.reddit.com/r/Fantasy/comments/6r3hba/unholy_consultation_r_scott_bakker_bares_the_soul/dl24077/) Bakker a related question in Reddit AMA:
Are topoi and anarcane grounds connected to Earwa being the Promised World?
This is what he answered (https://www.reddit.com/r/Fantasy/comments/6r3hba/unholy_consultation_r_scott_bakker_bares_the_soul/dl2jnrx/):
Only insofar as they are isolated, surrounded by arcane grounds. The Inchoroi homeworld, for instance, is entirely anarcane.
-
Anagke, The Whore of Fate.
They didn't think anything. The were running around destroying planets for millennia, and finally something went wrong and crashed into Earwa, lo and behold. The promised planet. One that can be shut from the Outside.
I think it took time before they even realized it. But, using brute force soldiers, Inchori, they fucked up. Sorcery decimated almost all of them right of the bat. Took a human and Aurang centuries to raise No-God (not having anyone left who knew how it worked.). Pure, blind, luck. Anagke.
-
Maybe it's not even the "promised world" but just an average world partly connected to the outside through few topoi, and there is in the cosmos total (or almost total) topoi worlds which would be even better to close the outside from the reality.
But I like the idea that Ajokli used the darkness of the Inchoroï to make them crash Ark in Earwa in the attemp to manifest himself into reality (but then Kelmomas was hanging around being invisible to gods and stuff).
-
I, personally, love the idea that Ajokli was the original mover. Welcome aboard ;)
IMO, the Inverse Fire seems like it's a tool fashioned by Ajokli - after all, what does it do if not lead to endless millenium of suffering and bloodshed. Basically this: Ajokli found a way to give the Inchoroi his dred knowledge of the fate that exists for any Inchoroi (or their creators at least) who ends up in his corner of the Outside.
We know for a fact that there are multiple instances of the Outside. What if the IF showed Gilgaol's Outside? Wouldn't it basically be the Inchoroi's ideal afterlife? They'd be celebrated as War Bringers and War Heroes of the Galaxy. Celebrated for eternity for their exceptional prowess at war. Millennia of victory, and eternity of heaven.
Ajokli's little corner of the Outside is just hell. He likes to tortuer endlessly his victims. Not all the Gods are like him. This is why everyone that sees into the IF sees the same thing, because Ajokli treats everyone the same in his afterlife. So it's the perfect goad. It makes living slaves of any who see it for the fear it sets into them, driving them to commit horrible acts of mass atrocity. Killing for the sake of killing - not for the sake of Glory and thus cutting Gilgaol out of the equation (maybe).
It makes sense of so many thing, and is my preferred theory of what the IF is and why the Inchoroi wound up on Earwa. Ajokli using it to set in motion is eventually manifestation into the Real fits so well into the world building.
-
I, personally, love the idea that Ajokli was the original mover. Welcome aboard ;)
IMO, the Inverse Fire seems like it's a tool fashioned by Ajokli - after all, what does it do if not lead to endless millenium of suffering and bloodshed. Basically this: Ajokli found a way to give the Inchoroi his dred knowledge of the fate that exists for any Inchoroi (or their creators at least) who ends up in his corner of the Outside.
We know for a fact that there are multiple instances of the Outside. What if the IF showed Gilgaol's Outside? Wouldn't it basically be the Inchoroi's ideal afterlife? They'd be celebrated as War Bringers and War Heroes of the Galaxy. Celebrated for eternity for their exceptional prowess at war. Millennia of victory, and eternity of heaven.
Ajokli's little corner of the Outside is just hell. He likes to tortuer endlessly his victims. Not all the Gods are like him. This is why everyone that sees into the IF sees the same thing, because Ajokli treats everyone the same in his afterlife. So it's the perfect goad. It makes living slaves of any who see it for the fear it sets into them, driving them to commit horrible acts of mass atrocity. Killing for the sake of killing - not for the sake of Glory and thus cutting Gilgaol out of the equation (maybe).
It makes sense of so many thing, and is my preferred theory of what the IF is and why the Inchoroi wound up on Earwa. Ajokli using it to set in motion is eventually manifestation into the Real fits so well into the world building.
The Inverse fire shows a person's fate in the Outside, not different facets of it. Also, Ajokli cannot see Golgotterath/the Ark, he could only intuit something was there because of the extremely deep topos it represented ("some have always smelled your absence").
-
Maybe it's not even the "promised world" but just an average world partly connected to the outside through few topoi, and there is in the cosmos total (or almost total) topoi worlds which would be even better to close the outside from the reality.
This isn't exactly correct. Even though topoi do connect to the Outside, so does every individual souls. There are many instances that prove this, but being able to perform the Diamos is enough.
-
The Inverse fire shows a person's fate in the Outside, not different facets of it.
According too ... the Inchoroi? Who then tell everyone that looks at it what its showing?
I'm not saying you have to believe me, but personally I think that makes for a too convenient explanation.
I'll point out that the Inchoroi's Creators where a teknology based race that just happened to stumble into the magical world of the outside just one single time ... it just happened to goad them into their timeless war against the universe ... which just happens to be exactly what Ajokli wants/needs to harvest more and more souls and eventually leads to his ultimate goal to manifest into the Real.
So yeah, the books say that its not Ajokli's tool, I agree with that. Just seems unlikely.
Also, Ajokli cannot see Golgotterath/the Ark, he could only intuit something was there because of the extremely deep topos it represented ("some have always smelled your absence").
And?
Ajokli can see the whole universe, as with the other Gods, thus why the IF even worked when it wasn't on Earwa and it showed Alien creatures that they had souls and were somehow connected to the Gods. That the Gods couldn't see the place were the Ark occupied could have been for any number of reasons. None of which likely apply to the Inchoroi and their Creators en masse.
Its basically the same story as the Tusk the Inchoroi gave to Man so that they'd kill the Nonmen. Earwa (and/or the TSA story) is nothing if not cyclic, Ajokli giving the IF to the Inchoroi to convince them to do his bidding fits into they cycle perfectly.
There's really no logical explanation for the IF existence other than it being a gift from Ajokli. IMO.
-
“The Inverse Fire is naught but a window into my House,” the Dark God-Emperor said.
TUC, Chapter 18
Seems pretty straightforward to me
-
“The Inverse Fire is naught but a window into my House,” the Dark God-Emperor said.
TUC, Chapter 18
Seems pretty straightforward to me
Is that a real quote? Seriously, I can't say I remember that, but man does that fit into my headcannon :). Thank you!
-
The Inverse fire shows a person's fate in the Outside, not different facets of it.
According too ... the Inchoroi? Who then tell everyone that looks at it what its showing?
And according to Kellhus too, but I know mentioning this is futile since some sort of unreliable narrator is going to get invoked here...
I'll point out that the Inchoroi's Creators where a teknology based race that just happened to stumble into the magical world of the outside just one single time ... it just happened to goad them into their timeless war against the universe ... which just happens to be exactly what Ajokli wants/needs to harvest more and more souls and eventually leads to his ultimate goal to manifest into the Real.
This is not the narrative presented in the books though. Their objective is to shut off the Outside, which I'm pretty sure Ajokli wouldn't be down with.
Ajokli can see the whole universe, as with the other Gods, thus why the IF even worked when it wasn't on Earwa and it showed Alien creatures that they had souls and were somehow connected to the Gods. That the Gods couldn't see the place were the Ark occupied could have been for any number of reasons. None of which likely apply to the Inchoroi and their Creators en masse.
There's some deeper causal stuff going on here I don't fully understand either. Remember that the goal of the Inchoroi is to unleash the No-God. This God of the real presumably carries causal agency. The Gods cannot see the meaning of the Ark, they cannot see it's purpose. The way I see it, Ajokli sensed something was wrong, and basically rolled the dice with realities he could not see in an attempt to break into World, which failed due to the No-God.
There's really no logical explanation for the IF existence other than it being a gift from Ajokli. IMO.
Well, there's the canon explanation which says that it's a machine that links your frame of reference to your fate in the Outside used to kindle the Inchoroi's zeal in shutting off the Outside.
“The Inverse Fire is naught but a window into my House,” the Dark God-Emperor said.
TUC, Chapter 18
Seems pretty straightforward to me
You're interpreting a literal statement about the Inverse Fire being a window into Hell as something else.
-
unreliable narrator is going to get invoked here
Yeah I know, its a problem, doubly so with the IF given its nature, triply(?) given what I'm claiming lol.
This is not the narrative presented in the books though.
Right. I'm claiming the Inchoroi don't know anything. Which is pretty much true. They are basically skin-spies as far as their knowledge of metaphysics and mission go. Just another weapon race.
I'm pretty sure Ajokli wouldn't be down with.
I'm not so sure about that. According to Ajokli, the Outside is infinite and cannot be shut (obviously wrong), so what the Inchoroi think they are doing is pretty irrelevant (to Ajokli).
What matters is what the IF makes them do. Its the method they are using that's important, and that method gets him trillions of more souls with their actions, as opposed to none with inaction.
Basically makes unwitting servants of whoever looks into it. Win-win for Ajokli.
goal of the Inchoroi is to unleash the No-God. ...
As above.
Just as sure as Yatwer is that both her WLWs are indomitable, so too is Ajokli sure there can be no ill consequences of handing over knowledge of the outside to the Inchoroi.
The Gods' persepective is a strange thing to interpret. Ajokli, post giving of the IF (how Anti-Promethean btw, another point for this theory :P ) Ajokli could have then invented a way to get into the world prior to it being shut. Again, confusing as hell.
Well, there's the canon explanation which says that it's a machine that links your frame of reference to your fate in the Outside used to kindle the Inchoroi's zeal in shutting off the Outside.
And the thing that most benefits from this reaction is Ajokli. I'm not claiming the cannon is wholesale wrong, just that there is something behind it.
“The Inverse Fire is naught but a window into my House,” the Dark God-Emperor said.
TUC, Chapter 18
Seems pretty straightforward to me
You're interpreting a literal statement about the Inverse Fire being a window into Hell as something else.
What is Hell?
It says 'my house'...
The literal interpretation here is that "my house" is Ajokli's corner of the Outside. (Literally: Ajokli's House).
I think to me the less literal interpretation would be to assume that Ajokli was using "my house" to mean "not my house". And then to interpret the assumed translation of "not my house" to mean Hell(?), and further assume that Hell means everything in the Outside. I'm exaggerating a bit, but still, it seems more literal to take it to mean what it says...
Clearly I don't know the context of the quote (don't recognize it at all) but I think Ajokli would be pretty well aware of his standing in the Outside and wouldn't be using those words so metaphorically.
I'm going to have to look it up later and see what's actually going on.
-
I'm not so sure about that. According to Ajokli, the Outside is infinite and cannot be shut (obviously wrong), so what the Inchoroi think they are doing is pretty irrelevant (to Ajokli).
What matters is what the IF makes them do. Its the method they are using that's important, and that method gets him trillions of more souls with their actions, as opposed to none with inaction.
But this is the crux, Ajokli cannot motivate a mission he cannot see.
It says 'my house'...
Ajokli's house is hell.
-
I'm not so sure about that. According to Ajokli, the Outside is infinite and cannot be shut (obviously wrong), so what the Inchoroi think they are doing is pretty irrelevant (to Ajokli).
What matters is what the IF makes them do. Its the method they are using that's important, and that method gets him trillions of more souls with their actions, as opposed to none with inaction.
But this is the crux, Ajokli cannot motivate a mission he cannot see.
I'm saying his goal was getting more souls, which the IF does perfectly.
It says 'my house'...
Ajokli's house is hell.
Right. So the IF just happens to show Ajokli's outside, not the outside of all the other Gods.
Far, far too convenient to be even slightly plausible for TSA, imo. THough I realize we've reached an impasse here - hopefully someone else can help us out :)
-
I'm saying his goal was getting more souls, which the IF does perfectly.
So in order to get more souls, he created a device which helped spur a mission he could not see passing through entire realities he was blind to?
Right. So the IF just happens to show Ajokli's outside, not the outside of all the other Gods.
see
The Inverse Fire—Xir’kirimakra (Cûno-Cincûlic). Subparticular intentional field machine linking individual observational frames of reference to their eternal fate in the Outside. Given that the Gods are both jealous and connoisseurs, most souls peering into the Inverse Fire discover the fact of their eternal damnation, an experience so profound as to drive all who witness it into the horrifying embrace of the Consult. This was what rendered Mekeritrig an inevitable consequence of Cet’ingira’s survival, and why Apocalypse has always clustered as bees about this perpetually disastrous device
THough I realize we've reached an impasse here - hopefully someone else can help us out
It's actually funny how often this happens. MSJ not being willing to relinquish of the e-sports thing or his insistence that I be killed because he blended together mine and your arguments in that thread, and being unwilling to change his mind or read the words in any other way. Likewise, you have a hard time letting go of wrong fan theories, it might take Bakker himself (preferably in person to avoid the unrealible narrator thing that has been invoked by a couple of people here in the past) to convince you otherwise ;)
Now I wonder, where's my blind spot that everybody else can see except myself?
-
I'm not so sure about that. According to Ajokli, the Outside is infinite and cannot be shut (obviously wrong), so what the Inchoroi think they are doing is pretty irrelevant (to Ajokli).
What matters is what the IF makes them do. Its the method they are using that's important, and that method gets him trillions of more souls with their actions, as opposed to none with inaction.
But this is the crux, Ajokli cannot motivate a mission he cannot see.
I'm saying his goal was getting more souls, which the IF does perfectly.
It says 'my house'...
Ajokli's house is hell.
Right. So the IF just happens to show Ajokli's outside, not the outside of all the other Gods.
Far, far too convenient to be even slightly plausible for TSA, imo. THough I realize we've reached an impasse here - hopefully someone else can help us out :)
I don't read it like that. The IF show you your own fate. So when Kellhus/Ajokli watch it, of course he says "Woooh neat, it's home!".
And we know most of people watching it aren't especially nice people, so it make sens they see their damnation (plus, it look like everyone except 2 or 3 characters in Earwa are damned).
I guess if Mimara watched it, she would see heaven.
-
What does 'not nice' have to do with anything? There are lots of gods with lots of different afterlives. I would expect, for example, a masterful warloard to see a heaven equivalent 'Valhalla' type afterlife with Gilgaol, but the worst kind of 'Hell' if taken by Yatwer, and everyone regardless of who they are would see 'Hell' if seeing Ajokli.
The idea that every single lifeform that has seen the IF through millennia sees the exact same afterlife, and that it just happens to be Ajokli's, is just silly to assume that its completely coincidental.
I'd expect Mimara to see the same thing as everyone else - because its simply a window into Ajokli's House. If Mimara was taken to Ajokli's Outside, she'd be in hell, but I presume another god (or The God?) would take her before that.
We know the outside is complex. Its filled with beings that see all time, that literally make their own realities within their domain. They compete with eachother for souls, and the rules are different depending on where one ends up (Heaven for a Yatwer aligned soul would be in Hell if Gilgaol took them). We know that there is Oblivion, and the Ciphrang factor in there somewhere. That the IF shows only one view of the Outside, the same view, to every single entity that sees it, points rather plainly to it being something other than what the Inchoroi believe it to be.
-
We only have the words of damned people watching it AFAIK (some nonmen, Kellhus/Ajokli, sorcerers, Inchorois), and the glossary which is not 100% trustable. Maybe not all the prisoners saw hell.
-
We only have the words of damned people watching it AFAIK (some nonmen, Kellhus/Ajokli, sorcerers, Inchorois), and the glossary which is not 100% trustable. Maybe not all the prisoners saw hell.
Certainly we've only heard recounting of hell - reinforced by the surprise of everyone in the Golden Room when Kellhus doesn't see himself tortured, though he's still in the same place as everyone else.
Causality is another issue here, since we're talking about the Outside. Looking into the IF might simply tie your fate to Ajokli's Outside. Chicken and egg scenario though so I'll leave that path alone.
-
Wait & see then :p ! Maybe Bakker will provide an answer in the next books.
-
Wait & see then :p ! Maybe Bakker will provide an answer in the next books.
lol. No, I am long since beyond that particular horizon of hope. I'm satisfied with my nonsense - its internally consistent and matches my headcannon.
The only disappointment comes from not being able to bring more into my tribe ;) , but that's OK because you guys let me stick around anyway. I can yet work on sharpening the edges of my blunt persuasive armaments.
-
Would be nice if some of the lurkers weighed in on this! Duskweaver, H, Bolivar, Red, merchant, mostly.harmless, MisterGuyMan, Woden, Walter, Tyrin, Nil Sertrax, Anwurat, Rot, James, CondYoke, jurble, Hiro, Kamakazikitteh, Hoary, Walter, TheCulminatingApe, Callan S., Wolfdrop, Wiseblood, Ciogli, Seomus, codebread, Bhaal, obstinate, Baztek, Likaro, Punkhazard, locke, fecklessfool, Triskele, Dunkelheit, spacemost and yeah, you too Cüréthañ ... WHAT IS THE INVERSE FIRE? Complete write up on your take on the metaphysical Earwa is requested.
Cû'jara-Cinmoi - the most unholy of The Consult, are welcome to join this discussion.
-
It's actually funny how often this happens. MSJ not being willing to relinquish of the e-sports thing or his insistence that I be killed because he blended together mine and your arguments in that thread, and being unwilling to change his mind or read the words in any other way. Likewise, you have a hard time letting go of wrong fan theories,
Don't throw me into your fights I want no part of. Blindspots, pfft! Speakk for yourself! ;)
-
The IF is a window into hell, used as a goad by the progenitors. They found it somehow, or rather created it. Its what started their mission to decimate worlds til finding the promise land. Its shows your hell, not Ajokli's.
-
What does 'not nice' have to do with anything? There are lots of gods with lots of different afterlives. I would expect, for example, a masterful warloard to see a heaven equivalent 'Valhalla' type afterlife with Gilgaol, but the worst kind of 'Hell' if taken by Yatwer, and everyone regardless of who they are would see 'Hell' if seeing Ajokli.
The idea that every single lifeform that has seen the IF through millennia sees the exact same afterlife, and that it just happens to be Ajokli's, is just silly to assume that its completely coincidental.
I'd expect Mimara to see the same thing as everyone else - because its simply a window into Ajokli's House. If Mimara was taken to Ajokli's Outside, she'd be in hell, but I presume another god (or The God?) would take her before that.
We know the outside is complex. Its filled with beings that see all time, that literally make their own realities within their domain. They compete with eachother for souls, and the rules are different depending on where one ends up (Heaven for a Yatwer aligned soul would be in Hell if Gilgaol took them). We know that there is Oblivion, and the Ciphrang factor in there somewhere. That the IF shows only one view of the Outside, the same view, to every single entity that sees it, points rather plainly to it being something other than what the Inchoroi believe it to be.
That's not exactly how it works though. You're either damned or not, with the vast majority of people being damned. If a particular God likes you, you get into their heaven, but otherwise you're thrown into the pit. Gilgaöl would not take a soul aligned for Yatwer, he only takes the best of the best of bloodthirsty, noble warriors. Mimara would most likely see herself saved somehow, although we cannot rule out that the very act of gazing into the Inverse Fire brings damnation in itself.
-
The IF is a window into hell
This is magic. How, in Earwaverse, can a mundance object made by non-magi without the knowledge or ability to use magic, make something that is so very obviously Magical?
, used as a goad by the progenitors.
It goaded the progenitors as well. So, who is doing the goading. Ajokli is the only entity that makes sense.
They found it somehow, or rather created it.
Again, magic. A race of entities that didn't know of, or believe in, an afterlife, or God, or the Outside, somehow made a mundane object, without magic, that let them open up a window into an entire metaphysical reality?
That's a lot of coincidences to ignore.
Its what started their mission to decimate worlds til finding the promise land. Its shows your hell, not Ajokli's.
We don't know what it shows other than its consistent for literally everything that looks into it.
We know for sure that the Outside is more complex than "Oh look everyone is damned and Ajokli is the ruler of everything!"
The only logical explanation is that what people/things think the IF is showing, (which happens to be what the Inchoroi tell them) is simply inaccurate.
The IF has suspiciously Diamotic origins akin to Kellhus's journey to Ajokli's Hell.
It's also suspiciously similar to Kellhus' Seeing Fire thing.
I don't see how its possible that the proginators made a device so strangely similar to the magic that we see in Earwa.
To me, in Earwa there's a pretty distinct line between mundane and magical - or physical and metaphysical. You're either dealing with Souls and Gods, or you're dealing with people and their works. I see no room for something that is purely tekne making something that interacts with the magical, and no way for the proginators to have created such a thing. It requires intervention directly from Ajokli or some other metaphysical entity to exist.
That's not exactly how it works though. You're either damned or not, with the vast majority of people being damned.
Granted, that appears to be the case, but we don't know what being damned is, or what it means, or how it works with all the variety of movers in the Outside.
If a particular God likes you, you get into their heaven,
Gilgaol reached down and saved at least 1 person in TUC.
But Mimara saw nothing but damned people when walking through the camp.
So what does that mean? It means we don't know what damnation is. The saved gentleman would surely have been an obvious spot of Holy Light amidst the turely damned - but none was apparent.
How can you be damned and saved? Because we don't know how either works. So then what does the IF even show us? It shows us exactly what Ajokli says: it shows a person's fate in his house. Quite simply, its a tool for Ajokli.
but otherwise you're thrown into the pit. Gilgaöl would not take a soul aligned for Yatwer, he only takes the best of the best of bloodthirsty, noble warriors.
All the Gods hunger. I imagine they don't just take the souls they want to reward with some kind of Heaven. They need souls to eat and torture as well.
Mimara would most likely see herself saved somehow, although we cannot rule out that the very act of gazing into the Inverse Fire brings damnation in itself.
Nothing to really go for or against what Mimara would see. IMO, she tends to see what she wants - but that's another discussion.
-
Again, magic. A race of entities that didn't know of, or believe in, an afterlife, or God, or the Outside, somehow made a mundane object, without magic, that let them open up a window into an entire metaphysical reality?
Why would they not know about it? They had time to plumb the metaphysics of the universe. A fundamental premise of the World in which this story takes place is that Gods and souls are demonstrably real.
The only logical explanation is that what people/things think the IF is showing, (which happens to be what the Inchoroi tell them) is simply inaccurate.
That's not a logical explanation lol
I see no room for something that is purely tekne making something that interacts with the magical, and no way for the proginators to have created such a thing
What about the No-God then, or is a sarcophago swirling around inside a big ass tornado somehow not "magic"?
Granted, that appears to be the case, but we don't know what being damned is, or what it means, or how it works with all the variety of movers in the Outside.
If it appears to be the case because that's what the story presents it as, it probably is the case though.
So what does that mean? It means we don't know what damnation is. The saved gentleman would surely have been an obvious spot of Holy Light amidst the turely damned - but none was apparent.
Maybe she just didn't gaze upon him with the Judging Eye, or maybe he was only saved at the last moment, Gilgaöl deciding he wanted him anyway despite the whole Sranc-meat fuelled rape feast.
-
Again, magic. A race of entities that didn't know of, or believe in, an afterlife, or God, or the Outside, somehow made a mundane object, without magic, that let them open up a window into an entire metaphysical reality?
That's a lot of coincidences to ignore.
Wait, wait. The Progenitors didn't know anything of magic, since (it seems that) it is plausible that the rest of the Universe, sans Eärwa is Anarcane ground. They did, somehow, manage to figure out that there is an Outside and that souls are real, or at least whatever it is happens to be real enough to damn you for eternity. I don't follow why you presume that the Outside is magic. It's as real as the Inside, it just isn't tangible in the same way. No different than how Space-Time is as real as matter, but not interfacable in the same manner. The Inverse Fire is an Tekne artifact that allows an interface between a given observer and the substrate that is the Outside (or perhaps through the substrate that is the Outside).
Take the Glossary's explanation: "Subparticular intentional field machine linking individual observational frames of reference to their eternal fate in the Outside." I don't see why this being a machine is less believable that the bioengineering, the Ark itself, the Sarcophagus, faster than light travel, Skin-Spies or anything else Tekne made and needs to be magic.
For all we know, the Inverse Fire was the pinnacle of Progenitor technology, and we all know that sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
-
Wilshire, but what we have in text is completely different then the theories your offering, huh, one to take huh.
Its explained the progenitors kept advancing til the wanted to reach the absolute or what have you. Through they're inventions the created the IF. They decided to use it as a goad for the weapons races. The progenitors simply trying to save their souls, is all.
All in all, its not Ajokli's. You keep bringing up magic when the progenitors lived on a planet with no such thing. The IF came through means of technology.
-
All in all, its not Ajokli's. You keep bringing up magic when the progenitors lived on a planet with no such thing. The IF came through means of technology.
Its impossible for it to be technology. Makes no sense. Its the same reason as to why the folks over at the LHC aren't going to accidentally open up a portal into the afterlife IRL - you don't suddenly make meaning in a meaningless world.
Again, magic. A race of entities that didn't know of, or believe in, an afterlife, or God, or the Outside, somehow made a mundane object, without magic, that let them open up a window into an entire metaphysical reality?
That's a lot of coincidences to ignore.
They did, somehow, manage to figure out that there is an Outside and that souls are real, or at least whatever it is happens to be real enough to damn you for eternity. I don't follow why you presume that the Outside is magic.
First, I'm using 'magic' to mean non-mundane. Lets not get bogged down here. I think we're all aware that in Earwa magic is real, so is the outside and the inside, the gods. Come now, lets get beyond semantics.
My premise is that you can't access the Outside/Magic/Souls or deduce them with mundane means - it doesn't fit into the worldbuilding in any way.
Its like this, look at the Dunyain. For all their brilliance, they don't know about the Outside, gods, magic, etc. and they live in a meaningful world. They can never deduce it from their mundane learning/teaching because its not possible. The proginators are basically more advanced Dunyain but so much farther away from a meaningful world. There's just not path to seeing that Gods and Magic are real with teknology and math - if there was, the Dunyain would have figured it out.
Ergo, you can't make something from teknology that lets you discover the Outside, Gods, Magic, etc.
Since its impossible, something needed to happen to make it possible. I assume that no one from Earwa took a trip over to Proginatoria to tell them about our-lord-and-savior-the-latter-prophet. That leaves the Gods - who can see all time for all of the universe and manifest both directly and indirectly in the real world - interceding in some way to allow an otherwise mundane species to discover their souls.
A simple whisper in the back of a mind would be all it took.
A 'mad' man, who had a bit of the outside leak in.
A facility unknowingly built on, or accidentally creating, a topos sufficiently deep enough for a whisper to get through.
Many paths available, none of which break all the rules we know of like we have to is we assume that the IF is truly pure tekne.
-
All in all, its not Ajokli's. You keep bringing up magic when the progenitors lived on a planet with no such thing. The IF came through means of technology.
Yeah, I have a hard time buying "Ajokli all the way down" sort-of theories.
We don't have any idea how the Progenitors happened upon the revelation that the Outside (and so, what appears to be a soul) was real and deterministic. We could imagine though, that through some quantum mechanical investigation or something similar, it was discovered that there was "more" to the universe. "Subparticular," in the Inverse Fire's description, could well mean sub-atomic, sub-any particles, which places the Inverse Fire below that of matter. This could well be what the Outside actually is, the substrate by which all subsequent substrates are substantiated out of.
I am recalling this opening quote from TTT, Chapter 10:
"Souls can no more see the origins of their thought than they can see the backs of their heads or the insides of their entrails. And since souls cannot differentiate what they cannot see, there is a peculiar sense in which the soul cannot self-differentiate. So it is always, in a peculiar sense, the same time when they think, the same place where they think, and the same individual who does the thinking. Like tipping a spiral on its side until only a circle can be seen, the passage of moments always remains now, the carnival of spaces always sojourns here, and the succession of people always becomes me. The truth is, if the soul could apprehend itself the way it apprehended the world—if it could apprehend its origins—it would see that there is no now, there is no here, and there is no me. In other words, it would realize that just as there is no circle, there is no soul."
So, if we accept it's conclusion, that there is no soul, then we must go back to Memgowa's (which, admittedly could be wrong) that there is no now, here or me. In support of this, we do anecdotally know that the Outside is apart from time, in some way, it also is apart from the spatial map of the world (and maybe the Universe), and in the Outside identity is shorn away.
I've managed to convince myself, here, that the Inverse Fire could have given them view of Ajokli's Hell, and so Ajokli some view of them, but I'm not convinced that it is probable that it was Ajokli that spurred the whole thing on. The Progenitors knew of damnation and knew of it's implications. I don't see why we need another agent.
Back to the original question of this thread (I think) was, how did the Inchoroi know that Eärwa was the Promised World. Well, unforunately, we have no idea. But, considering that they reduced some large number of worlds to try to find out means that there would seem to be two options. If we initially presume that the Inchoroi didn't know exactly what to look for, because, if they did, they would not have needed to reduce each world, just simply look for the signs. Ergo, it is plausible that they didn't know what to look for until they in fact found it. This means that, somehow, Eärwa appeared (in whatever fashion) differently and so they knew. In this case, it would seem that Ark failed because it had accomplished what it was intended to, but this is a poor explanation, because it had lasted that long and still (presumably) had an important function, why waste it?
There is also the possibility that they didn't know, pre-Fall. In fact, they still didn't know post-Fall. But, the reason Ark failed was exactly because Eärwa was the Promised World. That is, somehow, whatever powered it, or sustained it, or allowed it to "live" was not able to function on Eärwa. This would explain why it crashed without intentionality. Nothing tells us that they knew that Eärwa was the Promised World pre-Fall. Cleric, a la Wutteät, offers us the idea that Ark was already failing pre-Fall: "Only to arrive here broken and exhausted!" Cleric cried. "YES—YES!" Later, Aurang recalls: "He remembered their hallowed vessel faltering upon the shoals of the Promised World[.]"
So, most plausibly, Ark was already failing, for some other reason. This last Fall seems to have been what killed it. Now, we can go back and presume that in it's weakened state, perhaps some aspect of Eärwa is what killed it, or we can presume that it just so happened that it happened there. I don't think the Inchoroi knew though pre-Fall and that calling Eärwa "The Promised World" is a post-hoc rationalization.
-
Its like this, look at the Dunyain. For all their brilliance, they don't know about the Outside, gods, magic, etc. and they live in a meaningful world. They can never deduce it from their mundane learning/teaching because its not possible. The proginators are basically more advanced Dunyain but so much farther away from a meaningful world. There's just not path to seeing that Gods and Magic are real with teknology and math - if there was, the Dunyain would have figured it out.
Ergo, you can't make something from teknology that lets you discover the Outside, Gods, Magic, etc.
I stridently disagree with this. While I appreciate the logical approach, I think there are several flawed presumptions here that lead to a false conclusion.
Firstly, that the Dûnyain could not have deduced the Outside. We simply do not know this. In fact, the Dûnyain, were they not forced into ignorance, probably could have deduced it fairly easily. Look how quickly Koringhus figures out all sorts of stuff once outside "the bubble." We have no idea how long the Progenitors spent on the question. We have no idea what they encountered to know the question to ask. We have no idea how the Dûnyain would answer such a question in the same position.
Second, that there is no way to deduce the Outside via mundane means. Again, this presupposes we know the nature of the Outside, which we absolutely do not. In fact, the best clue might be the Inverse Fire itself, because if the description in the Glossary is accurate, it is a technological device that seems to reveal at least part of the fundamental nature of the Universe.
Third, that a mundane means would have already been discovered by the Dûnyain, which again, presupposes they had the available technology, which, they certainly did not. The Progenitors, while similar to the Dûnyain, were vastly more technologically advanced, which really throws out the idea that anything the Progenitors did with technology could be reproduced by the Dûnyain. The Dûnyain didn't discern space-flight, Grafts, soggomant, laser weaponry, and so on. Clearly, the Progenitors were capable of more and so I find it unbelievable to presume that something is impossible because the Dûnyain didn't do it.
-
Look how quickly Koringhus figures out all sorts of stuff once outside "the bubble."
To me, this is the crux, and exactly my point. Look how easy it was once it was shown by an entity from the Outside. He deduces it only once he has actually seen TJE.
Trivial to deduce once its known, just like all things to the Dunyain, but impossible until then.
Yeah I made some jumps in logic, but its internally consistent with the worldbuilding. Unlike the idea that the IF is tekne. The explanation that actually works using the principles we're aware of makes more sense to me.
-
My premise is that you can't access the Outside/Magic/Souls or deduce them with mundane means - it doesn't fit into the worldbuilding in any way.
I completely disagree. There seems to be a gap in your logic, as evidenced by this quote:
I think we're all aware that in Earwa magic is real, so is the outside and the inside, the gods.
As you stated, the Outside is objectively real in Earwa. Which means it's intrinsically connected to the Inside just as any other part of the Universe is intrinsically connected to every other part. They all exist in the same construct governed by the same laws. But it's even clearer in this case, since the Outside and the Inside are confirmed to interact directly. Even in your presented theory Ajokli needed to reach the Progenitors. And in the books the stated interaction is damnation heaped upon their souls.
In this sense, the Outside is home to the divine, the divine being a form of interaction where intent is be all and end all of action. Sorcery is a form of interaction related to the Outside closely, since it has a timeless aspect that allows what comes after to determine what comes before. Tekne is related more to the Inside, preserving causality more strictly, but the Inside is connected to the Outside, and so is Tekne.
And then there is also the question of anarcane grounds. They are referred to as the opposite of topoi, the places where the Outside "leaks in". Anarcane grounds stop sorcery, and sorcery is closely related to the Outside. Yes, Chorae can also stop sorcery, but by way of sorcery, being more of a short-circuit than a complete block. Anarcane grounds are naturally occurring, unlike sorcery. Would anarcane grounds stop the divine? Would they be on the opposite end of the Outside-Inside scale, hindering the Gods?
Even if it is so, though, the Gods would still exist, which is precisely my point. The connection to the Outside is there, even if it's at its weakest. The Outside is part of the same construct still.
-
Even if it is so, though, the Gods would still exist, which is precisely my point. The connection to the Outside is there, even if it's at its weakest. The Outside is part of the same construct still.
This is why I'm correct though. The Gods do have influence everywhere, so they are able to reach out to the proginators and show them the way to the Outside. But absent divine intervention, there is nothing the proginators, or the dunyain, could deduce about a world they can't see and don't believe in.
Reall, until the LHC opens up a portal to heaven, there's just no way to convince me that a race of beings who think they live in a meaningless world can find meaning via mundane principles.
-
This is why I'm correct though. The Gods do have influence everywhere, so they are able to reach out to the proginators and show them the way to the Outside. But absent divine intervention, there is nothing the proginators, or the dunyain, could deduce about a world they can't see and don't believe in.
The connection works both ways. This is the gap that I see in your logic.
-
The connection works both ways. This is the gap that I see in your logic.
To me its more a matter of the unlikelihood of a unique event.
It works better for me to have the things in Earwa work the way they work - rather than having one off events that are otherwise never seen before or since.
It also seems that the Gods are behind most things - Kellhus, the TJE, Magic, and even the nature of time itself. That the Gods are not involved in the IF, and that the tekne alone was able to manipulate the world in a way that is identical to magic, doesn't fit. The Gods, specifically
Ajokli, being behind it fits well into most of the greater themes of TSA as well: the cyclic nature of time/history, manipulation behind the scenes, creating your own destruction, etc. That it was a fluke one off tekne creation doesn't add anything to the story or fit into the bigger picture in quite the same way.
Appreciate the discussion guys, thanks for humoring me :)
-
To me its more a matter of the unlikelihood of a unique event.
There is a weakness in this argument, namely the No-God. A creation of Tekne that has a very real effect on the Outside and divine agencies.
-
This is why I'm correct though. The Gods do have influence everywhere, so they are able to reach out to the proginators and show them the way to the Outside. But absent divine intervention, there is nothing the proginators, or the dunyain, could deduce about a world they can't see and don't believe in.
Reall, until the LHC opens up a portal to heaven, there's just no way to convince me that a race of beings who think they live in a meaningless world can find meaning via mundane principles.
Isn't this circular logic though? You begin with the presumption that only magic can perceive the Outside, ergo, since the Progenitors made the Inverse Fire, they had magic. But no where do we know how the fundamental structure of the Eärwan universe works, or can be revealed, and our own provides no real basis of comparison. We have no idea what pinnacle Tekne could discern, because even Ark's (and so the Inchoroi's) brand of Tekne is necessarily derivative.
I think it is a disservice to say that since we don't understand how it is possible to achieve it technologically, when we don't understand the level of technology. That would be akin to someone from 500 B.C. saying that nuclear power must be magic. Everything that the Progenitors seemed to make was from the Tekne, so what is more likely, that the Inverse Fire is like the rest, or that the Inverse Fire is magic?
-
I don't see why the Progenitors couldn't find the outside without magic.
While they are on anarcane ground, it seems they still managed to notice that something was amiss with their logic. The absolute was eluding them (as for the Dunyain) even with all their tekne after who knows how many centuries.
I think it make sens that they would investigate the question and consider the possibility of a meaningful world.
And even if they don't have access to magic, they still have access to at least one door to the outside : themselve. Maybe the IF is some kind of device powered by progenitors brains and doing Wibbly Wobbly Souley Wimey stuff that open a window to the outside.
That being said, I like the idea that Ajokli made the ARK crash, leading to the events on Earwa, leading to Cnaïur running naked into the srancs, leading to Ajokli own birth! Classic example of self-made god ^^ !
-
To me its more a matter of the unlikelihood of a unique event.
There is a weakness in this argument, namely the No-God. A creation of Tekne that has a very real effect on the Outside and divine agencies.
Right. Again, to my favor - it only works on Earwa with the help of magic. :) . No matter how deep they dug, they found only what they expected until Earwa. The only exception is the IF, so rather than it being an exception, its part of a rule, as described above.
Isn't this circular logic though? You begin with the presumption that only magic can perceive the Outside, ergo, since the Progenitors made the Inverse Fire, they had magic.
No that's your conclusion shoehorned into my statement. I'm saying they didn't have magic and the only reason they could build the IF was because Ajokli (or any other Outside agency). Ajokli provided the magic, not the progenitors.
But no where do we know how the fundamental structure of the Eärwan universe works, or can be revealed, and our own provides no real basis of comparison. We have no idea what pinnacle Tekne could discern, because even Ark's (and so the Inchoroi's) brand of Tekne is necessarily derivative.
We have only what's provided, yes.
What's provided doesn't allow for mundane reasoning to unlock the secrets of the magical.
I think it is a disservice to say that since we don't understand how it is possible to achieve it technologically, when we don't understand the level of technology.
I'm not talking about the real world.
The IF acts and works exactly like a lot of magic we see, so its likely some kind of magic (also it doesn't act like any other mundane thing, same conclusion).
Tekne doing magic doesn't fit, so they needed something with magic to help out.
"Outside' intervention seems most likely.
IF as a concept then must have come from Outside.
Ajokli is the most likely prospect and had the most to gain from its creation and use.
-
Right. Again, to my favor - it only works on Earwa with the help of magic. :) . No matter how deep they dug, they found only what they expected until Earwa.
But that's not only conjecture, it's conjecture that straight up contradicts the text. There is utterly no evidence that the No-God is supported by magic. If anything, there is evidence to the contrary, now that the eleven Chorae are removed from the Carapace. And even disregarding that, the mysteries of the Tekne were always cited as the driving force behind the creation of the No-God.
Secondly, we also have the Grafting that bestowed sorcery upon Aurang and Aurax. In total, there were seven Inchoroi that survived that process, if memory serves.
-
Right. Again, to my favor - it only works on Earwa with the help of magic. :) . No matter how deep they dug, they found only what they expected until Earwa.
But that's not only conjecture
Everything is conjecture ;p;
, it's conjecture that straight up contradicts the text. There is utterly no evidence that the No-God is supported by magic.
Other than what i pointed out you mean, which is the fact that it only works on Earwa, which just happens to be the only place in the universe that uses magic, and that the Inchoroi couldn't get it working until they had a brilliant Magi working for them.
Conjecture? Sure. But its pretty linear thinking. No logical leaps there at all.
If anything, there is evidence to the contrary, now that the eleven Chorae are removed from the Carapace.
I'd argue that makes magic more likely, not less, considering that removing chorae means more magic can be used - whereas the use of chorae are a special kind of negative-magic that one might argue doesn't count. But irrelevant since the chorae are removed.
And even disregarding that, the mysteries of the Tekne were always cited as the driving force between the creation of the No-God.
Yup. Same as everything above. So strange that despite all their knoweldge they needed bronze-age human to help them figure out how FTL-space-age-tech works.
Seems far more likely he was contributing magical knowledge.
Secondly, we also have the Grafting that bestowed sorcery upon Aurang and Aurax. In total, there were seven Inchoroi that survived that process, if memory serves.
I assume grafting works on mundane knowledge of fancy genetic engineering. Noteworthy that no matter how smart, and born with the ability to see the onta, Kellhus was unable to do sorcery until taught.
To me, genetic manipulation and augmented sensory inputs via technology is mundane in a way that creating energy and matter from nothing and manipulating the world with thoughts is strictly magical. Like being able to change your eyes so that you can see infrared light (mundane) - this doesn't let you control the heat and reverse entropy with your thoughts (magic).
I'd say that the IF is doing magic by opening a window into the outside (in the manner which Kellhus Seeing Fire thing was magical). Its not as if those on Earwa, without using diamotic sorcery, can see into the Outside - though plenty of non-schoolmen can see the Onta. This is confusing territory, as in Earwa there is a fine line between what is physical and what is metaphysical, but I think this explanation is at least internally consistent.
-
There is a weakness in this argument, namely the No-God. A creation of Tekne that has a very real effect on the Outside and divine agencies.
Right. Again, to my favor - it only works on Earwa with the help of magic. :) . No matter how deep they dug, they found only what they expected until Earwa. The only exception is the IF, so rather than it being an exception, its part of a rule, as described above.
But they actually expected the opposite. They knew it wouldn't work everywhere. They knew they needed to find a place where the exception was the rule. Just because they, lets say, used highly advanced Quantum Mechanical understanding to realize that the Outside was actual and so that damnation was a fact, doesn't preclude them failing to understand how to produce Arcane Ground as a place where they could exact their plan.
Also, as SmilerLoki points out, we don't know that Sorcery is needed at all to make the Sarcophagus function at all.
No that's your conclusion shoehorned into my statement. I'm saying they didn't have magic and the only reason they could build the IF was because Ajokli (or any other Outside agency). Ajokli provided the magic, not the progenitors.
But you preclude that magic is necessary, even though we have no evidence that this would be the case. Why is it unlikely that pinnacle level Tekne could not achieve it? For example, the Ark itself is far more advanced than any other Tekne thing we know of, besides the Sarcophagus, and yet it worked without magic.
We have only what's provided, yes.
What's provided doesn't allow for mundane reasoning to unlock the secrets of the magical.
I don't follow, what is provided that proves that?
We can easily say that the Inverse Fire and the Sarcophagus prove this, if we presume they are Tekne. But you choose to initially presume they are not, and so disprove this. Since the Inverse Fire works everywhere though, it kind of goes against it being magic, since if the Inverse Fire and so the Sarcophagus are of the same ilk, it doesn't stand to reason why they should work differently.
I'm not talking about the real world.
The IF acts and works exactly like a lot of magic we see, so its likely some kind of magic (also it doesn't act like any other mundane thing, same conclusion).
Tekne doing magic doesn't fit, so they needed something with magic to help out.
"Outside' intervention seems most likely.
IF as a concept then must have come from Outside.
Ajokli is the most likely prospect and had the most to gain from its creation and use.
But you mentioned the LHC, which is a real thing, as being the only thing which would convince you that a Tekne way of viewing the Outside as possible. That is a reference to the real world, or am I misunderstanding?
-
If the IF was magic, it wouldn't work on anarcane ground, right? So it wouldn't work on the progenitors world, and it wouldn't have made them discover the outside.
-
If the IF was magic, it wouldn't work on anarcane ground, right? So it wouldn't work on the progenitors world, and it wouldn't have made them discover the outside.
If we knew anything about anarcane ground, I'd speculate one way or the other, but that's more of a mystery than anything else.
I'll agree that if no sorcery of any kind, no magic, no gods, no aporetic sorcery, nothing at all of that nature, 'works' on anarcane ground, then neither would the IF.
I don't agree with that premise, but if that's your starting conditions, then there's nothing further to speculate.
-
If the IF was magic, it wouldn't work on anarcane ground, right? So it wouldn't work on the progenitors world, and it wouldn't have made them discover the outside.
If we knew anything about anarcane ground, I'd speculate one way or the other, but that's more of a mystery than anything else.
I'll agree that if no sorcery of any kind, no magic, no gods, no aporetic sorcery, nothing at all of that nature, 'works' on anarcane ground, then neither would the IF.
I don't agree with that premise, but if that's your starting conditions, then there's nothing further to speculate.
Isn't it precisely the reason why the consult didn't attacked Atrithau?
-
Everything is conjecture ;p;
The books themselves aren't, or we simply have nothing to discuss.
Other than what i pointed out you mean, which is the fact that it only works on Earwa, which just happens to be the only place in the universe that uses magic, and that the Inchoroi couldn't get it working until they had a brilliant Magi working for them.
Additionally, Achamian and Mimara have seen the No-God, described it, and no Mark is mentioned.
Also, some theories postulate that the No-God very much worked on other worlds, though I'm not a fan of this line of thinking.
I'd argue that makes magic more likely, not less, considering that removing chorae means more magic can be used - whereas the use of chorae are a special kind of negative-magic that one might argue doesn't count. But irrelevant since the chorae are removed.
The Chorae are either protection or part of the System. In the former case the No-God itself needs to be created by Emilidis to be magic, since he is the only sorcerer able to create magical artifacts immune to Chorae. That puts huge strain on your theory. The latter case would mean that without the Chorae the No-God can't function, which is evidently not so.
I assume grafting works on mundane knowledge of fancy genetic engineering. Noteworthy that no matter how smart, and born with the ability to see the onta, Kellhus was unable to do sorcery until taught.
Until the Grafting the Inchoroi couldn't use sorcery at all, even if taught. They took Nonmen prisoners, seduced the Aporitics, they had access to teachers, and the Grafting was still required. By your own definition they did something mundane that created magical results, i.e. the ability to use sorcery.
To me, genetic manipulation and augmented sensory inputs via technology is mundane in a way that creating energy and matter from nothing and manipulating the world with thoughts is strictly magical. Like being able to change your eyes so that you can see infrared light (mundane) - this doesn't let you control the heat and reverse entropy with your thoughts (magic).
I also feel you're confusing Earwa and our world in your arguments. In Earwa, Tekne and sorcery are both mundane. They are explicitly allowed by the Earwan laws of nature. In our world, we presume (which is the right thing to do until exhaustively proven otherwise) that sorcery is disallowed, "magic", using your terminology.
There is nothing magic in that sense in Earwa. At least nothing we are explicitly aware of.
-
To clarify, I would think that Divine Magic (a la Kellhus' levitation and such), the Gods themselves (Ajokli Earthquote stomp and chorae manipulation), and probably the Psuke (markless sorcery), all of which create/do magic that is indistinguishable from nature and therefore The God (whatever that is) would be able to perform some amount of magic on anarcane ground.
If the IF was magic, it wouldn't work on anarcane ground, right? So it wouldn't work on the progenitors world, and it wouldn't have made them discover the outside.
If we knew anything about anarcane ground, I'd speculate one way or the other, but that's more of a mystery than anything else.
I'll agree that if no sorcery of any kind, no magic, no gods, no aporetic sorcery, nothing at all of that nature, 'works' on anarcane ground, then neither would the IF.
I don't agree with that premise, but if that's your starting conditions, then there's nothing further to speculate.
Isn't it precisely the reason why the consult didn't attacked Atrithau?
Technically, its speculated that the No-God didnt attack Atrithau for that reason, though we know the Consult don't control the No-God directly.
It is mentioned that the Consult probably avoided it because the No-God avoided it, and that since they themselves rely heavily on magic that they were wary of it. Though, as I said above, they didn't have the psuke, are not gods, and do not have the divine magic that Kellhus does.
-
If the IF was magic, it wouldn't work on anarcane ground, right? So it wouldn't work on the progenitors world, and it wouldn't have made them discover the outside.
If we knew anything about anarcane ground, I'd speculate one way or the other, but that's more of a mystery than anything else.
I'll agree that if no sorcery of any kind, no magic, no gods, no aporetic sorcery, nothing at all of that nature, 'works' on anarcane ground, then neither would the IF.
I don't agree with that premise, but if that's your starting conditions, then there's nothing further to speculate.
To be clear, when addressing this point I presume that Wilshire's theory requires the Inverse Fire to be divine, which might work on anarcane grounds. For example, the divine is not hindered by Chorae, as evidenced by Ajokli pinning the skin-spies in the Golden Room to the floor.
But I would heavily dispute Psukhe, since it's very much vulnerable to Chorae despite being Markless.
Kellhus's Markless sorcery I'm now forced to consider divine influence, since Bakker doesn't want to ratify his words about it being powered by the supreme understanding of sorcery Kellhus has acquired.
-
There is nothing magic in that sense in Earwa. At least nothing we are explicitly aware of.
If that's the case we're not having a discussion about anything. Everything is mundane.
I disagree there is no difference, but as with Jabberwock03, if that's your starting condition then there's nothing at all to discuss.
Everything is conjecture ;p;
The books themselves aren't, or we simply have nothing to discuss.
If the books were clear, there'd be nothing to discuss as we'd all agree.
I'm going to assume this is not the case.
Other than what i pointed out you mean, which is the fact that it only works on Earwa, which just happens to be the only place in the universe that uses magic, and that the Inchoroi couldn't get it working until they had a brilliant Magi working for them.
Additionally, Achamian and Mimara have seen the No-God, described it, and no Mark is mentioned.
Fair point.
The only thing I can say is that what's inside and whats visible on the outside are not the same? I don't think most sorcery is visible through solid walls, except chorae.
Also, some theories postulate that the No-God very much worked on other worlds, though I'm not a fan of this line of thinking.
Ah, conjecture about what's in the books and how things work. lol. I agree that some postulate that, and I don't agree either. It doesn't jive with how I see thigns working in Earwa.
I'd argue that makes magic more likely, not less, considering that removing chorae means more magic can be used - whereas the use of chorae are a special kind of negative-magic that one might argue doesn't count. But irrelevant since the chorae are removed.
The Chorae are either protection or part of the System.
Could be both.
The latter case would mean that without the Chorae the No-God can't function, which is evidently not so.
Or that it requires sorcery but not necessarily aporetic/chorae.
Again, all I can say is that maybe the mark wasn't visible as whatever was magical was contained within.
Though my only issue with this is that then there's not reason for it not to have worked on other wolds, which I find confusing.
I assume grafting works on mundane knowledge of fancy genetic engineering. Noteworthy that no matter how smart, and born with the ability to see the onta, Kellhus was unable to do sorcery until taught.
Until the Grafting the Inchoroi couldn't use sorcery at all, even if taught. They took Nonmen prisoners, seduced the Aporitics, they had access to teachers, and the Grafting was still required. By your own definition they did something mundane that created magical results, i.e. the ability to use sorcery.
Nah, see below. I explained it neatly.
To me, genetic manipulation and augmented sensory inputs via technology is mundane in a way that creating energy and matter from nothing and manipulating the world with thoughts is strictly magical. Like being able to change your eyes so that you can see infrared light (mundane) - this doesn't let you control the heat and reverse entropy with your thoughts (magic).
I also feel you're confusing Earwa and our world in your arguments. In Earwa, Tekne and sorcery are both mundane. They are explicitly allowed by the Earwan laws of nature. In our world, we presume (which is the right thing to do until exhaustively proven otherwise) that sorcery is disallowed, "magic", using your terminology.
I don't think I am, but I think my terminology is confusing to you.
But if you think that magic and technology are the same in Earwa, there's nothing at all to discuss, and I'm not entirely sure what you've been debating for or against. If there's nothing to distinguish magic from not-magic, then whether I call the IF magic or not magic, its inconsequential, and we are in agreement.
-
If the IF was magic, it wouldn't work on anarcane ground, right? So it wouldn't work on the progenitors world, and it wouldn't have made them discover the outside.
If we knew anything about anarcane ground, I'd speculate one way or the other, but that's more of a mystery than anything else.
I'll agree that if no sorcery of any kind, no magic, no gods, no aporetic sorcery, nothing at all of that nature, 'works' on anarcane ground, then neither would the IF.
I don't agree with that premise, but if that's your starting conditions, then there's nothing further to speculate.
To be clear, when addressing this point I presume that Wilshire's theory requires the Inverse Fire to be divine, which might work on anarcane grounds. For example, the divine is not hindered by Chorae, as evidenced by Ajokli pinning the skin-spies in the Golden Room to the floor.
But I would heavily dispute Psukhe, since it's very much vulnerable to Chorae despite being Markless.
Kellhus's Markless sorcery I now forced to consider divine influence, since Bakker doesn't want to ratify his words about it being powered by the supreme understanding of sorcery Kellhus acquired.
We can ignore Kellhus and Psuke being able to work on anarcane. For one, the Kellhus thing is confusing and the only proof is Bakker post-text (which I dislike), and the Psuke we can never say either way which makes it largely un-disprovable (which is admittedly distasteful) ((and I also don't like casting "Psuke!" to bolster arguments)).
Ajokli/Gods are really the important piece here, since that's basically my claim is that Ajokli is responsible for the IF, and I think they would be able to do whatever their brand of magic is on anarcane ground.
-
Lol'd.
Wilshire don't take this personally, but you forced me to do this
Watching a superb example of the backfire effect taking place right here. Doesn't matter how much evidence you give someone - if they are hell bent on believing something else, evidence to the contrary makes them double down.
-
Lol'd.
Wilshire don't take this personally, but you forced me to do this
Watching a superb example of the backfire effect taking place right here. Doesn't matter how much evidence you give someone - if they are hell bent on believing something else, evidence to the contrary makes them double down.
You can post that anywhere that two people disagree with something, and both sides can do it to the other. I'd say you're missing the point - I think a useful discussion is being had here, but I'm sorry its not up to your standards lol.
-
There is nothing magic in that sense in Earwa. At least nothing we are explicitly aware of.
But if you think that magic and technology are the same in Earwa, there's nothing at all to discuss, and I'm not entirely sure what you've been debating for or against. If there's nothing to distinguish magic from not-magic, then whether I call the IF magic or not magic, its inconsequential, and we are in agreement.
This is the crux of our dispute, then. This is actually very interesting to me. Crucially, I take it for granted that in Earwa Tekne and sorcery can achieve the same results, since they are working with the same laws of nature. The difference is only in mechanics. Sorcery often has the Mark, Tekne doesn't. Sorcery doesn't work on anarcane grounds, Tekne (presumably) does. Some things are easier to achieve by sorcerous means, some are more effectively done with Tekne.
I don's see anything that would principally disallow Tekne to match sorcery in every respect, while you prefer to think the opposite is true. So far it's only required for the "Ajokli behind the Inverse Fire" theory. But that theory outright disputes things that are clearly stated in the series, which makes it very weak from the start. Is there something else that makes you prefer this line of thinking?
Absolutely serious question, completely unrelated to the fact that, so far, I disagree. I'm interested and would like to hear your thoughts on the matter.
Fair point.
The only thing I can say is that what's inside and whats visible on the outside are not the same? I don't think most sorcery is visible through solid walls, except chorae.
As far as we can tell, there is nothing inside except the Insertant. Malowebi certainly doesn't mention anything.
The Insertant isn't treated in any way before the insertion, which is seen in TUC.
Or that it requires sorcery but not necessarily aporetic/chorae.
Again, all I can say is that maybe the mark wasn't visible as whatever was magical was contained within.
This again puts additional strain on your theory, since the Consult now needs to have multiple ways to realize the No-God.
I assume grafting works on mundane knowledge of fancy genetic engineering. Noteworthy that no matter how smart, and born with the ability to see the onta, Kellhus was unable to do sorcery until taught.
Until the Grafting the Inchoroi couldn't use sorcery at all, even if taught. They took Nonmen prisoners, seduced the Aporitics, they had access to teachers, and the Grafting was still required. By your own definition they did something mundane that created magical results, i.e. the ability to use sorcery.
Nah, see below. I explained it neatly.
To me, genetic manipulation and augmented sensory inputs via technology is mundane in a way that creating energy and matter from nothing and manipulating the world with thoughts is strictly magical. Like being able to change your eyes so that you can see infrared light (mundane) - this doesn't let you control the heat and reverse entropy with your thoughts (magic).
Here, I don't see your point. Can you clarify?
-
I think the fundamental question is, can a mundane object interact with the Outside? My intuition is yes.
Also, it just seems implausible to me that Ajokli could interact with the Inchoroi through the Inverse Fire, but could not gain entrance to the Ark and only realized it was there by the void it left.
-
Also, some theories postulate that the No-God very much worked on other worlds, though I'm not a fan of this line of thinking.
This goes against everything we know. There was an original insertant, pre Nayu. When Akka talks with the dragon isn't there mention of the No-God destroying other planets? If not, it doesn't matter, the was an original insertant that they used on other planets.
Me, myself, I don't see how the IF is magical. Its what spurned the progenitors on their quest to find a planet that could be shut off. They dug too deep, and created the IF. Anyway the only way Ajokli could create the IF is if he had a link to their home planet. And, if that was the case the wouldn't of had to travel the Universe to find one.
-
Also, some theories postulate that the No-God very much worked on other worlds, though I'm not a fan of this line of thinking.
This goes against everything we know. There was an original insertant, pre Nayu. When Akka talks with the dragon isn't there mention of the No-God destroying other planets? If not, it doesn't matter, the was an original insertant that they used on other planets.
There is no mention of the No-God destroying other planets, Wutteat only says that the Inchoroi did so, without specifying the means.
I also always took it that the original Insertant is Nau-Cayuti, since his is the first confirmed case of the No-God being activated.
-
Also, some theories postulate that the No-God very much worked on other worlds, though I'm not a fan of this line of thinking.
This goes against everything we know. There was an original insertant, pre Nayu. When Akka talks with the dragon isn't there mention of the No-God destroying other planets? If not, it doesn't matter, the was an original insertant that they used on other planets.
There is no mention of the No-God destroying other planets, Wutteat only says that the Inchoroi did so, without specifying the means.
I also always took it that the original Insertant is Nau-Cayuti, since his is the first confirmed case of the No-God being activated.
That goes directly against what Bakker stated in the AMA though.
-
There is no mention of the No-God destroying other planets, Wutteat only says that the Inchoroi did so, without specifying the means.
I also always took it that the original Insertant is Nau-Cayuti, since his is the first confirmed case of the No-God being activated.
I said incould be wrong on the Wutteat scene, and it not specifically be mentioned. But, Akka's dreams about how they just lined them up and either killed them, until they found Nayu, who mayched the OI. This is confirmed in TUC by the mutilated also.
-
Let me just say that Ajokli created the IF and the No-God was never used on other planets, is one of the biggest reaches I've seen. More so than Kellhus loves Esme, which was confirmed. Boom, goes the dynamite!
-
This is not how I read Bakker's answers. As far as I remember, everything he said was consistent with Nau-Cayuti being the original Insertant.
-
No it wasn't. Its the whole point of Akka's Golden Room dream ending with Nayu, a toothless wretch staring at the No-God. The finally found one who matched the OI.
-
I would love quotes, but so far I trust my memory more.
Its the whole point of Akka's Golden Room dream ending with Nayu, a toothless wretch staring at the No-God. The finally found one who matched the OI.
I read that entire scene as depicting the history of the first ever activation of the No-God.
-
Or that it requires sorcery but not necessarily aporetic/chorae.
Again, all I can say is that maybe the mark wasn't visible as whatever was magical was contained within.
This again puts additional strain on your theory, since the Consult now needs to have multiple ways to realize the No-God.
No strain at all - they need magic to make it work. Whether its Aporos, or Emilidis, or New Consult, whoever. Magic is the key - the specific kind doesn't matter since we don't know much else.
For the record, I'm imaging something like the magical soul-powered locks at the Library to be something analogous to this. A marrying of technology with sorcery held together with souls.
Here, I don't see your point. Can you clarify?
Honestly, probably not. I understand why we're not getting through - I see a fundamental disconnect between magic and technology in Earwa where you do not.
...
Absolutely serious question, completely unrelated to the fact that, so far, I disagree. I'm interested and would like to hear your thoughts on the matter.
Getting rid of all the multi-embedded quote tags lol, lets see if we can have a new discussion.
Crucially, I take it for granted that in Earwa Tekne and sorcery can achieve the same results, since they are working with the same laws of nature. The difference is only in mechanics. Sorcery often has the Mark, Tekne doesn't. Sorcery doesn't work on anarcane grounds, Tekne (presumably) does. Some things are easier to achieve by sorcerous means, some are more effectively done with Tekne.
I don's see anything that would principally disallow Tekne to match sorcery in every respect, while you prefer to think the opposite is true. So far it's only required for the "Ajokli behind the Inverse Fire" theory.
So for me, I take the fundamental divide between Tekne and Sorcery to be both distinct and insurmountable.
To me, the Inchoroi and the Dunyain are representative of the 'meaningless world' analogues. They are, escentially, analogous to what would happen if you took a person from IRL and thrust them into the magical world of Earwa.
Earwa is obviously not 'meaningless' - its got real Gods and Magic. For me, this is one of the major underpinnings of the story itself. Its what makes it a story at all: the very idea that in Earwa purse logic loses every time because the Gods are real. This fundamentally disallows the tekne, and the Dunyain, to have a complete understanding of the World. They require the 'real world' to show them that there is truly meaning infused into the fabric of reality.
I don't mean to get controversial hear, but I think from Bakker's POV its the exact opposite of our reality, at least in his understanding. The idea that scientists bring meaninglessness to the people to incorrectly believe that there is meaning in the world. Its just how the story is structured.
Maybe this sheds some light onto where I'm coming from?
-
This is not how I read Bakker's answers. As far as I remember, everything he said was consistent with Nau-Cayuti being the original Insertant.
I believe you are miss-remembering.
Bakker, out of text I belive, implied that Nau matched the original insertant.
Its not clear what that really meant. IMO, the 'original insertant' was not even inserted into the NG - it was the Ark, which was itself some kind of conscious entity. I haven't been referring to, or considering, this line of thought in the conversation thus far.
At this point, anything that Bakker has said post-TUC is pretty unclear. He was trying to be clever and I think he's made things worse for everyone lol.
-
I think the fundamental question is, can a mundane object interact with the Outside? My intuition is yes.
Obviously, I completely disagree lol
Also, it just seems implausible to me that Ajokli could interact with the Inchoroi through the Inverse Fire, but could not gain entrance to the Ark and only realized it was there by the void it left.
The reason for Ajokli, or any of the Gods, being unable to get into the Golden Room and/or The Ark, all the Sranc, The First Apocalypse, Inchoroi, etc. etc. is unclear to me. I also don't understand how the proginators, or the Inchoroi, could be damned if the Gods couldn't see them.
If we can believe that some souls find oblivion by staying unnoticed by the Gods, I'm really not sure how living your whole life as invisible leads to something other than oblivion. I don't see how or why the Inchoroi could be so invisible and so damned.
-
But, here's my question Wilshire. How do you propose Ajokli going to a meaningless world and giving the progenitors the IF? As you said their world is meaningless and so is the IF. Its technological. For Ajokli to do that, there had to be a link to their world. We know that's not the case. How do you square that. That's the crux of your argument.
-
But, here's my question Wilshire. How do you propose Ajokli going to a meaningless world and giving the progenitors the IF? As you said their world is meaningless and so is the IF. Its technological. For Ajokli to do that, there had to be a link to their world. We know that's not the case. How do you square that. That's the crux of your argument.
The Inchoroi homeworld is not meaningless lol. The whole universe is meaningful in this story, that's the fundamental premise. Gods and souls are as real in an anarcane place as they are in an arcane place. Anarcane and arcane refer to sorcery, i.e. "co-opting" the song of the God of Gods. God dreams lucidly in anarcane places, so sorcery becomes impossible.
-
No strain at all - they need magic to make it work. Whether its Aporos, or Emilidis, or New Consult, whoever. Magic is the key - the specific kind doesn't matter since we don't know much else.
What I mean is, even one way to activate the No-God took the Consult of three races to come up with. Postulating that there is more than one way is adding additional variables to the picture which is consistent without them.
Honestly, probably not. I understand why we're not getting through - I see a fundamental disconnect between magic and technology in Earwa where you do not.
Yes, I got that, but what I don't understand is how do you reconcile the Inchoroi Tekne means (the Grafting) with the result of them gaining sorcery, which is, by your given definition, fundamentally beyond Tekne.
Maybe this sheds some light onto where I'm coming from?
Yes, thank you! It's very helpful and enlightening, but I feel that point still stands when we use my paradigm. Then Tekne is the equivalent of our science, but by virtue of being in a world with different laws, it's still able to achieve results that are completely fantastic in our world. Basically, sorcery begins with magic, while Tekne comes to magic only in its advanced stages.
And the Tekne shown in the series is more advanced then our technology.
-
quote= SmilerLoki]I read that entire scene as depicting the history of the first ever activation of the No-God.
You've read it wrong. And we have tons of evidence to the contrary. The 2 Inchoroi and a few human sorcerers found the NG. Figured out how it worked. Oh, added some chorale to it for defense against magic (which correct me if I'm wrong, Wilshire said the NG was magical), then Aurang knew it needed a inerrant. So, they start tossing in people, until one works, Nayu. Not the original. The Ark was an entity unto its own self. The Inchoroi called it mother. It didn't need a human to run on. Or, to sustain itself. No magic. All tekne.
-
The Inchoroi homeworld is not meaningless lol. The whole universe is meaningful in this story, that's the fundamental premise. Gods and souls are as real in an anarcane place as they are in an arcane place. Anarcane and arcane refer to sorcery, i.e. "co-opting" the song of the God of Gods. God dreams lucidly in anarcane places, so sorcery becomes impossible.
Where do you get this from. If the Gods don nor interact with their world, no sorcery, then it is meaningless. Know idea where you got this idea.
-
In fact TLEILAXU, the whole promise of the story was for Kellhus to turn Earwa into a meaningless world.
-
You've read it wrong. And we have tons of evidence to the contrary. The 2 Inchoroi and a few human sorcerers found the NG. Figured out how it worked. Oh, added some chorale to it for defense against magic (which correct me if I'm wrong, Wilshire said the NG was magical), then Aurang knew it needed a inerrant. So, they start tossing in people, until one works, Nayu. Not the original. The Ark was an entity unto its own self. The Inchoroi called it mother. It didn't need a human to run on. Or, to sustain itself. No magic. All tekne.
My interpretation is, they found some knowledge (written or stored in some kind of Tekne device), which included the plans to the No-God, then created or found (can go both ways) the Sarcophagus without possessing the full understanding of its workings. For some reason they decided that a soul must power it. Might have been in the plans, might have been part of their ad-hoc solution. Long story short, they were right and after many tries it worked.
-
But, here's my question Wilshire. How do you propose Ajokli going to a meaningless world and giving the progenitors the IF? As you said their world is meaningless and so is the IF. Its technological. For Ajokli to do that, there had to be a link to their world. We know that's not the case. How do you square that. That's the crux of your argument.
The Inchoroi homeworld is not meaningless lol. The whole universe is meaningful in this story, that's the fundamental premise. Gods and souls are as real in an anarcane place as they are in an arcane place. Anarcane and arcane refer to sorcery, i.e. "co-opting" the song of the God of Gods. God dreams lucidly in anarcane places, so sorcery becomes impossible.
This sums it up.
Its not that the universe is actually meaningless - the Gods exist everywhere, not just Earwa, and people/aliens/whatever are save/damned on a universal scale.
That's, presumably, what made the proginators/Inchoroi worried about being damned. If they were only damned if they went to Earwa, they wouldn't have spent their lives looking for it to seal it off.
Or, put another way, if we ignore this thread and say that the IF shows them their afterlife via pure tekne, they wouldn't have seen themselves damned. It would have shown that on Earwa if the whole universe was meaningless.
Why, and how, would the IF show damnation when it wasn't on Earwa if the gods could not interact with the Universe except on Earwa?
-
The Inchoroi homeworld is not meaningless lol. The whole universe is meaningful in this story, that's the fundamental premise. Gods and souls are as real in an anarcane place as they are in an arcane place. Anarcane and arcane refer to sorcery, i.e. "co-opting" the song of the God of Gods. God dreams lucidly in anarcane places, so sorcery becomes impossible.
Where do you get this from. If the Gods don nor interact with their world, no sorcery, then it is meaningless. Know idea where you got this idea.
The explanation is in the post you quoted. The universe is meaningful, Gods, souls and Damnation are objectively and demonstrably real in this universe, that is why the Inchoroi set out on their quest for shutting off the Outside. This is the premise of the story.
You've read it wrong. And we have tons of evidence to the contrary. The 2 Inchoroi and a few human sorcerers found the NG. Figured out how it worked. Oh, added some chorale to it for defense against magic (which correct me if I'm wrong, Wilshire said the NG was magical), then Aurang knew it needed a inerrant. So, they start tossing in people, until one works, Nayu. Not the original. The Ark was an entity unto its own self. The Inchoroi called it mother. It didn't need a human to run on. Or, to sustain itself. No magic. All tekne.
My interpretation is, they found some knowledge (written or stored in some kind of Tekne device), which included the plans to the No-God, then created or found (can go both ways) the Sarcophagus without possessing the full understanding of its workings. For some reason they decided that a soul must power it. Might have been in the plans, might have been part of their ad-hoc solution. Long story short, they were right and after many tries it worked.
Bakker states that explicitly that the reason that Nau Cayuti could be used was because his brain structure emulated that of the original insertant, which means that the No-God had insertants in previous incarnations. The supply of insertants and probably also a great deal of knowledge about how to activate the No-God was lost during Arkfall.
-
The explanation is in the post you quoted. The universe is meaningful, Gods, souls and Damnation are objectively and demonstrably real in this universe, that is why the Inchoroi set out on their quest for shutting off the Outside. This is the premise of the story.
I feel the need to say that I agree with this completely.
Bakker states that explicitly that the reason that Nau Cayuti could be used was because his brain structure emulated that of the original insertant, which means that the No-God had insertants in previous incarnations. The supply of insertants and probably also a great deal of knowledge about how to activate the No-God was lost during Arkfall.
I remember Bakker saying this, but not in regards to Nau-Cayuti. It was said in general, about a hypothetical Insertant. That's what I've gotten from Bakker's answer.
-
The explanation is in the post you quoted. The universe is meaningful, Gods, souls and Damnation are objectively and demonstrably real in this universe, that is why the Inchoroi set out on their quest for shutting off the Outside. This is the premise of the story.
No, SL, the entire universe is not meaningful. We know this through the countless planets the Inchoroi destroyed. That the Inchoroi home planet was meaningless, no sorcery and such.
Their goal was to find a meaningful world. One that they could live on, shut themselves off from hell and live forever. I have no clue how you come to that conclusion. Look, always in for a a good conversation. But, a lot I've heard in this thread has never been mentioned til now. We can't just go creating new rules.
-
Maybe this sheds some light onto where I'm coming from?
Yes, thank you! It's very helpful and enlightening, but I feel that point still stands when we use my paradigm. Then Tekne is the equivalent of our science, but by virtue of being in a world with different laws, it's still able to achieve results that are completely fantastic in our world. Basically, sorcery begins with magic, while Tekne comes to magic only in its advanced stages.
And the Tekne shown in the series is more advanced then our technology.
I just don't see that interpretation in my reading of the story.
I would expect, then, that the Inchoroi wouldn't have all died trying desperately to graft the ability to see the Onta, if it was something they could fix with a pair of cool sunglasses. For a race trying even more desperately to avoid damnation, dying would be the absolute last resort - they would have found a technological solution to the issue. Ontaglasses would have made more sense 8)
-
The explanation is in the post you quoted. The universe is meaningful, Gods, souls and Damnation are objectively and demonstrably real in this universe, that is why the Inchoroi set out on their quest for shutting off the Outside. This is the premise of the story.
No, SL, the entire universe is not meaningful. We know this through the countless planets the Inchoroi destroyed. That the Inchoroi home planet was meaningless, no sorcery and such.
Their goal was to find a meaningful world. One that they could live on, shut themselves off from hell and live forever. I have no clue how you come to that conclusion. Look, always in for a a good conversation. But, a lot I've heard in this thread has never been mentioned til now. We can't just go creating new rules.
ETA:
For clarity, the confusion is that damnation/heaven/Outside can't exist in a meaningless Universe. It does exist, therefore, the world is meaningful. Inchoroi homeworld and otherwise.
Earwa is the only place where that meaning can be accessed for some reason (again, ignoring this thread, as its confusing things).
-
The Outside is an entirely separate entity from the Universe. It is only connected to Earwa, the promised, meaningful planet.
-
I just don't see that interpretation in my reading of the story.
I understand.
I would expect, then, that the Inchoroi wouldn't have all died trying desperately to graft the ability to see the Onta, if it was something they could fix with a pair of cool sunglasses. For a race trying even more desperately to avoid damnation, dying would be the absolute last resort - they would have found a technological solution to the issue. Ontaglasses would have made more sense 8)
Sure, but they only had Grafting as their means, and it proved to be less than ideal. Still, Grafting is Tekne, and it eventually gave them sorcery.
-
The Outside is an entirely separate entity from the Universe. It is only connected to Earwa, the promised, meaningful planet.
That doesn't make sense. Then there is no damnation or salvation except on Earwa (edited my previous post, btw), and the Inchoroi/proginators would never have sought to shut the universe from the gods.
Earwa is where the universe can access that meaning. Shutting Earwa shuts on the meaningfulness faucet. And/or shutting Earwa remove the plug from meaning and drains all meaninfulness from the Universe.
-
The Outside is an entirely separate entity from the Universe. It is only connected to Earwa, the promised, meaningful planet.
Then how do you explain the Inverse Fire? It worked on the Ark always, not only in Earwa.
-
I just don't see that interpretation in my reading of the story.
I understand.
I would expect, then, that the Inchoroi wouldn't have all died trying desperately to graft the ability to see the Onta, if it was something they could fix with a pair of cool sunglasses. For a race trying even more desperately to avoid damnation, dying would be the absolute last resort - they would have found a technological solution to the issue. Ontaglasses would have made more sense 8)
Glad we got here SL :D . As always, things are easier when we define our starting conditions, but we figured out how to backtrack from the middle lol.
-
The explanation is in the post you quoted. The universe is meaningful, Gods, souls and Damnation are objectively and demonstrably real in this universe, that is why the Inchoroi set out on their quest for shutting off the Outside. This is the premise of the story.
No, SL, the entire universe is not meaningful. We know this through the countless planets the Inchoroi destroyed. That the Inchoroi home planet was meaningless, no sorcery and such.
Their goal was to find a meaningful world. One that they could live on, shut themselves off from hell and live forever. I have no clue how you come to that conclusion. Look, always in for a a good conversation. But, a lot I've heard in this thread has never been mentioned til now. We can't just go creating new rules.
What the fuck man? This is Wilshire tier denial. The goal of the Inchoroi is to SHUT the Outside to prevent their souls from being damned, for which they must for some reason cleanse the "promised world". For some reason, perhaps because it's almost entirely arcane, Eärwa is this world. Being meaningful has nothing to do with sorcery, that depends on whether the God dreams lucidly in this place (see e.g. http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/78108-the-unholy-consult-previews-and-speculation/&page=17 ).
-
Glad we got here SL :D . As always, things are easier when we define our starting conditions, but we figured out how to backtrack from the middle lol.
We figured out that our starting conditions differ, and it in itself was well worth the discussion!
-
What the fuck man? This is Wilshire tier denial.
Its fine if making fun of me helps you feel better about yourself, but ... Can you even make arguments without personal insults, or is that just anathema to your core being? Geez. :( :-\ :'(
-
What the fuck man? This is Wilshire tier denial.
Its fine if making fun of me helps you feel better about yourself, but ... Can you even make arguments without personal insults, or is that just anathema to your core being? Geez. :( :-\ :'(
Actually my thought process was more like I had to insult you to not be too harsh on MSJ (not because of preferential treatment but to help him see the wrongness of his argument). Not sure if it makes sense.
-
Actually my thought process was more like I had to insult you to not be too harsh on MSJ (not because of preferential treatment but to help him see the wrongness of his argument). Not sure if it makes sense.
It actually does make sense, which makes it extremely funny.
[humor mode ON]Wilshire taking one for the team![humor mode OFF]
-
What the fuck man? This is Wilshire tier denial. The goal of the Inchoroi is to SHUT the Outside to prevent their souls from being damned.
Exactly. And,the only place for that to happen is on Earwa. A meaningless world has no manifesting Gods, no sorcery and such. Its why I don't buy into Ajokli creating the IF on the progenitors planet. And, I understand Wilshire's rebuttals and denials. It just makes zero sense. And wouldn't you put 2 And 2 together and realize that the arcane ground is what makes Earwa meaningful? Able to shut off the Outside? Ajokli didn't magic his way to their world because of no connection because its entirely anarcane.
-
Actually my thought process was more like I had to insult you to not be too harsh on MSJ (not because of preferential treatment but to help him see the wrongness of his argument). Not sure if it makes sense.
No, quite simply, Tleilaxu doesn't know how to act. He gets mad at me when he says he would kill innocent children with his own hands. Tleilaxu's humor isn't so fucking funny! ;)
-
What the fuck man? This is Wilshire tier denial. The goal of the Inchoroi is to SHUT the Outside to prevent their souls from being damned.
Exactly. And,the only place for that to happen is on Earwa. A meaningless world has no manifesting Gods, no sorcery and such. Its why I don't buy into Ajokli creating the IF on the progenitors planet. And, I understand Wilshire's rebuttals and denials. It just makes zero sense. And wouldn't you put 2 And 2 together and realize that the arcane ground is what makes Earwa meaningful? Able to shut off the Outside? Ajokli didn't magic his way to their world because of no connection because its entirely anarcane.
Can you explain damnation without souls and Gods please? I really don't understand where you're coming from still.
How can the universe be meaningless with those things? Or are you saying souls and damnation only exists on Earwa?
-
I have found Bakker's quote (https://www.reddit.com/r/Fantasy/comments/6r3hba/unholy_consultation_r_scott_bakker_bares_the_soul/dl486zk/) about an original Insertant.
This is how the question (https://www.reddit.com/r/Fantasy/comments/6r3hba/unholy_consultation_r_scott_bakker_bares_the_soul/dl2981n/) was formulated:
Was Nau-Cayuti fundamentally flawed in the way that Kelmomas was, or am I reading too much into similarities between them?
This is how the answer looks like:
And lastly, it's not the blood that enables the Carapace, its the ability of the brain to functionally emulate that of an original Insertant.
The way I read it myself, Bakker is referring to Nau-Cayuti as "an original Insertant" because the question compares Kelmomas with him. Though I do see how it can be read as referring to some unknown original Insertant who both Kelmomas and Nau-Cayuti are able to successfully emulate. I don't see how either of those readings can be shown as the only correct one with the information we have available at this point.
-
ZealouslyTL's original question had a lot of bullets. The two that might pertain to the quoted answer:
Does the blood of the Anasûrimbor have anything to do with activating the Carapace? And, as a tie-in question, does the absence of a soul have anything to do with the mechanics of reviving the No-God?
Was Nau-Cayuti fundamentally flawed in the way that Kelmomas was, or am I reading too much into similarities between them?
The answer:
it's not the blood that enables the Carapace, its the ability of the brain to functionally emulate that of an original Insertant.
I swear there's another one as well, but given that quote its terribly unclear (as with everything Bakker has said post-TUC.)
-
I swear there's another one as well, but given that quote its terribly unclear (as with everything Bakker has said post-TUC.)
Here (https://www.reddit.com/r/Fantasy/comments/6r3hba/unholy_consultation_r_scott_bakker_bares_the_soul/dl248c3/) it is.
-
I have found Bakker's quote (https://www.reddit.com/r/Fantasy/comments/6r3hba/unholy_consultation_r_scott_bakker_bares_the_soul/dl486zk/) about an original Insertant.
This is how the question (https://www.reddit.com/r/Fantasy/comments/6r3hba/unholy_consultation_r_scott_bakker_bares_the_soul/dl2981n/) was formulated:
Was Nau-Cayuti fundamentally flawed in the way that Kelmomas was, or am I reading too much into similarities between them?
This is how the answer looks like:
And lastly, it's not the blood that enables the Carapace, its the ability of the brain to functionally emulate that of an original Insertant.
The way I read it myself, Bakker is referring to Nau-Cayuti as "an original Insertant" because the question compares Kelmomas with him. Though I do see how it can be read as referring to some unknown original Insertant who both Kelmomas and Nau-Cayuti are able to successfully emulate. I don't see how either of those readings can be shown as the only correct one with the information we have available at this point.
See this post http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=2278.105
-
See this post http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=2278.105
Read it way before even making my first post on this forum. But thank you for the quote!
I took it to mean that the No-God with an Insertant is an ad-hoc solution to replace a function of the irreparably damaged Ark.
-
Seems there are a few scattered instances, though all about equally unclear. Might be helpful if they are all quoted in one place though.
See this post http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=2278.105
Read it way before even making my first post on this forum. But thank you for the quote!
I took it to mean that the No-God with an Insertant is an ad-hoc solution to replace a function of the irreparably damaged Ark.
Yeah this and the AMA answer to Bolivar make this seem correct.
-
See this post http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=2278.105
Read it way before even making my first post on this forum. But thank you for the quote!
I took it to mean that the No-God with an Insertant is an ad-hoc solution to replace a function of the irreparably damaged Ark.
Pretty sure it refers to the No-God (because that is what H is talking about, cue Bakker's response), i.e. having lost the original store of Insertants (circuits), they were forced to rummage through the world to find a suitable replacement.
-
Pretty sure it refers to the No-God (because that is what H is talking about, cue Bakker's response), i.e. having lost the original store of Insertants (circuits), they were forced to rummage through the world to find a suitable replacement.
My take is the "circuits" are some facet of the Ark that's no longer functional. H is starting his question by asking about the Ark:
I don't have a question prepared on short notice, so the first thing that comes to mind is to ask about Ark.
Bold mine.
[EDIT] Oh, actually, no, I read that soon after making my first post here.
-
The reason for Ajokli, or any of the Gods, being unable to get into the Golden Room and/or The Ark, all the Sranc, The First Apocalypse, Inchoroi, etc. etc. is unclear to me. I also don't understand how the proginators, or the Inchoroi, could be damned if the Gods couldn't see them.
If we can believe that some souls find oblivion by staying unnoticed by the Gods, I'm really not sure how living your whole life as invisible leads to something other than oblivion. I don't see how or why the Inchoroi could be so invisible and so damned.
Because damnation doesn't come from the gods, it comes from the Cubit.
They are not visible because the Eärwan gods are (seemingly) not universal, even if the Outside and the Cubit are. It's not clear if this means that the gods are "locked out" from other places, because they are anarcane, or what though. They've issued forth from the void, seemingly divorced from what the 100 can see. But perhaps the issue is the 100 and the sundering of the God of gods though...
-
The reason for Ajokli, or any of the Gods, being unable to get into the Golden Room and/or The Ark, all the Sranc, The First Apocalypse, Inchoroi, etc. etc. is unclear to me. I also don't understand how the proginators, or the Inchoroi, could be damned if the Gods couldn't see them.
If we can believe that some souls find oblivion by staying unnoticed by the Gods, I'm really not sure how living your whole life as invisible leads to something other than oblivion. I don't see how or why the Inchoroi could be so invisible and so damned.
Because damnation doesn't come from the gods, it comes from the Cubit.
They are not visible because the Eärwan gods are (seemingly) not universal, even if the Outside and the Cubit are. It's not clear if this means that the gods are "locked out" from other places, because they are anarcane, or what though. They've issued forth from the void, seemingly divorced from what the 100 can see. But perhaps the issue is the 100 and the sundering of the God of gods though...
The Inchoroi and the Ark are visible, but the meaning of the Ark is not visible (because it has none?). The way I see it, the Ark is like a Sranc. The Gods can see it, but it's just another element of the real to them, like a rock or a waterfall. The No-God is the ultimate manifestation of this physicality. The Gods can see the Inchoroi and the sins heaped upon them, but cannot see their mission.
-
The Inchoroi and the Ark are visible, but the meaning of the Ark is not visible (because it has none?). The way I see it, the Ark is like a Sranc. The Gods can see it, but it's just another element of the real to them, like a rock or a waterfall. The No-God is the ultimate manifestation of this physicality. The Gods can see the Inchoroi and the sins heaped upon them, but cannot see their mission.
I don't follow this, because the Inchoroi (and of course the Progenitors) are meaningful beings, that it the crux of their problem. Now, I do think you are probably right, they don't see Sranc and maybe not the Ark, because they are "artificial" beings, but I've presented ideas before on why that might be that aren't just meaning-based.
-
Its confusing to me. If anything without a soul is invisible, what do they even see?
Just nebulous pinpricks of light floating in voids? Like a picture from space of the dark side of Earth, but instead of lights they see souls?
-
Btw, has anyone thought about how the Inchoroi came to think Earwa was the promised land?
;)
-
Kellhus/Ajokli stops the Chorae-equipped skinspies so he knows they are something more than a rock or a waterfall.
And the opposite also happens, when Cnaiur/Ajokli/Gilgaol? goes to face the Whirlwind the Sranc make way for him, as if sensing that you do not f*ck with this guy.
-
Btw, has anyone thought about how the Inchoroi came to think Earwa was the promised land?
;)
Well, we don't know from the text/story. Seems to me only the Progenitors could've been the ones to promise as it reads as if Earwa was promised before they landed. The promise was the "fixing" of this planet will save them.
-
Its confusing to me. If anything without a soul is invisible, what do they even see?
Just nebulous pinpricks of light floating in voids? Like a picture from space of the dark side of Earth, but instead of lights they see souls?
Kellhus/Ajokli stops the Chorae-equipped skinspies so he knows they are something more than a rock or a waterfall.
And the opposite also happens, when Cnaiur/Ajokli/Gilgaol? goes to face the Whirlwind the Sranc make way for him, as if sensing that you do not f*ck with this guy.
I think gods see the world, but can only "comprehend/anticipate/can't put a word on it", intentions from soul based beings like humans, nonmen, Inchoroi.
So they can see the Srancs and the skinspies as if they were wolves or tigers; they are biologicals being moving and doing stuffs but with no real intentions/free will, they obey their master or their instinct.
But the No-God is a mechanical thing, little more than a piece of rock and metal, with much intentions and no soul. So the gods can "see" that their is a big piece of rock in that windy sky, but they can't perceive/understand his intentions, can't anticipate what it wanna do. And so it's not even that it doesn't make sens to them, but they completely ignore him as they can't even start to imagine that something like that exist. And in the end they are like "Hmmmm windy weither... by the way all babies are still born... well, shit happens".
It seems kinda dumb from an human perspective, but they are gods who think differently than humans and in a timeless way. It make sens to me that they don't see the No-God.
So, they see the world just fine as we do, but process it in another way than we do.
-
Btw, has anyone thought about how the Inchoroi came to think Earwa was the promised land?
;)
Well, we don't know from the text/story. Seems to me only the Progenitors could've been the ones to promise as it reads as if Earwa was promised before they landed. The promise was the "fixing" of this planet will save them.
Proginator Creation Myth is probably fairly likely, though someone sent the Inchoroi directly to Earwa. They basically popped out of a wormhole and landed, so it wasn't a mistake.
-
Proginator Creation Myth is probably fairly likely, though someone sent the Inchoroi directly to Earwa. They basically popped out of a wormhole and landed, so it wasn't a mistake.
But how do we know that isn't the same way they arrived to every other planet? If someone sent them to Eärwa, why all the stops in between? So, at the very least, they weren't directed toward it in particular from the get go. Which is something of a strike against the Ajokli in the Inverse Fire theory, I'd think.
-
Which is something of a strike against the Ajokli in the Inverse Fire theory, I'd think.
I would expect people are tired of hearing me talk about that in this thread, at this time ;). I'll just say, no its not: I have 'simple' explanation for that (same as everything else lol).
But how do we know that isn't the same way they arrived to every other planet? If someone sent them to Eärwa, why all the stops in between? So, at the very least, they weren't directed toward it in particular from the get go.
Yeah good point.
I can come up with: they knew it before they did whatever hyperspace-wormhole-jump to Earwa-Planet. I would expect that making wormholes is a energy and time intensive process, and perhaps their ship wasn't actually built for it - thus the damage to the ship and crash landing. They risked the jump because they finally found the planet (somehow?) and were excited to get there.
Either way, they certainly didn't know about it from the onset of their mission, otherwise its very difficult to explain the damaged ship.
Other than that, all I can think of is that it was ad hoc revisionist history/memory. They crash landed, so couldn't find another world, so obviously this was the world that they were meant to be on for eternity.
Obviously we have almost no information on the subject so its impossible to be sure, but we can think through some scenarios and maybe select the most reasonable one.
-
Its confusing to me. If anything without a soul is invisible, what do they even see?
Just nebulous pinpricks of light floating in voids? Like a picture from space of the dark side of Earth, but instead of lights they see souls?
Kellhus/Ajokli stops the Chorae-equipped skinspies so he knows they are something more than a rock or a waterfall.
And the opposite also happens, when Cnaiur/Ajokli/Gilgaol? goes to face the Whirlwind the Sranc make way for him, as if sensing that you do not f*ck with this guy.
I think gods see the world, but can only "comprehend/anticipate/can't put a word on it", intentions from soul based beings like humans, nonmen, Inchoroi.
So they can see the Srancs and the skinspies as if they were wolves or tigers; they are biologicals being moving and doing stuffs but with no real intentions/free will, they obey their master or their instinct.
But the No-God is a mechanical thing, little more than a piece of rock and metal, with much intentions and no soul. So the gods can "see" that their is a big piece of rock in that windy sky, but they can't perceive/understand his intentions, can't anticipate what it wanna do. And so it's not even that it doesn't make sens to them, but they completely ignore him as they can't even start to imagine that something like that exist. And in the end they are like "Hmmmm windy weither... by the way all babies are still born... well, shit happens".
It seems kinda dumb from an human perspective, but they are gods who think differently than humans and in a timeless way. It make sens to me that they don't see the No-God.
So, they see the world just fine as we do, but process it in another way than we do.
Exactly. As Bakker says, A better way to think of the No-God is as a philosophical zombie (p-zombie), of a piece with all the other soulless instruments of the Inchoroi. A perfectly unconscious god, and so in that respect, entirely at one with material reality, continuous with it, and so an agency invisible to the Outside.
.
The metaphysics of how exactly this god functions, are of course very far from clear.
-
Can you explain damnation without souls and Gods please? I really don't understand where you're coming from still.
How can the universe be meaningless with those things? Or are you saying souls and damnation only exists on Earwa?
No, we're not saying all souls don't end up in the Outside. What were saying is, and this completely wipes out your theory, is that Earwa is the only planet with a connection to the Outside. That's why its impossible for Ajokli to be the creator of the IF,it was discovered on the Inchoroi's home planet, one without a connection to the Outside. So, they set out to find the "promised land", Earwa where the was a link to the Outside to shut out the Gods. Magic isn't a reasonable answer Wilshire.
-
I think the fundamental question is, can a mundane object interact with the Outside? My intuition is yes.
Also, it just seems implausible to me that Ajokli could interact with the Inchoroi through the Inverse Fire, but could not gain entrance to the Ark and only realized it was there by the void it left.
H, a lot don't makes in world or Bakkers extra comments don't help it out. But, its well thought out and maybe this will be Wilshire's whale. I give him benefit of doubt.
Though I am also not Ajokli all the way down theories. I don't even think the Circumfix was first contact. I believe Kellhus in his niche in the Outside. I believe contact came the Diamos.
-
No, we're not saying all souls don't end up in the Outside. What were saying is, and this completely wipes out your theory, is that Earwa is the only planet with a connection to the Outside.
By the Glossary definition the Inverse Fire is a connection to the Outside stated to work not only on Earwa, but on other planets and in space, on the Ark while it was in transit. How do you reconcile it with your view of the Outside?
I also don't get how souls from other worlds (the worlds not connected to the Outside as presented in your theory) end up in the Outside. If they end up there, then the connection exists by definition.
-
No, we're not saying all souls don't end up in the Outside. What were saying is, and this completely wipes out your theory, is that Earwa is the only planet with a connection to the Outside.
By the Glossary definition the Inverse Fire is a connection to the Outside stated to work not only on Earwa, but on other planets and in space, on the Ark while it was in transit. How do you reconcile it with your view of the Outside?
I also don't get how souls from other worlds (the worlds not connected to the Outside as presented in your theory) end up in the Outside. If they end up there, then the connection exists by definition.
I think there is a difference between the connection of souls to the outside, which is a physical/metaphysical property of Earwa universe; and the fact that Earwa planet is deeply connected, partly merged, to the outside through arcane ground and topoi.
So, for me, all the universe is connected to the outside (but they can't interact with each other), and only (as far as we know) Earwa is somehow a little merged with the outside (magic is possible and the gods have more power on it).
And as I said, the IF could observe the outside, with tekne only and on anarcane groud, by finding the link between reality/outside through souls. And it make sens it would be a read-only device as there is no "merging (arcane)" on their home planet.
-
I think there is a difference between the connection of souls to the outside, which is a physical/metaphysical property of Earwa universe; and the fact that Earwa planet is deeply connected, partly merged, to the outside through arcane ground and topoi.
So, for me, all the universe is connected to the outside (but they can't interact with each other), and only (as far as we know) Earwa is somehow a little merged with the outside (magic is possible and the gods have more power on it).
And as I said, the IF could observe the outside, with tekne only and on anarcane groud, by finding the link between reality/outside through souls. And it make sens it would be a read-only device as there is no "merging (arcane)" on their home planet.
How would you classify "read-only" in respect to reality? I ask the question, because I feel the term is not at all applicable. If you look at how read-only works for technology, you will see direct physical interaction, just structured in a specific way due to technological need and constraints. It's the same with the Outside. If souls are connected to it, then the connection exists and can be manipulated, which is evidenced by the Inverse Fire.
The strength of the connection is irrelevant to the question. For the lack of better definition and presuming stuff, let's say it's stronger on arcane grounds, so you can access it with just your mind and words, through sorcery. But fundamentally nothing has changed. The Outside exists, objectively. It's an intrinsic part of the Universe of TSA, it exists everywhere. And is accessible everywhere, only means differ. The Inverse Fire accesses it through Tekne.
That's why anarcane grounds do not save anyone from damnation.
-
That's pretty much what I said I think:
- Outside exist everywhere
- Everyone is damned
- But the connection is powerful on Earwa so you can do magic and gods can do some stuff
- And it's weak on Progenitors world so you can just watch your damnation through the IF and gods know you're here but can't do shit to you
Or did I understood you wrong?
-
Or did I understood you wrong?
My issue is with the "read-only" part of your views. What I mean by a connection is a possibility of interaction that goes invariably both ways.
For it to be different, something needs to not be a part of the system of reality and at the same time influence that system, which is a paradox.
-
Or did I understood you wrong?
My issue is with the "read-only" part of your views. What I mean by a connection is a possibility of interaction that goes invariably both ways.
For it to be different, something needs to not be a part of the system of reality and at the same time influence that system, which is a paradox.
What I meant is that the string connecting the outside and the reality is so weak that you can observe it, but can't do much.
No magic/gods involvement for anarcane weak connection, but still a way to watch your damnation through the IF/be watched by the gods.
-
That's pretty much what I said I think:
- Outside exist everywhere
- Everyone is damned
- But the connection is powerful on Earwa so you can do magic and gods can do some stuff
- And it's weak on Progenitors world so you can just watch your damnation through the IF and gods know you're here but can't do shit to you
Or did I understood you wrong?
Yeah, the Inverse Fire is something of a window a mirror that reflects back your soul through the lens of the Outside. In fact, thinking about it now, I don't think the Inverse Fire actually shows you the Outside. Rather, it shows you the view of yourself from the perspective of an Outside observer.
In other words, you'd never see any entities from the Outside through the Inverse Fire, because you are only viewing yourself from the perspective of the Outside. In this sense, I think the idea of it as being some of "read-only" is apt. The Inverse Fire allows only a perspective/frame change, not an actual view of the Outside itself, or anything in it (aside your own soul).
-
What I meant is that the string connecting the outside and the reality is so weak that you can observe it, but can't do much.
No magic/gods involvement for anarcane weak connection, but still a way to watch your damnation through the IF/be watched by the gods.
I do not feel we can make this leap of logic with the information available. The connection exists and can be accessed. It is accessed by the Inverse Fire. Presuming that there is no potential way to use that connection for something else, like influencing the Outside in some way, is much more than I'm comfortable doing.
Granted, it might have been the case for the Progenitors, in the sense that all they could achieve was looking into the Outside. But in my eyes it's a technological limitation that says nothing about the actual scope of possibilities.
-
What I meant is that the string connecting the outside and the reality is so weak that you can observe it, but can't do much.
No magic/gods involvement for anarcane weak connection, but still a way to watch your damnation through the IF/be watched by the gods.
I do not feel we can make this leap of logic with the information available. The connection exists and can be accessed. It is accessed by the Inverse Fire. Presuming that there is no potential way to use that connection for something else, like influencing the Outside in some way, is much more than I'm comfortable doing.
Granted, it might have been the case for the Progenitors, in the sense that all they could achieve was looking into the Outside. But in my eyes it's a technological limitation that says nothing about the actual scope of possibilities.
Well, we know that you can't do magic on Anarcane ground and that the world of the Progenitors is anarcane. And we know that the Progenitors weren't aware of anything metaphysical before the IF.
The gods flavor their souls-snacks with worshiping, so I think if they could have made the Progenitors worship them by showing up as they do in Earwa, they would have.
So I think it's safe to say that the interaction between the outside and the reality on the Progenitors world is not that great. And it would make sens that the Progenitors would have thought about all possible way of doing something about the outside from home, before sending a big ship with living weapon to rampage planets hoping to close the outside.
Yes, it's just assumptions, but it find it most likely.
-
Yes, it's just assumptions, but it find it most likely.
No, no, I find your logic quite sound, I just wanted to outline some things I consider important, which was made possible by your posts.
I actually have a completely different theory about why the Gods don't, presumably (it is my presumption, too), appear to the Progenitors and quite possibly to the Nonmen, also. At least not in the capacity they appear to Men in. I think the Gods of TSA are exclusively the Gods of Men, and so have no love for anyone else.
That's why I'm a tremendous fan of everything that happened in Ishterebinth, it offers so much insight into Nonmen religion or what passes for it.
[EDIT] Oh, and that would, incidentally, be why Earwa is the Promised World.
-
Yes, it's just assumptions, but it find it most likely.
No, no, I find your logic quite sound, I just wanted to outline some things I consider important, which was made possible by your posts.
I actually have I completely different theory about why the Gods don't, presumably (it is my presumption, too), appear to the Progenitors and quite possibly to Nonmen, also. At least not in the same capacity as they appear to Men in. I think the Gods of TSA are exclusively the Gods of Men, and so have no love for anyone else.
That's why I'm a tremendous fan of everything that happened in Ishterebinth, it offers so much insight into Nonmen religion or what passes for it.
Never thought of that, I just imagined that the nonmen said fuck off when they discovered their are gods (and as I said that the Progenitors just couldn't even know they exist) while the humans start to worship them because... well... because they are gods.
-
Never thought of that, I just imagined that the nonmen said fuck off when they discovered their are gods (and as I said that the Progenitors just couldn't even know they exist) while the humans start to worship them because... well... because they are gods.
Well, there are hints that the Nonmen worshiped them as principles, probably until men "elevated" them to gods. For all we know, that might mean the 100 were different then, to some degree or other. Maybe less intercessional?
-
Well, there are hints that the Nonmen worshiped them as principles, probably until men "elevated" them to gods. For all we know, that might mean the 100 were different then, to some degree or other. Maybe less intercessional?
I don't think the Nonmen worshiped the Gods. I think the Nonmen were aware of their objective existence. It wasn't religion, it was personification as an artistic trope.
-
No, we're not saying all souls don't end up in the Outside. What were saying is, and this completely wipes out your theory, is that Earwa is the only planet with a connection to the Outside.
By the Glossary definition the Inverse Fire is a connection to the Outside stated to work not only on Earwa, but on other planets and in space, on the Ark while it was in transit. How do you reconcile it with your view of the Outside?
I also don't get how souls from other worlds (the worlds not connected to the Outside as presented in your theory) end up in the Outside. If they end up there, then the connection exists by definition.
I'm with SL on this. To me, the idea of anarcane ground is largely irrelevent - it just stops people from manipulating the world using their voice. I seriously doubt that it does anything to Ajokli and his ilk - though strangely the No-God avoided it, so, not sure how that fits in.
In other words, you'd never see any entities from the Outside through the Inverse Fire, because you are only viewing yourself from the perspective of the Outside.
Mirror, maybe, but this bit doesn't make sense. Don't we know for a fact that people see all kinds of entities in the outside? What kind of mirror shows reflections of thousands that aren't standing in front of it?
-
Well, there are hints that the Nonmen worshiped them as principles, probably until men "elevated" them to gods. For all we know, that might mean the 100 were different then, to some degree or other. Maybe less intercessional?
I don't think the Nonmen worshiped the Gods. I think the Nonmen were aware of their objective existence. It wasn't religion, it was personification as an artistic trope.
Well, I think it is a little more than just an artistic trope. I just don't think they'd refer to them as "Principles" in that case. While they didn't worship them as gods, they were seemingly still important. Perhaps the 100 "Principles" were sort of like the 10 Commandments, not in the sense of laws, but rather, conceptions of acceptable (and unacceptable) behavior?
So, you don't worship the Fertility Principle, but if you want to be fertile, you had better know what it wants/demands/exacts.
-
I'm with SL on this. To me, the idea of anarcane ground is largely irrelevent - it just stops people from manipulating the world using their voice. I seriously doubt that it does anything to Ajokli and his ilk - though strangely the No-God avoided it, so, not sure how that fits in.
Well, it is possible that, as my pet theory that Anarcane ground was a "hole" in the No-God's vision hypothesized, so it is also a hole in the vision of the 100. Just like things you don't see, they are still there, but not capable of being attended to. This might be why the gods are so much more active on Eärwa, rather than anywhere else. It's a place of their maximal perception.
In other words, you'd never see any entities from the Outside through the Inverse Fire, because you are only viewing yourself from the perspective of the Outside.
Mirror, maybe, but this bit doesn't make sense. Don't we know for a fact that people see all kinds of entities in the outside? What kind of mirror shows reflections of thousands that aren't standing in front of it?
But do they see them in the Inverse Fire?
Does the Inverse Fire show everyone thousands?
Serious questions, I am old and don't recall.
-
Well, I think it is a little more than just an artistic trope. I just don't think they'd refer to them as "Principles" in that case.
But that's just the definition of personification:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropomorphism
Personification is the related attribution of human form and characteristics to abstract concepts such as nations, emotions and natural forces like seasons and the weather.
-
Oops, clicked the 'modify' button on a post other than my. Sorry H!
For clarity, this is what I meant to add to the bottom of my last post:
That's pretty much what I said I think:
- Outside exist everywhere
- Everyone is damned
- But the connection is powerful on Earwa so you can do magic and gods can do some stuff
I don't think I, or anyone, is contesting those points.
- And it's weak on Progenitors world so you can just watch your damnation through the IF and gods know you're here but can't do shit to you
I don't get this part though.
Either its so weak the humans/gods cant interact, or its not that weak and there is some interaction. That interaction is what allows the IF.
Seems unlikely that the IF is an exception to the rule: the rule that stops humans/mundane-creatures from access to the Outside without magic. So the proginators built the soggomatic ring and covered it with suspiciously runic circuitry - and Ajokli flipped the magic switch on when they pressed 'go'.
In other words, you'd never see any entities from the Outside through the Inverse Fire, because you are only viewing yourself from the perspective of the Outside.
Mirror, maybe, but this bit doesn't make sense. Don't we know for a fact that people see all kinds of entities in the outside? What kind of mirror shows reflections of thousands that aren't standing in front of it?
But do they see them in the Inverse Fire?
Does the Inverse Fire show everyone thousands?
Serious questions, I am old and don't recall.
I think so. My recollection of the IF descriptions is that everyone sees legions of suffering.
I think its Mek that tells Kellhus to look into the IF and asks him 'have you found yourself', or some such. The implication is that while everyone has eventually found themselves, its not an immediate thing of them standing on their own, but in a crowed of some kind.
I think?
-
Well, I think it is a little more than just an artistic trope. I just don't think they'd refer to them as "Principles" in that case.
But that's just the definition of personification:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropomorphism
Personification is the related attribution of human form and characteristics to abstract concepts such as nations, emotions and natural forces like seasons and the weather.
I'm not following. Calling them Principles is personification? I'd think that it was Men who personified the 100, not Nonmen, who thought of them as abstract conceptual principles.
-
I'm not following. Calling them Principles is personification? I'd think that it was Men who personified the 100, not Nonmen, who thought of them as abstract conceptual principles.
Due to this entry in TUC Glossary I came to the conclusion that the Gods were personified by the Nonmen, too:
Hoar-Pelt—White bear-skin mantle that the Kings of Viri wore instead of a crown, rumoured to be a gift of Hûsyelt, Dark Hunter.
-
I'm with SL on this. To me, the idea of anarcane ground is largely irrelevent - it just stops people from manipulating the world using their voice. I seriously doubt that it does anything to Ajokli and his ilk - though strangely the No-God avoided it, so, not sure how that fits in.
Well, it is possible that, as my pet theory that Anarcane ground was a "hole" in the No-God's vision hypothesized, so it is also a hole in the vision of the 100. Just like things you don't see, they are still there, but not capable of being attended to. This might be why the gods are so much more active on Eärwa, rather than anywhere else. It's a place of their maximal perception.
This is kiind of a tangential discussion as well, but in my mind the No-God is meant to be an inversion of the Gods in some way. I don't understand that fully, as the nature of the Gods themselves is unclear lol, but if I take that thought and the one you presented above:
If anarcane ground is where the God(s) see most clearly and therefore rendering the use of humans (inchoroi, nonmen, etc) changing the world impossible, then I think it makes complete sense that the No-God cannot see the anarcane ground at all? Though, that implies that the No-God as it exists on earwa would either be impossible to start up elsewhere, or that if started it wouldn't be able to see anything - instead of asking 'WHO' it would ask 'WHERE'
-
If anarcane ground is where the God(s) see most clearly and therefore rendering the use of humans (inchoroi, nonmen, etc) changing the world impossible, then I think it makes complete sense that the No-God cannot see the anarcane ground at all? Though, that implies that the No-God as it exists on earwa would either be impossible to start up elsewhere, or that if started it wouldn't be able to see anything - instead of asking 'WHO' it would ask 'WHERE'
It might be that anarcane grounds stop the divine. My theory is, the No-God is an entity of the Outside, an inverse, non-conscious God. This way it just can't operate on anarcane grounds.
-
It might be that anarcane grounds stop the divine. My theory is, the No-God is an entity of the Outside, an inverse, non-conscious God. This way it just can't operate on anarcane grounds.
I don't understand, intellectually, the discussion surrounding consciousness very well (as a general rule it seems), but also specifically in regards to the No-God.
That said, Bakker has called the No-God a p-zombie (whatever that is), but also said in his podcast with Stuff to Blow Your Mind that the Gods were something like what a physical manifestations of our own subconscious ... or something like that. Neither description does me much good lol, but I thought you might find it helpful?
-
I don't understand, intellectually, the discussion surrounding consciousness very well (as a general rule it seems), but also specifically in regards to the No-God.
That said, Bakker has called the No-God a p-zombie (whatever that is), but also said in his podcast with Stuff to Blow Your Mind that the Gods were something like what a physical manifestations of our own subconscious ... or something like that. Neither description does me much good lol, but I thought you might find it helpful?
Thank you, I'm aware of those things, this is where my theory comes from. P-zombie is basically a human that lacks some undefined quality that makes us human. P-zombie can perfectly imitate a human being while not being one. I consider the No-God to be the same concept, only applied to the Gods.
In this sense, the nature of consciousness is not even explored. Whatever it is, the No-God possesses the opposite of it, non-consciousness. What I think would happen after the world is reduced to the blessed 144k is the context of the Outside is going to be changed. Remade to be governed by a non-conscious entity (the No-God) instead of conscious ones (the Gods). The No-God cannot perceive itself, so its dominion over the Heavens and the Hells would be an empty one; it cannot eat anything, because it cannot add to what it can't see. Damnation and salvation are thus ruled out, leaving only Oblivion.
Seems more or less internally consistent. I also like how absolutely irrelevant it is to the actual story. Men of Earwa are truly in Crash Space, they have no idea why what happens around them happens. They don't understand it, they can't analyze it rationally, they can only react in the ways available to them, and those ways are spectacularly inadequate for the problems Earwa presents. I feel it illustrates Bakker's point perfectly.
-
Oops, clicked the 'modify' button on a post other than my. Sorry H!
For clarity, this is what I meant to add to the bottom of my last post:
That's pretty much what I said I think:
- Outside exist everywhere
- Everyone is damned
- But the connection is powerful on Earwa so you can do magic and gods can do some stuff
I don't think I, or anyone, is contesting those points.
- And it's weak on Progenitors world so you can just watch your damnation through the IF and gods know you're here but can't do shit to you
I don't get this part though.
Either its so weak the humans/gods cant interact, or its not that weak and there is some interaction. That interaction is what allows the IF.
Seems unlikely that the IF is an exception to the rule: the rule that stops humans/mundane-creatures from access to the Outside without magic. So the proginators built the soggomatic ring and covered it with suspiciously runic circuitry - and Ajokli flipped the magic switch on when they pressed 'go'.
Weak enough so that the only thing that happens is soul related (being born with a soul, being subject to judgement and therefore damnation) and the IF just observe this (as if you would observe a distant star but can't change its orbit). The gods can't do crazy stuffs like Yatwer geting out of the ground all muddy and distributing choraes.
But that's only my interpretation.
-
It might be that anarcane grounds stop the divine. My theory is, the No-God is an entity of the Outside, an inverse, non-conscious God. This way it just can't operate on anarcane grounds.
I don't understand, intellectually, the discussion surrounding consciousness very well (as a general rule it seems), but also specifically in regards to the No-God.
That said, Bakker has called the No-God a p-zombie (whatever that is), but also said in his podcast with Stuff to Blow Your Mind that the Gods were something like what a physical manifestations of our own subconscious ... or something like that. Neither description does me much good lol, but I thought you might find it helpful?
Like a chat-bot, but much more complex. It can interact, take decision, and you can't say if it's a real person or not, but it doesn't have any self-awareness.
You take inputs, you process it, you send output.
In the other hand, the gods are all self-awarness, so much that they can create their own reality (hell/heaven), if I get it right.
-
I question the assumption that the No-God is non-conscious or wholly lacking self-awareness. It's aware of its own existence, asks questions about its existence, and even uses 1st person pronouns. I think rather that the No-God is blind to itself, but is not blind to its blindness, because why else with ALL THE QUESTIONS?
For all we know, the "voice" of the No-God is simply the desperate vocalizations of a trapped soul, stuck in a box, literally and metaphysically blind to its surroundings and actions. Perhaps the soul is merely the engine, the animus, necessary to power up the Object, but once the Object is powered and the No-God is operational, it's merely along for the ride.
-
I question the assumption that the No-God is non-conscious
This is not an assumption:
http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=1755.msg27801#msg27801
You would need to read that entire topic, though. But it's small.
or wholly lacking self-awareness.
This is part of the premise of the philosophical zombie thought experiments.
-
I might post something more substantial later, but for now...
Check out these excerpts from the discussion between Shae and Titirga in The False Sun. They are surely relevant to the argument about what, if anything, Ajokli had to do with the Inverse Fire:
“So that is the source of your madness,” Titirga said. “The Inverse Fire.”
[...]
“I know only what Nil’giccas told me. That Misariccas and Runidil returned shrieking–”
Yes. Shaeönanra had also shrieked… for a time. And wept.
“–and that Cet’ingira counselled his King to have them killed.”
A barking laugh. “And did he tell you why?”
A moment of fierce scrutiny.
“Because they could not be trusted. Because they had been ensorceled… Possessed.”
“No!” Shaeönanra heard himself cry. “No!” Could this be him, wagging his head like a fly-maddened ox, gesticulating like an old hag at funeral? “Because they had seen the Truth!”
Titirga gazed with undisguised distaste. “Such is the form of all possession. You know as mu–”
[...]
“Possessed, you tell yourselves. Possessed! We are different because we are no longer ourselves. You counsel the All-King to crack our Seal, destroy us and all we have toiled to achieve. Our Voices are polluted, unclean!” He threw his back in Feal laughter, cackled with spite and glee. “So tell me , if we are possessed, who is our new owner?”
“The Tekne,” the Archidemu Sohoncu said with grim confidence. “The Mangaecca have been enslaved. You have been enslaved.”
Shaeönanra blinked. Of course the fool was unmoved. Of course he had his reasons. No matter. This was indulgence, arguing like this, availing reason.
He warred with his expression–something between a grimace and a grin.”Yes… But who is our new master?”
A peculiar weariness haunted Titirga as he shook his maned head: one not so much of as for.
Feal, something whispered from his gaze.
“A lunatic God… perhaps. The Hells that you think you see. Something… Something adulterate, foul. Something that craves feasting, that hungers with an intensity that can bend the very Ground.”
Aurang had stood silent during this time, gazing down at the two bickering men. After the intimacies they had shared, it seemed Shaeönanra could sense the pulse of his passion. Lust in the lazy tumescence of his member. Impatience in the incline of his shield-long head. Hatred in the flicker of membranes…
“Does that not trouble you?” the Hero-Mage pressed. “That you have but one eye!”
Tedious. Tedious. Tedious.
“Why, Titirga?” Shaeönanra implored. “Why have you come here?” He shook his head, arguing with the floor. “Did you hope to show me my folly?” And it all seemed a pantomime, this incontinence of voice and expression. For beneath, he knew exactly what he needed to do. He could feel it, the certainty of snakes coiled in the darkness, the confidence of things that neither run nor sleep.”There’s no folly in what I do, I assure you. I know. I have seen!” He jerked his face back, squinting and scowling. “What are your reasons compared to this? Your guesses? Your rumours of a dead age?”
“But what, Shaeönanra? What is it you have seen? Your damnation or your goad?”
-
I question the assumption that the No-God is non-conscious
This is not an assumption:
http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=1755.msg27801#msg27801
You would need to read that entire topic, though. But it's small.
or wholly lacking self-awareness.
This is part of the premise of the philosophical zombie thought experiments.
I'm increasingly starting to disregard Bakker's proclamations regarding his work. Anyway, if the No-God is unaware and unconscious, then whence its questioning? I mean sure, I could program my computer to periodically "ask" the same questions asked by the No-God, and that wouldn't mean my computer has consciousness or self-awareness, but to claim that's what's going on with the No-God is simply... lame. Perhaps the soul within the No-God is a separate entity from the No-God? I think I like that interpretation best of all.
-
I'm increasingly starting to disregard Bakker's proclamations regarding his work. Anyway, if the No-God is unaware and unconscious, then whence its questioning? I mean sure, I could program my computer to periodically "ask" the same questions asked by the No-God, and that wouldn't mean my computer has consciousness or self-awareness, but to claim that's what's going on with the No-God is simply... lame. Perhaps the soul within the No-God is a separate entity from the No-God? I think I like that interpretation best of all.
I completely understand your problem with the premise, but it is what it is:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_zombie
Bakker's just using it basically as is.
-
don't get this part though.
Why? Why don't you get this. If Gods do exist in our world/UNIVERSE, there is no connection here, same as with the Inchoroi's home planet. Its not that hard to comprehend. The progenitors delved too deep, created a looking glass into hell. Something, in sure many of the scientists around here would be ecstatic for. Maybe not their damnation, yet again, who knows what Mimara or Esme would see looking at the IF.
-
I might post something more substantial later, but for now...
Check out these excerpts from the discussion between Shae and Titirga in The False Sun. They are surely relevant to the argument about what, if anything, Ajokli had to do with the Inverse Fire:
“So that is the source of your madness,” Titirga said. “The Inverse Fire.”
[...]
“I know only what Nil’giccas told me. That Misariccas and Runidil returned shrieking–”
Yes. Shaeönanra had also shrieked… for a time. And wept.
“–and that Cet’ingira counselled his King to have them killed.”
A barking laugh. “And did he tell you why?”
A moment of fierce scrutiny.
“Because they could not be trusted. Because they had been ensorceled… Possessed.”
“No!” Shaeönanra heard himself cry. “No!” Could this be him, wagging his head like a fly-maddened ox, gesticulating like an old hag at funeral? “Because they had seen the Truth!”
Titirga gazed with undisguised distaste. “Such is the form of all possession. You know as mu–”
[...]
“Possessed, you tell yourselves. Possessed! We are different because we are no longer ourselves. You counsel the All-King to crack our Seal, destroy us and all we have toiled to achieve. Our Voices are polluted, unclean!” He threw his back in Feal laughter, cackled with spite and glee. “So tell me , if we are possessed, who is our new owner?”
“The Tekne,” the Archidemu Sohoncu said with grim confidence. “The Mangaecca have been enslaved. You have been enslaved.”
Shaeönanra blinked. Of course the fool was unmoved. Of course he had his reasons. No matter. This was indulgence, arguing like this, availing reason.
He warred with his expression–something between a grimace and a grin.”Yes… But who is our new master?”
A peculiar weariness haunted Titirga as he shook his maned head: one not so much of as for.
Feal, something whispered from his gaze.
“A lunatic God… perhaps. The Hells that you think you see. Something… Something adulterate, foul. Something that craves feasting, that hungers with an intensity that can bend the very Ground.”
Aurang had stood silent during this time, gazing down at the two bickering men. After the intimacies they had shared, it seemed Shaeönanra could sense the pulse of his passion. Lust in the lazy tumescence of his member. Impatience in the incline of his shield-long head. Hatred in the flicker of membranes…
“Does that not trouble you?” the Hero-Mage pressed. “That you have but one eye!”
Tedious. Tedious. Tedious.
“Why, Titirga?” Shaeönanra implored. “Why have you come here?” He shook his head, arguing with the floor. “Did you hope to show me my folly?” And it all seemed a pantomime, this incontinence of voice and expression. For beneath, he knew exactly what he needed to do. He could feel it, the certainty of snakes coiled in the darkness, the confidence of things that neither run nor sleep.”There’s no folly in what I do, I assure you. I know. I have seen!” He jerked his face back, squinting and scowling. “What are your reasons compared to this? Your guesses? Your rumours of a dead age?”
“But what, Shaeönanra? What is it you have seen? Your damnation or your goad?”
Very nice catch. Definitely sounds like a foreshadowing of Ajokli's take over, but it can also refer to the No-God which for example has been called "Angel of Endless Hunger" (extremely fucking metal). I wouldn't be surprised if this ambiguity is very much intended by Bakker.
-
I don't understand, intellectually, the discussion surrounding consciousness very well (as a general rule it seems), but also specifically in regards to the No-God.
That said, Bakker has called the No-God a p-zombie (whatever that is), but also said in his podcast with Stuff to Blow Your Mind that the Gods were something like what a physical manifestations of our own subconscious ... or something like that. Neither description does me much good lol, but I thought you might find it helpful?
Thank you, I'm aware of those things, this is where my theory comes from. P-zombie is basically a human that lacks some undefined quality that makes us human. P-zombie can perfectly imitate a human being while not being one. I consider the No-God to be the same concept, only applied to the Gods.
In this sense, the nature of consciousness is not even explored. Whatever it is, the No-God possesses the opposite of it, non-consciousness. What I think would happen after the world is reduced to the blessed 144k is the context of the Outside is going to be changed. Remade to be governed by a non-conscious entity (the No-God) instead of conscious ones (the Gods). The No-God cannot perceive itself, so its dominion over the Heavens and the Hells would be an empty one; it cannot eat anything, because it cannot add to what it can't see. Damnation and salvation are thus ruled out, leaving only Oblivion.
Seems more or less internally consistent. I also like how absolutely irrelevant it is to the actual story. Men of Earwa are truly in Crash Space, they have no idea why what happens around them happens. They don't understand it, they can't analyze it rationally, they can only react in the ways available to them, and those ways are spectacularly inadequate for the problems Earwa presents. I feel it illustrates Bakker's point perfectly.
I'd say it's the other way around. Those "metacognitive heuristics" are adept in the Earwan situation precisely because meaning/metaphysics are real things. It is the Ark/No-God that presents the crash-space.
don't get this part though.
Why? Why don't you get this. If Gods do exist in our world/UNIVERSE, there is no connection here, same as with the Inchoroi's home planet. Its not that hard to comprehend. The progenitors delved too deep, created a looking glass into hell. Something, in sure many of the scientists around here would be ecstatic for. Maybe not their damnation, yet again, who knows what Mimara or Esme would see looking at the IF.
If there's no connection you cannot be damned. Arcane/anarcane has something to do with whether God is "dreaming lucidly" in that particular place. Again, as has been said, the premise of the story is that Gods/meaning are real in this universe, unlike in our universe (from the perspective of Bakker).
-
I'd say it's the other way around. Those "metacognitive heuristics" are adept in the Earwan situation precisely because meaning/metaphysics are real things. It is the Ark/No-God that presents the crash-space.
It's not the question of them being adept. They are obviously extremely useful. But only in certain situations, presented, more or less, by biology. At least this is what Bakker reiterates time and again over at TPB.
Earwa presents problems that are grounded in cognition and consciousness, which humans cannot understand from their cognitive and conscious perspective. It's akin to the No-God not seeing itself. You see the world around you, but never do you see the workings of your eyes.
At least that's what I gather from Bakker's non-fictional writing.
-
don't get this part though.
Why? Why don't you get this. If Gods do exist in our world/UNIVERSE, there is no connection here, same as with the Inchoroi's home planet. Its not that hard to comprehend. The progenitors delved too deep, created a looking glass into hell. Something, in sure many of the scientists around here would be ecstatic for. Maybe not their damnation, yet again, who knows what Mimara or Esme would see looking at the IF.
If there's no connection you cannot be damned. Arcane/anarcane has something to do with whether God is "dreaming lucidly" in that particular place. Again, as has been said, the premise of the story is that Gods/meaning are real in this universe, unlike in our universe (from the perspective of Bakker).
Yeah I'm with Teilaxu. There either is a connection, or there isn't - I think its that simple.
If the Gods exist and if souls exist, then there is a connection to the Outside. If there is a connection, then the Outside can conceivably influence the Inside, and vice versa. That's really all there is to it.
We know the first two statements are true (Gods and Souls exist), so therefore a connection must exist. It can't be that the connection only exists on Earwa, because then damnation would only exist on Earwa. Since the Inchoroi/whoever found out they were damned when they weren't on Earwa, we must conclude that the connection between Outside and Inside is universal.
From there, the rest of the discussion follows, no need to rehash that.
Conversely, if there is no connection, there cannot be souls or Gods. And without souls or Gods, there is obviously nothing to connect the inside and the outside - there's no outside to even discuss.
Anyway, I'm not trying to convince you of anything. If you don't think there's a connection, that's fine, but what I'm saying is that the entire discussion comes from the assumption that there is a connection between the Outside and Inside in the whole universe. Its not an illogical assumption I pulled out of thin air, and can be explained simply - though that doesn't mean its correct or that you have to agree with it.
-
I think it stands to reason though that it would be the case for the nature of the Outside-Inside relationship to be different for placed besides Eärwa. If it wasn't, how did the Progenitors get so far but not realize the Outside was real? It seems very unlikely that the gods can function the same everywhere else, when we know that Eärwa is the exception.
-
I'm increasingly starting to disregard Bakker's proclamations regarding his work. Anyway, if the No-God is unaware and unconscious, then whence its questioning? I mean sure, I could program my computer to periodically "ask" the same questions asked by the No-God, and that wouldn't mean my computer has consciousness or self-awareness, but to claim that's what's going on with the No-God is simply... lame. Perhaps the soul within the No-God is a separate entity from the No-God? I think I like that interpretation best of all.
I completely understand your problem with the premise, but it is what it is:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_zombie
Bakker's just using it basically as is.
Yes, I'm familiar with the concept. I just find it to be lame and bad storytelling. Look, we all know why the No-God asks those questions in ALL CAPS. Because it's badass. Because it's cool. Because it's terrifying.
But by claiming the No-God is unaware of its existence, Bakker turns the No-God into just a chatty cathy doll. There's nothing asking the questions because there's nothing there other than a speaker belching pre-programmed lines. This is a good example of how Bakker's need to insert his philosophy into his story makes the story worse.
-
I think it stands to reason though that it would be the case for the nature of the Outside-Inside relationship to be different for placed besides Eärwa. If it wasn't, how did the Progenitors get so far but not realize the Outside was real? It seems very unlikely that the gods can function the same everywhere else, when we know that Eärwa is the exception.
Spot on. They didn't even know about sorcery when they landed on Earwa. Planet X (now the name for Inchoroi homeland) doesn't have to be connected to the Outside for their souls to go there. Earwa just has a DIRECT link is all. The progenitors are us, Bakker all but confirmed this. So, it's telling that their world is just like ours. No gods interfering or manifesting. No sorcery. But, most of us believe our soul will go somewhere when we're dead.
It's like the hadron collider, who knows what secrets of the Universe might come from that thing. That thing scares me, its digging too deep, just like the progenitors.
Really, I don't see how what I'm suggestion is hard to comprehend. Planet X had no direct link to the Outside, Gods couldn't meddle. Progenitors went searching for a planet with a direct link after they dug too deep and found the IF. Ajokli all the way down is waaaay more far-fetched then Kellhus still acting upon the TTT. I liked that post by the way, and would make for a great story. A true turn of events. We all knew the whirlwind was coming, not that big of a surprise.
-
To me the No-God's questions seem to be basically the manifestation of it's "hunger" to BE, it's simply functioning as it must in the only way it can due to it's construction/components and it's pre-determined programming. We know Kelmomas' brain is different from others' which is the reason he is a viable Insertant. The No-God's questions sound like they're from one twin to the other. Without the constant input from the bodily-active/first-person twin's thoughts, the second twin is left baying at the gates so to speak. "Neither of them" can know that they "both" suffer the same fate. To THEM (if such a statement is applicable) I assume it feels like they've been cut-off from one another, this being the cause of the No-God's "hunger", the desire to be whole again... TO BE.
Parentheses because we know they constantly swap; "Kelmomas" as watched/Object, "Samarmus" as watcher/Subject. Now they're at once both, and neither of these things. Zero and One.
I'm sure there was a lot of discussion about it already, but there's clearly something up with the Judging Eye and the No-God. Scenes where TJE opened in the Great Ordeal mention "Sranc squealing in the black" and the like. Most believable for me is that the Judging Eye only exists due to the No-God existing (and thus it exists/has existed retroactively). Some of you would probably be able to conceptualize it better, but for lack of a better way to share the thought I'll do my best.
TNG collapsing of Kel/Sam certainily ruined the God of God's cycle, it glitched the system and "woke" the God. We know for sure that only women who give birth to still-born children have TJE, but I think that twins are a part of that requirement as well. Because Mimara would have the twins she carries, she has TJE and thus has had/will have it her whole life... maybe not ONLY because one would die, but SPECIFICALLY because of that circumstance in addition to the No-God doing its subject-object collapse. I think, due to souls sharing the same space, that the collapse of Kel and Sam somehow also happens to Mimara's twins... blinding the Judging Eye in the same way that we're blind to how our brains work. Seeing, feeling, understanding how our brains do what they do is not a function of our brains, and I believe here that seeing, feeling, understanding itself is not a function of the God.
What could this mean? Hell, anything. But sounds logical to me that the world being Shut and the lack of new (live) births makes sense if you are willing to entertain the thought that at this time (post-Resumption), the "shared space" that's orthogonal to Bios, has collapsed into ONE place... ALL souls, or at least the remaining/unclaimed Portion were born into Mimara's baby?
Can't forget to include!
The Ark, The Inchoroi, The Progenitors - Okay, I am going to go ahead and jump into the clearly less popular opinion and side with Ajencis, that genius dude who was like "Wait wtf? There's no way they flew to other planets!" due to the identical locations of stars when charted from different corners of the World. "The stars would move relative one another were they not uniformly embedded in a sphere hanging a fixed distance about the Sky."
....Okay, yeah Ajencis might not be aware of Tekne and it's possibilities... but I am far more inclined to trust in him (and his statement about the stars/sky/universe) than the Inchoroi. In Ajencis' Glossary entry in TUC, this line caught my eye in regards to the discussions in this thread: "In fact, he observed that most individuals posses no criteria whatsoever for their beliefs" - which I include here specifically because the Inverse Fire is seemingly ALL the Inchoroi are basing their beliefs on (that and whatever "programming" their Bios was crafted with). The Mutilated claim they "outlived their origins" or some such, but who is to say that they ever knew their origins? They are a creation, that much is obvious... but truly, what reason have we to believe in "Progenitors", or believe that a weapon race like the Inchoroi would A.) Tell the truth if they knew it or B.) KNOW in the first place?
The Inchoroi are doing no more or less than what their Goad(s) call upon them to do - they create the No-God, they wake the God. Who wants to wake the God? The Vision/no-haloes Kellhus! (Which I think is Outside-Kellhus, but could certainly be a lot of other Things.)
The tapestry thingy that was flashing a code of sorts which only WLW/Sorweel (right?) and Kellhus could see/read = I can't help but think Kellhus made the Inverse Fire.
Got way too much to add as usual and this is more than enough for one post. :P
ETA: There's no real need for "Progenitors" or actual other worlds/Grounds from my perspective. The Inchies are probably deceived. The Nail is where the Ark came from and it could be the Outside as much as it could be a Wormhole, or from Earwa's past/future, I hope we find out!
-
I think it stands to reason though that it would be the case for the nature of the Outside-Inside relationship to be different for placed besides Eärwa. If it wasn't, how did the Progenitors get so far but not realize the Outside was real? It seems very unlikely that the gods can function the same everywhere else, when we know that Eärwa is the exception.
Realizing damnation exists is hard when supernatural phenomena aren't beating you over the head every day. They had mastered everything when they realized that there was something orthogonal to the real going on. But in the end, as Emilidis made sorcerous artifacts without the mark, they managed to create technology interlinked with the Outside. Again, the fundamental premise of the story is that Gods are real, and as such they can act any way they please. Recall what Bakker says in the quote about the Dreaming God. In anarcane places, the God dreams lucidly, making co-opting his songs hard if not impossible. I.e. God is in some sense more "aware" here and you cannot sing fire out of thin air, but you can get sent to the pit for sure.
-
Really, I don't see how what I'm suggestion is hard to comprehend. Planet X had no direct link to the Outside, Gods couldn't meddle. Progenitors went searching for a planet with a direct link after they dug too deep and found the IF. Ajokli all the way down is waaaay more far-fetched then Kellhus still acting upon the TTT. I liked that post by the way, and would make for a great story. A true turn of events. We all knew the whirlwind was coming, not that big of a surprise.
You're talking about the strength of a connection (the existence of a direct link implies the possibility of an indirect one), while me and TLEILAXU are talking about the connection itself.
But by claiming the No-God is unaware of its existence, Bakker turns the No-God into just a chatty cathy doll. There's nothing asking the questions because there's nothing there other than a speaker belching pre-programmed lines. This is a good example of how Bakker's need to insert his philosophy into his story makes the story worse.
You lost me completely. This is only one way to understand the concept of philosophical zombie. Through a simple analogy that uses existing technology. The concept can be formulated more rigorously, which creates very interesting questions that, I feel, Bakker is trying to at least showcase.
The No-God is not at all made into a chat-bot by referring to it as a p-zombie and non-conscious.
-
The Ark, The Inchoroi, The Progenitors - Okay, I am going to go ahead and jump into the clearly less popular opinion and side with Ajencis, that genius dude who was like "Wait wtf? There's no way they flew to other planets!"
There is a slight problem with this line of thinking. Many of Bakker's extratextual comments outright state that the Inchoroi indeed came from outer space and the Progenitors do have a homeworld other than Earwa. One of those comments is what I started my participation in this thread with:
http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=2664.msg44236#msg44236
Personally, I feel like that entry from TUC Glossary is a jab at the scientific method and its genre fiction counterpart, Theory of Narrative Causality (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheoryOfNarrativeCausality) (my apologies if you weren't exposed to TVTropes before; we will see you in six months). Scientists try to devise their theories by only using the proven facts and writers are encouraged to use only the elements that are properly set up and foreshadowed in their plots. But that's not how the world works. We never know whether we possess enough information to make a sound theory, and if we try to make a theory with just the facts that we have right now, then said theory might be spectacularly wrong. For example, it's way more logical for Ajencis that there is no space or other worlds (the way it was completely logical for our own ancestors) and the out-of-context threat of the Inchoroi and the No-God Earwa faces is actually very much an in-context one, coming from the Outside and its agencies. But Ajencis knows exactly nothing about the Inchoroi, their Ark, their history, etc. He is not in possession of even a fraction of the information available to many other characters, let alone us, readers.
He uses incomplete data and shoehorns it in a theory that suits his worldview and beliefs.
You know, just like we here often do when we discuss TSA. Because we expect Theory of Narrative Causality to be in effect, for one thing. And also because proving something is a lot of work, not to mention it isn't always possible, which is compounded by different people making different leaps of logic that cannot be reconciled with each other. This is also why philosophy is mired in endless disputation.
Even when Wilshire advocates to first define the starting conditions of our theories, it might turn out to be completely unhelpful, because many theories are based on what's called primitive notions (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primitive_notion). Those exist even in the context of something as simple as a book series, for example TSA (that's not to say TSA is a simple book series, of course). But they also exist in geometry (depending on the axiom system it might be point, plane, line, etc.) or math in general (number), or physics (time).
Bakker seems to be very aware of all of the problems outlined above, and it's very much to my liking. I'm pretty sure he helped me to better educate myself.
-
Even when Wilshire advocates to first define the starting conditions of our theories, it might turn out to be completely unhelpful
Its always helpful in the sense that it gets people closer to talking about the same thing - not as a rigorous exercise to guarantee it, since that would include recursively deeper discussion on the darkness that comes before ;)
-
So I have this crazy theory about the Inchoroi.
The progenitors discovered through super advanced technology that they are damned. The idea that Ajoklis did it, is seductive but I don't buy it.
At the same time they figured out that they need to shut the Outside and the way of doing this is to reduce the population of a planet below a certain level. They kept doing that, but they kept failing because there was a catch. In order for the Outside to be shut, it had to be done in a certain way and the planet had to be fully arcane.
That certain way was the No-God. But the No-God could only work in a planet that was fully arcane and the connection to the Outside was the strongest. They found partially arcane planets and they did reduce the population to the required number but every time they failed. Because it wasn't just the number but also the way to achieve this. So finally they figured out that they needed to deploy a special tool, the No-God to shut the outside, but this could only happen in a planet which was arcane and where its inhabitant were proficient in the use of magic.
The Ark upon contact with Earwa malfunctioned and crashed because its design was not compatible with a fully arcane planet, causing its accidental crash. Remember it was constructed in a fully anarcane environment. During the fall and because of the great losses they suffered in the wars against Nomen, knowledge of the tekne of the No-God was "lost", that's why it too them so long to deploy him. Possibly the No-God needed some magic input in order to operate and without the ability of magic, they couldn't operate him.
At the same time crash landing on Earwa was a good thing, because the Inchoroi had finally arrived at an arcane planet, the promised land.
This OR the Inchoroi are just crazy psychopaths hell bent on killing other species out of lust and they merely use the excuse of redemption as an excuse, the rationalisation of rationalisations.
In any case, it is entirely possible that redemption the Inchie way is entirely false, because it has never been done and nobody really knows how it would work. In this sense it mirrors the elusive quest of the Dunyain to attain the absolute. The absolute is a mirage and so is redemption for all who join the crazy quest of the Inchies. They would be better off learning to meditate and follow the way of the Nonmen :P
And this in my mind sort of settles the most vexing question why was Earwa the promised land and how did they know?
-
@Khaine
Save for some nitpicking, this is pretty much my line of thinking.
One important thing to note is the fact that unarcane ground does, in fact, exist in Earwa, and the No-God famously avoided it.
-
@Khaine
Save for some nitpicking, this is pretty much my line of thinking.
One important thing to note is the fact that unarcane ground does, in fact, exist in Earwa, and the No-God famously avoided it.
I think we can actually sort of rectify this with the notion of Ark not working in Arcane situations. First, I think we just clarify that it is unlikely that Ark completely stopped functioning. I tend to think of it more as the AI (or, not so A I) that constituted Ark did not work under the Arcane conditions. That is, the "circuits" did not function.
So, when Ark crashes, many of Ark's various parts still function, there is simply no more intentionality, because the directive element (possibly the No-God apparatus itself) did not function. So, once "bootstrapped" with the Consult with an Earwa-compatible substitute "circuit" the opposite problem becomes the issue, an aversion to the Anarcane. In other words, it simply cannot function outside the particular circumstance of it's genesis, perhaps.
-
@Khaine
Save for some nitpicking, this is pretty much my line of thinking.
One important thing to note is the fact that unarcane ground does, in fact, exist in Earwa, and the No-God famously avoided it.
I think we can actually sort of rectify this with the notion of Ark not working in Arcane situations. First, I think we just clarify that it is unlikely that Ark completely stopped functioning. I tend to think of it more as the AI (or, not so A I) that constituted Ark did not work under the Arcane conditions. That is, the "circuits" did not function.
So, when Ark crashes, many of Ark's various parts still function, there is simply no more intentionality, because the directive element (possibly the No-God apparatus itself) did not function. So, once "bootstrapped" with the Consult with an Earwa-compatible substitute "circuit" the opposite problem becomes the issue, an aversion to the Anarcane. In other words, it simply cannot function outside the particular circumstance of it's genesis, perhaps.
All that, plus I would say despite the existence of unarcane grounds in Earwa, on balance it is a fully arcane planet, save the odd exception here and there. Whereas all the previous planets visited by the Inchoroi were only partially arcane and the connection to the Outside was not strong enough for the shutting down of the world to work properly. For the same reason, i.e. not coming across a fully arcane planet, the Ark had not malfunctioned earlier.
-
To clarify, my comment about the No-God wasn't meant as a contradiction. Myself, I saw it more as corroboration, but other interpretations have every right to exist.