The Second Apocalypse

Earwa => The Aspect-Emperor => The White-Luck Warrior => Topic started by: Madness on March 06, 2014, 04:28:14 am

Title: Sorcerous Artifacts
Post by: Madness on March 06, 2014, 04:28:14 am
Please help me document all historical and contemporary notation on sorcerous objects in the books :).
Title: Re: Sorcerous Artifacts
Post by: Alia on March 06, 2014, 06:32:37 am
First, just straight off my head - whore-shell. Yes, I know it's only mildly sorcerous and rather vulgar, but still.
Title: Re: Sorcerous Artifacts
Post by: Madness on March 06, 2014, 01:02:50 pm
It's mildly sorcerous and absolutely an object to be classified in our conversation here.

Agonic Circle (Anagogis - Scarlet Spires)
Agonic Collar (Gnosis - Mangaecca)
Chorae (Aporos)
Seeing-Flame (Presumably, Gnosis - Kellhus)
Ekkinu Tapestry (Presumably, Gnosis - Kellhus)
Worldhorn - (Gnosis - First Apocalypse/Twelve Gnostic Schools of Sauglish)

Gots to go.

One post. Good job me!
Title: Re: Sorcerous Artifacts
Post by: Meyna on March 06, 2014, 01:21:19 pm
Wathi Doll - ?
Title: Re: Sorcerous Artifacts
Post by: Madness on March 06, 2014, 02:02:54 pm
I didn't include that only because we have Weapons of Animata (http://second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=979.0) and we were initially distinguishing the two because one kind seems to require souls, animas, and the other kind, listed in this thread, don't seem to...

Mimara's knife and armour from the Coffers (Gnosis - Mihtrulic School of Sauglish; they seem to be producing the bulk of the ancient sorcerous objects).
Title: Re: Sorcerous Artifacts
Post by: Somnambulist on March 06, 2014, 03:23:59 pm
Malowebi's "twin mahogany figurines—the fetishes that made possible the Iswazi Cant"
Title: Re: Sorcerous Artifacts
Post by: themerchant on March 06, 2014, 08:10:37 pm


Big torch in false sun.
Title: Re: Sorcerous Artifacts
Post by: Madness on March 06, 2014, 08:35:23 pm
The Diurnal, themerchant.
Title: Re: Sorcerous Artifacts
Post by: Meyna on March 07, 2014, 01:12:49 pm
I didn't include that only because we have Weapons of Animata (http://second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=979.0) and we were initially distinguishing the two because one kind seems to require souls, animas, and the other kind, listed in this thread, don't seem to...

Ah, noted.
Title: Re: Sorcerous Artifacts
Post by: Madness on March 08, 2014, 01:06:12 pm
This is another of my favorite slip-ins by Bakker. So innocuously just writes:

Quote from: WLW, p848, CanPaper
The shining bronze sheets were gone - the Skûtiri. In Seswatha's day they had ringed the Turret's base, nine thousand, nine-hundred and ninety-nine of them, each taller than a man, and each scored with innumerable lines of sorcerous script.
Title: Re: Sorcerous Artifacts
Post by: Triskele on March 08, 2014, 09:38:43 pm
Atrithau.

 :P
Title: Re: Sorcerous Artifacts
Post by: mrganondorf on March 09, 2014, 01:44:12 am
Malowebi's "twin mahogany figurines—the fetishes that made possible the Iswazi Cant"

Reference please!!!

Nonman Chariots!

Mimara's Womb!

Dragons?

Skinspies produced by Moenghus and Sons.
Title: Re: Sorcerous Artifacts
Post by: Somnambulist on March 09, 2014, 06:39:27 am
Malowebi's "twin mahogany figurines—the fetishes that made possible the Iswazi Cant"

The White Luck Warrior, Kindle edition, position 6641 (about 63% into the book).
Title: Re: Sorcerous Artifacts
Post by: mrganondorf on March 09, 2014, 08:43:12 am
Thanks!  I have that in Ch 11 of WLW, pp376-7 US edition.  The devices seem to be what allows Malowebi to do far-calling.  Earwe's version of the mobile phone.  :)

Also add to the list--the physical/sorcerous gate to the library of Sauglish:

"The entrance to the Coffers.  To mundane eyes it was a wonder of scale and machination.  To arcane eyes it was nothing less than a miracle of interlocking deformities..."  WLW Chapter 1, p22 in US edition.

Oooh, and add the pouch from Yatwer where Sorweel hides a chorae.

Other possibly majik objects: the heron spear? the map case for ishual?

EDIT: Tried to remove the superfluous edit box and wanted to add--there's no mention of this object being magical, but it would fucking rock if it was: Enshoiya

EDIT2: Would like to add the Carapace.  Just caught up on reading the Weapons of Animata thread.  Help me out--it's not at all clear to me that there are magical objects apart from animata stuff.  I assumed everything magic had a soul trapped in it, Mimara's knife, the Chariots, Kellhus' pretty chair, etc.  Unwarranted assumption?
Title: Re: Sorcerous Artifacts
Post by: Madness on March 09, 2014, 01:16:32 pm
Thanks!  I have that in Ch 11 of WLW, pp376-7 US edition.  The devices seem to be what allows Malowebi to do far-calling.  Earwe's version of the mobile phone.  :)

Also add to the list--the physical/sorcerous gate to the library of Sauglish:

"The entrance to the Coffers.  To mundane eyes it was a wonder of scale and machination.  To arcane eyes it was nothing less than a miracle of interlocking deformities..."  WLW Chapter 1, p22 in US edition.

Oooh, and add the pouch from Yatwer where Sorweel hides a chorae.

Other possibly majik objects: the heron spear? the map case for ishual?

EDIT: Tried to remove the superfluous edit box and wanted to add--there's no mention of this object being magical, but it would fucking rock if it was: Enshoiya

EDIT2: Would like to add the Carapace.  Just caught up on reading the Weapons of Animata thread.  Help me out--it's not at all clear to me that there are magical objects apart from animata stuff. I assumed everything magic had a soul trapped in it, Mimara's knife, the Chariots, Kellhus' pretty chair, etc.  Unwarranted assumption?

Heron Spear is Tekne. Map-case for Ishual was covered in runes (don't remember if they were sorcerous, I will check at some point). The Pouch of the ancient Anasurimbor, yes. Carapace, maybe.

To the bold, it is unwarranted, so far, but the distinction could be solidified either way at this point. We need to wait for more text.
Title: Re: Sorcerous Artifacts
Post by: mrganondorf on March 15, 2014, 01:16:08 am
Malowebi's far-calling device seems to allow for two way connection between a sorcerer and a non-sorcerer.  That's neat.  I knew that a sorcerer could send a non-sorcerer a dream, but didn't know they could communicate without both being sorcerers.  This may explain Esmi's panic at Kellhus' embargo--she expected to see him nightly in her dreams?
Title: Re: Sorcerous Artifacts
Post by: Madness on March 15, 2014, 02:03:37 pm
It is unnerving that Kellhus himself wouldn't communicate.
Title: Re: Sorcerous Artifacts
Post by: mrganondorf on March 15, 2014, 05:42:47 pm
It is unnerving that Kellhus himself wouldn't communicate.

Esmi is so certain that the Great Ordeal hasn't failed even though she's not getting communications.  Wonder if he's sending her dreams that show his visual representation but no words.  Or he's sending her a specific unrelated dream (sex or maybe chocolate) and she knows that Kellhus is OK as long as she keeps getting them.
Title: Re: Sorcerous Artifacts
Post by: mrganondorf on March 19, 2014, 04:54:37 pm
I didn't see Seswatha's heart on this list.  Would be cool if anyone else was pulling this trick.  Maybe the Cishaurim do it with Fane's heart.
Title: Re: Sorcerous Artifacts
Post by: Madness on March 20, 2014, 09:38:56 am
Hmm... I didn't think about that but... would it be of animata as it probably requires a soul? I would assume Seswatha's soul but the way we burn through nerdanels around here.
Title: Re: Sorcerous Artifacts
Post by: mrganondorf on March 20, 2014, 10:54:22 am
Seswatha's heart + Nau-Cayuti's soul?
Title: Re: Sorcerous Artifacts
Post by: Madness on March 20, 2014, 12:20:29 pm
I don't know why people feel the need to bring Nau-Cayuti into it :P.
Title: Re: Sorcerous Artifacts
Post by: Wilshire on March 20, 2014, 04:04:28 pm
People like Nau. Let the dreamers dream.
Title: Re: Sorcerous Artifacts
Post by: Madness on March 20, 2014, 09:04:20 pm
Lol... hmm...
Title: Re: Sorcerous Artifacts
Post by: mrganondorf on March 22, 2014, 08:39:14 pm
It just struck me, who knows what Kellhus' limits are for his seeing flame?  He could be watching from every torch bracket from Momen to Golgotterath.  He just zooms in the view to only the Great Ordeal just before Proyas sticks his head in.  If Moe anticipated this, then there are few places in the world Kellhus can't spy in.  He can spy on the Zeumi king and in Ishterebinth.  He can't spy in the 1000 1000 halls.  Not until Akka lights a torch down there.  Which he will.  Because Kellhus has been conditioning him with dreams for years while observing the progress from Akka's hearth.  :)
Title: Re: Sorcerous Artifacts
Post by: Madness on March 24, 2014, 01:34:45 pm
Lol - you've reminded me of a scene from Herbert's Destination: Void. Which starts the non-Mormon version of the Worthing Saga (though, I should really say that WorShip is the precursor to the Worthing Saga).

But you've totally sold me on this idea that Kellhus is where torches are. But especially that he wants Achamian to light a torch in the Thousand Thousand Halls.
Title: Re: Sorcerous Artifacts
Post by: mrganondorf on March 26, 2014, 11:03:06 am
About Malowebi's far-calling devices, perhaps that kind of thing would let the Zeumi prince stay in contact with home.

Problems with that: Z isn't a sorcerer, so maybe he can't use the things OR it may be impossible for Zeum to reach him since he is on the move (if it works like far-calling and needs a compass).

If he has such devices, he may notice when Sorweel's little bag distorts the signal.  THUS, Zsoronga becomes convinced that HE is the narindar and that Yatwer was using Sorweel to position Z.

Whatever happens, I do hope we see some really smart people exploiting the potential of sorcerous artifacts more in TUC.  At Dagliash, Kellhus passes around magic lightning crossbows and bashrags swing flaming hammers.
Title: Re: Sorcerous Artifacts
Post by: Madness on March 26, 2014, 12:09:25 pm
However, unless Nganka'kull isn't of the Few. Then location might still make contacting Zsoronga impossible but we don't know enough about the limitations of Mbimayun sorcery.
Title: Re: Sorcerous Artifacts
Post by: mrganondorf on March 27, 2014, 01:51:35 pm
Really want to know more about the whore's shell.  If these are common objects, where do they come from?  Mysunsai made?  Local school stuff?  Witch made?  If witch made, then does that suggest some uneasy tolerance with keeping low level witches about for this kind of thing?
Title: Re: Sorcerous Artifacts
Post by: Somnambulist on March 27, 2014, 02:24:34 pm
No verification if it is indeed sorcerous, but possibly Meppa's silver enruned sunglasses headband thingamajig.  No other cish we've met has worn anything like that, so it must be important to some degree.  Right?
Title: Re: Sorcerous Artifacts
Post by: Wilshire on March 27, 2014, 06:26:49 pm
About Malowebi's far-calling devices, perhaps that kind of thing would let the Zeumi prince stay in contact with home.

Problems with that: Z isn't a sorcerer, so maybe he can't use the things OR it may be impossible for Zeum to reach him since he is on the move (if it works like far-calling and needs a compass).

If he has such devices, he may notice when Sorweel's little bag distorts the signal.  THUS, Zsoronga becomes convinced that HE is the narindar and that Yatwer was using Sorweel to position Z.

Whatever happens, I do hope we see some really smart people exploiting the potential of sorcerous artifacts more in TUC.  At Dagliash, Kellhus passes around magic lightning crossbows and bashrags swing flaming hammers.
Very nice, especially about there being no light in the Thousand Thousand Halls.


No verification if it is indeed sorcerous, but possibly Meppa's silver enruned sunglasses headband thingamajig.  No other cish we've met has worn anything like that, so it must be important to some degree.  Right?
Meppa is superstitious, its just a tinfoil hat to keep aliens form reading his mind.
Title: Re: Sorcerous Artifacts
Post by: Madness on March 27, 2014, 09:48:47 pm
Really want to know more about the whore's shell.  If these are common objects, where do they come from?  Mysunsai made?  Local school stuff?  Witch made?  If witch made, then does that suggest some uneasy tolerance with keeping low level witches about for this kind of thing?

Witch-made. And if there is ongoing persecution of Witches, then there are practicing Witches. Achamian also mentions fulfilling his Schoolmanly duty in killing a Sansori Witch.

No verification if it is indeed sorcerous, but possibly Meppa's silver enruned sunglasses headband thingamajig.  No other cish we've met has worn anything like that, so it must be important to some degree.  Right?

It's covered in renditions of waves, if I remember correctly?

Possibly sorcerous?
Title: Re: Sorcerous Artifacts
Post by: mrganondorf on March 27, 2014, 11:43:58 pm
No verification if it is indeed sorcerous, but possibly Meppa's silver enruned sunglasses headband thingamajig.  No other cish we've met has worn anything like that, so it must be important to some degree.  Right?

Fuck yeah, that's great!  It's a psukhe device that Old Moe uses to keep Meppa on mission.  Speaking of which, psukhe devices?  Nobody would know you have it until it you make it shoot out blue light.  Let's say Fanayal has a necklace that does this--melts Esmi in her skin.
Title: Re: Sorcerous Artifacts
Post by: Wilshire on March 28, 2014, 03:41:02 pm
No verification if it is indeed sorcerous, but possibly Meppa's silver enruned sunglasses headband thingamajig.  No other cish we've met has worn anything like that, so it must be important to some degree.  Right?

Fuck yeah, that's great!  It's a psukhe device that Old Moe uses to keep Meppa on mission.  Speaking of which, psukhe devices?  Nobody would know you have it until it you make it shoot out blue light.  Let's say Fanayal has a necklace that does this--melts Esmi in her skin.

I feel like this is why the Psuke was destroyed. It makes things too.... easy.
Title: Re: Sorcerous Artifacts
Post by: mrganondorf on April 09, 2014, 03:20:26 am
Sorweel's bag o' chorae?
Title: Re: Sorcerous Artifacts
Post by: Madness on April 09, 2014, 09:16:52 am
I think it is sorcerous over Yatwer :P. But now that you're skewing my brain, I have to suggest that perhaps the ancient Anasurimbor were blessed?
Title: Re: Sorcerous Artifacts
Post by: Wilshire on April 09, 2014, 02:54:54 pm
Well we've speculated crazier things, why not blessed? lol @ Kellhu's bloodline originally anointed/blessed by Yatwer/others
Title: Re: Sorcerous Artifacts
Post by: Cüréthañ on April 11, 2014, 12:18:35 am
What about the Tekne equivalents of sorcerous artifacts.  We tend to think of the tekne being limited to the bios and mundane style technology, but that is clearly not the case.

We have the Inverse fire for starters, a window to Hell made without the Daimos.  Think about that.
Title: Re: Sorcerous Artifacts
Post by: Madness on April 12, 2014, 12:17:23 pm
Don't cross the streams :P.

Tekne being able to "do" sorcery raises too many inconsistencies. Why don't the Inchoroi find sorcery on a world other than Earwa? Why wouldn't they accidently achieve a sorcerous reaction in all of their Teknescience? Why does the No-God require Chorae (Aporos) and whatever other Earwan sorceries to achieve existence?
Title: Re: Sorcerous Artifacts
Post by: Cüréthañ on April 12, 2014, 01:19:06 pm
Lol...
so what did the Inchies use to enable Aurang to use sorcery then? 

Grafted via the Tekne.

And a skin spy that can use sorcery, hmm... 
Synthese? The no-god?

All crafted by the Tekne and use sorcerous components.

The inverse fire?  Seriously - it shows you hell, same as the Daimos and the meta-gnosis.

Seems pretty consistent to me.

What's the important thing about Earwa? 
It's could be something like Arakis, possessed of a pure substance or quality of meaning that just doesn't occur anywhere else in the universe.
Or Earwan sorcery could simply be the result of the Inchies exterminating every other ensouled race in the universe.  Kind of concentrating the connection to the outside to Earwa because its the only place left where souls can be reborn.

We tend to assume that the outside is connected to Earwa, but it is primarily connected to souls.

Title: Re: Sorcerous Artifacts
Post by: mrganondorf on April 12, 2014, 08:13:03 pm
I think it would be strange if the Inchoroi could do any sorcery before Earwa/meeting the Aporetics.  So, how to explain the Inverse Fire?  Perhaps they found it somewhere or took it with them when they left (if they did) Earwa ages upon ages ago.  Maybe it's a new development--it's the thing that attracted them to Earwa and the first item they acquired after crashing or because of crashing. 

It's not impossible to me that the Inverse Fire is a window to hell and purely tekne, it would seem odd, but the Bakkerverse is so different from home.

I am hoping that the IF/tekne/sorcery is not made possible because the whole world is a simulation.  That would clear it all up though.  :(

EDIT: add to the list--whatever Kellhus uses to chop of demons' heads?  Could be a real special sword/guillotine/ax
Title: Re: Sorcerous Artifacts
Post by: Madness on April 15, 2014, 11:16:37 am
Lol...
so what did the Inchies use to enable Aurang to use sorcery then? 

Grafted via the Tekne.

This is unnecessarily confused. There are no Tekne Cants, Wards, or Glamours.
 
And a skin spy that can use sorcery, hmm... 
Synthese? The no-god?

All crafted by the Tekne and use sorcerous components.

The inverse fire?  Seriously - it shows you hell, same as the Daimos and the meta-gnosis.

Seems pretty consistent to me.

Through Iyokus we know that the Daimos can show you portions of the Outside - not necessarily hell. Also, when is the Metagnosis used to do anything related to hell, the Outside...?

What's the important thing about Earwa? 
It's could be something like Arakis, possessed of a pure substance or quality of meaning that just doesn't occur anywhere else in the universe.
Or Earwan sorcery could simply be the result of the Inchies exterminating every other ensouled race in the universe.  Kind of concentrating the connection to the outside to Earwa because its the only place left where souls can be reborn.

We tend to assume that the outside is connected to Earwa, but it is primarily connected to souls.

Well, the Inchoroi in TFS suggests that it is the Ground that is different...

I think it would be strange if the Inchoroi could do any sorcery before Earwa/meeting the Aporetics. 

They couldn't?

So, how to explain the Inverse Fire?

It's tecknology... How do our computers allow us to image a nebula light years away?
Title: Re: Sorcerous Artifacts
Post by: Wilshire on April 25, 2014, 02:25:16 pm

Or Earwan sorcery could simply be the result of the Inchies exterminating every other ensouled race in the universe.  Kind of concentrating the connection to the outside to Earwa because its the only place left where souls can be reborn.

We tend to assume that the outside is connected to Earwa, but it is primarily connected to souls.

I enjoy this idea/perspective quite a bit.
So, how to explain the Inverse Fire?

It's tecknology... How do our computers allow us to image a nebula light years away?

Advanced optics! Basically big mirrors focusing light :P. Thats a fit different than view an alternate dimension, though perhaps we just need bigger mirrors.
Title: Re: Sorcerous Artifacts
Post by: mrganondorf on April 26, 2014, 02:14:58 pm
@ Curethan, you said:

Quote
Earwan sorcery could simply be the result of the Inchies exterminating every other ensouled race in the universe.  Kind of concentrating the connection to the outside to Earwa because its the only place left where souls can be reborn.

SHIT!!!  That would explain why the Inchoroi technology is on the decline and why the Ark crashed and why Earwa is the promised land!  The Inchoroi are bruised and battered from interminable war and finally limp to the promised land, which they created, and are nearly extinguished because they are the ones that made it strong!  They GAVE Earwa sorcery (via being the last and most concentrated repository of souls), which the nonmen/men have used to battle them through the ages!  LOVE IT!!!

BONUS: That's why some animals have souls!  There are so many souls, they overflow the humans and nonmen and end up in animals!

ALSO BONUS: This would fit with Bakker's thing about science eradicating the intentional universe.  Teckne kills souls.  (soul repositories)

EDIT: I was quoting the wrong part of Curethan's post, now fixed.
Title: Re: Sorcerous Artifacts
Post by: Madness on April 28, 2014, 12:55:31 pm
So, how to explain the Inverse Fire?

It's tecknology... How do our computers allow us to image a nebula light years away?

Advanced optics! Basically big mirrors focusing light :P. Thats a fit different than view an alternate dimension, though perhaps we just need bigger mirrors.

+1 Bigger Mirrors: "We were looking to image nebula light years away... but we went too far. We discovered the Outside... and Damnation!"
Title: Re: Sorcerous Artifacts
Post by: Wilshire on May 02, 2014, 01:52:37 am
The age old questions, what lies beyond the universe (alternatively, if the universe is expanding, what is it expanding into).

Answer, the Outside lies outside the universe :P
Title: Re: Sorcerous Artifacts
Post by: mrganondorf on May 27, 2014, 03:09:08 am
If inscriptions can be a sign of sorcery on an object AND if objects can be sorcerous (or magicish) without being marked (like sorweel's pouch) then these two items might be sorcerous:  The Tusk and the Interval bell for the Great Ordeal.  Leave it to Kellhus to build a magic alarm clock for the army.
Title: Re: Sorcerous Artifacts
Post by: mrganondorf on July 02, 2014, 02:10:51 am
Did someone put Mimara's sun-skin mail on the list?  If the Nonmen recognize Akka in Nil'giccas' armor, I wonder if Mimara will be spotted wearing someone's stuff too.

Perhaps Cleric's pouch belongs on the list: "the Nonman King's rune-stamped pouch" p. 579, WLW, US hardback.  Maybe it's like Sorweel's pouch.
Title: Re: Sorcerous Artifacts
Post by: Triskele on November 23, 2014, 05:32:19 pm
I think the possible interpretation is that Meppa's cowl is just fashionable like it's in good taste not to make people look at your eye sockets.
Title: Re: Sorcerous Artifacts
Post by: Wilshire on November 23, 2014, 06:04:33 pm
Did someone put Mimara's sun-skin mail on the list?  If the Nonmen recognize Akka in Nil'giccas' armor, I wonder if Mimara will be spotted wearing someone's stuff too.

Perhaps Cleric's pouch belongs on the list: "the Nonman King's rune-stamped pouch" p. 579, WLW, US hardback.  Maybe it's like Sorweel's pouch.

Hmmm, and Anarcane pouch? Sorcery without a mark...
Title: Re: Sorcerous Artifacts
Post by: dragharrow on November 24, 2014, 02:27:54 pm
So, how to explain the Inverse Fire?
It's tecknology... How do our computers allow us to image a nebula light years away?

Yeah I definitely think it's tech not an artifact of sorcery.

One idea I was kicking around for a while was that the inverse flame was accidentally created while the inchoroi were designing some kind of cryo stasis technology for space travel. They developed the technology to put someone into a state of suspended animation and then resuscitate them. The suspended animation was effectively death and the person's soul was thrust into hell and than yanked back out when they were resuscitated. All of their test subjects came out of deep freeze screaming about hell and damnation. Some evolution of that technology could be the inverse flame.

Ultimately I don't actually think that that is how the inverse flame works but I bet it is in the same vein. Tech that accidentally leverages some metaphysical trick. It will undoubtedly be a super clever metaphysical trick knowing Bakker. Maybe there is a hint in the name?

In any case I think my idea provides at least an example of how pure tekne could create a window into hell.
 
Title: Re: Sorcerous Artifacts
Post by: dragharrow on November 24, 2014, 02:48:09 pm
Also I have an artifact to add to the list that I don't think anyone else mentioned:
(The False Sun spoilers)
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Sorcerous Artifacts
Post by: Wilshire on November 24, 2014, 04:52:37 pm
Mind the subforums.

The thought The Barricades were the actual Glamor that was cast over Golgotterath, the thing that
False Sun spoilers
(click to show/hide)

If so, then its pure magic rather than a physical construct, but I could be mistaken.

Your description of the cryo thing reminds me of one of the short stories in Asimov's I Robot. There is a short were two men make some FTL movement, and the AI refuses to tell them how it works (since telling them breaks one of the 3 laws, but there is some loophole because once they come out the other side they are unharmed).

As it turns out, one of them experiences what I imagine was supposed to be hell, and the other heaven, for a brief instant as they die and them come back out the other side alive.
Title: Re: Sorcerous Artifacts
Post by: locke on November 24, 2014, 08:28:56 pm
So, how to explain the Inverse Fire?
It's tecknology... How do our computers allow us to image a nebula light years away?

Yeah I definitely think it's tech not an artifact of sorcery.

One idea I was kicking around for a while was that the inverse flame was accidentally created while the inchoroi were designing some kind of cryo stasis technology for space travel. They developed the technology to put someone into a state of suspended animation and then resuscitate them. The suspended animation was effectively death and the person's soul was thrust into hell and than yanked back out when they were resuscitated. All of their test subjects came out of deep freeze screaming about hell and damnation. Some evolution of that technology could be the inverse flame.

Ultimately I don't actually think that that is how the inverse flame works but I bet it is in the same vein. Tech that accidentally leverages some metaphysical trick. It will undoubtedly be a super clever metaphysical trick knowing Bakker. Maybe there is a hint in the name?

In any case I think my idea provides at least an example of how pure tekne could create a window into hell.
Makes sense. Fire is hot cryo is cold cold and hot are inverse

All typ0s courtesy of Samsung.

Title: Re: Sorcerous Artifacts
Post by: dragharrow on November 25, 2014, 11:47:11 am
Mind the subforums.

Oh damn, my bad. Sorry :(


I wrote a bunch in response to you wilshire but its spoiler heavy.
The False Sun spoilers ahead:
(click to show/hide)


(related but not a spoiler)
I would bet that the glamour was produced by a magical artifact. I don't know if there is a solid consensus on this but I suspect that as soon as a sorcerer stops performing his cant, the sorcerous effect decays fairly rapidly. I've been assuming that the only way for magical effects to be maintained without constant spellcasting is through the use of artifacts. I could totally be wrong about this this though, I haven't really tried to think of a counter example yet.
Title: Re: Sorcerous Artifacts
Post by: SilentRoamer on November 25, 2014, 02:09:46 pm
I would agree with the above. Sorcerous artefacts allow sorcerous intent to be imbued into them. This would make sense if we examine the other sorcerous artefacts - for example, why use a Wathi Doll? Why not just house the soul in anything?
Title: Re: Sorcerous Artifacts
Post by: Wilshire on November 25, 2014, 02:34:45 pm
I would agree with the above. Sorcerous artefacts allow sorcerous intent to be imbued into them. This would make sense if we examine the other sorcerous artefacts - for example, why use a Wathi Doll? Why not just house the soul in anything?


As for the Wathi Doll, isn't it mentioned that its use is somewhat looked down upon? I think there is some kind of taboo against even just using one, so making one would certainly be forbidden. Seems odd that a school convinced of its damnation would have taboos, but we know the Diamos is one such branch, so there must be others.
--


(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Sorcerous Artifacts
Post by: dragharrow on November 25, 2014, 02:46:34 pm
Wilshire,
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Sorcerous Artifacts
Post by: Wilshire on November 25, 2014, 03:01:12 pm
Seems reasonable. Once the magic is broken, its just a physical barrier...

Why not just throw a Chorae at it then?
Title: Re: Sorcerous Artifacts
Post by: Garet Jax on November 25, 2014, 03:14:38 pm

Seems reasonable. Once the magic is broken, its just a physical barrier...


Why not just through a Chorae at it then?


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Title: Re: Sorcerous Artifacts
Post by: Wilshire on November 25, 2014, 03:38:25 pm
Don't mind my embarrassing failures to discern the correct homophone to use.

Anyway, thats another possibility, but still doesn't explain why a chorae couldn't do the trick...
Title: Re: Sorcerous Artifacts
Post by: Garet Jax on November 25, 2014, 03:39:55 pm
I guess it technically could, but why would someone throw a tear of the gods at something they couldn't see?
Title: Re: Sorcerous Artifacts
Post by: Wilshire on November 25, 2014, 03:53:10 pm
Lol fair enough, but if they knew it was there, why wouldn't they? At the very least, Mek new where it was. Why not just give a Chorae to one of his sranc and have at it and see what happened? Seems like it should work.
Title: Re: Sorcerous Artifacts
Post by: dragharrow on November 25, 2014, 05:13:47 pm
Seems reasonable. Once the magic is broken, its just a physical barrier...
Why not just through a Chorae at it then?

Agreed, I think that's a real mystery presented by this. But that problem arises regardless of whether it's a sorcerous artifact or just a standard spell, right? Either way, a chorae should should unravel the magic no problem.

Lol there is a lot of text in this spoiler
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Title: Re: Sorcerous Artifacts
Post by: dragharrow on November 25, 2014, 05:14:30 pm
Sorry I wrote that while you guys were posting so I repeated a couple of things you said sort of
Title: Re: Sorcerous Artifacts
Post by: Wilshire on November 25, 2014, 05:31:04 pm
Good thoughts. That would explain away the chorae, sufficiency for me at least.

When Kellhus had his spinning rock armor, I believe the rocks fell away as they got hit by chorae. I imagine that if the magic was somehow manipulation space-time, you would need an infinite number of chorae to effectively disable the spell.
Title: Re: Sorcerous Artifacts
Post by: dragharrow on November 26, 2014, 09:44:02 pm
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Title: Re: Sorcerous Artifacts
Post by: Simas Polchias on November 28, 2014, 09:11:35 pm
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As far I can tell, we saw that technology in field action:
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Title: Re: Sorcerous Artifacts
Post by: Wilshire on December 02, 2014, 01:15:35 am
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Localized, impenetrable,  invisibility shields. Slap the psuke in there and it bears no mark.
Title: Re: Sorcerous Artifacts
Post by: dragharrow on December 13, 2014, 10:09:24 am
As far I can tell, we saw that technology in field action:
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Title: Re: Sorcerous Artifacts
Post by: locke on December 13, 2014, 03:53:05 pm
On the other hand akka has an onscreen dream that says the heron spear did not work.
Title: Re: Sorcerous Artifacts
Post by: mrganondorf on December 18, 2014, 10:22:33 am
perhaps a chorae could not work on the Barricades because of their 'magical magnitude'?  i'm think of Akka musing that Mimara shouldn't have been able to do anything to the Seal with only a single chorae.  surely there's got to be something along these lines, it will be so disappointing if Kellhus yokes War to the world and War is immediately dismissed by a single chorae shot!

if this kind of chorae protection exists, it will be neat to see what Kellhus/Consult do with it
Title: Re: Sorcerous Artifacts
Post by: Simas Polchias on December 19, 2014, 08:13:36 pm
The no god was destroyed by the heron spear
Actually, as a consult fanboy, I hope that No-God was not destroyed, but launched. Like the carapace was less a body or an armor and more a mobile launching pad or a sort of metaphysical egg. That's why there is no "first" or "second" apocalypse, there is just apocalypse and it's purely successfull phases. >:з
Title: Re: Sorcerous Artifacts
Post by: dragharrow on December 20, 2014, 02:40:00 pm
On the other hand akka has an onscreen dream that says the heron spear did not work.
Hmm, good catch. I totally forgot about that. Could you tell me where
Title: Re: Sorcerous Artifacts
Post by: themerchant on December 21, 2014, 05:45:34 am
I think it's his last dream in TTT, right at the end of the book when he wakes up in some hut and then walks back to shimeh.

EDIT: i'm sure i remember Akka thinking, this isn't what happens...
Title: Re: Sorcerous Artifacts
Post by: mrganondorf on December 31, 2014, 08:42:55 pm
The no god was destroyed by the heron spear
Actually, as a consult fanboy, I hope that No-God was not destroyed, but launched. Like the carapace was less a body or an armor and more a mobile launching pad or a sort of metaphysical egg. That's why there is no "first" or "second" apocalypse, there is just apocalypse and it's purely successfull phases. >:з

Kellhus, Proyas, and co get to talk to NG in the Ark!  that would be cool.  perhaps the rise of the Dunyain and Psukhari are some kind of muted effects of an ongoing apocalypse?

on the other hand, sometimes i like to think that the NG is nothing other than the carapace
Title: Re: Sorcerous Artifacts
Post by: mrganondorf on October 11, 2015, 06:05:59 pm
that sorcerous carpet thing that Kellhus has, that's going to like shoot out 10 feet wide lasers or someting.  you know it.  or it will fly and Kellhus will sing "A Whole New World" with Aurang

srsly tho, airborne chariots--does that include airborne horses?  because why not just ride the horses into the sky?  Kellhus uses this to combat the dragon prob?  if we are flying chariots around, fly some catapults us and fire straight down into Dagliash.  or just hurl boulders straight down on top of the battlements. 

maybe Kellhus will kill everything in the Ark, seal it, then bury it with the nearby mountain range.  hell, does he even need to go into it?  i guess the meta-gnosis would be good for collapsing all of the underground tunnels, then burying the thing to a point that the air inside will run out before new tunnels could be built--a calculation a Dunyain mind could make.  then just hang around and check for new tunnels every once in a while--seismic-meta-gnosis
Title: Re: Sorcerous Artifacts
Post by: Simas Polchias on October 13, 2015, 10:44:47 am
srsly tho, airborne chariots--does that include airborne horses?  because why not just ride the horses into the sky?
Because that's how Wutteat was born. A darkest, most obscene & certainly expunged page in the history of ur-nonmen ur-sorcery.

PS I'm protecting my joke with cants of internets http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheFogOfAges
Title: Re: Sorcerous Artifacts
Post by: mrganondorf on October 13, 2015, 02:00:42 pm
srsly tho, airborne chariots--does that include airborne horses?  because why not just ride the horses into the sky?
Because that's how Wutteat was born. A darkest, most obscene & certainly expunged page in the history of ur-nonmen ur-sorcery.

PS I'm protecting my joke with cants of internets http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheFogOfAges

SAURIAN SKY HORSE!

all takers, i'm betting a whole dollar that Kellhus animates every one of his chorae into a dragon shaped chorae ... dragon

AND THEN FORCE FEEDS THE WHOLE THING TO WUTTEAT
Title: Re: Sorcerous Artifacts
Post by: mrganondorf on December 18, 2015, 07:45:12 pm
i wonder if Mek's sword is more than nimil.  it is described as...

"With solemn deliberation the figure drew his broadsword.  It shined unnaturally in the gloom, as though reflecting some otherwordly sun." (27)

and again "unearthly blade" (29)

btw, i wonder if Bakker let it slip that the nonman at the beginning of TDTCB is Mekeritrig just to throw us off.  maybe it's Ninjanjin?  Maybe it's Cleric and he was set adrift because he lost his book?
Title: Re: Sorcerous Artifacts
Post by: mrganondorf on January 26, 2016, 11:35:37 pm
i was thinking about why the nonmen would prefer chariots to just walking the sky.  here's what i think...

- chariot can do barrel rolls and cool evasive action shit
- the chariot that visits the Great Ordeal had 3 dudes in it.  ideal for 1 pilot, 2 gunners
- chariots supped up to go fast, faster than dragons maybe

hey, do we know if those chariots have horses?  what's going on with those horses?  are they just normal horses all spelled-up or what?  are they like anagogic horses?  are there no horses?
Title: Re: Sorcerous Artifacts
Post by: H on January 27, 2016, 11:15:12 am
i was thinking about why the nonmen would prefer chariots to just walking the sky.  here's what i think...

- chariot can do barrel rolls and cool evasive action shit
- the chariot that visits the Great Ordeal had 3 dudes in it.  ideal for 1 pilot, 2 gunners
- chariots supped up to go fast, faster than dragons maybe

hey, do we know if those chariots have horses?  what's going on with those horses?  are they just normal horses all spelled-up or what?  are they like anagogic horses?  are there no horses?

Pretty sure no horses.

I think the role of the chariot is so that one sorcerer can fly a couple non-sorcerers around.  It wouldn't be too impressive to have a sorcerer flying two guys around by holding their hands...
Title: Re: Sorcerous Artifacts
Post by: Somnambulist on January 27, 2016, 02:55:32 pm
From White-Luck Warrior, Sorweel watches the approach of the Nonmen:

Quote
He peered, squinted as much out of disbelief as against the high sun. He saw black horses - a team of four. He saw wheels...
A chariot, he realized. A flying chariot.

A few paragraphs later:

Quote
The sky-chariot banked toward the Prince-Imperial and swung to earth. The hooves of the blacks bit hard into the denuded turf, and wings of dust and gravel sprawled about their glossy flanks.

So, yeah, horses...
Title: Re: Sorcerous Artifacts
Post by: H on January 27, 2016, 03:03:23 pm
Quote
The sky-chariot banked toward the Prince-Imperial and swung to earth. The hooves of the blacks bit hard into the denuded turf, and wings of dust and gravel sprawled about their glossy flanks.

So, yeah, horses...

Whoops, definitely missed that...