[Blackstone]

I've never been particularly fond of the Meppa=Cnaüir connection, yet I'm not a fan of Moe just totally messed up and got killed either.

Meppa was certainly "made" by the events that ended the Cishaurim.  It could be that Meppa was a Primary that was held back (for some reason, maybe by Moe) and perhaps underwent a "soul-transfer" of sorts.  Maybe from Moe, maybe from some other Primary.

Hmm. Moe was one of the weaker Chishaurim, but he had great ability with scrying, iirc. Perhaps transferring his soul to another body is some aspect of scrying and the amnesia is a result of the trauma of the transfer.

[Wilshire]

Hmm. Moe was one of the weaker Chishaurim, but he had great ability with scrying, iirc. Perhaps transferring his soul to another body is some aspect of scrying and the amnesia is a result of the trauma of the transfer.

Oh man, you've been gone for some time, haven't you? . Well I'll just let you know now, before you get confused: There is a whole congregate of people who now believe Moenghus is the All-Thing, master manipulator of all events, the true master of TTT and all circumstance. He-who-comes-before-all, a perfect self-moving soul with god-like meta-psukhe powers.

I am not one of those people.

But, for those that are, and believe he had limitless powers in the psukhe, all things are trivial to the point of absurdity. A soul transfer would be well within the cosmic power of such an individual.


I'd say a soul tranfer type of ordeal using the might of all the primaries, or some other such great effort, might be possible though.

[H]

Hmm. Moe was one of the weaker Chishaurim, but he had great ability with scrying, iirc. Perhaps transferring his soul to another body is some aspect of scrying and the amnesia is a result of the trauma of the transfer.

Oh man, you've been gone for some time, haven't you? . Well I'll just let you know now, before you get confused: There is a whole congregate of people who now believe Moenghus is the All-Thing, master manipulator of all events, the true master of TTT and all circumstance. He-who-comes-before-all, a perfect self-moving soul with god-like meta-psukhe powers.

I am not one of those people.

But, for those that are, and believe he had limitless powers in the psukhe, all things are trivial to the point of absurdity. A soul transfer would be well within the cosmic power of such an individual.


I'd say a soul tranfer type of ordeal using the might of all the primaries, or some other such great effort, might be possible though.

I'd like to consider myself a Moderate Moënghus theorist.  I don't think he was somehow all-powerful, yet not considering that Kellhus might actually kill him seems positively boned-headed.  Not the kind of thing we would expect from a Dûnyain who spent 30 years honing TTT to get to that moment.

Meppa lacking earlier memories seems to hint at a Dûnyain-like plant, since nothing coming before means he is almost something of a self-moving soul, but that could easily be red-herring.

[Blackstone]

Hmm. Moe was one of the weaker Chishaurim, but he had great ability with scrying, iirc. Perhaps transferring his soul to another body is some aspect of scrying and the amnesia is a result of the trauma of the transfer.

Oh man, you've been gone for some time, haven't you? . Well I'll just let you know now, before you get confused: There is a whole congregate of people who now believe Moenghus is the All-Thing, master manipulator of all events, the true master of TTT and all circumstance. He-who-comes-before-all, a perfect self-moving soul with god-like meta-psukhe powers.

I am not one of those people.

But, for those that are, and believe he had limitless powers in the psukhe, all things are trivial to the point of absurdity. A soul transfer would be well within the cosmic power of such an individual.


I'd say a soul tranfer type of ordeal using the might of all the primaries, or some other such great effort, might be possible though.

Ha ha ha. No, I did not realize that was a thing. Good to know. I'm willing to speculate, but I consider myself a nonbeliever in Moenghus Primacy.

[themerchant]

We've seen numerous soul transfers in the book it's not out of nowhere. Even a skinspy got a soul. Though i suspect that SkinSpy has been reprogrammed by Moe and sent to the Mandate to be revealed by Maitha to bring the Mandate onside.

[MSJ]

It's not out of nowhere @themerchant. I agree with you, there is plenty of textual evidence on the matter of soul transferring. I'm just up in the air on exactly what Moe wanted to accomplish in Kyudea. But, to say he didn't plan something is foolish.

[mrganondorf]

It might be possible that Moe simply found a way to circumnavigate or cancel a chorae's power.  Cnaiur touches him with the chorae and Moe does Psukhe to make it appear that he's been salted.

I know the chorae has been presented as an absolute so far, but that could just be another expectation Bakker will overcome.  If he's following Herbert at all, then absolutes are the very thing that characters figure out how to overcome.

I really don't think that Meppa's appearance means much.  If you have the psukhe, you could probably make yourself look like whatever you want. 

[MSJ]

It might be possible that Moe simply found a way to circumnavigate or cancel a chorae's power.

Or, figured out a way to use a chorae to transfer his and Cnaüir's soul to another human. Sorta like some think he did with the Mandate skin-spy (Simas?).

[Blackstone]

It's not out of nowhere @themerchant. I agree with you, there is plenty of textual evidence on the matter of soul transferring. I'm just up in the air on exactly what Moe wanted to accomplish in Kyudea. But, to say he didn't plan something is foolish.

I can't think of any instance where a soul is transferred to anything but an inanimate object. It's an assumption that a soul was transferred to a skin spy vs it being created with a soul or just being an anomaly the Consult cannot duplicate. If they had the ability to transfer souls at will into a skin spy I think they would build a bunch of them capable of using magic.

I just don't think Moe has it in him to overcome the absolute of salting by Chorae

[H]

I don't recall if it was in an interview or what, but there was mention of animals sometimes acquiring souls as well.

I still think something odd was up with how the Simas agent got a soul, but it's something we just might never learn of...

[MSJ]

@Blackstone, there is precedence for it. We see how Shae has lived through is soul trapping whatever you want to call it. Seswatha's heart. Yea, the skin-spy is just a guess at this point, but how would Maithenet know about Simas? Well, like everything else, Moe. The Waithii Doll, though inanimate it would seem to be a clue that it is possible. I think there is enough textual evidence for it to be a possibility.

[Blackstone]

@Blackstone, there is precedence for it. We see how Shae has lived through is soul trapping whatever you want to call it. Seswatha's heart. Yea, the skin-spy is just a guess at this point, but how would Maithenet know about Simas? Well, like everything else, Moe. The Waithii Doll, though inanimate it would seem to be a clue that it is possible. I think there is enough textual evidence for it to be a possibility.

Well, Seswatha's heart trapping his own soul is not the same as transferring person A's soul into person B's body. I think we don't know enough about Shae to say for sure what is going on there. It's just a bit from a teaser chapter (unless I am missing something).

As far as Maithanet knowing about Simas: this is a conundrum. Is it possible that Moe transferred a soul into a skin spy's body and then sent it to infiltrate the Mandate? Yes. But, I don't think there's any actual evidence in the books that Simas uses sorcery. So maybe the comment about Simas having a soul was Maithanet's Dunyain manipulation. So it's actually more *probable* that Maithanet showed up to Atyersus to ally with the Mandate and thought, "Oh shit, a skin spy."

But in short, I think it's possible, but not probable that Moe Quantum Leaped out of his body right before he got choraed by Cnauir.

[MSJ]

No, Maithenet said they learned of Simas through their interrogation of skin-spies. And, if Simas didn't have a soul with aMark, well he wouldn't have lasted very long as a top member of the Mandate.

And, I would say that the chorae is probably what made the soul transfer possible there in Kyudea. At least had something to do with it.

[Blackstone]

No, Maithenet said they learned of Simas through their interrogation of skin-spies. And, if Simas didn't have a soul with aMark, well he wouldn't have lasted very long as a top member of the Mandate.

And, I would say that the chorae is probably what made the soul transfer possible there in Kyudea. At least had something to do with it.

Touche in regards to the mark. You definitely make a point there.

So if Maithanet says he found out about Simas from interrogating skin spies, what makes you think he learned about it from Moe instead?

That seems to be counter to everything we know about chorae. I think if chorae are capable of doing anything other than their stated abilities, then Bakker should have given us some sort of clue to that. I realize Mimara does some weird stuff with one, but nothing that makes me think a chorae, which would negate any sorcery Moe tried to use with Cnauir holding it that close to his face, would help a sorcerous soul transfer.

[Wilshire]

As for soul transfer, there is plenty of it going around.
Souls into objects: Skin-spy (functionally a bio machine), locks at the library (souls embedded into the mechanism), Wathi Doll

So, putting a soul into an empty vessel, that's a thing.
Putting a soul into an occupied body? ie something that already has a soul? I don't think there's precedence for that.

Soul transfer into another body is a curious thought. If you look at shae, IMO its likely each single body is more/less dead and soulless, making it open to transfer. This might explain why they are all amputed - a dead body that is only sustained part of the time would lose blood flow in its peripheries maybe...

If moe had a dead guy on standby to transfer to, and if in fact a single person could achieve such a transference, then maybe its possible.

I still think he's dead though. I can't think of, and haven't hear of, a situation that didn ruin the story for me if Moe lived, corporeally, through that encounter. If its explained later, then I'm sure it'll be fine, but I wouldn't count on it. There have been few, if any, answers or bits of information given to us in TAE that have explained things from PoN.