Meppa is X (II)

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MSJ

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« Reply #120 on: April 01, 2016, 08:33:43 pm »
No, Maithenet said they learned of Simas through their interrogation of skin-spies. And, if Simas didn't have a soul with aMark, well he wouldn't have lasted very long as a top member of the Mandate.

And, I would say that the chorae is probably what made the soul transfer possible there in Kyudea. At least had something to do with it.

Touche in regards to the mark. You definitely make a point there.

So if Maithanet says he found out about Simas from interrogating skin spies, what makes you think he learned about it from Moe instead?

That seems to be counter to everything we know about chorae. I think if chorae are capable of doing anything other than their stated abilities, then Bakker should have given us some sort of clue to that. I realize Mimara does some weird stuff with one, but nothing that makes me think a chorae, which would negate any sorcery Moe tried to use with Cnauir holding it that close to his face, would help a sorcerous soul transfer.

Well, how do Dunyain lie? With truth. We learn it's near impossible for even Kellhus to exact a shred of information from the skin-spies.  What makes you think Maithenet would be able to? Who had a dungeon in Kyudea with neuropuncture, and 30 years to find a way to exact that info? So, that leads me to think that Maithenet only learned what Moe told him.

Well, RSB does give a clue that there is more to chorae than just killing sorcerors. Cil-Aujus, and Mimara holding the gates, and repelling a Wight. The wight wasn't of sorcerous nature. It was a ghost.

And Blackstone, its a reach that Meppa is Moe and what I call Cnaüir's passion tied together. Because that was waht Moe was lacking, passion. It makes sense, since we come to find out the Meppa's Water is like an ocean. Its more just wishful thinking on my part. Yet, I'm hopeful that one day I can say, I told you so.

Eta: and we come to find out in TJE that skin-spies don't reveal anything. They have to use neuropuncture just to simulate pain when flaying them. So that even more evidence that Moe created that ensouled skin-spy.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2016, 09:07:33 pm by MSJ »
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

MSJ

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« Reply #121 on: April 01, 2016, 09:25:40 pm »
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So, putting a soul into an empty vessel, that's a thing.
Putting a soul into an occupied body? ie something that already has a soul? I don't think there's precedence for that.

Well we have Aurang taki g over Esme. And she continues to dream of his life later on. A part of Aurangs soul was left in her. There are little clues everywhere that this is possible.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Wilshire

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« Reply #122 on: April 01, 2016, 10:03:51 pm »
Intersting bit there, but I dont agree with that conclusions. It is, I think, an after effect of the Cants of Compulsion. She felt that Aurang's thoughts where her own, his desires her, and so when she remembers the incident it appears that his soul inhabited hers, whereas it was really just his memories and passions.

As for chorae, we know there is something more to them when Mimara wields then through the Judging Eye. She did something, as far as Akka knew, that was entirely impossible, i.e unique and unprecedented. Not something other's could accomplish - especially someone like Moenghus so deeply rooted in reality, and also not having the JE.
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Blackstone

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« Reply #123 on: April 02, 2016, 03:02:33 am »
I agree that it is the cant of compulsion vs Aurang's soul taking over her body.
No, Maithenet said they learned of Simas through their interrogation of skin-spies. And, if Simas didn't have a soul with aMark, well he wouldn't have lasted very long as a top member of the Mandate.

And, I would say that the chorae is probably what made the soul transfer possible there in Kyudea. At least had something to do with it.

Touche in regards to the mark. You definitely make a point there.

So if Maithanet says he found out about Simas from interrogating skin spies, what makes you think he learned about it from Moe instead?

That seems to be counter to everything we know about chorae. I think if chorae are capable of doing anything other than their stated abilities, then Bakker should have given us some sort of clue to that. I realize Mimara does some weird stuff with one, but nothing that makes me think a chorae, which would negate any sorcery Moe tried to use with Cnauir holding it that close to his face, would help a sorcerous soul transfer.

Well, how do Dunyain lie? With truth. We learn it's near impossible for even Kellhus to exact a shred of information from the skin-spies.  What makes you think Maithenet would be able to? Who had a dungeon in Kyudea with neuropuncture, and 30 years to find a way to exact that info? So, that leads me to think that Maithenet only learned what Moe told him.

Well, RSB does give a clue that there is more to chorae than just killing sorcerors. Cil-Aujus, and Mimara holding the gates, and repelling a Wight. The wight wasn't of sorcerous nature. It was a ghost.

And Blackstone, its a reach that Meppa is Moe and what I call Cnaüir's passion tied together. Because that was waht Moe was lacking, passion. It makes sense, since we come to find out the Meppa's Water is like an ocean. Its more just wishful thinking on my part. Yet, I'm hopeful that one day I can say, I told you so.

Eta: and we come to find out in TJE that skin-spies don't reveal anything. They have to use neuropuncture just to simulate pain when flaying them. So that even more evidence that Moe created that ensouled skin-spy.

But it seems just as likely that Moe would tell Maithanet how to extract information from a skin spy (I'm not disputing the two are linked). It says very clearly in TJE that Kellhus can get information from them.

I think it would ruin the story for me if a lot of "dead" characters turned up alive or if Moe turned out to be the guy pulling everyone's strings. But that's me :D
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MSJ

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« Reply #124 on: April 02, 2016, 06:36:38 am »
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I think it would ruin the story for me if a lot of "dead" characters turned up alive or if Moe turned out to be the guy pulling everyone's strings. But that's me.

Well, Moe was certainly pulling all the strings in PoN. And, as I said, I think its a possibility with enough circumstantial evidence for Meppa to be a product of what went down in Kyudea. Either way I can live with it. And,  I see your and others reasoning behind it also.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

themerchant

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« Reply #125 on: April 02, 2016, 01:01:38 pm »
Yeah the whole of the first series was basically the execution of the Moe's TTT. Now it's a case of, did Kellhus take over it as he thinks, or is Moe still the conductor.

Best way to keep a secret is to tell no one even yourself, Meppa is a huge secret from everybody. Considering the amount of conditioning going on in these parts due to Dunyain exposure, I doubt he is random. We've already had scenes where Dunyain remove memories (Serwe in TWP). Probably a son of Moe's I reckon.


MSJ

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« Reply #126 on: April 02, 2016, 11:46:03 pm »
Intersting bit there, but I dont agree with that conclusions. It is, I think, an after effect of the Cants of Compulsion. She felt that Aurang's thoughts where her own, his desires her, and so when she remembers the incident it appears that his soul inhabited hers, whereas it was really just his memories and passions.

As for chorae, we know there is something more to them when Mimara wields then through the Judging Eye. She did something, as far as Akka knew, that was entirely impossible, i.e unique and unprecedented. Not something other's could accomplish - especially someone like Moenghus so deeply rooted in reality, and also not having the JE.

Yea,  I understand its a result of the cants of compulsion. But,  doesn't Kellhus say that Aurang didn't want to posses Esme any longer than need be, because more of his memories would have went to Esme (or something like that).

As for the chorae, remeber when Cnaüir touches Moe with it, he says it seems as if the God is loooking at him through Moe's eyes. Mimara sees that it is try a Tear of God. I just believe there is more there. Can I give you a explanation of why?  No. But,  man I really like @the merchant's idea that the creation of chorae might involve a soul,  and would really make sense, since as he said the each have different flavors. We don't know how a soul is trapped in a Waathi Doll, but if souls are connected to chorae that would seem very plausible way to make a Waathi Doll.

As for Kellhus extracting info from skin-spies, I don't remeber him getting any useful info from them. If someone could quote that for me, I'd appreciate it. Because, I can't recall that to be the case.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Blackstone

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« Reply #127 on: April 04, 2016, 02:38:23 pm »
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I think it would ruin the story for me if a lot of "dead" characters turned up alive or if Moe turned out to be the guy pulling everyone's strings. But that's me.

Well, Moe was certainly pulling all the strings in PoN. And, as I said, I think its a possibility with enough circumstantial evidence for Meppa to be a product of what went down in Kyudea. Either way I can live with it. And,  I see your and others reasoning behind it also.
Oh yeah, I definitely not trying to dispute that Moe orchestrated the first holy war (Scarlet Spires assassination, planting Maithanet as Shriah, etc), I'm just saying I think it would be disappointing for me as a reader if a) his conditioning was now driving the GO, or b) he is somehow still alive and still pulling the strings.

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Blackstone

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« Reply #128 on: April 04, 2016, 02:45:35 pm »
Intersting bit there, but I dont agree with that conclusions. It is, I think, an after effect of the Cants of Compulsion. She felt that Aurang's thoughts where her own, his desires her, and so when she remembers the incident it appears that his soul inhabited hers, whereas it was really just his memories and passions.

As for chorae, we know there is something more to them when Mimara wields then through the Judging Eye. She did something, as far as Akka knew, that was entirely impossible, i.e unique and unprecedented. Not something other's could accomplish - especially someone like Moenghus so deeply rooted in reality, and also not having the JE.

Yea,  I understand its a result of the cants of compulsion. But,  doesn't Kellhus say that Aurang didn't want to posses Esme any longer than need be, because more of his memories would have went to Esme (or something like that).

As for the chorae, remeber when Cnaüir touches Moe with it, he says it seems as if the God is loooking at him through Moe's eyes. Mimara sees that it is try a Tear of God. I just believe there is more there. Can I give you a explanation of why?  No. But,  man I really like @the merchant's idea that the creation of chorae might involve a soul,  and would really make sense, since as he said the each have different flavors. We don't know how a soul is trapped in a Waathi Doll, but if souls are connected to chorae that would seem very plausible way to make a Waathi Doll.

As for Kellhus extracting info from skin-spies, I don't remeber him getting any useful info from them. If someone could quote that for me, I'd appreciate it. Because, I can't recall that to be the case.

I reread that bit about Moe and Cnauir at the end of TTT the other day and that stuck out to me too. I think this is the only time we have read a description of someone choraed up close, and I assume that this is just a description of the process as seen from a foot away. I think the bit about a "god" is just how Cnauir, who is completely obsessed with Moe (and I daresay worships him in some way) would think about it. I think it was poetic license on Bakker's part and not meant as some sort of clue.

As for Kellhus interrogating skin spies, MSJ was right and I was wrong in our earlier posts. I found a part in TJE where they have captured the black-skinned skin spy, and it is mentioned that without Kellhus there, they wouldn't be able to get anything useful out of it. Since Maithanet is standing right beside Esmi when she thinks this, then the implication is that Kellhus CAN get information from them and Maithanet cannot. Therefore, it seems unlikely that Maithanet was able to find out on his own that Simas was a skin spy at the end of TTT. However, there is always the possibility that this was a mistake by Bakker.
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Bolivar

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« Reply #129 on: April 04, 2016, 03:16:08 pm »
It would be really Frank Herbert-esque if Meppa was Kellhus and a Ciphrang substitution from the Outside really is leading The Great Ordeal.

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themerchant

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« Reply #130 on: April 04, 2016, 03:52:54 pm »
Simas was altered by Moe as his way of conditioning the Mandate to the TTT by having Maitha turn up and expose it, instantly removing all question from their mind in the same way Kellhus saying his name and talking about dreams did to Maitha. The added bit about only Kellhus being able to mine them for knowledge strengthens the argument.

Also not being able to replicate a process doesn't sound very scientific to me, and that's the tekne.

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« Reply #131 on: April 04, 2016, 04:09:53 pm »
Simas was altered by Moe as his way of conditioning the Mandate to the TTT by having Maitha turn up and expose it, instantly removing all question from their mind in the same way Kellhus saying his name and talking about dreams did to Maitha. The added bit about only Kellhus being able to mine them for knowledge strengthens the argument.

Also not being able to replicate a process doesn't sound very scientific to me, and that's the tekne.
I don't think that strengthens the argument that Moe altered Simas, only the idea that Moe discovered Simas and alerted Maithanet, who then used the revelation to help bring in the Mandate. Since Kellhus was already fulfilling their prophecy, I don't think they needed much prodding.

I'm not sure what you mean about "saying his name and talking about dreams did to Maitha." Can you elaborate?
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themerchant

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« Reply #132 on: April 04, 2016, 05:46:52 pm »

[/quote]
I don't think that strengthens the argument that Moe altered Simas, only the idea that Moe discovered Simas and alerted Maithanet, who then used the revelation to help bring in the Mandate. Since Kellhus was already fulfilling their prophecy, I don't think they needed much prodding.

I'm not sure what you mean about "saying his name and talking about dreams did to Maitha." Can you elaborate?
[/quote]

I meant to write Akka. Kellhus name and revelations of Dreams over turn any previous objections Akka had when they first meet.

Science is about replication, the Inchies use the Old Science. They were able to replicate every graft we know of, even the sorcery graft even though it filled the pit of abortions. They suddenly encountered an unrepeatable experiment. Giving the ability to work sorcery to a skin spy.

It means that skin spies cannot be conditioned only read for info. I'm still leaning towards (as much as i can with weak evidence) Moe being the creator. As he needed something revealing to bring the Mandate immediately onside. Although the Skin Spy could just be a fortuitous correspondence of cause. As revealing a consult agent in the Quorum is just the ticket.

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« Reply #133 on: April 04, 2016, 05:57:19 pm »
I'm not a believer in coincidence in real-life.  I am definitely not a believer in coincidence in Earwa though.

I find it plausible that the Simas-agent's creation had something to do with Moe.  Of course, it's as likely that it was some other kind of "happy accident."  The only "clue" that we get is how fortuitous it is that Maith gets to "unmask" Simas to get the Mandate on their side.
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MSJ

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« Reply #134 on: April 04, 2016, 06:07:13 pm »
30 years my friends, 30 years......
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,