The Second Apocalypse
Earwa => The No-God => Topic started by: profgrape on May 23, 2018, 03:42:23 pm
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The Mutilated (RSB's "Cenobites) are pretty badass as far as "big bads" go. They're far smarter than humans, have a massive army led by the NG and the Gnosis. They are, in almost every way, more formidable than Shae, Mek, Aurang and Aurax.
Yet aside from the horde of Skin Spies (one of whom salted Kellhus and will hopefully be getting a sweet end-of-year bonus) and Aurax, their existence is AFAWK a secret.
The question I'm pondering is whether they'll become more visible in TNG, effectively "announcing their presence". Because absent them doing so, I'm not sure how humanity would ever discover the truth.
Thoughts?
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That's an interesting question, profgrape.
My guess is that they might remain as the masterminds behind the scenes. After all, Dûnyain are pretty effective at doing so, and they have already done a great job of working things from "behind the curtain" for years. I don't know if there's any need for them to "go public" with the No-God and his legions presumably already doing everything that needs to be done (keep new humans from being born, then work on getting the population down to 144,000).
Though it's always possible they have other plans that we don't know about yet. Hopefully we will get a POV from at least one of them (or at least from Malowebi, who still seems to be around and fully-aware) that sheds some light on that.
Even if they don't announce their existence to the world, I think it's probable that Akka, Esmenet, Mimara and co. will return to Golgotterath by the end of the series and learn of their existence (and role in orchestrating the Second Apocalypse) then.
Yet aside from the horde of Skin Spies (one of whom salted Kellhus and will hopefully be getting a sweet end-of-year bonus)
This bit about the skin-spy did make me chuckle. ;) Jeff the skin-spy (making a reference to Eddie Izzard and his usual character naming conventions here...), employee of the year millennium!
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Nice point with the Hellraiser similarity!
(http://horror.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/Chatterer--1024x576.jpg)
I don't think they will be revealed to broader humanity, but we might still see them.
edit: On the other hand though, it would be cool to see them e.g. fighting alongside the No-God using sorcery and/or restored Tekne artifacts to ensure it succeeds.
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Gnosis? I thought it was implied that Kellhus was unique among them in that regard... delivered to the Tekne vs delivered to the Gnosis (and Daimos)?
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edit: On the other hand though, it would be cool to see them e.g. fighting alongside the No-God using sorcery and/or restored Tekne artifacts to ensure it succeeds.
You think they'll reach the conclusion that it will be worth it to actually go out on the field and fight the armies of Men (and whatever surviving Nonmen there might be)?
I really can't see that happening unless humanity does manage to organize a decent enough army and that forces their hand. That won't be happening any time soon, I'd say, unless the survival rate among the Great Ordeal was much higher than we're led to believe...
Gnosis? I thought it was implied that Kellhus was unique among them in that regard... delivered to the Tekne vs delivered to the Gnosis (and Daimos)?
They still have Qûya working on their side, assuming some survived the battle at the end of TUC.
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Well, before there was a fair bit of risk involved in exiting the Ark. Now, there is actually both more and less. What they didn't know before was the danger that a god could pose, power that sorcery and Tekne is not able to stop in any real way. So, that might make them a bit more gun-shy than before.
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Gnosis? I thought it was implied that Kellhus was unique among them in that regard... delivered to the Tekne vs delivered to the Gnosis (and Daimos)?
At least some of them can do sorcery, probably taught them by Aurax/Aurang or Consult erratics.
edit: On the other hand though, it would be cool to see them e.g. fighting alongside the No-God using sorcery and/or restored Tekne artifacts to ensure it succeeds.
You think they'll reach the conclusion that it will be worth it to actually go out on the field and fight the armies of Men (and whatever surviving Nonmen there might be)?
I really can't see that happening unless humanity does manage to organize a decent enough army and that forces their hand. That won't be happening any time soon, I'd say, unless the survival rate among the Great Ordeal was much higher than we're led to believe...
Gnosis? I thought it was implied that Kellhus was unique among them in that regard... delivered to the Tekne vs delivered to the Gnosis (and Daimos)?
They still have Qûya working on their side, assuming some survived the battle at the end of TUC.
Well, we still have Zeüm and Eanna, but we don't know how much of a threat they may pose to them. I don't think the Mutilated would have a problem risking or giving up their individual lives if it was part of the Shortest Path to the World being shut.
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In another thread I posited the idea of Kellhus returning in the Dreams as a means of control of circumstance beyond death. This could be how the Mandate and Swayali learn of the Mutilated (and of course, Achamian will Dream him first).
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Gnosis? I thought it was implied that Kellhus was unique among them in that regard... delivered to the Tekne vs delivered to the Gnosis (and Daimos)?
One of the Mutilated uses sorcery. Which I assumed was the Gnosis (taught by Mek or other Nonmen) although it totally could be Anagogis.
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In another thread I posited the idea of Kellhus returning in the Dreams as a means of control of circumstance beyond death. This could be how the Mandate and Swayali learn of the Mutilated (and of course, Achamian will Dream him first).
Love this. Akka’s divergent Dreams were never explained. Which could make them something RSB was deliberately holding back. I could see the revelation happening via Kellhus’ perspective? Or even Kelmomas’?
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]Love this. Akka’s divergent Dreams were never explained. Which could make them something RSB was deliberately holding back. I could see the revelation happening via Kellhus’ perspective? Or even Kelmomas’?
Well, in the Q&A here, when asked about what happened when Kellhus "spoke" to Seswatha, Bakker said that was off limits. So, id assume he has a plan for it.
ETA: Profgrape, why would you think we would experience these dreams through Kelmommas? There is no more Kelmommas, imho. He is the No-God now. He is apart from the Outside. Matter of fact, he is the Tekne in its greatest form. I don't see how that would even be a possibility. Just wondering what makes you think that a possibility.
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]Love this. Akka’s divergent Dreams were never explained. Which could make them something RSB was deliberately holding back. I could see the revelation happening via Kellhus’ perspective? Or even Kelmomas’?
Well, in the Q&A here, when asked about what happened when Kellhus "spoke" to Seswatha, Bakker said that was off limits. So, id assume he has a plan for it.
ETA: Profgrape, why would you think we would experience these dreams through Kelmommas? There is no more Kelmommas, imho. He is the No-God now. He is apart from the Outside. Matter of fact, he is the Tekne in its greatest form. I don't see how that would even be a possibility. Just wondering what makes you think that a possibility.
That's a good point, MSJ.
I was thinking about the parallel between Subjects Nau-Cayuti and Kelmomas. NC was the device to reveal the IF and the Object, perhaps Kelmomas could do the same for others?
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Well, we still have Zeüm and Eanna, but we don't know how much of a threat they may pose to them. I don't think the Mutilated would have a problem risking or giving up their individual lives if it was part of the Shortest Path to the World being shut.
I agree, I just don't think that the Shortest Path requires that to happen during the near future.
One of the Mutilated uses sorcery. Which I assumed was the Gnosis (taught by Mek or other Nonmen) although it totally could be Anagogis.
Huh, I had forgotten about that. Probably taught by Mek or one of the other Qûya, yes. Anyway, their sorcerous skill was presumably no match for Kellhus' Metagnosis and Daimos (it could be a match for Akka and/or any other sorcerer/witch who fights them in the future, though...).
In another thread I posited the idea of Kellhus returning in the Dreams as a means of control of circumstance beyond death. This could be how the Mandate and Swayali learn of the Mutilated (and of course, Achamian will Dream him first).
Your Dream theory is seeming more and more likely as discussion goes on, stuslayer. Presumably Akka would then learn not only of the Mutilated, but also of Kelmomas' fate (as everyone else who survived likely believes it was Kellhus in the Carapace).
I was thinking about the parallel between Subjects Nau-Cayuti and Kelmomas. NC was the device to reveal the IF and the Object, perhaps Kelmomas could do the same for others?
I don't think Akka will have Dreams from Kelmomas' POV if stuslayer's theory turns out to be true. Sure, Akka had Dreams from Nau-Cayûti's perspective from before he was placed in the Carapace, but we had Kelmomas' POV for 4 books, almost until the point he himself was inserted. It doesn't seem to me to be much point to an indirect Kelmomas POV.
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My take on it is that the general state of ignorance and uncertainty is the point. People don't know what's going on, and they really have no way to, absent some supernatural means, which are notably nonexistent in the real world. Bakker uses them to drive the plot, sure, but "driving" doesn't equal "solving".
So no, I wouldn't welcome the characters catching wind of the Dunsult through dreams or the like. Now, encountering them in battle and getting a hell of a surprise, that's something I can easily see. Or someone infiltrating the Ark Seswatha-style only to find it in the hands of the Dunyain.
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Another indirect thing we could see is maybe some of their Erratic lieutenants wielding e.g. weapons of light or new Wracu etc. which might hint that there's a new CEO at Golgotterath.
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Well, also Bakker did say he was leaning toward the next series being written more like The Sags rather than how the rest of the books were. I take that to mean less first-person perspectives, so if we do "see" them, it is probably only glimpses of them from afar.
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Well, also Bakker did say he was leaning toward the next series being written more like The Sags rather than how the rest of the books were. I take that to mean less first-person perspectives, so if we do "see" them, it is probably only glimpses of them from afar.
Actually, if we take it at face value and imagine something along the lines of the Silmarillion, then I'm worried about his readership. A narrative structure of this kind doesn't seem to engage contemporary readers.
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Well, also Bakker did say he was leaning toward the next series being written more like The Sags rather than how the rest of the books were. I take that to mean less first-person perspectives, so if we do "see" them, it is probably only glimpses of them from afar.
Actually, if we take it at face value and imagine something along the lines of the Silmarillion, then I'm worried about his readership. A narrative structure of this kind doesn't seem to engage contemporary readers.
I had the same reaction. As much as I like the stories Bakker tells, what I really love is the way he tells them. And so much of that comes down to perspective -- seeing things through the characters' eyes.
Yet it might also be that he meant that the books might be structured around shorter, more self-contained arcs. As Esme notes in TTT, the through line for the Sagas was Seswatha -- he'd appear and disappear and played a number of different roles. So I could imagine something where there are a lot of new POV's that experience TSA with Akka and his ragtag band as the through line.
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Yet it might also be that he meant that the books might be structured around shorter, more self-contained arcs. As Esme notes in TTT, the through line for the Sagas was Seswatha -- he'd appear and disappear and played a number of different roles. So I could imagine something where there are a lot of new POV's that experience TSA with Akka and his ragtag band as the through line.
I like this idea, having not only the Akka POVs but also seeing him from new (or returning) minor or secondary characters' eyes. Remember how Seswatha was seen as villainous, or at least morally ambiguous, in some of the books of the Sagas? It's very likely we'd have the same happen in Akka's case, especially since he's already the infamous Wizard who renounced their late Holy Aspect-Emperor...
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It's very likely we'd have the same happen in Akka's case, especially since he's already the infamous Wizard who renounced their late Holy Aspect-Emperor...
And, most of the world will believe Kellhus the No-God. Setting Akka up as the "not as crazy as we thought" Wizard. As you alluded to with Akka renouncing Kellhus and then writing a book denouncing him. He almost definitely will be the moral compass to many.
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Well, at minimum, if Bakker is sticking with what he told us, I really doubt we would see them directly in The Crabikiad. After that, well, it depends on how he chooses to show the story, I guess.
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And, most of the world will believe Kellhus the No-God. Setting Akka up as the "not as crazy as we thought" Wizard. As you alluded to with Akka renouncing Kellhus and then writing a book denouncing him. He almost definitely will be the moral compass to many.
A good point MSJ, but there will still be people who think that Akka is a shady character no matter how vindicated he might seem in retrospect by Kellhus being turned into the No-God (which may be...not that much? people still don't have confirmation about the whole Dûnyain and manipulation thing, only Akka's side of the story, they'll just think their Saviour met a tragic end).
Anyway, difference in opinions, that is what I expect to see: people thinking Akka was always an ungrateful traitor to the New Empire and has now taken advantage of Kellhus' death to set himself up as the new saviour; people who were faithful to Kellhus and mourn him but are now starting to doubt his goals and/or consider Akka has some valid points and their best interests in mind; people aligned with the Orthodox movement who now got what they wanted (Kellhus is gone) but are faced with the Apocalypse - they may very well turn to Akka and be quite willing to hear/see what he has to say/do; etc. I'm particularly interested in what the general reactions will be in the Zeümi court (assuming everyone doesn't just get slaughtered by the demon with Malowebi's face), given Malowebi's recollections of himself and his fellow Mbimayu reading and discussing Akka's Compendium.
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Remember he will be coming back with Esme, the Empress of the 3 seas. Also, Mimara. And, people that do make it out of the wake of The No-God from the Ordeal will know what role she played.
I still think humanity wins. Because, in TAE there are so many references to it becoming holy.
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Remember he will be coming back with Esme, the Empress of the 3 seas. Also, Mimara. And, people that do make it out of the wake of The No-God from the Ordeal will know what role she played.
I still think humanity wins. Because, in TAE there are so many references to it becoming holy.
Well, the issue is that anyone who was loyal to Esmenet is probably well and dead. And I don't know that anyone knows who Mimara is, but the good thing is that she doesn't need to dupe anyone, like Kellhus did, she is the real deal. Perhaps they return and find themselves with the Fanim, as Mimara could leverage the Eye as a neat "tool of the Solitary God." Perhaps even find an ally in Meppa.
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Well, the issue is that anyone who was loyal to Esmenet is probably well and dead. And I don't know that anyone knows who Mimara is, but the good thing is that she doesn't need to dupe anyone, like Kellhus did, she is the real deal. Perhaps they return and find themselves with the Fanim, as Mimara could leverage the Eye as a neat "tool of the Solitary God." Perhaps even find an ally in Meppa.
You're right, of course. There is no established rulership from Esme anymore. Yet, who do the people of Earwa look too, hmmmm?
Akka, just makes perfect sense. Now, many have posed that the majority that hear tell of went down with the rise of the No-God, will think Kellhus the No-God. What other conclusion could be drawn? He's the only one they know went into the Golden Room.
Akka, plublicy denounced, became a Wizard and made it his life work to find the origins of Kellhus. He survived the Ordeal and rise, he is a Mandate Schoolmen. For that reason alone, who better to trust during the Apocalypse?
If what Zsoronga says is true, many in Zeum believe his book. And, Zuem is the bulwark of the fight against the No-God. That's where Akka & co. head to. Personally, I see no better fit for Akka, and its set up throughout the series. As, someone said, "He's went from most insecure, to obsessed and now fighting what he has been fighting for the entirety of his life.".
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Well, from our rational perspective, yes believing Akka is the logical thing to do. But believing Seswatha was the logical thing to do during the First Apocalypse and most did not. Now, we can believe that people will have learned and some might, but everyone? That seems doubtful.
Mimara is the real hope, because she is the real prophet. Akka does speak for the past, but Mimara actually speaks for divine judgment. Akka will be important, but Mimara is the real key.
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Mimara is the real hope, because she is the real prophet. Akka does speak for the past, but Mimara actually speaks for divine judgment. Akka will be important, but Mimara is the real key.
I agree 100%
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It's also possible that Moenghus Jr. teams up with the Consult (at least initially) and then, upon learning they are Dunyain, somehow disseminates this information to other characters, especially given that he does not quite like Dunyain at this particular moment.
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Mimara might know via judging eye about the Mutilated.