The Second Apocalypse
Earwa => The Aspect-Emperor => The Great Ordeal => Topic started by: Madness on July 28, 2016, 10:50:08 pm
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Previous thread here (http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=1807.0).
The dream sequences have always been my favorite part of the books. I think the dream sequences in TGO are by far the most compelling from the reinterpretation of the Celmomian Prophecy to the final sequence in which we glimpse the No-god. I was just wondering what everyone else's thoughts were on them, specifically the final one.
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The dreams in TGO are very interesting, to say the least (I liked the first one inside the horns of Golgotterath) - But has an explanation been given why Akka now have dreams that are *NOT* from the point of view of Seswatha?
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Nope. And if I recall correctly from our Skype conversations H and Blackstone were both particularly miffed that Achamian doesn't make a bigger deal in reacting to his dreams in TGO.
Lol. Qirri. It's a hell of a drug.
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If you can store Seswatha's memories in the heart, presumably you can store other people's. Or transfer them to Seswatha. My question is how he got Nau's memories when he (presumably) died in Golgotterath.
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Nope. And if I recall correctly from our Skype conversations H and Blackstone were both particularly miffed that Achamian doesn't make a bigger deal in reacting to his dreams in TGO.
Lol. Qirri. It's a hell of a drug.
Oh, indeed I was, the dream here is so profound, it is absurd, yet Akka fails to even reminisce on it after.
I don't particularly like the idea that Kellhus sent the Prophecy back to Celmomas, but I don't see any other possibility. If that is true, then Kellhus is the author of his own Fate, which really makes no sense.
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If you can store Seswatha's memories in the heart, presumably you can store other people's. Or transfer them to Seswatha. My question is how he got Nau's memories when he (presumably) died in Golgotterath.
Yeah, I really don't understand the mechanisms behind it. Perhaps they are deeper memories to be unlocked by any similar/worthy/whatever Mandate/Swayal from Seswatha's Heart. Or perhaps there is something more to Achamian's "Prophet of the Past" status.
Nope. And if I recall correctly from our Skype conversations H and Blackstone were both particularly miffed that Achamian doesn't make a bigger deal in reacting to his dreams in TGO.
Lol. Qirri. It's a hell of a drug.
Oh, indeed I was, the dream here is so profound, it is absurd, yet Akka fails to even reminisce on it after.
Lol.
I don't particularly like the idea that Kellhus sent the Prophecy back to Celmomas, but I don't see any other possibility. If that is true, then Kellhus is the author of his own Fate, which really makes no sense.
Well... time paradoxes abound?
But I do think there are two possibilities aside: either Kellhus is god-entangled with Gilgoal (as he declared in TTT) OR Gilgoal is trying to warn Celmomas/Seswatha of the World's End (rather than its saviour as the tragic Mandate have long assumed).
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Well... time paradoxes abound?
But I do think there are two possibilities aside: either Kellhus is god-entangled with Gilgoal (as he declared in TTT) OR Gilgoal is trying to warn Celmomas/Seswatha of the World's End (rather than its saviour as the tragic Mandate have long assumed).
Unless of course that isn't Gilgaol at all, but is Ajolki just messing with things, as per usual?
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Well... time paradoxes abound?
But I do think there are two possibilities aside: either Kellhus is god-entangled with Gilgoal (as he declared in TTT) OR Gilgoal is trying to warn Celmomas/Seswatha of the World's End (rather than its saviour as the tragic Mandate have long assumed).
Unless of course that isn't Gilgaol at all, but is Ajolki just messing with things, as per usual?
Lol. Truth.
I don't buy that Ajokli is pretending to be Gilgaol but I will accept that Gilgaol is also Ajokli - I realize it's a strange distinction to make (for the reasons of "the Four-Horned Brother" possibly reflecting Gilgaol's crown and his sibling status to Yatwer and that Ajokli finds Murder Most Holy and Gilgaol is the God of Death).
I don't know :).
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I know that I've been a stout defender of Seswatha as the man behind the scenes. As TAE has progressed, I am almost entirely certain that Anagke is behind Akka's dream, along with Akka and Mimara's journey. Mimara has a great quote about it in the beginning of the first Ishual chapter. I'll see if I can find it. I believe "God-entaglement" is abound in TAE. See, a God would be the perfect persona to make Akka a prophet of the past, as Anagke can see all of time.
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Nope. And if I recall correctly from our Skype conversations H and Blackstone were both particularly miffed that Achamian doesn't make a bigger deal in reacting to his dreams in TGO.
Lol. Qirri. It's a hell of a drug.
Oh, indeed I was, the dream here is so profound, it is absurd, yet Akka fails to even reminisce on it after.
He does think of it though, later on in the chapter he thinks what it means to dream it now from the high kings eyes just when he is deciding to kill the Dunyain etc. seemed quite frantic about it.
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I know that I've been a stout defender of Seswatha as the man behind the scenes. As TAE has progressed, I am almost entirely certain that Anagke is behind Akka's dream, along with Akka and Mimara's journey. Mimara has a great quote about it in the beginning of the first Ishual chapter. I'll see if I can find it. I believe "God-entaglement" is abound in TAE. See, a God would be the perfect persona to make Akka a prophet of the past, as Anagke can see all of time.
Mimara states in the book she "knows now" he is a prophet of the past. So he is entangled in some way.
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Following this logic, and Kellhus' interpretation that prophets bring word of man to the gods (and not vice-versa), would this not mean the gods are trying to learn of the past they couldn't see in the First Apocalypse? One of them, maybe Anagke, is using Akka as an informant of sorts through his dreams, using his viewpoint to show them what they missed. Can gods see the dreams of men?
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Following this logic, and Kellhus' interpretation that prophets bring word of man to the gods (and not vice-versa), would this not mean the gods are trying to learn of the past they couldn't see in the First Apocalypse? One of them, maybe Anagke, is using Akka as an informant of sorts through his dreams, using his viewpoint to show them what they missed. Can gods see the dreams of men?
I was going to add a bit on to the end of my post how Akka is bringing word of the past to the gods and mimara the present. Cants of calling need you to be asleep due to mechanics of being closer/nearer to the outside while sleeping. So that would be the best time for the outside to look in so to speak.
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Following this logic, and Kellhus' interpretation that prophets bring word of man to the gods (and not vice-versa), would this not mean the gods are trying to learn of the past they couldn't see in the First Apocalypse? One of them, maybe Anagke, is using Akka as an informant of sorts through his dreams, using his viewpoint to show them what they missed. Can gods see the dreams of men?
That's a hell of a thought, Somnambulist.
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Following this logic, and Kellhus' interpretation that prophets bring word of man to the gods (and not vice-versa), would this not mean the gods are trying to learn of the past they couldn't see in the First Apocalypse? One of them, maybe Anagke, is using Akka as an informant of sorts through his dreams, using his viewpoint to show them what they missed. Can gods see the dreams of men?
I like it Som. One question though, why or how is he gettting the different perspectives if Akka is the one delivering the dreams to the Gods? Could Seswatha still be in on it?
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Following this logic, and Kellhus' interpretation that prophets bring word of man to the gods (and not vice-versa), would this not mean the gods are trying to learn of the past they couldn't see in the First Apocalypse? One of them, maybe Anagke, is using Akka as an informant of sorts through his dreams, using his viewpoint to show them what they missed. Can gods see the dreams of men?
I like it Som. One question though, why or how is he gettting the different perspectives if Akka is the one delivering the dreams to the Gods? Could Seswatha still be in on it?
It wasn't a full-blown theory so much as an inkling of an idea. I'll need to think about it a little more. Maybe Seswatha is using Akka to deliver the dreams to the gods. Maybe he (Seswatha) is the one trying to show the gods what they missed in the FA. Trying to get them involved in the SA? Dunno.
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Following this logic, and Kellhus' interpretation that prophets bring word of man to the gods (and not vice-versa), would this not mean the gods are trying to learn of the past they couldn't see in the First Apocalypse? One of them, maybe Anagke, is using Akka as an informant of sorts through his dreams, using his viewpoint to show them what they missed. Can gods see the dreams of men?
I like it Som. One question though, why or how is he gettting the different perspectives if Akka is the one delivering the dreams to the Gods? Could Seswatha still be in on it?
It wasn't a full-blown theory so much as an inkling of an idea. I'll need to think about it a little more. Maybe Seswatha is using Akka to deliver the dreams to the gods. Maybe he (Seswatha) is the one trying to show the gods what they missed in the FA. Trying to get them involved in the SA? Dunno.
I need full-blown theories, Som.
No half-ass theories on the Slog!
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Following this logic, and Kellhus' interpretation that prophets bring word of man to the gods (and not vice-versa), would this not mean the gods are trying to learn of the past they couldn't see in the First Apocalypse? One of them, maybe Anagke, is using Akka as an informant of sorts through his dreams, using his viewpoint to show them what they missed. Can gods see the dreams of men?
I like it Som. One question though, why or how is he gettting the different perspectives if Akka is the one delivering the dreams to the Gods? Could Seswatha still be in on it?
It wasn't a full-blown theory so much as an inkling of an idea. I'll need to think about it a little more. Maybe Seswatha is using Akka to deliver the dreams to the gods. Maybe he (Seswatha) is the one trying to show the gods what they missed in the FA. Trying to get them involved in the SA? Dunno.
I need full-blown theories, Som.
No half-ass theories on the Slog!
Meh. There's a lot to be said for half-assery. :P
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Following this logic, and Kellhus' interpretation that prophets bring word of man to the gods (and not vice-versa), would this not mean the gods are trying to learn of the past they couldn't see in the First Apocalypse? One of them, maybe Anagke, is using Akka as an informant of sorts through his dreams, using his viewpoint to show them what they missed. Can gods see the dreams of men?
I like it Som. One question though, why or how is he gettting the different perspectives if Akka is the one delivering the dreams to the Gods? Could Seswatha still be in on it?
It wasn't a full-blown theory so much as an inkling of an idea. I'll need to think about it a little more. Maybe Seswatha is using Akka to deliver the dreams to the gods. Maybe he (Seswatha) is the one trying to show the gods what they missed in the FA. Trying to get them involved in the SA? Dunno.
I need full-blown theories, Som.
No half-ass theories on the Slog!
Meh. There's a lot to be said for half-assery. :P
Lol - can't say the Second Apocalypse forum doesn't at least try to half-ass it.
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Following this logic, and Kellhus' interpretation that prophets bring word of man to the gods (and not vice-versa), would this not mean the gods are trying to learn of the past they couldn't see in the First Apocalypse? One of them, maybe Anagke, is using Akka as an informant of sorts through his dreams, using his viewpoint to show them what they missed. Can gods see the dreams of men?
I like it Som. One question though, why or how is he gettting the different perspectives if Akka is the one delivering the dreams to the Gods? Could Seswatha still be in on it?
I'm wondering if the Grasping is not what we think it is. Maybe the Mandate aren't connecting with a thing (Seswatha's soul), they are connecting with a conduit to the Outside. Akka can dream other (dead) people's perspectives because Seswatha is connecting Akka to particular damned souls. That is, Seswatha's soul might stradle both worlds like the soul in the Amiolas.
Also, I don't know if I had ever realized it before, but after Akka has the Nau-Cayuti/Shauriatus dream, does he act like it's news about Shauriatus physical state? Makes me wonder if Seswatha only ever came in contact with a battle-synthese.
Other explanations for Akka's non-Seswatha dreams: straigh up a god is sending them (Akka is somebody's white-luck or something), Kellhus is just making up shit and sending it to Akka (big revelation on the way that Akka got told huge lies), Old Moe is sending made up dreams, the physical object known as Seswatha's heart is actually several hearts fused to look like one (Seswatha's, Celmomas', NC's, and probably Cujara's too), Seswatha did something to absorb the dreams of the other guys and so Akka is experiencing the memory of Seswatha's experiencing those dreams.
I wonder if any of the nonmen tried something like the Grasping to hold their souls together?
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I wonder if any of the nonmen tried something like the Grasping to hold their souls together?
I was wondering about that. The Heart/Dreams are clearly a way to store memories outside someone's mind. If you can do that, you could just stick a bunch of happy memories in a store and dream every night anew of your wives, daughters, and glory. If I understand how the process of becoming Erratic works, that should stave it off indefinitely.
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That was the Inverse Fire in the dream towards the end of the book, right?
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Also, I don't know if I had ever realized it before, but after Akka has the Nau-Cayuti/Shauriatus dream, does he act like it's news about Shauriatus physical state? Makes me wonder if Seswatha only ever came in contact with a battle-synthese.
Yeah, there's a discrepancy between Achamian's "learning how Shauriatas survived" in TGO and Serwa claiming that she's fought Shauriatas in Seswatha's Dreams in WLW.
I wonder if any of the nonmen tried something like the Grasping to hold their souls together?
I wonder if any of the nonmen tried something like the Grasping to hold their souls together?
I was wondering about that. The Heart/Dreams are clearly a way to store memories outside someone's mind. If you can do that, you could just stick a bunch of happy memories in a store and dream every night anew of your wives, daughters, and glory. If I understand how the process of becoming Erratic works, that should stave it off indefinitely.
I know someone has brought this up somewhere before on the forum as a possibility.
That was the Inverse Fire in the dream towards the end of the book, right?
That's the thought.
I brought up on the most recent Cast - which I promise is forthcoming - that either we're not supposed to know much, if anything, about the Inverse Fire within the main narrative OR Bakker is banking quite heavily on a piece of unreleased work that exists solely on his blog.
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That was the Inverse Fire in the dream towards the end of the book, right?
Ha! That hadn't occurred to me. The first time I read the end, I was struck by oddness of the phrase that hell had a wig. I wonder if there's anything more to that.
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I'd have to say what we seenis indeednthe IF. The Nonmen are transfixed by it, IF, a fire on the ceiling. What drove the Nonmen to the deeps of the Mansions? The Starving Sky.
Here's my deal, I thinks it's a definite goad. As others have pointed out that what the ceiling of that room is wasn't when the Ark isn't sitting on the angle it is. Could just be a huge computer screen. It's a goad to the Nonmen because of the Starving Sky and it's why it transfixed them so. The nameless wretch barely remarks on it, because of not having the same beliefs as the Nonmen. Goad. Goad all the way.
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I'd have to say what we seenis indeednthe IF. The Nonmen are transfixed by it, IF, a fire on the ceiling. What drove the Nonmen to the deeps of the Mansions? The Starving Sky.
Here's my deal, I thinks it's a definite goad. As others have pointed out that what the ceiling of that room is wasn't when the Ark isn't sitting on the angle it is. Could just be a huge computer screen. It's a goad to the Nonmen because of the Starving Sky and it's why it transfixed them so. The nameless wretch barely remarks on it, because of not having the same beliefs as the Nonmen. Goad. Goad all the way.
Oh I hadn't thought of it--the Inverse Fire was maybe just Regular Fucked Up Fire before the Ark crashed.
But MSJ, you've got me thinking--I guess I assumed that the IF was an upside down flame, but maybe it's reversed in some other way? Instead of bright fire, it's dark. Instead of hot, it's cold. In fact, whatever the IF is, maybe it's just a really striking manifestation of the Void, The Starving Sky, The Emptiness, whatevs.
Poor Earwa, dangling between The Void and Hell. Pick one: consuming meaninglessness and consuming meaningingness.
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Well, we did see a glimpse (presumably) of the Inverse Fire. Kind of seemed bright and flickering like regular fire. I still think it has to do with the fact that it doesn't consume you though.
It's interesting, because in the Judaeo-Christian sense, Hell is below you and Heaven above, but on Earwa, Hell is above you and something like Oblivion is below?
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Well, we did see a glimpse (presumably) of the Inverse Fire. Kind of seemed bright and flickering like regular fire. I still think it has to do with the fact that it doesn't consume you though.
It's interesting, because in the Judaeo-Christian sense, Hell is below you and Heaven above, but on Earwa, Hell is above you and something like Oblivion is below?
Exactly. In the Boatman's songs we hear him refer to the Starving Sky. And, that's why the Nonmen dug out Mansions, to escape it.
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Exactly. In the Boatman's songs we hear him refer to the Starving Sky. And, that's why the Nonmen dug out Mansions, to escape it.
Indeed, which brings up an interesting though we've had before. Is there really Salvation? Is there really a Heaven in Earwa? Perhaps not. The Nonmen were perhaps right, the only choices are Damnation or Oblivion.
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Didn't Bakker himself mention three options in some long ago interview?
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I got the impression that "salvation" was just when the god you worshipped just treats you marginally less shittily than the "damned" ones.
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Based on some phrasing of Aurang my belief is that there is salvation where the noble/moral and self-sacrificing get to enjoy themselves, but that is just another spectrum of emotions for Gods to feed on. Spices essentially for the wheat and meat.
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There is Salvation, Koringhus found it and Mimara is Holy. Kellhus, I believe is fighting for the Salvation of Earwa. Or, at the very least, to end damnation.
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There is Salvation, Koringhus found it and Mimara is Holy.
That would mean the Absolute is Salvation and therefore holy.
I'm inclined to agree, since Korringhus, the boy (referred to as the most blessed fraction on page 408. Italics are not mine) and the hundredth stone must be linked to Kellhus somehow.
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About the dreams - And why why are seeing perspectives outside of Seswatha in TGO - I'm currently re-reading TJE, and Akka actually has his first dream from a 3rd person point of view.
(where the Wracu are attacking the library, and suddenly Akka is dreaming from a more omniscient point of view, wondering where Seswatha is)
So I didn't realize it during my first read, but these non-Seswatha dreams are nothing new.
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Yeah they're new to this 'trilogy'. Do ye think Seswatha is the cause of these new visions and he has a plan, or something else? I just assumed it was Seswatha's doing the whole time but it could easily be someone else.
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Well, clear back in TDTCB in the first dream we ever see, Akka sees his self in the mirror instead of Seswatha. And, while he notes there are discrepancies in the Dreams, that he'd never experienced or heard of something like that (in the Slog of Slog thread I quote it and there is discussion on it).
From the Bakker thread he made at Westeros, someone suggested when Kellhus spoke to Seswatha in TWP to gain access to the Gnosis, that maybe he might be manipulating the Dreams, Bakker gave a wink emoji. Which if that is the case, would be disappointing. I don't like that Kellhus and no one else is involved in these events. I want something to be outside his control. But, oh well, it is what it is.
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Yeah, that was me. I've always thought this was at play.
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Yeah, that was me. I've always thought this was at play.
Yea, it's debated about a lot. Its makes sense, and I can see where there is a reason for it, Kellhus guiding Akka where he needs him. As I said before, I always hoped that there was an element, besides the Consult or 100, outside of Kellhus's control. I guess there is....Cnaüir. And, I can still him being bit of a wild card in what role he ultimately plays. Anyhow, Bakker's wink sure does feel as good as confirmation to me that Kellhus is manipulating the dreams.
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Bakker has said elsewhere that there are some secrets he just won't talk about, the kellhus/akka hypnosis thing is one of them. I'd not read to far into a winky face.
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So much of the plot goes over my head, but I wonder where exactly do the Seswatha dreams come from? Has this been explained? I know Mimara says something about the relevancy of time, compared to what he has dreamed, (Akka meets Koringhus and dreams of being Celmomas.)
I think Golgotterath is the location of the dreams. Perhaps the Consult have somehow kept alive Seswatha or Nau-Cayuti and the closer a mandate schoolmen, they are able to reach them through dreams. This would explain why Achamian experienced so many differences in the dreams on the frontier so far removed from Atyersus.
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So much of the plot goes over my head, but I wonder where exactly do the Seswatha dreams come from? Has this been explained? I know Mimara says something about the relevancy of time, compared to what he has dreamed, (Akka meets Koringhus and dreams of being Celmomas.)
I think Golgotterath is the location of the dreams. Perhaps the Consult have somehow kept alive Seswatha or Nau-Cayuti and the closer a mandate schoolmen, they are able to reach them through dreams. This would explain why Achamian experienced so many differences in the dreams on the frontier so far removed from Atyersus.
The Dreams of Mandate Schoolmen come from the ritual called "The Grasping". It involves Seswatha's shriveled up heart. As for Akka's dreams that make him a Prophet of the Past, well your guess is as good as any.